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Wed Jun 27, 2012, 12:10 PM

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

Source: Fortune

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal
June 27, 2012: 5:00 AM ET

A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust.

By Katherine Eban

* * *

As political pressure has mounted, ATF and Justice Department officials have reversed themselves. After initially supporting Group VII agents and denying the allegations, they have since agreed that the ATF purposefully chose not to interdict guns it lawfully could have seized. Holder testified in December that "the use of this misguided tactic is inexcusable, and it must never happen again."

There's the rub.

Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.

Indeed, a six-month Fortune investigation reveals that the public case alleging that Voth and his colleagues walked guns is replete with distortions, errors, partial truths, and even some outright lies. Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people, including seven law-enforcement agents with direct knowledge of the case. Several, including Voth, are speaking out for the first time.

* * *

Read more: http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

122 replies, 19214 views

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Arrow 122 replies Author Time Post
Reply The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal (Original post)
goodhue Jun 2012 OP
allan01 Jun 2012 #1
PDJane Jun 2012 #2
goodhue Jun 2012 #4
JDPriestly Jun 2012 #19
snot Jun 2012 #21
goodhue Jun 2012 #22
wordpix Jul 2012 #118
clang1 Jun 2012 #81
wordpix Jul 2012 #117
Kingofalldems Jun 2012 #18
Hoyt Jun 2012 #3
PavePusher Jun 2012 #10
Hoyt Jun 2012 #11
JDPriestly Jun 2012 #20
PavePusher Jun 2012 #29
JDPriestly Jun 2012 #90
PavePusher Jun 2012 #91
JDPriestly Jun 2012 #92
PavePusher Jun 2012 #93
JDPriestly Jun 2012 #94
PavePusher Jun 2012 #95
JDPriestly Jul 2012 #96
PavePusher Jul 2012 #97
JDPriestly Jul 2012 #99
PavePusher Jul 2012 #100
JDPriestly Jul 2012 #113
PavePusher Jul 2012 #114
JDPriestly Jul 2012 #116
malthaussen Jun 2012 #32
PavePusher Jun 2012 #35
JDPriestly Jun 2012 #80
wordpix Jul 2012 #119
Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2012 #27
PavePusher Jun 2012 #28
boppers Jun 2012 #34
PavePusher Jun 2012 #36
boppers Jun 2012 #39
PavePusher Jun 2012 #40
boppers Jun 2012 #44
PavePusher Jun 2012 #50
boppers Jun 2012 #67
PavePusher Jun 2012 #70
boppers Jun 2012 #72
PavePusher Jun 2012 #74
boppers Jun 2012 #77
boppers Jun 2012 #66
PavePusher Jun 2012 #69
boppers Jun 2012 #71
PavePusher Jun 2012 #73
boppers Jun 2012 #75
rl6214 Jul 2012 #102
LineLineLineLineLineReply .
Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2012 #105
rl6214 Jul 2012 #107
Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2012 #109
rl6214 Jul 2012 #110
Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2012 #111
rl6214 Jul 2012 #115
wordpix Jul 2012 #120
boppers Jun 2012 #33
Sekhmets Daughter Jun 2012 #49
PavePusher Jun 2012 #51
goodhue Jun 2012 #54
PavePusher Jun 2012 #55
goodhue Jun 2012 #56
PavePusher Jun 2012 #58
goodhue Jun 2012 #59
PavePusher Jun 2012 #63
goodhue Jun 2012 #85
goodhue Jun 2012 #60
PavePusher Jun 2012 #62
goodhue Jun 2012 #84
PavePusher Jul 2012 #98
wordpix Jul 2012 #121
clang1 Jun 2012 #38
JDPriestly Jun 2012 #79
naaman fletcher Jun 2012 #5
slackmaster Jun 2012 #6
naaman fletcher Jun 2012 #7
goodhue Jun 2012 #23
naaman fletcher Jun 2012 #25
goodhue Jun 2012 #48
slackmaster Jun 2012 #87
pansypoo53219 Jun 2012 #8
onehandle Jun 2012 #9
Hoyt Jun 2012 #12
clang1 Jun 2012 #13
clang1 Jun 2012 #14
clang1 Jun 2012 #15
PavePusher Jun 2012 #17
clang1 Jun 2012 #41
rl6214 Jul 2012 #103
clang1 Jun 2012 #42
PavePusher Jun 2012 #52
Kingofalldems Jun 2012 #16
clang1 Jun 2012 #24
Scurrilous Jun 2012 #26
TomCADem Jun 2012 #30
clang1 Jun 2012 #37
UnrepentantLiberal Jun 2012 #65
Big_Mike Jun 2012 #64
TomCADem Jun 2012 #78
malthaussen Jun 2012 #31
clang1 Jun 2012 #43
Greggers Jun 2012 #45
clang1 Jun 2012 #53
goodhue Jun 2012 #46
Mosaic Jun 2012 #47
truthisfreedom Jun 2012 #57
clang1 Jun 2012 #61
jpak Jun 2012 #68
freshwest Jun 2012 #76
clang1 Jun 2012 #82
Kolesar Jun 2012 #83
lang1 Jun 2012 #88
lang1 Jun 2012 #89
goodhue Jun 2012 #86
lib2DaBone Jul 2012 #101
underpants Jul 2012 #104
sofa king Jul 2012 #106
underpants Jul 2012 #108
DanTex Jul 2012 #112
goodhue Jul 2012 #122

Response to goodhue (Original post)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 12:20 PM

1. re: The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

thank you for this peice . its interisting how some stories get a lot of attention around here and some dont

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 12:21 PM

2. In other words, the truth about the scandal is..........

That there never was a scandal, and certainly not on the part of the Obama administration.

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Response to PDJane (Reply #2)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 12:32 PM

4. the attitude of the U.S. Attorney office in Pheonix seems the heart of the problem . . .

* * *

In a meeting on Jan. 5, 2010, Emory Hurley, the assistant U.S. Attorney in Phoenix overseeing the Fast and Furious case, told the agents they lacked probable cause for arrests, according to ATF records. Hurley's judgment reflected accepted policy at the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona. "Purchasing multiple long guns in Arizona is lawful," Patrick Cunningham, the U.S. Attorney's then–criminal chief in Arizona would later write. "Transferring them to another is lawful and even sale or barter of the guns to another is lawful unless the United States can prove by clear and convincing evidence that the firearm is intended to be used to commit a crime."

* * *

Several other agents speculate that Arizona's gun culture may have led to indifference. Hurley is an avid gun enthusiast, according to two law-enforcement sources who worked with him. One of those sources says he saw Hurley behind the counter at a gun show, helping a friend who is a weapons dealer.

William Newell, then special agent in charge of the ATF's Phoenix field division, suspected that U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke, an Obama appointee, was not being briefed adequately by deputies about the volume of guns being purchased.

* * *

The conflict between federal prosecutors and ATF agents had been growing for years. Pete Forcelli, who served as group supervisor of ATF's Phoenix I field division for five years, told Congress in June 2011 that he believed Arizona federal prosecutors made up excuses to decline cases. "Despite the existence probable cause in many cases," he testified, "there were no indictments, no prosecutions, and criminals were allowed to walk free." Prosecutors in Los Angeles and New York were far more aggressive in pursuing gun cases, Forcelli asserted.

Phoenix-based ATF agents became so frustrated by prosecutors' intransigence that, in a highly unusual move, they began bringing big cases to the state attorney general's office instead.

* * *

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Response to goodhue (Reply #4)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 03:50 PM

19. Thanks, goodhue. Somehow this rings true.

Burke is an Obama appointment but has a long history of public service.

On Wednesday, September 16, 2009, Dennis K. Burke was sworn in as the United States Attorney for the District of Arizona. He was recently appointed to serve on the Attorney General's Advisory Committee (AGAC) which advises the Attorney General on policy, management, and operational issues at the Department of Justice. He was also selected to be the Chair of the AGAC Subcommittee on Border and Immigration Law Enforcement and a member of two other AGAC Subcommittees on Native American Issues and Civil Rights.

