EU leaders 'not bluffing' over Brexit terms, warns Malta's PM

[inanna]

Source: BBC

7 minutes ago

EU leaders are not "bluffing" when they say the UK will be left without access to the single market when it leaves the bloc if there is no free movement of people, Malta's prime minister says.

Joseph Muscat, whose country assumes the EU's presidency in January, told the BBC "this is really and truly our position and I don't see it changing".

<snip>

Much political debate has focused on the possibility of a "soft" Brexit - the UK retaining some form of membership of the single market in exchange for conceding some control over immigration - and "hard Brexit" - leaving the single market but having fuller control over migration.

But Mr Muscat said the UK and EU needed to first reach agreement on a range of other details once Mrs. May triggers Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.


Read more: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38100561

[pbmus]

1. The rest of the world will be giving the same ultimatum to orange hair

Very very soon...

[Bad Dog]

2. He is just the latest in a long line of European ministers to say the same thing.

It's a right dog's breakfast. We have Tory ministers saying we can somehow negotiate some sort of bespoke Brexit because Britain's economy is just too powerful not to. There's Nigel Farage acting like he's won an election and warning of dire consequences if the 'will of the British people' isn't followed through. This same 'will of the British people' is cited by the gutterpress when they call judges enemies of the British people for insisting that parliament decides Brexit, not May using Royal prerogative.

These same papers are vehemently opposed to a second referendum when people will actually know what they'll be voting for. People were lied to, the biggest lie being that the money spent on EU membership would be spent on the NHS. That particular lie, or to use Farage speak mistake, was retracted on the first day after the vote. Then we've got bloody idiots on telly talking about how Brexit hasn't been as cataclysmic as was forecast, oblivious to the fact that Brexit hasn't happened.

Then the rise of the National Front in France means that the EU is in danger of collapse, so in order to stop France leaving they need to make Brexit as painful as possible. Yet we're all still believing Tory lies that we can ditch all the bad parts of the single market but keep the good bits.

It will get a lot worse before it gets better.

[randome]

3. Brexit and Trump's election are both powered by anti-globalism.

It's a collective primal fear of losing national identity. But despite that, in the end the planet will become more intertwined and more united. It's too bad people can't see the larger picture.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[yardwork]

4. What if Brexit and Trump's win we're powered by Putin because he wants to weaken everybody else?

[randome]

5. Always possible. But honestly, I don't think Putin is as smart as he thinks he is.

In that respect, he's a little like Trump.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[randome]

6. Actually, Putin's influence is all-too apparent.

But I think nationalism, driven by anti-globalism and intertwined with white identity politics, is more at the center of Trump's election.

It's never just one thing, although everyone seems vested in pointing to that one true thing as an explanation for why Trump won.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Cosmocat]

7. I would lean more to this reply than your first

IMO, the nod to white identity politics was the primary driver BY far for the shit fest on election day.

The dolts in this country have never been able to see past the ponds.

The only thing they "see" is all them there people taking their tax dollars, guys having sex with other guys, women they aren't fucking having sex with men other than themselves, transgenders having the temerity to go the bathroom, people not being the fake ass Christians they are, etc.

[randome]

9. And how do we deal with these dolts?

Wait for them to die out? I'm not being sarcastic, I honestly don't know what more we can do other than to keep pushing our principles to the fore. Equal opportunity for all. Be kind. Be generous.

Maybe pointing out that Republican values insist on these same things yet fail to adhere to them? I don't know. Having a charismatic leader like Obama would certainly help. As much as I supported Clinton, I pointed out early in the campaign that Obama sort of reset the bar for the kind of energetic, charismatic individual we need at the helm.

Instead we have a lazy blowhard named Trump.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Cosmocat]

11. I have no idea brother

Honestly, I don't think there is anything we can do.

We live in a country where 45% or so have totally rejected reality and see things only as they want to see them, and there is absolutely no telling them different.

There is about 10% that is muddled or confused, but leans toward believing or being comfortable with the insane shit Rs say and do more often than not.

And, then there is our 45% which has a romantic notion of that this country is or should be, but operates out of an honesty of thought that leaves us severely disadvantaged in dealing with the completely united and insanely hateful focus of the 45%.

I know SO many Rs who are otherwise decent and good people, but they have lost their damn minds about politics and government and there is nothing I can possibly say to change it.

It is truly like Zombies, once they get bitten its over.

[randome]

15. The Millennials are still the more progressive demographic.

We should focus on youth and energy for our coming candidates, Congressional and Presidential. It's not fair, it's not at all an objective tactic, and it may even be cruel, but now more than at any other time, I think we need to gracefully 'clear the court'.

The oldsters among us have served us well up to this point. It's time to reset the board and start anew. We are at the lowest point we can get when a blowhard like Trump can win an election.

