President Putin 'probably' approved Litvinenko murder
Source: BBC
The murder of ex-Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko in 2006 in the UK was "probably" approved by President Vladimir Putin, a public inquiry finds.
Mr Putin is likely to have signed off the poisoning of Mr Litvinenko with polonium-210 in part due to personal "antagonism" between the pair, it said.
Mr Litvinenko's widow Marina welcomed the report, calling for a travel ban on Mr Putin and sanctions on Russia.
The Russian Foreign Ministry said the inquiry had been "politicised".
(end snip)
Read more: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35370819
Turbineguy
(37,206 posts)"You astonish me, Watson!"
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)drm604
(16,230 posts)You may disagree with the results of that inquiry, but it is much more than innuendo.
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)It's all innuendo. No smoking gun, no fingerprints, no witnesses, even.
That's not a trial, that's a PR campaign.
drm604
(16,230 posts)It's 329 pages, so I haven't read the whole thing, but I have read the summary. It's more than innuendo.
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)Otherwise, it's just BS from the aggrieved.
drm604
(16,230 posts)so they must think they have something actionable. The trail of polonium contamination matches the movements of Lugovoy and Kovtun. This includes heavy contamination, including contamination of a teapot, at the Pine Bar where the two met with Litvinenko and where he was probably poisoned. He was likely also poisoned at a meeting at Erinys which he, Lugovoy, and Kovtun attended. The meeting room there was contaminated. There's much more but I'm not going to sit and type it all. It's in the report. Seriously, look over the report. It's much more than just innuendo or "BS from the aggrieved".
tabasco
(22,974 posts)none so deaf as those who do not wish to hear.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Nice values
uhnope
(6,419 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)?uuid=9xW79MBPEeWYyH-reGd9UQ
?uuid=8WvhsMBPEeWYyH-reGd9UQ
But it is highly unlikely that his killers will face justice any time soon for an assassination that a British parliamentary committee has described as a miniature nuclear attack on the streets of London.
British officials on Thursday reiterated requests for Russia to extradite the two alleged killers, Andrei Lugovoi and Dimitry Kovtun. Yet even with the new findings, Russia does not extradite its citizens, and Lugovoi has been rewarded in the years since the killing with a seat in parliament.
....
Although the inquiry stops short of conclusively blaming Putin noting the opaque nature of Kremlin politics it finds that there is strong circumstantial evidence that the Russian State was responsible for Mr. Litvinenkos death. And citing the high-stakes nature of an operation to assassinate a former KGB officer on British soil, it finds that the operation would probably not have gone ahead without Putins direct approval.
The FSB operation to kill Mr. Litvinenko was probably approved by Mr. Nikolai Patrushev then head of the FSB and also by President Putin, the report concludes.
I think you'd be better off not playing the "Nothing to see here, move along" card.
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)There is no connection except slander to Putin.
If you think Vladimir Putin would send two truly incompetent, bumbling, anything but secret assassins out to London to do this, you have to reconcile it with his aptitude in everything else he does well.
No, whoever launched that assassination didn't run it by Putin.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Proserpina
(2,352 posts)much freer than US elections. And more parties. There's no DWS gatekeeper to suppress the opposition.
Legislative seats are not "awarded" by Putin. Unlike the Democratic nomination, which is under attack for complete corporate takeover.
MADem
(135,425 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)We would not even allow Carter's election monitoring org into our country because we knew we would not be able to comply with clean election criteria. Get your head out of the sand.
MADem
(135,425 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)Just on a common sense level this doesn't stack up to what the narrative is saying.
But given that we are in the midst of a huge propaganda war it is really naive be led by political narratives.
Our press LIES constantly and yet we have people here who are still content to believe what are far more complicated narratives around foreign events and countries. There are bad guys in the both the US and in Russia. There are plenty of real honest stories that happen all the time in both countries. But not this story. It is part of a larger effort; honesty and transparency are way down the list.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Took you two seconds to turn up!!! Hard at work!
By "our press" you mean the Russian, government controlled press, no doubt.
See, the problem with your assertion is that this is being covered all over the world, and everyone's saying the same damn thing--except, of course, your Pootie Poot's press.
Putin ordered that execution.
Deal with it. Stop defending that bloodthirsty, gay-hating dictator.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Sorry but anyone with half a brain certainly understands that a defected spy has many enemies. It would be the same here if one of our own spies defected. He/she would be hated by many rank and file. NO LINK came out of this. This "Inquiry" even uses "probably" "likely" in it's own analysis and there is no substance to the allegations (at least as they have been presented).
I don't know why seeing geopolitics for what it is and being well read enough to know that our media is (itself) full of dishonest narratives should be looked at with suspicion. Maybe too many are dumbed down these days and susceptible to being used?