Burke has over 20 years of public service at both the Federal and State levels. Burke was most recently a Senior Advisor to Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano. He served as Chief of Staff to Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano from 2003 to 2008. Prior to that position, he worked in the Arizona Attorney General's Office as the Chief Deputy Attorney General. He is a former Assistant United States Attorney for the District of Arizona prosecuting drug trafficking cases, was the Assistant Attorney General for Legislative Affairs at the United States Department of Justice, a Senior Policy Analyst for the White House Domestic Policy Council during the Clinton Administration and a Majority Counsel for the United States Senate Judiciary Committee, where he worked on three Supreme Court nominations, intellectual property as well as crime and law enforcement legislation. Senator Dennis DeConcini (D-AZ) credited Burke and Rahm Emmanuel with fostering and getting the 1994 Assault Weapon Ban passed.

He graduated from Georgetown University in 1985 and received a law degree in 1988 from University of Arizona, College of Law in Tucson, where he served as Executive Editor of the Arizona Law Review. After law school, Burke was a clerk for the Honorable James Moeller on the Arizona Supreme Court. He was also an Adjunct Professor of Law at the Sandra Day O'Connor College of Law at Arizona State University. Burke has received numerous awards and commendations for his years in public service, including the Public Advocate Award from Chicanos Por La Causa in Phoenix, Arizona and the Minuteman Award from the Arizona National Guard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_K._Burke

Among other things, Burke is an advocate for minority rights and in Arizona no less. No wonder Arizona Republicans think this is such a huge scandal.

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Response to goodhue (Reply #4)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 05:13 PM

21. Who was supposed to brief Burke?

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Response to snot (Reply #21)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 06:43 PM

22. good question

he apparently learned truth from William Newell of the ATF . . .

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

* * *

William Newell, then special agent in charge of the ATF's Phoenix field division, suspected that U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke, an Obama appointee, was not being briefed adequately by deputies about the volume of guns being purchased. He wrote to colleagues in February 2010 that the prosecutor seemed "taken aback by some of the facts I informed him about"—by then, the Fast and Furious suspects had purchased 800 guns—"so I am setting up a briefing for him (alone no USAO 'posse') about this case and several other cases I feel he is being misled about."

* * *

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Response to goodhue (Reply #22)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 12:57 PM

118. Burke called Grassley's staff "Stooges for the Gun Lobby" for Fast & Furious probe: article

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/12/former_us_attorney_called_grassleys_staff_willing_stooges_for_the_gun_lobby.php

Ex U.S. Attorney Called Grassley’s Staff ‘Stooges For The Gun Lobby’ For Fast And Furious Probe

Article explains what all the brouhaha is about

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Response to goodhue (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 05:41 AM

81. The NRA need to go

 

Last edited Fri Jun 29, 2012, 06:31 AM - Edit history (20)

'Arizona's gun culture may have led to indifference'


It only contributes to the Tyranny. That is why it was involved in F&F and this Impeachment. Why else would Issa have involved them then.


My own opinion is that having an entity who's SOLE purpose is to PROMOTE GUNs in an ALREADY VIOLENT SOCIETY is INSANE, ANYWAY. ITS ALL THE GODDAMN GUNS.

THE DAMN THINGS ARE HERE AND KILLING PEOPLE AND THEY ARE EXPORTING THEM ILLEGALLY AND KILLING PEOPLE. IT IS WHAT THEY ALWAYS DO. MORE OF THE SAME OLD CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICAN BULLSHIT.

AND IT IS WHAT IT IS. THE ENTIRE WORLD SAYS SO. SO IT IS. AND THE WORLD SAYS BULLSHIT. STOP IT.

NONE OF YOU ARE QUALIFIED TO DEAL WITH GUNS OR DRUGS IF YOUR LEADERS DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT

METH IS NOT WORSE THAN POT....


SO WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH YOUR GUNS THEN? WHAT IS THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF IT IF YOU CANNOT EVEN TELL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT METH IS NOT WORSE THAN POT?


WHAT THE FUCK IS ALL THIS BULLSHIT BUT A WASTE OF ALL OUR GODDAMN MONEY THEN?



IT IS ONLY ABOUT POWER MONEY AND KILLING PEOPLE TO CONTINUE TO GET IT. PERIOD.


STOP IT. QUIT DESTABILIZING COUNTRIES OVER THIS GARBAGE. QUITE DESTABILIZING OUR OWN COUNTRY OVER THIS FUCKING GARBAGE.



CALL IT ALL WHAT THE FUCK IT IS. A SCAM. ALL OF IT.


THIS IS WHAT THE WORLD SAYS. THIS IS WHAT I SEE WITH MY OWN TWO EYES AS WELL. SO IT IS THE TRUTH.


STOP TRYING TO GET RICH OFF OF OTHERS PEOPLES BLOOD.


THIS IS THE REALITY, THIS IS WHAT THE ANALYSIS SAYS, THIS IS WHAT THE WORLD SAYS... SO IT IS TRUE..


EVERYONE IS A HYPOCRITE AND A LIAR WHEN IT COMES TO CURRUPTION...JUST LIKE THIS IS. EVERYONE.


END IT NOW. IT NEEDS TO BE ENDED.


FOR FUCKS SAKE PEOPLE AMERICAN CANNOT EVEN ENSURE THE INTEGRITY OF ITS OWN ELECTIONS BECAUSE OF THIS CRAP. WAKE UP.

SEE THE FUCKING PATTERN. IT HAS BEEN GOING ON ALL OVER SOUTH AMERICA AND THE WORLD.

THE ENTIRE WORLD SEES ALL OF IT WHILE YOU PEOPLE DO NOT SEE THE FOREST FOR THE TREES ON ANY OF IT. WHY ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT IT THEN?

WE ALREADY SEE THE THE RESULTS OF YOUR TALK.... AND THEY CORRODE DEMOCRACY. HERE AND ABROAD. PERIOD.


AND FOR FUCKS SAKE... IT IS ALL INSANE. THERE ARE CITIZENS DYING ALL OVER AMERICA BECAUSE OF IT.


ABSOLUTELY NONE OF YOU WANT REAL CHANGE.. NOT HERE, NOT IN EGYPT, ANYWHERE....ALL THAT ANY OF YOU TALK ABOUT IS WHAT DOES NOT WORK. THAT IS FACT.

START TALKING ABOUT WHAT DOES WORK. AND BE SINCERE ABOUT IT. BECAUSE MOST OF YOU ARE NOT HONEST. YOU ARE NOT HONEST ABOUT THE WORLD, SO YOU DONT KNOW ANYTHING. PERIOD.


NONE OF THIS SHIT IS ABOUT DEMOCRACY ANYWAY........THE WORLD SEES IT AND IT SAYS THAT. SO IT IS TRUE.



PERIOD
.









Meanwhile...The Progression continues...

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Response to PDJane (Reply #2)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 03:34 PM

18. Kand R for the NRA crowd

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 12:31 PM

3. Good find, and thanks for posting. Far too many right wingers and even some here have criticized ATF

and Holder.

While I wish F&F had ended with better results (besides charging some 20+ with trafficking crimes), you don't stop valuable work just because some programs aren't successful. Also, I suspect we got a lot more valuable information than ATF and AG can publicly release.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #3)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 01:25 PM

10. "you don't stop valuable work just because some..."

 

...Border Patrol agents get killed by guns you specifically allowed to be sold with no tracking.

There, fixed it for you.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #10)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 01:58 PM

11. Thanks for your support.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #10)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 03:53 PM

20. There is some question as to whether the gun that killed the border patrol guard

was from Fast & Furious. I've heard conflicting reports. Do you have evidence that it was? A link, please.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #20)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 09:04 PM

29. Only the published news reports.

 

I haven't seen anything that raised a query about it. I'll look around when I get home and see what I can find, busy at work right now.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #29)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 09:14 PM

90. As I said, you need some forensic evidence about the bullet. Guns could

have been placed there by anyone at any time -- before or after the shooting. There could be so many explanations for this that might not involve the guns in the shooting of the border guard.