Ms. Pelosi? Thank you for your service. But it's time to stand aside. Same for anyone else who's been in Congress for 10 years or more. It's time for them all to stand aside for the greater good.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Cosmocat]

17. I would echo that

I got in trouble here a couple of times for posting "the democrats don't stand for anything."

I never meant that we don't BELIEVE in things.

But, this party hasn't FOUGHT for anything in my entire adult life.

The only elections we have won nationally were 06 and 08, and those were anti-bush votes, and BHO carried a few seats with him in 12.

Other than that, it has been conservative creep.

The only real legislative thing democrats achieved was ACA, and they only managed to meekly pass a republican version of health care reform then woke up the next day and spent each and every day running from it.

Meanwhile, repubicans climb to the top of whatever insanely stupid hill they can come up with and fight tooth and nail to defend it each and every day.

BHO was so incredible, but outside of him you can count on one hand the number of Ds with two functioning gonads - Bernie, Warren, Franken ...

We are fucked for the next four years at least - so yeah, clear out the dead wood.

But, will we figure this out, will we play the long game like Rs have done since the 80s, will our voters get it?

[christx30]

20. I'm sure a lot of them also see the

premiums for their health insurance have more than doubled, and want someone to do something about that. They probably want to get back to the plans they want, and not be forced into something that's way more than what they need.

[yardwork]

8. It clear that there were many factors driving the voting pattern,

But we ignore Putin at our peril. It seems to me that he both exploits and creates nationalistic fervor. The last time nationalism swept the globe we got WWII and genocide.

[Cosmocat]

12. "We" are the only people who seem to give a shit about Putin

He is absolutely malevolent, and frankly MOST people in this country know it.

But, because he tipped the scales for the Rs, this country could give a shit.

THAT is how far gone we are.

[Bad Dog]

10. In your election perhaps.

He had very little to do with Brexit, he was used as a bogeyman by the remain campaign. This was more to do with the owners of tabloids who spouted a load of nonsense about immigrants. At the end of the day Brexit was about immigration.

[randome]

14. Our election was in large measure about immigration, too.

I think there are parallels. I don't think America operates in a vacuum, as much as we keep pushing the insipid idea that we are above all other nations. America and Europe are like two quantumly entangled particles. Whatever affects one affects the other even if we can't isolate the exact mechanisms at play.

Even if not true, it's a nice metaphor, right???

I think you're right, Putin's influence is over-rated. It's still there and he may pat himself on the back for his underhanded dealings (like a second-rate KGB janitor) but in the end, I think anti-globalism is still the main culprit for both Brexit and Trump.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Bad Dog]

16. Your immigration debate was mostly about illegal immigration.

Ours centred on legal EU migration which upset a lot of elderly people unused to hearing a foreign accent. This all goes back to Blair's decision to allow Polish workers into Britain when they still were not allowed into Germany and France. At the time the forecast amount of immigrants for Britain turned out to be the same as those who came to Southampton.

This situation didn't really change when they were allowed into the rest of the EU. If you were Polish where would you rather go, to the nearest country that also invaded you back in the 40s or a country with an established Polish population?

Areas like East Anglia with very little immigrant population became noticeably different. Urban areas, didn't change that much. The Brexiters are scared of modernity, mostly elderly and casually xenophobic, for them the EU meant being swamped by East Europeans.

Some concerns were legitimate, like lack of affordable housing and extra the strain on schools and hospitals but mostly it was plain old xenophobia.

[yardwork]

19. Who funded the Brexit campaign?

[Bad Dog]

22. Lots of different people including government money.

It's further complicated when you find out that there were three Brexit campaigns. One that was officially recognised and received state funding and two that didn't. There were also certain prominent millionaire donors as well.

The biggest factor was the rabid headlines of newspapers like the Express, Mail and Telegraph using terms like freedom and sovereignty like it's a commodity only valued by them. They also spoke of thousands of Turks rushing into Britain once Turkey became an EU member, something which might not even happen portrayed as fact, along with all the money being reinvested in the NHS. Lots of lies. George Osborne came out with a few of his own, but they were way too alarmist for anyone to take seriously. In the end people believed the Brexit lies.

[ananda]

13. Well our corporate oligarchy has already lost its borders.

Trump will be doing business with other oligarchs, mainly
the Russians but others willing to be corrupted too.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

21. Brexit was significantly fueled by straight-up racism

Trump's victory looks positively nuanced by comparison.

[FairWinds]

18. It is important to note that the EU is founded on the principle . .

of the free movement of human beings - and capital as well.

NAFTA, TPP & corporocratic trade allows only for the free movement of CAPITAL.

If capital is mobile, but people are not, people can be played against one another -
as we have learned.

This is TRADE 101 - which almost no one grasps.

[AngryAmish]

23. warns Malta's PM

[Adrahil]

24. Did the UK top court just rule...

That May cannot trigger Article 50 herself? She must get parliamentary approval.