I am far more concerned about propaganda in our own media and where it is leading us than I am worried about whether or not heads of a foreign government ordered a targeted killing.
MADem
(135,425 posts)You wasted no time, did you?
Faster than a speeding bullet, you are!
A defected spy only has one set of enemies, and they all come from the place of his defection--you know, the place run by that Russian strongman dictator, Putin.
Please. You're a fine one to throw "half a brain" insults at people. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to draw the logical conclusion that Putin wanted this guy dead.
Judge Judy would say "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining!"
You're trying way too hard, you know...! LOL @ propaganda in our own media -- you should be concerned, Putin has consolidated all the media outlets under one agency. There IS no "independent media" in Mother Russia! Darn the bad luck.....
newthinking
(3,982 posts)You post one hell of a lot and you are going to tell someone else they are all over something?
Buh bye.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I'm not incessantly praising one of the world's most brutal, spy killing, gay hating dictators, and playing like he is heading up a democracy.
The guy is a strongman dictator. So yeah, buh bye...or maybe Do svidaniya is more to the point~!
Tarheel_Dem
(31,207 posts)On Thu Jan 21, 2016, 09:47 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
I don't post constant love notes about Vladimir.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1321609
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Nobody is posting "Love notes". The other poster may be wrong but calling another liberal out based on different understanding of events is not civil.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jan 21, 2016, 09:51 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Nice try, Putin apologist. Go away please.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Oy
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: nah
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's a bit much, but no enough to delete it.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I agree with the poster. Leave It.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This is a personal attack
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
MADem
(135,425 posts)Tarheel_Dem
(31,207 posts)Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)Based on available evidence. The two prime suspects are still safely ensconced in Russia which refuses to cooperate. It's the best available, and they wouldn't say Putin probably ordered the assassination if they weren't damn sure he did.
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)A public inquiry of this nature is de facto trial by innuendo, for the purpose of furthering the meme of the day.
SkyDaddy7
(6,045 posts)Incredibly sad...But still funny.
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Some people like BS for breakfast. Not me...."
BS is often unsupported by objective evidence... much as your own allegations.
However, I realize we often rationalize our breakfasts as somehow more pure than the morning meals of others when it's merely the same thing arranged differently on the plate.
I certainly hope you enjoy what you allege to be toast and coffee!!!
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)I want fingerprints. Or are you a hypocrite?
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)You can look those up, if you are really curious. I have to go to work.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)You are guilty of what you accuse others of.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)uhnope
(6,419 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)Bradical79
(4,490 posts)with Western media?
It's pretty obvious why those with liberal values don't like Putin and you're on a liberal forum.
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)which was over 50 years ago. The world has changed: the US is much worse, the USSR is gone. Try to keep up!
uhnope
(6,419 posts)this has nothing to do with ideology like McCarthyism. You're right, the USSR is dead and the US doesn't give a shit about ideology anymore. The US will work with anybody. The US gets along pretty well with China and trades with them like crazy, for one example.
This is about a nutcase dictator whose ambitions of power has led Russia into conflict with the rest of the world and into worse and worse economic conditions while educated Russian flee the country as fast as they can.
Do you think the world's revulsion at North Korea is also "McCarthyism"?
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)If Putin were a nutcase, which he demonstrably isn't...
If Putin had imperial ambitions, which he doesn't....
THEN you might be able to equate Putin with North Korea's head of state.
Otherwise, you are engaged in McCarthyism.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)unlike most of the Putin supporters (why you want to do that on a progressive forum is the $6 question) but that makes it no less cracked and disgusting.
Nutcase? I think a world leader that is obsessed with showing off his body while playing cowboy and mountain man is just one way he qualifies.
Imperial? Putin's intent on regaining Soviet glory and obvious work to create puppet states says otherwise.
Dictator? Um, that's the most obvious one. Finagling the system to get around term limits while systematically taking over the media as your opponents are killed one by one--well, let's leave it there, and get back to me when he leaves office.
But again, you're wrong since McCarthyism is about ideology. As the BFF situation between Trump and Putin shows that the US has no ideological problem with Putin. The world has a problem with a ruthless dictator of a one-powerful nation trying to cause problems again.
Now, are you going to tell us that Putin's regime isn't using homophobia, isn't taking over the media, and isn't stealing the economy blind (all parts of fascism)? We wait for your reply.
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)uhnope
(6,419 posts)Do you not know about Putin's consecutive-term dodge? The homophobic laws? My god, then you don't even qualify to discuss the subject.
Or is that just your way to avoid the subject?
Whatevs.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)that Putin is seen as a complete asshole? That's adorable.
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)The radioactive trail of polonium went all the way from the London hotel to the Russian aeroplane. Are you saying they just give out radioactive material for free in Russia?