It may be that those guns were involved, but I've just heard that asserted and not heard about the evidence leading to that conclusion.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #90)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 09:40 PM

91. Just for the record, such a matching may not be possible/available.

 

As has been noted in the Gun Control & RKBA forum, ballistic forensics are not well known for solving crimes anywhere but fictional entertainment. This is why "ballistics databases" are essentially worthless, and have no effective track record in crime-solving.

Assuming most of the bullet mass was recovered, you could probably determine size/caliber and construction, possibly match it against ammo left in the guns or casings at scene, and even likely eliminate various guns on-scene. But unless the bullet was almost entirely non-deformed (and after passing through a body and possibly a vest, that would be unlikely), an exact match to a particular weapon is almost impossible.

You can make a case of probability, and sometimes even very high probability. I too would like to see that evidence, but I doubt we ever will.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #91)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 11:09 PM

92. Without it and without witnesses?????

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #92)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 11:52 PM

93. Uh, not sure what you're asking there. n/t

 

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #93)

Sat Jun 30, 2012, 01:17 AM

94. I'm wondering how anyone can claim that the killing was related to the weapons found at

the scene of the shooting if they can't identify the bullet that hit the victim as coming from a specific gun and if there is no witness to the shooting to identify the gun.

It's interesting that the guns were there, but just what their link to the shooting of the border guard if any can only be established through some sort of evidence. People seem to assume that the presence of the guns proves they were involved in the shooting that killed this guard. I'm asking for evidence of that fact. It may be true. I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just asking what is the evidence that shows whether it is true?

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #94)

Sat Jun 30, 2012, 11:41 AM

95. It's actually almost irrelevent if that was the specific gun used to kill Terry or not.

 

Either it showed up at the crime scene via the smugglers, (which means by action/inaction of the ATF/U.S. Prosecuter) meaning it was used in the commission of a crime, or it was planted by the ATF or Border Patrol (or, possibly, someone else...).

Either scenario exhibits an enormous problem that needs to be investigated all the way to its roots, no matter where it leads, politics be damned.

As for Holder... I am in the US Air Force. If I lied to my superiors or Congress about my knowledge of a criminal act, I'd be in jail or have a dishonerable discharge at least. I have no sympathy or tolerance for any government offical, appointed or elected who lies or obstructs an investigation. Again, politics be damned.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #95)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 07:41 PM

96. Holder was lied to. That is why he said what he did. That is why, when he learned

that he had been told a falsehood, he corrected what he had said.

And now, Holder is investigating this. Issa is being very, very political on this, but it is a criminal matter and should not be just another Republican political game.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #96)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 11:18 PM

97. "And now, Holder is investigating this."

 

Almost two years after the fact, and when at risk of loosing his job and stature?

Please excuse me for my vote of no-confidence. He's had plenty of time to investigate. He's failed miserably in his responsibilities and needs to go.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #97)

Tue Jul 3, 2012, 05:04 PM

99. Holder was not informed of the lie until earlier this year. He could not begin to

investigate this until he learned of the lie that had been told to him.

Holder's AG Office tried to end the entire thing. The local federal attorney argues that Arizona law is so permissive on gun sales that it is impossible to prosecute the big dealers.

People seem to think that the accusation is that the American law enforcement agencies were exporting guns. I don't think that is the claim. I think the claim is that the ATF was observing the gun trade that was going on but did not stop it and that in one case at least, a rogue agent tried to export guns himself. There is an article on this in, I believe, Forbes, which should be read by everyone who is interested in this.

There are problems in the ATF and between the ATF and the former federal prosecutor in Arizona, but someone with some prosecutorial clout needs to investigate, not the House, not Issa. He can't prosecute the bad guys.

Issa is way out of place on this one. To the extent that something illegal happened it is Holder's job to prosecute and then Issa can look into whether Holder did what was right. But why is Issa investigating an on-going criminal investigation? That is not proper. If there were no investigation, then it might be appropriate.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #99)

Tue Jul 3, 2012, 07:07 PM

100. Sorry, any military officer who was this out of control of her/his unit....

 

would be summarily relieved.

Holder should be held to the same standard.

He's either incompetent, not in control of his organisation, or he's lying.

As previously stated, boot him.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #100)

Wed Jul 4, 2012, 04:05 PM

113. Was a military officer booted for My Lai, for the torture at Abu Ghraib, for

the many killings of civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq and in nearly every country in which our military has operated in recent years?

Military officers lose control all the time, and they don't lose their jobs or if they do they are retired honorably. The individual soldiers who commit the crimes may be penalized in some instances.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #113)

Wed Jul 4, 2012, 04:17 PM

114. Yes, actually, many were fired/demoted/court-martialed/fined/relieved.

 

2nd Lt. William Calley ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre ), Brigadier General Janis Karpinski ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse ), Lt. Col. Allen West ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_West_(politician) ), as examples.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #114)

Thu Jul 5, 2012, 04:33 PM

116. West: not just "conservative," but downright dangerous.

It appears that West has poor judgment in more than just politics. Uggh!

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #20)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 11:14 PM

32. It's right in the article:

"Ten days after the meeting with Hurley, a Saturday, Jaime Avila, a transient, admitted methamphetamine user, bought three WASR-10 rifles at the Lone Wolf Trading Company in Glendale, Ariz. The next day, a helpful Lone Wolf employee faxed Avila's purchase form to ATF to flag the suspicious activity. It was the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday weekend, so the agents didn't receive the fax until Tuesday, according to a contemporaneous case report. By that time, the legally purchased guns had been gone for three days. The agents had never seen the weapons and had no chance to seize them. But they entered the serial numbers into their gun database. Two of these were later recovered at Brian Terry's murder scene."

Agreed, this does not give ballistic data as to the exact weapon used to kill Agent Terry. But F&F weapons were on the scene.

The WASR-10 is a Romanian AK-47 configured as semi-automatic. I don't know how easy they might be to convert to full auto.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #32)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 12:00 AM

35. Thank you, just got home and was going to post that. n/t

 

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #32)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 05:23 AM

80. The guns were discovered at the murder scene, but was the bullet that killed

him identified as coming from either of the guns?

The guns could have been placed at the murder scene at any time, so you have to have more than their presence to show a link.

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #32)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 01:05 PM

119. So ATF has no one on duty during a holiday? National security issue that no one's minding the store

on holidays.

A suspicious person buys 3 AK-47s and no one in ATF gets the message about the activity til after the MLK holiday. The guns are later used to kill Brian Terry.

This lack of store-minding on holidays is a national security issue. I supposed no one's on duty at DHS or NSA, either.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #10)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 08:42 PM

27. Yeah a drop in the bucket of 2000 guns a day flooding across the border.

Thanks to gun worshiping assholes who fight, tooth and nail, ANY attempt to stem the tide.

The right-wing pigs only get worked when the black guy is in charge.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #27)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 09:01 PM

28. So, the cartels are getting their full-auto AK's and their RPG's....

 

from U.S. gun shops?

Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #28)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 11:41 PM

34. You and I both know it's totally legal for a person to buy a full-auto AK, or RPG, in the US.

They may need a licence, but it's totally legal in the US, with a proper license.

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Response to boppers (Reply #34)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 12:04 AM

36. Which takes a Federal background check and several months to obtain....

 

and gives the Feds permission to inspect the items at basically any time.

Yeah, I doubt the traffickers are doing that, and the sales of such are very carefully controlled too. Anyone who's inventory of full-auto-weapons comes up short is going to have Feds crawling up their ass with a crowbar.

Did you know they also cost about 20-100 times as much as buying by the crate-load from Asia/South America/Russia?

Yeah, the U.S. is probably not part of that problem.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #36)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 12:47 AM

39. So, yeah, legal in the US.

If you fuck it up, you get a show on the History channel, or maybe the Discovery channel (which show is it that 'lost' guns?)

FWIW, I grew up in Tucson, and recall lots of transactions that were $999.00, to duck reporting, to the "good guys".

If you want to shut down illegal border gun sales, you have to shut down *all* gun sales, or register every sale.

The NRA folks squealed like a stuck pig at each of those options.

So, how do you keep gun shops open, and prevent a "Brian White" from buying 35 guns, from 35 shops, on a Tuesday, and selling them on Wednesday to "Pedro Narco"?

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Response to boppers (Reply #39)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 12:54 AM

40. I never said it wasn't legal.... but it's not the route the traffickers are using....

 

as you are attempting (poorly) to insinuate.

I grew up in Tucson, and recall lots of transactions that were $999.00, to duck reporting, to the "good guys".


Cool story, Bro. Got pictures?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #40)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 01:59 AM

44. Nope. No pictures. Just memories.

We sold assault uniforms "legally".

It sometimes turned up, illegal....

...but like most pretentious white folks, it "wasn't our problem".

Which seems to be the attitude of the gun dealers.

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Response to boppers (Reply #44)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 01:35 PM

50. "assault uniforms"? "the attitude of the gun dealers"?

 

O.K., your credibility, if you had any, is now gone.

Have a nice day.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #50)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 11:39 PM

67. If you have a tactical vest, it *will* be used as evidence.

Turns out that a popular tactic (at the time) was for cartels to stock up on official uniforms, "raid" their adversaries, and seize the cash/weapons/inventory, while pretending to be cops.

In some cases, the actual cops were being paid by the cartels to knock out the competition, in other cases, the line between the two was negligible.

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Response to boppers (Reply #67)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 12:39 AM

70. Here in the US? Or in Mexico?

 

Because you were plainly saying here in the U.S., Tucson to be precise.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #70)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 12:49 AM

72. The Uniform game?

My experience was with ones bought in the US, then moved into Mexico, stitch-for-stitch perfect copies of legitimate official uniforms, because the supply chains were mostly the same until almost the very end. I remember even getting special batches of thread, custom ordered, to make sure that the embroidered badges looked *just right*.

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Response to boppers (Reply #72)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 12:57 AM

74. So U.S. LE uniforms were being taken to Mexico and used in fake raids there?

 

U.S. LE uniforms... in Mexico?

Really?

Because the real thing was too difficult to get in corruption-ridden Mexico?

Really?

And the U.S. uniforms looked just like the Mexican uniforms?

I find this recounting difficult to believe. I'm sure you'll provide supporting evidence... any day now.

I'll check back tomorrow, need my beauty rest.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #74)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 02:07 AM

77. Nonono, wait, I must not have been clear.

Mexico LE uniforms were being made in the US.

They could have been made in Mexico, but then, the people making them would be within legal reach.

The US made uniforms *did* look exactly like the local uniforms, because the suppliers were identical, up to a point.

They whole point of not making them in Mexico, I assume, was to conceal who made them, who paid for them, etc.

Sure, they could have gone for local knock-offs or rebuilds, but that's like trying to counterfeit currency in the state that uses the currency. It makes more sense to make the counterfeits where the base material is not controlled, or guarded.

FWIW, we had one batch, about $3,000 USD, rejected, because the Velcro on the tactical suits was "too fuzzy".

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #40)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 11:35 PM

66. Turns out that's *exactly* the route the trafficers were using.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

There's nothing illegal about buying 50 AK's, and selling them to a third party, which is what was actually happening, "full auto" strawman notwithstanding.

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Response to boppers (Reply #66)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 12:38 AM

69. You're the one that brought in the "full auto" strawman.

 

Are you now saying they are not buying full auto guns in the U.S.?

You haven't just moved the goal-posts, you've taken them to the dump.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #69)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 12:41 AM

71. Post #28

Yours, I believe. ^^^^ Up there.

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Response to boppers (Reply #71)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 12:51 AM

73. Hmmm, apparently your sarcasmometer is out of calibration.

 

The cartels are armed with full-auto weapons. I alluded to that with a sarcastic comment in 28.

you then claimed, in posts 34, 39, 44 and 66, that gun dealers in Tucson were selling full-auto weapons to people smuggling them for the cartels.

So, are they or not?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #73)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 01:44 AM

75. The cartels have a wide variety of hardware.

Assuming it's all full-auto is false. So is assuming that there's a large amount. The vast majority, I assume, is not, as there hasn't been much evidence to indicate so. Not a lot of RPG's, either. (Again, your post).

"you then claimed, in posts 34, 39, 44 and 66, that gun dealers in Tucson were selling full-auto weapons to people smuggling them for the cartels. "

No, I was pointing out that dealing in full-auto weapons was a legal activity. So is selling 60 semi-auto AK-47's to a homeless man, paid for with cash, because, well, that's how Arizona and the NRA wanted it to work.

If you re-read my posts, you will note that the primary way I offered to stem the tide of weapons was not shutting down all full-auto dealers, but shutting down *all* dealers, or registering *all* purchases in a central database.

The full-auto-chain exists, but it's not generally run through dealers, and is only a small amount of the weapons (along with RPG's) that move.



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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #27)

Wed Jul 4, 2012, 04:09 AM

102. 2000 guns a day flooding across the border? Link?

 

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #102)

Wed Jul 4, 2012, 10:44 AM

105. .

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/
Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #105)

Wed Jul 4, 2012, 11:46 AM

107. Oh come on, you're not going to trot out that "truth" about the nra BS now are you?

 

The Mexican govt says it's happening so it MUST be true, right?

I've got a link for you...

http://www.examiner.com/article/is-katherine-eban-of-fortune-magazine-lying-about-fast-furious

Whenever the first couple of paragraphs of a so-called “investigative report” include multiple discredited smears of weak gun laws promulgated by the NRA, you can be pretty confident that whatever follows is likely false or misleading.

In the case of Katherine Eban’s “report” on the Fast & Furious scandal, published this morning in Fortune Magazine, it doesn’t even pass the smell test much less prove her ridiculous contention that Fast & Furious was “amplified” by “right-wing bloggers.”

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #107)

Wed Jul 4, 2012, 01:20 PM

109. So you trot out a right-wing blogger who thinks Obama really IS plotting to take guns away with F/F?

Let's look at the titles of this wing nuts OTHER writings. I especially like his writings on Left Wing Totalitarianism and Illegal immigrant sob stories. Oh yeah, his secessionists writings are nice too. WTF:


Secession vs. Non-violent revolution: The proper response to federal overreach

Contrary to what the Stalinists on the left claim, the Constitution was not created for the purposes of establishing an all-powerful central government. In fact, the constitutional convention was originally designed to modify the Articles of Confederation, which...
.

It’s impossible to close the education gap between white and non-white students

John Roberts betrays America, gives a license for totalitarianism



It’s bad enough that nine men and women in black robes decided the fate of our healthcare.It’s bad enough that four of those justices are filthy far left Marxists who have zero regard for the...
.

Is Katherine Eban of Fortune Magazine lying about Fast & Furious?



Taking Marco Rubio to task on immigration

With SB 1070, Supreme Court delivers another blow to Federalism



The “Un-Fair Campaign” gets torn to shreds by mainstream America




Illegal immigration sob stories are beyond tiresome


The left wing lust for totalitarianism becomes more explicit



EPA is incompatible with a first world nation




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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #109)

Wed Jul 4, 2012, 02:08 PM

110. Just the first google item I found that said Katherine Eban was an anti-gun zealot

 

Just goes to show I can find as much BS as you can.

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Response to rl6214 (Reply #110)

Wed Jul 4, 2012, 02:11 PM

111. Somehow I get the impression he is in your favorites.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #111)

Thu Jul 5, 2012, 01:06 AM

115. Who would this be you are talking about?

 

Who ever it is, your impression would be wrong just like your ideas about the Fast and the Furious. Maybe you need to try being sober.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #27)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 01:06 PM

120. aw, give the NRA a break ---they want EVERYONE to own guns, drug cartels included

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #10)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 11:38 PM

33. "you don't stop valuable work just because some..."

...NRA nuts refuse to let *all* guns to be individually tracked and located, regardless of the buyer.

FIFY.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #10)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 12:57 PM

49. The ATF could not stop the sale of those guns

That is really the issue at the heart of the matter. I read the full article in Fortune...Arizona gun laws are so loose, the ATF could do nothing to stop the sale or seize the guns.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #49)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 01:37 PM

51. Had nothing to do with Arizona laws...

 

which are not that different from the laws in many other states.

This was entirely about Federal investigation into the violation of Federal gun trafficking laws.

Or do you now advocate for Arizona enforcing Federal laws?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #51)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 02:29 PM

54. weakest gun violence prevention laws in the nation

According to the Fortune article, Arizona has the weakest gun prevention laws in the nation . . .

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

* * *

Voth's mandate was to stop gun traffickers in Arizona, the state ranked by the gun-control advocacy group Legal Community Against Violence as having the nation's "weakest gun violence prevention laws." Just 200 miles from Mexico, which prohibits gun sales, the Phoenix area is home to 853 federally licensed firearms dealers. Billboards advertise volume discounts for multiple purchases.

Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

* * *

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Response to goodhue (Reply #54)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 02:37 PM

55. What "gun violence prevention laws" should we have?

 

Were the laws being violated and investigated laws of Arizona?

What does Arizona law have to do with investigation of Federal laws being broken?

Do you want Arizona to start enforcing Federal laws? If so, WHICH ONES?

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #55)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 02:47 PM

56. The laws the ATF were hoping to enforce were federal

But it is Arizona's lax state laws that have turned it into gun supermarket for Mexican cartels

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Response to goodhue (Reply #56)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 02:55 PM

58. Again, what laws should we have?

 

And no, if it was Federal laws being violated, that is no fault of Arizona laws.

You can't have it both ways.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #58)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 02:59 PM

59. I was merely responding to assertion that Arizona's laws are not different from other states

http://smartgunlaws.org/arizona-state-law-summary/

In its publication Gun Laws Matter: A Comparison of State Firearms Laws and Statistics, LCPGV ranked each state based on a review of state laws in 25 different firearms-related policy areas. Arizona ranked 50th out of 50 – having enacted the weakest gun violence prevention laws in the country. Among other things, Arizona does not:
•Require a background check prior to the transfer of a firearm between private, unlicensed parties;
•Prohibit the transfer or possession of assault weapons, 50 caliber rifles, or large capacity ammunition magazines;
•Require firearms dealers to obtain a state license;
•Limit the number of firearms that may be purchased at one time;
•Impose a waiting period on firearm sales;
•Regulate unsafe handguns (“junk guns” or “Saturday night specials”);
•Significantly regulate ammunition sales;
•Provide local governments with authority to regulate firearms; or
•Require a license to carry a concealed firearm in public.

In 2009, Arizona had the 15th highest number of gun deaths per capita among the states. In addition, based on data published by Mayors Against Illegal Guns (“MAIG”), Arizona had the 13th highest rate of crime gun exports among the states – meaning that crime guns originally sold in Arizona were recovered after being used in crimes in other states at the 13th highest rate among the states.

According to MAIG, Arizona is also one of the top three source states for U.S. guns that are recovered after being used in a crime in Mexico. When population is taken into account, Arizona has the highest rate of crime gun exports to Mexico of any state.

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Response to goodhue (Reply #59)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 06:16 PM

63. Most states do not have these restrictions. What makes Arizona a special case?

 

Please provide proof that any of those proposed restrictions would reduce crime. Evidence, please.

•Require a background check prior to the transfer of a firearm between private, unlicensed parties

This is true in most states. So what?

•Prohibit the transfer or possession of assault weapons, 50 caliber rifles, or large capacity ammunition magazines

Definitions, please? Then see first sentance, above.

•Require firearms dealers to obtain a state license

They already require a Federal licence. Why the redundancy?

•Limit the number of firearms that may be purchased at one time

See first sentance, above.

•Impose a waiting period on firearm sales

See first sentance, above.

•Regulate unsafe handguns (“junk guns” or “Saturday night specials”)

Definitions, please? Then see first sentance, above. (Unsafe products are already regulated under other laws.)

•Significantly regulate ammunition sales

See first sentance, above.

•Provide local governments with authority to regulate firearms

Only if you let local govs "regulate" the First, Fourth, Thirteenth and Twenty-sixth amendments as well. Also, see first sentance, above.

•Require a license to carry a concealed firearm in public

See first sentance, above.




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Response to PavePusher (Reply #63)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 11:01 AM

85. The content is not mine, but rather from the LCPVG

They analyzed and compared fire arms laws and statistics in all 50 states. Arizona ranked 50.

http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-laws-matter-a-comparison-of-state-firearms-laws-and-statistics/

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #58)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 03:01 PM

60. As to what states should have, look to LCPCV's Model Laws . . .

Model Laws for a Safer America is designed for use by activists and elected officials nationwide seeking to close dangerous loopholes in our federal regulatory system. The publication provides sample language for state and local gun laws in seven crucial areas, supported by detailed legislative findings.

The publication provides sample language for state and local laws to: 1) require background checks on all gun purchasers; 2) license firearm owners; 3) register all firearms; 4) regulate firearms dealers and ammunition sellers; 5) require the reporting of lost or stolen firearms; 6) impose a waiting period before the sale of a firearm; and 7) limit firearm purchases to one per person every 90 days. The publication also includes a discussion of common opposition arguments and legal issues.

http://smartgunlaws.org/model-gun-laws/

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Response to goodhue (Reply #60)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 06:06 PM

62. May I see your government issued First, Fourth, Thirteenth and Twenty-sixth Amendment licences...

 

please? Because having one means your intentions may not be criminal...

Yeah, the rules you approve of are just as vile, unproven, useless and fucktarded.

1. Just like most other states. Show me where having such a law has reduced crime. Evidence, please.

2. See item 1.

3. See item 1.

4. Dealers ar regulated by Federal and some state laws. What additional laws do you want?

5. See item 1.

6. See item 1.

7. Only if you apply this to books as well. Otherwise, see item 1.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #62)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 10:56 AM

84. I'm just sharing some model laws by interest group

I gather you don't approve, but doesn't really matter to me

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Response to goodhue (Reply #84)

Mon Jul 2, 2012, 11:19 PM

98. I guess I don't get to see those Permits, eh?

 

Fascinating.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #49)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 01:08 PM

121. agree, but someone should be on duty during a holiday - ATF missed suspicious activity faxed to them

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #3)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 12:44 AM

38. IT IS THE ATF'S FAULT PERIOD. AND MANY MORE PEOPLES FAULT

 

IT IS ALL A WITCH HUNT AND NONE OF THE RIGHT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN 'CRITICIZED' OVER IT. PERIOD. IN FACT THOSE THAT THEY HAVE BEEN CRITICAL OF, ARE THE WRONG PEOPLE. PERIOD.

TO CALL EVERYONE OVERCRITICAL IS ABSURD, UNLESS YOU ARE CALLING THE REPUBLICANS OVERCRITICAL. AND THAT IS NOT WHAT HAS BEEN SAID. AND WE ALREADY KNOW THAT THEY HAVE BEEN OVERCRITICAL...AFTER ALL THEY ARE THE ONES BEHIND THIS.











Meanwhile....The Progression continues....



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Response to Hoyt (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 05:22 AM

79. Yes. And some of that information may be about certain ATF agents themselves.

I can think of scenarios in which the very ATF agents who are bringing accusations might be under scrutiny.

It's very hard to say what the story really is from that Fortune article because it is clear that all the real facts are not known.

The Republicans are certainly trying to use this for political gain, but in fact, it sounds like the people on their side may be the problem. Hard to say, but I think there is much more going on than is known at this time.

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 12:35 PM

5. "No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking"

 

I really didn't bother reading past that early line, as it is just so completely false.

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Response to naaman fletcher (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 12:43 PM

6. I had exactly the same reaction. That is complete bullshit!

 

ATF Home
Firearms
Frequently Asked Questions
Importing & Exporting

Importing & Exporting

...

Q: Does a licensee need an export license to export a firearm?

The GCA does not require export licenses. However, most firearms and ammunition must be exported in accordance with the provisions of the Arms Export Control Act of 1976. Regulations implementing this Act generally require a license to be obtained from the Directorate of Defense Trade Controls, Department of State, PM/DDTC, SA-1, Room 1200, 2401 E St., N.W., Washington, DC 20037; (202) 663-1282.

The export of sporting shotguns and ammunition for sporting shotguns is regulated by the U.S. Department of Commerce rather than the State Department. An export license is generally needed to export these shotguns and ammunition. For further information, contact them at their nearest district office or the Bureau of Industry and Security, Outreach and Educational Services Division, U.S. Department of Commerce, 14th St. & Pennsylvania Ave. N.W., Washington, DC 20230, (202) 482-4811.

When exporting NFA firearms, ATF Form 9 must be completed and approved by ATF prior to export.




http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/imports.html#explort-licensing

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Response to naaman fletcher (Reply #5)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 06:50 PM

23. If you don't get past the 2nd paragraph, then you're missing out on a lot of pertinent detail

As to the allegedly false sentence, maybe semantics are tripping some up--outlaw and regulate are not synonyms.

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Response to goodhue (Reply #23)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 07:19 PM

25. yes of course

 

But theoretically, how can you trust anything else this person says when they make such a glaring error? All he/she had to do was call like one person to verify this, or do a simple google search.

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Response to naaman fletcher (Reply #25)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 12:12 PM

48. I'm not sure it's an error

As I understand it, federal law does not outlaw gun trafficking unless the firearm is intended to be used to commit a crime.
Or at least that is what the US attorneys in Pheonix thought . . .

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

* * *

It was nearly impossible in Arizona to bring a case against a straw purchaser. The federal prosecutors there did not consider the purchase of a huge volume of guns, or their handoff to a third party, sufficient evidence to seize them. A buyer who certified that the guns were for himself, then handed them off minutes later, hadn't necessarily lied and was free to change his mind. Even if a suspect bought 10 guns that were recovered days later at a Mexican crime scene, this didn't mean the initial purchase had been illegal. To these prosecutors, the pattern proved little. Instead, agents needed to link specific evidence of intent to commit a crime to each gun they wanted to seize.

None of the ATF agents doubted that the Fast and Furious guns were being purchased to commit crimes in Mexico. But that was nearly impossible to prove to prosecutors' satisfaction. And agents could not seize guns or arrest suspects after being directed not to do so by a prosecutor.

* * *

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Response to goodhue (Reply #48)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 05:32 PM

87. Exporting a firearm without a license to do so is a federal crime. So is providing one to anyone...

 

...who is prohibited from owning it.

Somehow people DO get prosecuted for gun trafficking.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117246761

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 01:04 PM

8. can you say whitewater?

this is digging for ANYTHING by the VAST RITE WING CONSPIRACY.

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 01:15 PM

9. Fuck the National Republican Association. nt

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Response to onehandle (Reply #9)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 01:59 PM

12. Perfect +1000000000000000000000000

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 01:59 PM

13. Propaganda. They have though. That is all that matters.

 

Further propaganda by deception.









THINK ABOUT IT....THEY ARE ACHIEVING THEIR GOAL THEY ARE DISRUPTING THE ELECTIONS






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Response to clang1 (Reply #13)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 02:04 PM

14. THINK ABOUT IT....THEY ARE ACHIEVING THEIR GOAL THEY ARE DISRUPTING THE ELECTIONS

 

How much clearer does it need to be?





You people need to understand what you are up against. I already do understand.


IT IS TREASON




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Response to clang1 (Reply #14)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 02:08 PM

15. IT IS TREASON. Understand, please.

 



People need to frame things for what they ARE.

Until everyone understands this. WE LOSE.





THIS NEEDS TO BE SAID ACROSS THE COUNTRY.


PERIOD.



Because it is, what it is....PERIOD





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Response to clang1 (Reply #15)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 02:43 PM

17. You keep responding to... yourself.

 

That doesn't help your credibility, if you have any.

Just sayin'....

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #17)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 01:05 AM

41. I NEED NO CREDIBILITY FROM ANYONE HERE

 

I ALREADY HAVE MY MORALITY. THAT DOES NOT COME FROM YOU OR FROM ANYONE HERE FOR THAT MATTER. I AM NOT SEEKING CREDIBILITY EITHER, I ALREADY KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, I ALREADY KNOW WHATS GOING ON AND WHAT TO CALL THINGS. AND I ALREADY KNOW WHAT IS AT STAKE. WHY DO I NEED CREDIBILITY FROM YOU TO KNOW THIS?

I NEED NOTHING FROM YOU. PERIOD. IN FACT IT IS YOU, THAT NEEDS SOMETHING FROM ME. AND THATS TWO EYES. I SEE FINE, THANK YOU. YOU NEED TO SEE, NOT ME. IF ANYTHING, AS I HAVE SWORN BEFORE TO PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, YOU SHOULD HAVE CREDIBILITY BEFORE ME THAT YOU EVEN KNOW HOW TO BE A GOOD CITIZEN. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THAT YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS I WOULD RISK MY OWN LIFE FOR.

NO...YOU NEED THE CREDIBILITY. NOT ME. NO...YOU ARE NOT ON MY TEAM. PERIOD. YOU ARE NOT WORTH IT EITHER.
UNDERSTAND THAT.

I DEMAND NOTHING FROM YOU EITHER, I AM NOT A DICTATOR. ALL I ASK YOU DO, IS GO AWAY FROM ME. LEAVE MY SIGHT IS ALL THAT I WOULD ASK YOU IF YOU QUESTION MY CREDIBILITY ON THESE MATTERS.
UNDERSTAND THIS.














Meanwhile...The Progression continues....

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Response to clang1 (Reply #41)

Wed Jul 4, 2012, 04:18 AM

103. Why are you screaming?

 

Relax, take a pill, have a drink, chill.

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Response to PavePusher (Reply #17)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 01:17 AM

42. Do you now understand about CREDIBILITY? n/t

 

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Response to clang1 (Reply #42)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 01:39 PM

52. No, I only understand that you are doing the Internet equivalent of shouting...

 

(LET GO OF THE CAPS KEY)

...and that you are otherwise incoherent and demanding you be ignored on a publicly accessable debate forum.

Good luck with that.

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 02:08 PM

16. I have responded to one poster who claims Holder is

Last edited Wed Jun 27, 2012, 05:30 PM - Edit history (2)

a perjurer. Oops. Guess he was wrong.

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 07:00 PM

24. It is CORRUPTION

 



and corruption being used to affect an election and it is MORE than just simple corruption. THE FUCKING CORRUPTION IS EVERYWHERE and people are LOST in it.

REASON THAT OUT....IT IS NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE. UNTIL YOU SEE THE FOREST FOR THE TREES. UNTIL THEN, YOU ARE GRABBING AT SLITHERING SNAKES.

AND I SEE SNAKES EVERYWHERE, AND SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE.



THE FUCKING CORRUPTION=TREASON
One American has died directly because of this, how many Mexicans? How many are not DEAD YET?


POLITICAL CORRUPTION...






Meanwhile....The progresssion continues....

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 07:28 PM

26. K & R

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 09:28 PM

30. Excellent Reporting That Shows The NRA and Issa Conspiracy Mongering

Sadly, the MSM will simply repeat the RW talking points, rather than engage in any actual journalism.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #30)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 12:08 AM

37. Call it Mongering

 

Last edited Fri Jun 29, 2012, 05:58 AM - Edit history (23)

It is deep Corruption and it is Tyranny.


Some people seem to see this as just another incident. Just like they ALL are, except this one


a promises NRA that F&F investigation will hold ... - Examiner.com

www.examiner.com/.../issa-promises-nra-that-f-f-investigation-will-h...


Apr 15, 2012 – ST. LOUIS — California Congressman Darrell Issa promised members of the National Rifle Association gathered here that his probe of the ...

AND OUR ELECTIONS ARE SOON AND THERE IS VOTER DISFRANCHISEMENT OCCURING.

NO. WHY did he have to TELL them anything at all? No... The NRA ARE NOT THE CITIZENS. ABSURD.


WHO SUPPORTS THE NRA..... WHO STARTED THIS? NOT DEMOCRATS. THE GOP DID. DO YOU THINK THE NRA WANTS GOP HEADS?
NO. THEY WANT DEMOCRAT HEADS.



EVERYONE WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE. WHY DID HE TELL THE NRA THIS?

NOTHING IS AN ISOLATED INCIDENT WITH THESE PEOPLE NOTHING.

PEOPLE ONLY THINK IT IS ISOLATED, WHEN THEY ARE CAUGHT. BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE TOLD TO THINK THIS.

