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Fri Jul 13, 2012, 11:25 AM

EXCLUSIVE: NRA Threatens Senators Who Support Campaign Finance Disclosure

Source: Think Progress

EXCLUSIVE: NRA Threatens Senators Who Support Campaign Finance Disclosure
By Josh Israel on Jul 13, 2012 at 11:19 am

NRA Lobbyist Chris W. Cox

In a letter opposing the DISCLOSE Act of 2012 — a bill to allow citizens to know what corporations and wealthy donors are paying for the “independent expenditure” attack ads enabled by the 5-4 Citizens United ruling — the National Rifle Association (NRA) is warning Senators it will score the issue in its legislative scorecard for this Congress.

The NRA opposes the measure — arguing that its “provisions require organizations to turn membership and donor lists over to the government” and would unconstitutionally abridge the right of citizens “to speak and associate privately and anonymously.” The legislation would merely require groups that opt to run outside political ads to tell voters which donors funded those efforts. By setting up a separate bank account for independent political spending, a group like the NRA would be able to keep its membership list private and would need only disclose the large money donors paying for the group’s campaign ads. Far from being unconstitutional, this sort of disclosure was explicitly endorsed in Justice Anthony Kennedy’s Citizens United majority opinion as “the less-restrictive alternative to more comprehensive speech regulations.”

In 2010, after supporters of the DISCLOSE Act agreed to exempt just the NRAfrom the bill, the group dropped its opposition. Now, without those special protections in the 2012 version, the group is taking no chances and is issuing a strong message to any Senator who might support political transparency. The NRA letter warns:


Due to the importance of the fundamental speech and associational rights of the National Rifle Association’s four million members, and considering the blatant attack on those rights that S. 3369 represents, we strongly oppose the DISCLOSE Act and will consider votes on this legislation in future candidate evaluations.




Read more: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/07/13/516229/exclusive-nra-threatens-senators-who-support-campaign-finance-disclosure/

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Reply EXCLUSIVE: NRA Threatens Senators Who Support Campaign Finance Disclosure (Original post)
kpete Jul 2012 OP
sinkingfeeling Jul 2012 #1
kestrel91316 Jul 2012 #27
Nancy Waterman Jul 2012 #33
LineLineReply !
Bozita Jul 2012 #56
Canuckistanian Jul 2012 #95
lostnote12 Jul 2012 #103
LineLineReply .
myrna minx Jul 2012 #117
PavePusher Jul 2012 #162
permatex Jul 2012 #163
MrMickeysMom Jul 2012 #167
trumad Jul 2012 #2
wordpix Jul 2012 #7
siligut Jul 2012 #109
hack89 Jul 2012 #165
wordpix Aug 2012 #174
MrMickeysMom Jul 2012 #168
liberal N proud Jul 2012 #3
boomerbust Jul 2012 #4
brentspeak Jul 2012 #5
permatex Jul 2012 #122
brentspeak Jul 2012 #137
permatex Jul 2012 #139
brentspeak Jul 2012 #169
permatex Jul 2012 #170
onehandle Jul 2012 #6
hack89 Jul 2012 #8
NickB79 Jul 2012 #11
atreides1 Jul 2012 #23
hack89 Jul 2012 #25
xtraxritical Jul 2012 #42
hack89 Jul 2012 #44
xtraxritical Jul 2012 #90
safeinOhio Jul 2012 #93
hack89 Jul 2012 #94
safeinOhio Jul 2012 #115
hack89 Jul 2012 #125
wordpix Jul 2012 #128
wordpix Jul 2012 #126
bupkus Jul 2012 #9
hack89 Jul 2012 #12
bupkus Jul 2012 #15
hack89 Jul 2012 #16
Hoyt Jul 2012 #19
bupkus Jul 2012 #43
hack89 Jul 2012 #50
bupkus Jul 2012 #53
hack89 Jul 2012 #58
CreekDog Jul 2012 #72
permatex Jul 2012 #73
wordpix Jul 2012 #101
permatex Jul 2012 #105
hack89 Jul 2012 #74
CreekDog Jul 2012 #75
permatex Jul 2012 #76
CreekDog Jul 2012 #77
permatex Jul 2012 #79
CreekDog Jul 2012 #80
permatex Jul 2012 #81
CreekDog Jul 2012 #82
permatex Jul 2012 #83
hack89 Jul 2012 #84
CreekDog Jul 2012 #85
hack89 Jul 2012 #86
CreekDog Jul 2012 #87
hack89 Jul 2012 #88
DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2012 #150
hack89 Jul 2012 #151
bongbong Jul 2012 #96
hack89 Jul 2012 #98
permatex Jul 2012 #106
rl6214 Jul 2012 #110
permatex Jul 2012 #123
xtraxritical Jul 2012 #45
hack89 Jul 2012 #51
bupkus Jul 2012 #55
hack89 Jul 2012 #62
wordpix Jul 2012 #102
hack89 Jul 2012 #127
wordpix Jul 2012 #130
hack89 Jul 2012 #132
wordpix Aug 2012 #175
xtraxritical Jul 2012 #91
hack89 Jul 2012 #92
bongbong Jul 2012 #97
hack89 Jul 2012 #100
permatex Jul 2012 #107
rl6214 Jul 2012 #111
Tunkamerica Jul 2012 #113
permatex Jul 2012 #124
Tunkamerica Aug 2012 #171
hack89 Jul 2012 #129
permatex Jul 2012 #13
bupkus Jul 2012 #14
permatex Jul 2012 #17
Hoyt Jul 2012 #20
permatex Jul 2012 #21
Hoyt Jul 2012 #24
permatex Jul 2012 #26
bupkus Jul 2012 #36
permatex Jul 2012 #46
bupkus Jul 2012 #48
permatex Jul 2012 #61
xtraxritical Jul 2012 #47
permatex Jul 2012 #78
hack89 Jul 2012 #133
permatex Jul 2012 #28
donquijoterocket Jul 2012 #30
permatex Jul 2012 #31
hack89 Jul 2012 #40
xtraxritical Jul 2012 #49
hack89 Jul 2012 #54
bupkus Jul 2012 #64
hack89 Jul 2012 #66
permatex Jul 2012 #70
Hoyt Jul 2012 #138
permatex Jul 2012 #140
Hoyt Jul 2012 #142
permatex Jul 2012 #143
smirkymonkey Aug 2012 #173
bupkus Jul 2012 #37
permatex Jul 2012 #57
bupkus Jul 2012 #59
permatex Jul 2012 #63
bupkus Jul 2012 #67
permatex Jul 2012 #69
rl6214 Jul 2012 #112
bupkus Jul 2012 #35
permatex Jul 2012 #65
bupkus Jul 2012 #116
permatex Jul 2012 #131
bupkus Jul 2012 #118
permatex Jul 2012 #134
bupkus Jul 2012 #144
permatex Jul 2012 #145
bupkus Jul 2012 #147
permatex Jul 2012 #148
bupkus Jul 2012 #156
permatex Jul 2012 #158
bupkus Jul 2012 #119
bupkus Jul 2012 #120
bupkus Jul 2012 #121
fascisthunter Jul 2012 #149
permatex Jul 2012 #152
fascisthunter Jul 2012 #155
permatex Jul 2012 #160
Suji to Seoul Jul 2012 #10
bobthedrummer Jul 2012 #18
Mz Pip Jul 2012 #22
librechik Jul 2012 #29
annabanana Jul 2012 #32
47of74 Jul 2012 #34
hack89 Jul 2012 #41
Kolesar Jul 2012 #38
permatex Jul 2012 #68
DFW Jul 2012 #39
xtraxritical Jul 2012 #52
Turbineguy Jul 2012 #60
2ndAmForComputers Jul 2012 #71
Kolesar Jul 2012 #114
2ndAmForComputers Jul 2012 #166
secondvariety Jul 2012 #89
wordpix Jul 2012 #99
DBoon Jul 2012 #104
AJTheMan Jul 2012 #108
permatex Jul 2012 #135
permatex Jul 2012 #136
Odin2005 Jul 2012 #146
hack89 Jul 2012 #154
Odin2005 Jul 2012 #157
hack89 Jul 2012 #153
Tippy Jul 2012 #141
Jeff In Milwaukee Jul 2012 #159
permatex Jul 2012 #161
Jeff In Milwaukee Jul 2012 #164
Paladin Aug 2012 #172

Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 11:27 AM

1. Ain't it funny that the RW demands citizens have photo ids and present them

to vote, but demand the people trying to buy our government be protected?

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 01:39 PM

27. +1 000 000 000 - hypocrisy is the name of the RW game.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 02:06 PM

33. Excellent point!!

Important connection there.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:57 PM

56. !

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 09:05 PM

95. Oh, yes

Scrutiny for thee, but not for me

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 11:04 PM

103. nice observation....

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 08:44 AM

117. .

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 02:04 PM

162. Arguably, the text of the Twenty-Sixth Amendment leaves the door open for positive identification...

 

for voting.

The First, not so much.

That said, I believe any political speech or funding needs to be publicly listed as to source. Sounds like Amendment time to me.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #162)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 02:08 PM

163. I agree

 

We need more transparency in Govt.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 15, 2012, 11:20 AM

167. Uh-OH!

Busted!


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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 11:27 AM

2. Sure looks like the NRA is trying to run the Country

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Response to trumad (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 11:45 AM

7. also appears they're trying to collect a nationwide "militia" for coups and such

Top donors will take over and decide on the president and cabinet

The "militia" will enforce the coup of the rich with their unabated guns.

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Response to wordpix (Reply #7)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 03:22 AM

109. Yes, something like this

Though it's not like our police and military are liberals.

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Response to wordpix (Reply #7)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 02:58 PM

165. NRA membership is a small fraction of America's gun owners

so where are you getting this militia nonsense from?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #165)

Sun Aug 5, 2012, 10:44 AM

174. purely observation

It just makes sense. The Second Amend. gives the right to bear arms based on, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State..."

So people organize militias, giving them the right to bear arms and "secure a free State."

You don't get that the RW "Obama is a tyrant" and "Obama wasn't born here" memes are tied to the NRA and "Second Amendment" groups? If O is a tyrant and an illegal occupier of the WH due to his "non-American" birth, the early phrases of the amendment give the NRA "the right" to assist self-styled "militias" to "secure a free State."