Response to Bad Dog (Reply #27)
newthinking This message was self-deleted by its author.
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)Litvinenko was about to testify against the Russian mafia in Spain, he'd also publically accused Putin of blowing up apartment blocks in Moscow, and more bizarrely of being a paedophile. The FSB and the Russian mafia aren't exactly at odds. Polonium poisoning is not sloppy at all, and they'd probably have got away with it if they'd tried it out in a country without such sophisticated forensic techniques as Britain, ( or France or America for that matter.)
Russia has a track record for assassinating those who make life difficult for Putin like Yandarbiyev, ex Chechen leader blown up in Qatar.
Litvinenko was definitely poisoned by Andrei Lugovoi and Dmitry Kovtun, they left a radioactive trail throughout London, putting the general population at risk.
Could such an assassination have taken place without Putin's say so? Of course it couldn't.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)"Mafia"s throughout the world have partnered and moved into "legitimate" business. Certainly in Russia there are local links to the mafia that still are out there (as there are in European countries still also) but the "mafia" have been heavily cracked down on and moved underground (one of the reasons people there like the current administrations, during the Yeltsin years the Mafia was out in the open and much more porous).
Of course if all you hear is from our incredibly "accurate" media you will never believe that, but those who have been there in recent years know that the reality in the country is quite different than the media portrayal.
Russia is no "paragon", but neither is it at all like much of the narratives spun in our "Free" press.
When you travel outside the country and really try to understand other countries outside of our "lenses" you learn that other societies are complex. Societies all evolve in different ways and at different rates. Corruption is just as predominant here as there, it is just better couched in accepted formats (not transparent), concentrated in places of power, and less seen directly. "corruption indexes" are based on "perception" .
I never would have understood that had I not spent significant time outside our borders and tried hard to to leave behind my preconceptions at home.
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)Litvinenko's widow had a real uphill struggle getting this inquiry in the first place. Cameron would rather have turned a blind eye, and now they're all worried about repercussions in Syria.
It's blindingly obvious that Putin was behind this, and the only people who think otherwise are Russian propagandists or cowards who are terrified of IS and would rather make a deal with the devil.
You make a lot of assumptions, you answer people's questions for them and you assume I've never travelled. I've been all over the place, and I recognise BS when someone's trying to serve it up to me.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)The history seems to not be part of the inquiry. Did they mention that Litvineko accused Scaramella (not the two mentioned in this inquiry) almost until the end?
I am still learning the history through searching but it appears there is MUCH more to this and the "inquiry" was indeed quite led to a particular conclusion.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/the-litvinenko-murder-scaramella-the-italian-connection-426827.html
Interestingly Mr. Scaramella was a Nuclear Expert and had links to the CIA...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Scaramella
I don't think anyone who reads the press/government narratives is going to really know the whole of this.
Response to Proserpina (Reply #2)
LanternWaste This message was self-deleted by its author.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)No surprise here.
Botany
(70,281 posts)Why Donald Trump Loves Vladimir Putin
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/12/donald-trump-putin-narcissism
pampango
(24,692 posts)A British inquiry into the high-profile case of Alexander Litvinenko, a Russian former Federal Security Service (FSB) officer poisoned in London in 2006, concluded that he was murdered by two Russians, probably following FSB instructions that were probably approved by President Vladimir Putin, the report by retired High Court judge Robert Owen, published in London on Thursday, said.
The evidence indicated that State Duma deputy Andrei Lugovoi, and entrepreneur Dmitry Kovtun deliberately poisoned Litvinenko with tea laced with polonium 210, a rare and toxic isotope.
The FSB operation to kill Mr. Litvinenko was probably approved by Mr. Patrushev [then director of the FSB] and also by President Putin, the report said, published on the inquiry's official website on Thursday. Litvinenko, a critic of the Kremlin, accused Putin of his murder in his deathbed statement a charge the Russian president has denied. Lugovoi and Kovtun have also denied the charges numerous times.
Russian authorities refused to extradite the two men to Britain, and, according to an unidentified source within Russian law enforcement cited by the Interfax news agency, will not do so in the future, nor prosecute Lugovoi and Kovtun in Russia.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/british-inquiry-finds-putin-probably-approved-litvinenko-murder/556453.html
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Putin is being criticized. Surely they can't be long...
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)McCarthyism is the practice of making accusations of subversion or treason without proper regard for evidence. It also means "the practice of making unfair allegations or using unfair investigative techniques, especially in order to restrict dissent or political criticism."[1] The term has its origins in the period in the United States known as the Second Red Scare, lasting roughly from 1950 to 1956 and characterized by heightened political repression against communists, as well as a campaign spreading fear of their influence on American institutions and of espionage by Soviet agents. Originally coined to criticize the anti-communist pursuits of Republican U.S. Senator Joseph McCarthy of Wisconsin, "McCarthyism" soon took on a broader meaning, describing the excesses of similar efforts. The term is also now used more generally to describe reckless, unsubstantiated accusations, as well as demagogic attacks on the character or patriotism of political adversaries.