WAKE UP. IT IS TYRANNY. AND NONE OF IT IS ISOLATED. IT IS OCCURING AROUND THE COUNTRY. AS WE SPEAK.
AND THAT IS FACT. AND IT HAS BEEN FOR YEARS. THE ONLY 'FACT' NOT AGREED ON IS WHAT TO CALL ALL OF THIS. I CALL IT TYRANNY. THAT IS WHAT IT IS, AND THAT IS A FACT. TYRANNY. TYRANNY IS NOT AN ISOLATED INCIDENT, IT OCCURS OVER AND OVER AGAIN, SAME AS ALL OF THIS STUFF DOES. CALL IT WHAT IT IS. IT IS BOTH CORRUPTION AND TYRANNY.

RIGHT NOW IT COULD AFFECT OUR VOTE=TYRANNY.

WITH TYRANNY COMES CORRUPTION. THEY ARE BOTH EQUAL.

IT IS WHAT IT IS. PERIOD. EVERYONE HAS SEEN WHAT HAPPENED IN 2000. WHAT DONT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND ABOUT ANY OF THIS AND WHAT THESE PEOPLE WILL DO TO GAIN POWER. THEY WILL LITERALLY DO ANYTHING TO WIN AND WILL BREAK ANY LAW TO DO IT. AND THAT IS TYRANNY IN A DEMOCRACY.
PERIOD.


INVOLVING THE NRA IN ALL OF THIS DOES NOTHING BUT ATTEMPT TO LEGITIMIZE GUN VIOLENCE. PERIOD. AND THAT IS MORE TYRANNY.....AND HERE WE ARE YET AGAIN, BACK TO THE STINKING ONION THAT EVERYONE CAN SEE AND SMELL.

PEOPLE NEED TO WAKE UP TO THE PATTERNS OF ALL THIS. SOME SAY DEMOCRACY IS RULE BY FOOLS, WELL HERE ARE THE FOOLS....ONLY THEY ARE NO FOOLS. IT IS THE PEOPLE THAT ARE BEING MADE FOOLS OF. IN DEMOCRACIES, LEADERS DO NOT CALL THEIR CITIZENS FOOLS BY DOING THINGS SUCH AS THESE. PERIOD. IF THEY DO, THEY GET NO VOTES. HERE THEY DO THIS BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY BUY VOTES. PERIOD. THAT IS NOT DEMOCRACY.




Meanwhile....The Progression continues.

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Response to clang1 (Reply #37)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 07:39 PM

65. Don't Bogart that ... my friend

 

Pass it over to me

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #30)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 07:18 PM

64. Unfortunately, upon seeing her sources, I strongly doubt that the story is either factual or correct

I have been following this story ever since Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was killed in Arizona. I have friends in BoPo, and they started to talk about some of the weapons involved were from another investigation. Then later, excerpts from emails were shown that stated one of the serial numbers matched what was sold from the gun shop in Arizona.

When the first whistle blower, ATF Agent John Dodson, came forward to with his charges, he specifically called out Supervisory Agent Voth, Mr. Newell (I do not remember his title, but I believe that he was senior to Voth), as well as other supervisors and the people from the US Attorney's office. Among those personnel are the people chosen by the writer to describe the story. Rather than being suspended or fired as any police officer or federal agent would be, they have been laterally transferred or even promoted since Agent Terry was killed.

There is a blog forum about this issue exclusively that is moderated by ATF agents, to include those who came forward to testify to Congress - (http:cleanupatf.org/forums/index.php?/topic/153-atf-operation-gunrunnerfast-furiousphoenix-division) titled ATF Operation Gunrunner/Fast & Furious. It is run by current and former ATF agents.

The men who testified did NOT exercise their 5th Amendment rights and testified openly. They have suffered retaliation and harassment ever since testifying.

Generally, when I try to decide whom to believe in a dispute, I believe the guys on the ground, and not politicians or senior supervisory types. I think the troops on the ground present a more honest and believable account than those senior personnel who try to cover things up.

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Response to Big_Mike (Reply #64)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 02:22 AM

78. Reports Seems Far Better Sources Than Most Articles

If you look at most Fast and Furious articles, there is precious little effort to actually analyze the underlying testimony before Congress or the materials that have been produced in the course of the Congressional investigation. Also, with all due respect to an anonymous poster claiming that he knows someone with inside information on the subject, I tend to believe the reporter who is actually referencing materials that are publicly available and who has read them.

Finally, separate apart from the program, is the subpoena regarding the internal discussions regarding a response to the subpoena, which Issa has sold to the NRA as part of an effort to uncover an Obama comspiracy to promote gun control. Even the conservative National Review has condemned Issa's efforts to promote this theory.

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Wed Jun 27, 2012, 11:04 PM

31. Would make a hell of a novel

Very interesting report; very interesting data. I thought Mr Voth's comments in his e-mail about wiretapping were illuminating. But this does have the ring of truth. I'd like to know more about the "Renagades" and "Sunshine Bears," since the article appears to be trying to blame the whole mess on the former.

It's ironic -- and sad -- that it took the killing of a border agent to get action on all the investigations that were being stayed for "lack of evidence." I'm not clear on how, all of a sudden, the "evidence" was found no longer to be "lacking" (except in the case of the specific rifles used to kill the border agent).

And the bit at the end about the main suspects being on the FBI payroll -- priceless.

-- Mal

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 01:58 AM

43. WHEN DID THE VIOLENCE BEGIN IN MEXICO?

 

Last edited Fri Jun 29, 2012, 05:46 AM - Edit history (3)

WHO BENEFITS FROM THIS VIOLENCE? El Presidente CALDERON DOES. WHO ARE HIS FRIENDS?


WHEN DID THE VIOLENCE BEGIN IN MEXICO? WHEN HE WAS ELECTED. SO YES.....THERE IS THE PROBABLE ANSWER.


WHAT DOES EVERYONE KNOW ABOUT THE ELECTIONS THAT JUST HAPPENED IN MEXICO A FEW YEARS AGO?

THEY WERE CORRUPT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


SEE THE OBVIOUS. ALWAYS THINK AND SEE. YOU WILL BE AMAZED BY IT ALL. I AM.



THIS PEOPLE IS THE ANSWER.....LOOK AT THE TIMING. IT IS TREASON.

LOOK AT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE BEFORE...LOOK AT HISTORY.

THIS IS MY TAKE ON THE MATTER. IT IS WHAT IS OBVIOUS TO ME.

THING IS NO MATTER HOW I LOOK AT IT, IT IS ALL THE SAME. BECAUSE IT IS. PERIOD.

IT DESTABILIZES COUNTRYS AND KILLS PEOPLE. AND THAT IS THE POINT OF IT.


CONSIDER ALL THE PARTIES THAT COULD HAVE BEEN INVOLVED....WHAT HAVE THEY ALWAYS DONE?

THIS VIOLENCE WAS MEANT TO DESTABILIZE MEXICO. MEXICO ALREADY KNOWS THIS, THAT IS WHY THEY RAISED A DIPLOMATIC COMPLAINT ABOUT IT.





Meanwhile....The progression continues...



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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 04:40 AM

45. F&F was invented by Republicans

Fast and Furious isn't a big deal. It was invented by Rethuglicans in order to make Eric Holder look bad. It is a racially motivated attack because they can't stand black people.

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Response to Greggers (Reply #45)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 02:17 PM

53. No BIG DEAL ?

 

A Country that is our FRIEND has Complained about it. How do YOU, treat YOUR friends? I don't want to know.

People NEED to Understand who their Friends are. People that live in Mud Huts did NOT Cause 9-11. Understand that.
Understand WHY that attitude is a CORROSIVE one. It Creates HATE. SEE THAT. THE WORLD SEES IT.

WE ALL HAVE TO LIVE HERE. HISTORY HAS ALREADY SHOWN YOU, YOU CAN DO IT THE 9-11 WAY, OR CHOOSE THE RIGHT FRIENDS.
IT IS YOUR CHOICE TO MAKE UNLESS YOU LET THE POLITICIANS DECIDE IT FOR YOU. AND THEY DID.

AND WE SEE THE RESULT OF THAT. THIS IS THE TRUTH. THE ENTIRE WORLD SAYS THIS BECAUSE THE WORLD DOES NOT LIE.

MAKE THE CONNECTIONS BETWEEN YOUR OWN LIVES AND THE WORLD. WHAT DO YOU CHOOSE? 9-11? OR SOMETHING BETTER THAN THAT? MAKE THE CONNECTIONS, IT IS REALLY THAT SIMPLE. IT IS ABOUT CHOICE. ALL OF IT IS. IT IS THE WAY THAT LIFE WORKS.


















Meanwhile....The Progression continues....

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 10:36 AM

47. The truth is they are scared to death of Holder

Stopping their disgusting efforts to steal the November election. Pelosi is absolutely right on this one, as are many on the world wide web.

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 02:47 PM

57. If it turns out that the guns weren't walked (whatever that actuall means),

and that the whole thing was a political ploy to take advantage of something that could easily be misinterpreted, and that in fact the guns got into Mexico because our agents were hamstrung by weak gun laws...

Then we could be looking at some very confused and red-faced rethugs.

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Response to truthisfreedom (Reply #57)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 03:04 PM

61. Yes. EVERYTHING must be considered. I see what I think is the OBVIOUS

 

Last edited Fri Jun 29, 2012, 06:02 AM - Edit history (2)

Because we have ALL SEEN it Time and Again.

EITHER WAY.....SAME RESULTS HERE. AND THAT IS WHAT MATTERS. THEIR REASONS GIVEN, REALLY MEAN NOTHING TO US AS PEOPLE. AND EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE.

The results are the same. The same Results as we have SEEN, all over South America before.

This is ALL the same Business. The World See's it too. It does NOT MATTER, the Reasons Given by Them.
They will LIE, anyway about Their Reasons. Just as IS Happening, Right Now.

NO MATTER WHAT, PEOPLE NEED TO OPEN THEIR EYES AND SEE THE TRUTH.

















Meanwhile.....The Progression continues.....



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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Thu Jun 28, 2012, 11:46 PM

68. GOP/NRA gun nut witch hunters can kiss it

yup

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 01:47 AM

76. Keep telling it, don't let go of this.

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Response to goodhue (Original post)


Response to goodhue (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 09:26 AM

83. Bullets in the chest are more "hurtful" than anything Clang1 put up here

By chance, today's jury contained DU gungeoneers.

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #83)


Response to lang1 (Reply #88)


Response to goodhue (Original post)

Fri Jun 29, 2012, 04:47 PM

86. Link to Katherine Eban on Current TV . . .

“Let me put it this way,” says Eban. “I did have an agent who said to me on the record — and, you know, it was a quote that didn’t ultimately make the cut — but who said that she felt that the Republican Congress was manipulating and misusing his death for political gain and one of the reasons she chose to speak out is because she felt that was unforgivable.”

http://current.com/shows/viewpoint/videos/has-agent-terrys-death-been-exploited-for-political-gain-in-the-fast-and-furious-scandal/

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Tue Jul 3, 2012, 07:32 PM

101. I'm sorry... I know I don't have all the facts... but,,,

 

Is there a chance.. that if Holder and his law enforcement machine... had not been so busy busting elderly cancer patients for Medical MJ.. that he might have focused his attention elsewhere?

I could be wrong.. but it seems that as soon as Big Pharma announced their intention of marketing a MJ Pill.... Obama/Holder cracked down on MJ clinics in California.

At least that is what it seems.. don't know if it is true or not.. but....

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Wed Jul 4, 2012, 08:44 AM

104. Great read

On Feb. 4, 2011, the Justice Department sent a letter to Sen. Grassley saying that the allegations of gun walking in Fast and Furious were false and that ATF always tried to interdict weapons. A month later, Grassley countered with what appeared to be slam-dunk proof that ATF had indeed walked guns. "

lease explain how the denials in the Justice Department's Feb. 4, 2011 letter to me can be squared with the evidence," Grassley wrote, attaching damning case reports that he contended "proved that ATF allowed guns to 'walk.'" The case and agent names were redacted, but the reports were not from Fast and Furious. They came entirely from Dodson's Fernandez case.




THIS, however, is chilling:


As Voth waited for the police, he checked his e-mail and found an anonymous threat, sent minutes earlier: "You God-damned stupid 'Yes-Man' who does not have either the morals, or the intelligence, to realize that allowing this 'Fast and Furious' operation would result in unnecessary, unjustified deaths: MAY YOU EAT SHIT AND DIE." Later his wife found a strange car outside their house and an angry post on the Internet listing their home address. Voth confidentially shared his concern about that post in a meeting with two senior ATF officials, only to find an account of the meeting on the Sipsey Street blog within 24 hours.

The ATF's office of operations security investigated the threats to Voth. A confidential report on March 29, 2011, concluded, "ATF 'insiders' are the number one threat to GS Voth and his family." The report cited "at least six individuals," whom it did not name, who had "personal agendas to undermine the credibility of ATF supervisors and members of management as retribution for (Voth's) operational shortcomings." The report cited the two blogs and concluded that "the malicious intent of insiders" had led directly to Voth's becoming the target of a "nation-wide…libel campaign."

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Response to underpants (Reply #104)

Wed Jul 4, 2012, 11:36 AM

106. Stay-behinds. Moles.

Those six unnamed individuals sound like Bush-era stay-behinds with an explicit mission to undermine not Voth, but the Obama Administration.

Your quote above suggests to me that they were protecting an operation of some sort, not merely intimidating a dissenter through testoster-office politics.

Maybe that's the other shoe I keep expecting to drop. I've assumed that the feds have been developing a case of their own ever since the Democrats produced a minority report from within Issa's Committee.

I can also see the utility of holding out on the documents, in hopes of forcing the Supreme Court to either let President Obama off the chain, or to toss a future Republican President's most valuable scandal-control tool into the trash.

But along with that, the Obama Administration may be looking to nail the hell out of Rove's people inside federal agencies. Perhaps by busting the Republicans for trying to manufacture a scandal?

That would be too good to be true.

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Response to sofa king (Reply #106)

Wed Jul 4, 2012, 11:51 AM

108. The whole thing has always smelled like a W/Cheney mole operation

Why the sudden whistleblowing when "Project Gunrunner" was created in 2005 and initiated with "Wide Receiver" in 2006???

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Response to underpants (Reply #104)

Wed Jul 4, 2012, 03:30 PM

112. Chilling, indeed.

You also have to remember that the guy who pushed the whole conspiracy theory from the start was a right-wing blogger/militia member named Mike Vanderboegh -- the same guy that incited acts of vandalism against Democratic offices after the Health Care Reform vote. Right-wing crazies, and particularly the gun nuts, are not shy about using violence and intimidation to accomplish political ends.

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Response to goodhue (Original post)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 03:11 PM

122. Fortune follow-up story . . .

Fast and Furious follow up: The ATF and gun stores
July 3, 2012: 4:11 PM ET

More on the Fortune investigation that revealed that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels.

By Katherine Eban, contributor

FORTUNE -- Since Fortune published "The Truth about the Fast and Furious Scandal" on June 27, thousands of comments have been posted on Fortune.com either praising or vilifying the article. Among the questions often raised by critics of the article (including Sen. Charles Grassley) concern assertions that the ATF encouraged gun dealers to sell weapons to known traffickers. If the ATF was encouraging such sales, the argument goes, it would be proof that the agency had a policy to allow weapons to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels, the core contention in what is known as the Fast and Furious scandal.

In the six months of investigations that led Fortune to conclude that the ATF had no policy to intentionally permit weapons to be trafficked, we examined 2,000 pages of ATF records, Congressional reports and testimony, and interviewed 39 people involved in or knowledgeable about the case. That body of evidence shows the ATF did not have a policy of encouraging gun dealers to sell to traffickers. Until now, the alleged encouragement of gun-dealers has not been a central focus of the Fast and Furious scandal. As a result, we did not address those points in the article. However, given the interest in this question, we thought it was worth taking readers through the evidence on this point.

* * *

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/07/03/fast-and-furious-follow-up-the-atf-and-gun-stores/

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