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Response to trumad (Reply #2)

Sun Jul 15, 2012, 11:22 AM

168. Well... if not run it...

...then, hold it up against the wall with a sawed off shotgun pointed up our collective asses.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 11:28 AM

3. And we thought we got rid of organize crime

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 11:32 AM

4. All the coward blue dogs

Will be blowing the NRA again, just like the Holder vote.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 11:43 AM

5. Sounds like the NRA has something to hide.

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #5)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 09:19 AM

122. No more than the ACLU

 

which also opposes this legislation.

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Response to permatex (Reply #122)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 10:22 AM

137. Is the ACLU also threatening to "take down" senators who vote for the Disclose Act?

I predict 'crickets'.

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #137)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 10:35 AM

139. Your predictions suck, don't buy lottery tickets.

 

they're working behind the scenes to pressure their supporters to vote against this.
They have their way, the NRA has their way of doing things.
This shit has been going on in DC since the beginning of politics.

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Response to permatex (Reply #139)

Sun Jul 15, 2012, 04:19 PM

169. Who in Congress is lobbied by the ACLU?

Who are the ACLU's "supporters" in Congress who are being pressured to vote against the DISCLOSE Act?

By the way -- when are you going to answer my initial question? Is the ACLU also threatening to "take down" senators who vote for the Disclose Act?

You're right -- I shouldn't have predicted "crickets", but manufactured B.S.

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Response to brentspeak (Reply #169)

Sun Jul 15, 2012, 07:36 PM

170. Oh don't give me this crap

 

the ACLU lobbies against laws it doesn't like also, they're just not as obvious as the NRA. Everyone does it. I dislike and distrust the NRA, I'm more in tune with the SAF, but back to it, all the NRA is doing is representing their members, just like the ACLU.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 11:45 AM

6. The National Republican Association painting 'targets' on those friendly to openness?

Whoda thunk it?

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 11:56 AM

8. Amazing - the NRA and the ACLU agree on something.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #8)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 12:15 PM

11. Damn, that's amazing. nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #8)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 01:33 PM

23. So

The ACLU loves to plant the seeds for its own destruction...especially when they support a group that can't wait to gut them like a deer!

Does this mean that the ACLU also agrees with Citizens United and that cash is a form of free speech?

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #23)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 01:37 PM

25. The ACLU agrees with Citizens United

Section 203 of the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 prohibits unions and corporations (both for-profit and non-profit) from engaging in “electioneering communications.” The legislative definition of an “electioneering communication” was upheld by the Supreme Court in 2003 and then substantially narrowed by the Supreme Court in 2007. In scheduling this case for reargument, the Court specifically requested briefs on whether section 203 should now be struck down as facially unconstitutional. The ACLU has consistently taken the position that section 203 is facially unconstitutional under the First Amendment because it permits the suppression of core political speech, and our amicus brief takes that position again.


A legitimate concern over the influence of "big money" in politics has led some to propose a constitutional amendment to reverse the Citizens United decision. The ACLU will firmly oppose any constitutional amendment that would limit the free speech clause of the First Amendment.


http://www.aclu.org/free-speech/campaign-finance-reform

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Response to hack89 (Reply #25)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:46 PM

42. The average American, including myself, does not understand how throwing money around

 

is equivalent to free speech. Money should be removed, some how, from politics entirely.

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Response to xtraxritical (Reply #42)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:48 PM

44. I agree. Just pointing out what the ACLU thinks. nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #44)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 07:52 PM

90. I've always greatly admired the ACLU but this time I'm speachless. I just don't see their point.

 

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Response to hack89 (Reply #44)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 08:14 PM

93. I'd like to point out how the NRA thinks.

NRA spokesperson and member of the Board of Directors, speaking out in a terrorist manner.

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #93)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 08:46 PM

94. So Ted Nugent is a douche - is it a big shock? nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #94)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 07:01 AM

115. Does that make the membership that

elected him the same?

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Response to safeinOhio (Reply #115)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 09:35 AM

125. Go ask them. nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #25)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 09:39 AM

128. WTF? CU is free speech and disclosing donors is not free speech? ACLU, consider this donor

off your list forever.



That is a nutty insane position.

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #23)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 09:36 AM

126. apparently, ACLU has been taken over by the Reich Wing

I would NEVER support this group EVER if it doesn't renege on this ridiculous stance.

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Response to kpete (Original post)


Response to bupkus (Reply #9)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 12:23 PM

12. By that standard any group is a terrorist organization. nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #12)


Response to bupkus (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 12:52 PM

16. Ok - so you simply render the term "terrorist" meaningless

by making the definition so expansive that it can fit any group.

The NRA does not fit the accepted definition of terrorist group by any stretch of the imagination.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #16)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 01:08 PM

19. NRA's board of directors and leaders sure look like a bunch of terrorists to me.

The act like it too.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #16)


Response to bupkus (Reply #43)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:53 PM

50. No - that's just your irrational paranoia.

they are just another group, one among many, with an agenda and the clout to influence congress.

If one or two wackoos is the best you have then you have nothing. How many pictures can you show me from the past 6 months of a guy with an assault rifle at a presidential event? Lets see the depth of this terrorist organization.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #50)


Response to bupkus (Reply #53)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 04:00 PM

58. So the end result of the NRA's agenda has been what exactly?

besides historically low levels of gun violence that is.

You need to put up some real facts. Some real numbers showing that all this "incitement" has created a real public harm. Less hyperbole and more statistics would be a good start. You do have some actual facts don't you?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #58)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 04:47 PM

72. More unstable people armed with guns and fewer things stopping them

To most of us that's a bad thing.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #72)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 04:51 PM

73. And yet crime levels are falling

 

Why is that?
Can you provide a link to the "more unstable people armed with guns and fewer things stopping them" article please?

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Response to permatex (Reply #73)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 11:02 PM

101. the reasons are many & complex, but usually have to do with community policing & social programs

operated with community input in poor and crime-ridden communities. Also, public schools now have psychological counselors, college counselors, social workers, after school programs including tutoring, in-school tutoring, and other services for children/teens. There are also good educational programs in correctional facilities.

Nothing I've read (and due to my job, I've read a lot) attributes the drop in crime to increased gun ownership.

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Response to wordpix (Reply #101)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 11:57 PM

105. Let me rephrase my statement.

 

I agree that there are many reasons for the drop in crime rates, the boomer's aging, better policing, to name a couple. What I meant was that more guns does not=more crime, but at the same time more guns does not mean less crime.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #72)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 05:09 PM

74. And this has created more shootings and deaths .... oh wait.

it looks more like your irrational fear of guns then anything else. Not a single hard fact just unfocused fear.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #74)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 05:42 PM

75. fearing a gun is rational

anyone who tells you not to fear a deadly weapon is irrational.

and you spend all day doing that here.

by the way, thanks for spending so much time advocating for liberal causes here at DU.

or was that someone else?

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #75)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 05:46 PM

76. I don't fear firearms.

 

I respect them and what they can do if used irresponsibly. Why would you fear an inanimate object?

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Response to permatex (Reply #76)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 05:50 PM

77. snooze



don't fear a gun. right, got it.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #77)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 05:54 PM

79. Hey, fear them if thats what floats your boat

 

I've been around them all my life, no fear of them, just respect them.

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Response to permatex (Reply #79)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 05:56 PM

80. why do you take offense at the simple word choice about an inanimate object?

afraid of hurting its feelings?

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #80)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 06:00 PM

81. I'm not taking offense over a simple word, all I said was why would someone fear an

 

inanimate object?

How can you hurt an inanimate objects feelings?

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Response to permatex (Reply #81)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 06:03 PM

82. Your concern suggests you do care

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #82)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 06:09 PM

83. where did I say I care?

 

Last edited Sat Jul 14, 2012, 09:27 AM - Edit history (1)

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #75)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 06:19 PM

84. So now we go to the personal attacks

because that is all you have left.

Don't forget - you have never been safer. Put aside your fear and enjoy life.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #84)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 06:30 PM

85. Yes, I am safer and I don't have a gun

and I'm in California, where they are heavily regulated.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #85)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 06:33 PM

86. Fortunately California is coming around

the legal tide is definitely against them. But you will still be safe - just like every other American.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #86)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 06:47 PM

87. look, you care about guns and tax cuts way more than i do

i don't spend all my time or even a big chunk of my time on guns.

there are poor people to worry about and civil rights being denied to people and children that are harmed by environmental problems and poverty that affects them and often their mothers far out of proportion to their numbers.

and those are the issues i spend the most time on here, because that's what most of us do.

but some people spend almost all their time here advocating for guns and relaxed gun laws and complaining about taxes.


i'm not one of them.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #87)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 06:49 PM

88. I don't support tax cuts

I want the Bush tax cuts to expire.

I defend gun rights because there are many gun owning Democrats and I refused to be marginalized here.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #88)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 12:28 PM

150. You're supporting a republican thug organization

Who are you anyway?

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #150)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 12:38 PM

151. Just a pro-RKBA Democrat

one of many.

I am no longer a member of the NRA due to their politics. I do, however, support the 2A and the RKBA.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #58)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:47 PM

96. Here we go again

 

> besides historically low levels of gun violence that is.

The gun-relgionist whom I've corrected many times makes the same lie.

Gun religionists must worship their Precious!

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Response to bongbong (Reply #96)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:52 PM

98. You are the liar

Last edited Sat Jul 14, 2012, 09:43 AM - Edit history (1)

I have said many time - more guns do not mean lower crime. All we can say is the gun violence is down despite more guns. The reasons are many and complex.


Every time you pop up with your lie about my position. I correct you. And you pop and lie again.


Please stop lying about my position.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #96)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 12:00 AM

106. I'll second what hack said.

 

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Response to bongbong (Reply #96)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 03:34 AM

110. Most anti gun zealots I've seen here resort to making up names, usually pretty juvenile ones at that

 

You don't fail to live up to that expectation.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #58)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 09:24 AM

123. H/she ain't going to put up some real facts

 

I asked several time for links to what H/She was claiming and all I got was more hyperbole and insults, which is the usual case when there is no evidence of a statement made.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #16)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:49 PM

45. They willingly pump guns into the economy and don't care who they are arming.

 

They then threaten and intimidate our legislatures. They sound like the most sophisticated terrorist group ever. Fuck the NRA.

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Response to xtraxritical (Reply #45)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:55 PM

51. And the result of all those guns is what exactly?

besides record low levels of gun violence that is?

You don't like guns. Got it. Just remember that you have never been safer.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #51)


Response to bupkus (Reply #55)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 04:02 PM

62. There has been a 50 percent decrease in murder and manslaughter deaths since 1991

I thought epidemics killed more and more people, not the opposite.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl01.xls

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Response to hack89 (Reply #62)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 11:04 PM

102. again, the drop in these crimes has more to do with increased community policing than with more guns

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Response to wordpix (Reply #102)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 09:37 AM

127. Never said that more guns were the cause

just pointing out two things:

1. Despite popular beliefs, America has been experiencing decreasing gun violence for 3 decades.

2. More guns and laxer gun laws did not lead to more gun violence

That is all.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #127)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 09:41 AM

130. I'm not sure the drop in crime relates to violent crimes with deadly weapons

You need to separate out generic "crime" with "use of deadly weapons crimes" to make such a comparison.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #132)

Sun Aug 5, 2012, 10:55 AM

175. most urban public schools now have social workers & after-school programs. Special ed also

provides at-risk students with more individualized instruction and adult interaction. As long as these programs are in place and reasonably good, students recognize there are caring adults around them at school, if not at home. They (the students) tend to make better choices b/c they have mentors steering them to productive options and they understand crime is not the best one.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #51)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 07:54 PM

91. Are you kidding? I suggest you take the time to view Bowling for Columbine.

 

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Response to xtraxritical (Reply #91)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 08:01 PM

92. I would rather look at real DOJ crime statistics. nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #92)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:49 PM

97. You've been corrected many times

 

about this lie of yours (the implication that more guns = more safety) yet you still keep repeating the lie.

You gun-religionists are a HOOT! I'm glad nobody at DU outside of the Dungeon takes you nuts seriously.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #97)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:53 PM

100. You are the liar.

I have never said more guns = more safety. All I have said is that gun violence is down despite more guns. That is the true and you know it.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #97)


Response to xtraxritical (Reply #45)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 03:36 AM

111. The NRA does NOT have a license to sell guns so please provide a link

 

showing where they are pumping these guns into. Do I have to get on a list to get a gun from the NRA? Are they free or at least discounted?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #16)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 05:48 AM

113. He didn't do that either. He said he thinks the NRA should be classified as

a terrorist organization. He didn't expand a definition, he didn't twist the constitution. He simply said what he said. Explain it to yourself however you see fit; but don't put words in people's mouths.

FBI def. of terrorism:

There is no single, universally accepted, definition of terrorism. Terrorism is defined in the Code of Federal Regulations as “the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives” (28 C.F.R. Section 0.85).

If you and a "/or" after 'force and' the NRA fits snugly within the definition.

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Response to Tunkamerica (Reply #113)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 09:34 AM

124. So surely you can prove your statement with a link

 

showing the NRA advocating violence against the govt. or the civilian population?
I've been all over the NRA website looking for just such a thing and damned if I can find it.
What, is it a super duper secret site that you have to have a special password for?
If so, PM me the password and I'll look at it.

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Response to permatex (Reply #124)

Sat Aug 4, 2012, 06:25 AM

171. did you misread my response?

nevermind you were kicked because yr a disruptor

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Response to Tunkamerica (Reply #113)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 09:41 AM

129. Except nothing the NRA has done fits any accepted definition of terrorism

not one thing.

There is no use of force and violence involved.

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Response to bupkus (Reply #9)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 12:26 PM

13. Why?

 

I abhor the NRA, but just because you don't like them doesn't mean they should be banned.
Are you sure you want to go down that road?
What happens when the R's get back in power?
Maybe they'll say the same thing about the ACLU, the SPLC, Planned Parenthood.
You see where this is going?

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Response to permatex (Reply #13)


Response to bupkus (Reply #14)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 12:52 PM

17. Who.

 

And as a terrorist Org.?
Why are they a terrorist org.?

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Response to permatex (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 01:18 PM

20. Look at their leadership -- Norquist, John Bolton, Ollie North, Teddy Nugent, Chuck Norris, Barr,

Joe Allbaugh

And worse:





http://www.meetthenra.org/sort-leaders

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 01:28 PM

21. They are dicks for sure

 

but how does that make the NRA a terror org.? And try to give and honest answer please.

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Response to permatex (Reply #21)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 01:36 PM

24. Literary and political license. Besides, the lethal weapons and laws they promote enable terrorists.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #24)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 01:39 PM

26. So tell me again

 

How does that make the NRA a terror org.?

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Response to permatex (Reply #26)


Response to bupkus (Reply #36)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:50 PM

46. Links please

 

I went to the NRA website and couldn't find anything like what you claim. Could you please post a link to what you claim?

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Response to permatex (Reply #46)


Response to bupkus (Reply #48)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 04:01 PM

61. Here's how it works

 

you made the accusations, you provide the proof.
Pretty simple.

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Response to permatex (Reply #26)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:51 PM

47. They arm anyone without regard, they intimadate our legislature, they are terrorists.

 

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Response to xtraxritical (Reply #47)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 05:51 PM

78. they arm anyone without regard.

 

Where do you people come up with this dribble?
The NRA doesn't arm anyone, they don't have a Class 1 FFL, so how can they arm anyone?
Perhaps you can provide the link to where I can get a gun from the NRA?

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Response to xtraxritical (Reply #47)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 09:51 AM

133. The NRA cannot legally sell firearms so how are they arming anyone? nt

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 01:41 PM

28. All I see here is a man holding a perfectly legal .50 cal. Barrett rifle.

 

Whats your point? Does that make him a terrorist?

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Response to permatex (Reply #28)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 01:58 PM

30. why

are.50 BMG caliber rifles legal? Who needs one and for what?

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Response to donquijoterocket (Reply #30)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 02:00 PM

31. Why shouldn't they be legal?

 

What does need have to do with it?
They sure are fun to shoot, but the ammo is expensive as hell.

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Response to donquijoterocket (Reply #30)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:40 PM

40. Need to turn that question around

what harm does that gun represent such that the state can restrict a civil liberty? Do you always take the side of state power and require that citizens justify their choices? What is wrong with the state having to show why such guns need to be banned?

You can start by documenting all the crime committed by 50 cal rifles.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #40)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:53 PM

49. Google Laurel Canyon B of A robbery.

 

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Response to xtraxritical (Reply #49)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:57 PM

54. So? Not a single mention of a .50 cal rifle.

that event was 15 years ago - is that the best you have?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #40)


Response to bupkus (Reply #64)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 04:08 PM

66. So you support citizens having to justify to the government the exercise of their rights?

you must have love the Patriot Act?

But tell me, if they are designed only to kill as many people as possible, why can't you document any deaths? Please fill free to provide some actual facts.

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Response to bupkus (Reply #64)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 04:26 PM

70. A Barrett is designed to kill as many as possible in a short time?

 

It's semi auto, you know, 1 trigger pull for each bullet. Please learn what your talking about.
Are you calling a fellow DU'er a closet terrorist.
That smacks of a TOS violation.

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Response to bupkus (Reply #64)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 10:27 AM

138. Today's Catch 22 ought to be: If one has really gotta have one for these things, they can't

because they don't have a healthy view of what it means to be part of modern society.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #138)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 10:51 AM

140. And you can prove this?

 

Or is this just another one of you "opinions"?

I want one and I have a very healthy view of modern society. I also don't live in a glass bubble like you seem to.

BTW, just for you Hoyt, I bought my Valmet Model 76 .223 cal. rifle yesterday and it's on it's way to a gun store in LV for p/u next week. I'm doing my part to make sure that America's firearm heritage marches on.

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Response to permatex (Reply #140)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 11:04 AM

142. Yes, I can. Let's start by you telling us why you want one of these things, and why you think

that your need to have something as destructive as this should trump society's best long-term interest.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #142)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 11:21 AM

143. Ok I'll play your little game for now

 

1. I want one because they're alot of fun to shoot, expensive, but fun.

2. When did we get a Dept. of Needs?

3. Anything can be destructive, from a sewing needle to a Nuclear Weapon.

4. It doesn't harm society if used legally and responsibly.

5. I asked for proof from you and, as usual, you failed to provide and then deflected.

6. What YOU think about legal gun owners/conceal carry is really irrelevant to my owning and/or carrying.

7. What YOU think about my wanting to own a .50 BMG is really irrelevant to my owning one.

8. Have I about covered it?

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #138)

Sun Aug 5, 2012, 10:08 AM

173. Winner!

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Response to permatex (Reply #28)


Response to bupkus (Reply #37)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:58 PM

57. I, again, went to the NRA website and, again, couldn't find anything like you claim.

 

Where does the NRA say that any lunatic can own a firearm? Are you aware that the NRA has been instrumental in helping pass alot of the gun control laws in this country?
Where are you getting your info? Brady or VPC?
BTW there is a Right to Keep and Bear Arms in this country, as evidenced by the 2A of the BoR.
Terrorist Org.-what a laugh.

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Response to permatex (Reply #57)


Response to bupkus (Reply #59)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 04:03 PM

63. So in other words

 

you have no proof of what you claim? Would that be correct?

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Response to permatex (Reply #63)


Response to bupkus (Reply #67)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 04:17 PM

69. So, again, in other words,

 

you have no proof, links or otherwise that the NRA is a terrorist org. do you? If you don't have proof, just admit it.

If the Govt. thought in any way that the NRA was a terror org., it would have been shut down along time ago.

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Response to bupkus (Reply #37)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 03:41 AM

112. Yeah, I've seen all of those news articles about the burglaries using .50 cals.

 

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Response to permatex (Reply #17)


Response to bupkus (Reply #35)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 04:07 PM

65. How do they inspire more hatred and violence then, say, Al Queda?

 

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Response to permatex (Reply #65)


Response to bupkus (Reply #116)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 09:45 AM

131. Do you have any idea how inaccurate the so called terrorist watch list is?

 

Ted Kennedy was on that watchlist.
Oh I get it I get it, you support the Patriot Act. You don't give a shit about due process do you?
Once your on that list, you have no recourse to prove that you don't belong, hell you don't even know your on the list until you try to board a plane, as in Kennedy's case, or try to buy a firearm, to name a couple of ways to find out.

You are making this far too easy.
Tell you what, why don't you pettition the govt to have the NRA added to the unconstitutional terror watchlist and see how far you get.

On edit: did you even read what you linked to? Are you even aware that every civil rights org. opposes the watch list?
So you support shit like the terror watch list?
If so, your in the wrong place, FR is down the street and to the Right.

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Response to permatex (Reply #65)


Response to bupkus (Reply #118)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 09:56 AM

134. And that means what?

 

So Teddy is a RW douchbag? How does that make the NRA a terrorist org.?
Your really flailing here.

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Response to permatex (Reply #134)


Response to bupkus (Reply #144)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 11:30 AM

145. So in other words

 

you cannot provide any PROOF that the NRA is a terrorist org.?

Dude, your making this way too easy.

BTW, your opinion of the NRA is an opinion only, doesn't mean it's true.
Sure, NRA sucks, doesn't make them a terror org. unless of course, you have evidence to back up your claim, if so, then contact the FBI with your evidence and demand an investigation.

Let us know how that works out for ya, OK?

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Response to permatex (Reply #145)


Response to bupkus (Reply #147)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 12:21 PM

148. Your using the terror watch list, which BTW, has been condemned by all civil rights groups,

 

to classify a legal org. supported by millions of people as a terror org. says all that I need to know about you. Thats why I refuse to take anything you say on this subject seriously.

You also seem to be willing to curb the 1A for people you don't like. Nugent is a RW douchbag, but he has the RIGHT to express his opinions as does the NRA however much we don't like it.

NRA=Terror Org. What a crock of shit.

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Response to permatex (Reply #148)


Response to bupkus (Reply #156)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 01:28 PM

158. Back atcha

 

Just because you and a tiny minority in the country think that, doesn't make it true much as you would like it to.
I think that your royally pissed off because gun rights are advancing in the country and your powerless to stop it.
Meanwhile support for gun control is dropping, as evidenced by the dramatic drop in support for a handgun ban:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/150341/record-low-favor-handgun-ban.aspx

Also violent crime is down sinc the 1960's:
https://www.hsdl.org/hslog/?q=node/6572
you can read it here.

Terror org. my ass.

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Response to permatex (Reply #65)


Response to permatex (Reply #65)


Response to permatex (Reply #65)


Response to permatex (Reply #65)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 12:28 PM

149. they feed terror and divisiveness against Americans themselves

are you blind? Do they not lobby for laws allowing gun manufacturers and dealers to sell more to people by making them think they NEED more guns? How's SYG laws helping to increase gun sales? Hmmmm.... who is telling the ignorant masses in America that Obama is going to take their guns away, creating a wave of gun sales?

They use terror.

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Response to fascisthunter (Reply #149)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 12:39 PM

152. Then I.m sure you've reported them to the FBI, amiright?

 

Funny thing is, most LEO's, Fed, state, and local use NRA trained firearms instructors. Police agencies around the country go to schools and use the NRA's Eddie Eagle safety program. They sure don't seem to think that the NRA is a terror org.

Your accusations that the NRA is a terror org. is your opinion which is a very minority opinion. The NRA itself has some pretty good programs, it's the NRA-ILA and the board thats bat shit crazy.

SYG laws increasing gun sales? Have a link to that?
Yeah the NRA saying that Obama is going to take your guns away is pure bullshit, but how does that classify them as a terror org?

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Response to permatex (Reply #152)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 12:47 PM

155. hahaha... keep lobbying for them

their day is numbered.

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Response to fascisthunter (Reply #155)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 01:37 PM

160. Their day is numbered?

 

Prove it. Show me a link that shows they are fading.

Why do you post lies about other DU'ers? Where am I lobbying for them. I've stated time and time again that I abhor them, that doesn't mean I'm lobbying for them. I just don't go along with the ridiculous notion that they are a terrorist org.

NRA has been around since the late 1800's, so you really think their days are numbered?
Why is it that gun control org. like the Brady's, VPC, MAIG, can't get anything passed? Why does their membership number in the hundreds instead of the millions like the NRA?
Because gun control groups like these went to far in their quest to have guns banned and their was a huge backlash from the public.
You may not like it, but thats the way it is.
NRA a terrorist org.? Yeah, right. There leadership are all RW douchbags for sure, but the NRA is not a terror org. in any way, shape or form.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 12:07 PM

10. Yet unions have to ensure all members support the union's position, if these GOP

idiots have their way, in order to donate openly. Meanwhile, their bosses can do it through the backdoor and no one can ask who let the clown out of the box?

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 12:54 PM

18. K&R n/t

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 01:30 PM

22. If money is speech

then I think we are all entitled to see who is speaking.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 01:56 PM

29. "we strongly support corruption of our elections and voter suppression"

sad how many will sign on for that agenda

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 02:05 PM

32. So it seems the NRA is pretty much the teabag militia. . .n/t

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Response to annabanana (Reply #32)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 02:10 PM

34. Yep

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Response to annabanana (Reply #32)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:42 PM

41. Good thing there are more non-NRA gun owners then NRA members

we can form our progressive militia if need be.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:18 PM

38. At least the RWers aren't phoning in death threats like they did during the "immigration debate"

During the bush regnecy

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #38)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 04:10 PM

68. Are you saying the NRA encouraged that?

 

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:20 PM

39. Oh, yeah, the NRA is a-gunnin' for ya. I know their current president.

You could not wish for an angrier, nastier, more arrogant right-wing ideologue than David Keane.
He is certainly made for the NRA, and they for him. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that
he is having the NRA make threats to congressmen who don't do as he says. He calls himself
"conservative," but he is anything but. He is a radical right-wing ideologue who no more qualifies
as "conservative" in his ways than a cement mixer qualifies as an airliner.

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Response to DFW (Reply #39)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 03:55 PM

52. Tell it DFW, amen.

 

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 04:01 PM

60. If somebody did shit like that during the Bush admin

They would have been listed as a Terrorist Organization.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 04:32 PM

71. PING NRA fans from the Gungeon.

Manifest thyselves.

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Response to 2ndAmForComputers (Reply #71)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 06:29 AM

114. be serious

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #114)

Sun Jul 15, 2012, 08:10 AM

166. Thou doth not liketh Ye Olde Butcherede English?

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 06:55 PM

89. The NRA

exists to promote the gun and ammo industry. That's it. They don't give a shit about anything but the Second Amendment and they only give a shit about that because it's profitable for the gun and ammo industry.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 10:52 PM

99. "blatant attack on ... rights [of NRA]" Really? Disclosing donors is freedom of speech!

NOT disclosing donors is preventing free speech.

Up is down, black is white, freedom of speech is keeping bribery hidden.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Jul 13, 2012, 11:33 PM

104. Now if CAIR had said something like this...

... what would be the media response?

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 12:35 AM

108. I don't get it. The NRA used to be a group for people who believed in Gun ownership.

Now it's just another wing of the GOP. I mean I support gun ownership and I generally agree with the NRA but this shit is getting ridiculous. Stop calling yourself the NRA if you're just an extension of the GOP. I mean, damn, do you not want any pro-gun Democrats?

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Response to AJTheMan (Reply #108)


Response to AJTheMan (Reply #108)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 10:21 AM

136. Interesting article from the WaPo. on NRA dem endorsements for the House races.

 

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Response to AJTheMan (Reply #108)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 12:03 PM

146. I think the NRA's tranformation occured in the early 90s...

...when the "Them Libruls in black UN helicopters are gonna come take our guns" BS popped up.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #146)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 12:42 PM

154. No - it was the AWB

greatest gift the NRA ever received.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #154)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 01:00 PM

157. Oh, I forgot about that!

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Response to AJTheMan (Reply #108)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 12:41 PM

153. Ironically, it was the gun controllers greatest victory that made the NRA what they are today

the AWB was the greatest gift the NRA ever got and they never looked back.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 10:58 AM

141. The NRA is going after Republican Debra Maggert from TN

I almost feel sorry for her they are pouring a lot of money into to deffeat her...http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/nra-finds-gop-lawmakers-resistant-gun-laws-16770939

Secondly I wonder if anyone has seen the NRA'S TV program on the election..I was channel surfering Thursday night and found it on the True TV channel...I watched for as long as I could take it...It was a real hit piece on Obama...the best way I can describe it was NASTY...I am not sure how long it was but over 30 minutes...If anyone else saw it let me know...I sat there not believing what I was hearing and crying...

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 01:29 PM

159. While it's far too late...

The whole Pro-Gun/Anti-Gun debate has already erupted, but it really should be noted that this isn't about guns. It's about campaign finance, and the fact the the NRA is weighing in on an issue that doesn't involve the Second Amendment but does, in fact, provide aid and comfort to the Republican Party is worth noting.

I've said for years that the NRA is not a gun rights organization. It's a gun industry lobbying organization. They've lobbied against making guns safer and more traceable (which hurts the corporate bottom line) and in favor of allowing guns to be sold in whatever venue and to whomever might happen to want to purchase one (which improves sales). Neither of these issues has an impact whatsoever on me, a hunter and owner of multiple firearms.

In fact, there's nothing the NRA has EVER done legislatively that provided even the slightest benefit to me as a gun owner. So their latest foray into electoral politics comes as no surprise. If the NRA comes out tomorrow in favor of banning abortion, it won't surprise me a bit.

They're simply an all-purpose, right-wing lobbying group.

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Response to permatex (Reply #161)

Sat Jul 14, 2012, 02:16 PM

164. As a hunter

These are not of the slightest interest to me.

Dove Hunting? Wolf Hunting? Yeah, I'm right on that.

And the third article would have opened up a game preserve to hunting. Why in the fuck would I support that? The purpose of a game preserve is to provide a sanctuary for wildlife where they're not subject to human predation. Part of conservation is making sure there's wildlife available to future generations of hunters, and game preserves play an important role in that. Of course, the NRA could not give two shits because they're interest is selling more guns.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Aug 4, 2012, 08:10 AM

172. And The NRA Is Just A Single-Issue Interest Group? Yeah, Right.

Play that tune one more time for us, Gun Enthusiasts---grim, ironic laughter is better than no laughter at all.

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