...
Neato. A classic American product.
McCarthyism would die if it wasn't for all the self-righteous accusers and bigots who have to keep feeding their own ego.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)They were blown-up (killed instantly). Russian media reported husband was attacking her and set off a hand grenade. some deaths in that country don't make any sense to me, unless they really are Gov. caused deaths
Bernin
(311 posts)like that here in the States too.
"The body of Ashley Turton, wife of the White House deputy director of legislative affairs Dan Turton, was discovered in a car that was burning in their garage, according to the D.C. Fire Department and the company."
Ashley was a lobbyist for Progress Energy. This happened the week Duke energy bought Progress energy.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)To me that's not similar to a bomb in the car.
b/c high end BMW SUV's just burst into flames at 1mph bumps in the garage all the time.
Sorry, but this incident is fishy as they come. Especially, considering her job and the timing with the acquisition.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)I had a car burn from an electrical fire, was a total insured loss.
Good thing the car wasn't parked in the garage or near the house. That smoke will kill a person, especially if they are passed out totally drunk with " Acute alcohol intoxication" in the car.
Bernin
(311 posts)edited to add:
I have been in more than 20 car wrecks. Many of them the head lights destroyed. Not once did any of those cars catch on fire.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)were you trying to make their gas tanks explode?
Bernin
(311 posts)Most before I was old enough to drive. Never tried to make a gas tank explode.
I have been rear ended in a Ford Pinto. But, it did not catch fire either.
bobthedrummer
(26,083 posts)Look at what happened to Michael Hastings
Bernin
(311 posts)in my mind that you are correct.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)& Hastings was abducted by a UFO, don't you know that?
bobthedrummer
(26,083 posts)uhnope
(6,419 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)It was destroying his marriage. He was also in the midst of a crippling manic episode--according to his BROTHER.
These conspiracy theories are just silly. Black ops? More like black TAR....
Some history here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023983924
Michael Hastings's brother rules out foul play in death; says media sensationalized
his brother's death; and says he saw him the day before and he was in the midst of a manic episode.
This should put the rumors to an end, but of course it won't.
http://www.salon.com/2013/11/05/michael_hastings_life_and_death_a_brothers_reflections/
As I told the police out in L.A., a few days before he died, Mike called me and I got the impression that he was having a manic episode, similar to one he had had 15 years ago, which he had referred to in his writing. At that time, drugs had been involved, and I suspected that might be the case again. I immediately booked a flight to L.A. for the next day, with the thought that maybe I could convince him to come back to Vermont to dry out or (less likely) get him to go to detox/rehab there in L.A. When I got to L.A. and saw him, I immediately realized that he was not going to go willingly. I started to make arrangements with our other brother to fly out and help me possibly force Mike into checking himself into a hospital or detox center. Id thought that I had at least convinced Mike to just stay in his apartment and chill out for the next few days, but he snuck out on me when I was sleeping. He crashed his car before anyone could do anything to help him I ended up telling this all to the police on Tuesday morning, as I was one of the last people to see him alive and I was one of the few people who could really put his behavior on that day in context. ....
And this is his brother talking, someone who knew him, and knew his drug issues:I really rule out foul play entirely. I might have been suspicious if I hadnt been with him the day before he died. After all, he definitely was investigating and writing about a lot of sensitive subjects. But based on being with him and talking to people who were worried about him in the weeks leading up to his death, and being around him when he had had similar problems when he was younger, I was pretty much convinced that he wasnt in danger from any outside agency.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)iandhr
(6,852 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)MattSh
(3,714 posts)That was the conclusion they were expected to come to. And they did.
7962
(11,841 posts)Like ANY of this would be a surprise. Poisoning has long been a favorite way of dealing with their enemies. Oh, wait, I guess the poisoning was REALLY done by someone else to make it LOOK like the russians did it!!
MADem
(135,425 posts)There's always at least one Pootie enthusiast hanging around here. Not sure why, it seems like a lousy duty to pull at the Moskva Keyboard Gangup Brigade (KGB). A lot of the aggressive RT posters have either left or been tombstoned, but there's always one or two.
In the heyday of the Crimea invasion/land grab, there was a lot more activity. Now, we barely get an amusing Pootie picture every few months!
I thought "Putin on a Ritz" was a leap of pure genius....
7962
(11,841 posts)Response to MADem (Reply #56)
Bradical79 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to deminks (Original post)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to deminks (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed