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Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
Sun Nov 29, 2015, 06:22 PM Nov 2015

Israel Defense Minister Says Russian Plane Breached Airspace

Source: Associated Press

JERUSALEM (AP) -- A Russian jet recently penetrated Israeli airspace but was not shot down thanks to an open communication system between the two countries, Israel's defense minister said Sunday as tensions continued to flare between Ankara and Moscow after Turkish troops downed a Russian warplane.

Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon said the plane entered about a mile (1.5 kilometers) into Israeli airspace by "mistake" and immediately turned around back to Syria when the Russians were notified. For two months, Russia has been carrying out airstrikes to support Syrian President Bashar Assad.

Yaalon told Israel Radio that after Russia announced its air campaign in Syria, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, along with his military chief of staff and other officials, met with Russian President Vladimir Putin. He said Israel later opened a channel for coordination with Russia "to prevent misunderstandings."

He said there has been one incident so far of a Russian plane entering Israeli airspace and it was "immediately corrected in the communications channel." He didn't say when it occurred.

Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_RUSSIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-11-29-12-40-10

79 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Israel Defense Minister Says Russian Plane Breached Airspace (Original Post) Purveyor Nov 2015 OP
thats why we need to keep Russia out of the Middle East: ericson00 Nov 2015 #1
The best thing happening in the ME is Russia's involvement. eom Purveyor Nov 2015 #3
don't drop your pompoms uhnope Dec 2015 #58
Russia seems to want to instigate wider conflict and spread open warfare as much as possible uhnope Nov 2015 #4
As opposed to the present? MFrohike Dec 2015 #57
"How dare they!" - wailed Bibi. forest444 Nov 2015 #2
Too bad about that USS Liberty thing, they only killed 34 Americans and wounded 171 more. marble falls Nov 2015 #5
your masters will be proud of this post 6chars Nov 2015 #6
The Master of truth fingrin Nov 2015 #8
Newbie Bernin Nov 2015 #9
As will yours The Second Stone Nov 2015 #10
That was 50 years ago oberliner Nov 2015 #11
So unjustified attacks plus 50 years equals irrelevance? The Second Stone Nov 2015 #12
This message was self-deleted by its author LanternWaste Nov 2015 #24
Darn, holding on to an anti-Semitic grudge for almost 50 years is amazing. George II Dec 2015 #78
I'm a bit sore at the Japanese for Pearl Harbor, the Germans for the Holocaust The Second Stone Dec 2015 #79
And found to be an accident 6chars Nov 2015 #14
It was conveniently written off as an accident ... mallard Nov 2015 #15
And everyone knows leftynyc Nov 2015 #18
I remember that clip flamingdem Dec 2015 #71
Everybody saw it leftynyc Dec 2015 #72
CT 6chars Nov 2015 #35
You are accepting of other's abstracts of what the event was: marble falls Nov 2015 #21
CT 6chars Nov 2015 #36
Accidents don't result in dozens dead and over a hundred injured The Second Stone Nov 2015 #27
CT 6chars Nov 2015 #37
Like Sec of State Dean Rusk and the surviving sailors The Second Stone Nov 2015 #40
oo woo woo 6chars Nov 2015 #44
The evidence is clear and unambiguous that there was a 30 minute attack The Second Stone Nov 2015 #45
Israel is not really running the entire world and controlling people's thoughts. 6chars Nov 2015 #46
I never stated that Israel ran the world or anything close The Second Stone Nov 2015 #51
What conspiracy are you thinking of? Israel was making a point. marble falls Dec 2015 #61
Do you believe this crap leftynyc Nov 2015 #17
Maybe you'd like to read up on this: marble falls Nov 2015 #20
I don't give a shit leftynyc Nov 2015 #22
Ah, going straight to name calling, eh? The Second Stone Nov 2015 #28
Spare me the bullshit leftynyc Nov 2015 #30
You dismiss all inquiries that you don't agree with, starting with the BBC one The Second Stone Nov 2015 #41
There is no genocide of palestinians Mosby Dec 2015 #66
Again, shame on you and your foul temper and attitude. And especially your closed mind. marble falls Dec 2015 #59
Yawwwwnnnnn leftynyc Dec 2015 #63
Nothing you'd understand, put your brain back into rest mode. When the posting here dumbs down.... marble falls Dec 2015 #64
LOL leftynyc Dec 2015 #65
Except for every single report that finds it not to be an accident The Second Stone Nov 2015 #29
LOL leftynyc Nov 2015 #31
One man with the BBC thinks the BBC is biased against Israel The Second Stone Nov 2015 #32
He's the former CHAIRMAN of BBC leftynyc Nov 2015 #34
You can't convince a conspiracy theorist of anything 6chars Nov 2015 #38
I don't give a shit leftynyc Nov 2015 #39
That's an apology for genocide The Second Stone Nov 2015 #43
Keep using that leftynyc Nov 2015 #49
The convention on genocide is the definition, which you refuse to even read The Second Stone Nov 2015 #52
I've had enough leftynyc Nov 2015 #54
Well I haven't had enough of citing the convention against genocide The Second Stone Nov 2015 #56
Yes, he is one person entitled to voice his opinion and viewpoint The Second Stone Nov 2015 #42
Go ahead and discount leftynyc Nov 2015 #47
The guy in that video (Dr. Hajo Meyer) was an anti-zionist and conspiracy theorist Mosby Dec 2015 #68
That is no surprise to leftynyc Dec 2015 #69
I never denied he was the former CHAIRMAN The Second Stone Dec 2015 #75
The head of the BBC commissioned a study Mosby Dec 2015 #67
Lovely they've already spent leftynyc Dec 2015 #70
And why wouldn't they be entitled to make those findings The Second Stone Dec 2015 #73
Because the BBC is a goverment agency of sorts Mosby Dec 2015 #74
Then sue for a copy if they are supposed to be transparent The Second Stone Dec 2015 #76
Keep it up, sunshine leftynyc Nov 2015 #48
You pretty clearly do give a shit The Second Stone Nov 2015 #50
Care about you? leftynyc Nov 2015 #53
I never asked you to care about me or turn the board over to me The Second Stone Nov 2015 #55
Your claim was that I leftynyc Dec 2015 #62
Care to explain that? Who's your daddy? marble falls Nov 2015 #19
My dad died leftynyc Nov 2015 #23
Thank you for being dismissive of my family lost in the Holocaust. Your father would be so proud... marble falls Dec 2015 #60
In 1990 former Sec of State The Second Stone Nov 2015 #33
Wasn't that 48 years ago? George II Dec 2015 #77
Yesterday fingrin Nov 2015 #7
So why can't Russian pilots fly right? truthisfreedom Nov 2015 #13
The 'violation' most probably involved crossing mallard Nov 2015 #16
Russian pilots seem particularly inept at navigation. LanternWaste Nov 2015 #25
Post removed Post removed Nov 2015 #26
 

ericson00

(2,707 posts)
1. thats why we need to keep Russia out of the Middle East:
Sun Nov 29, 2015, 06:24 PM
Nov 2015

they meddled in it enough during the Cold War, arming Israel's enemies (which included Hafez Al-Assad, who preceded Bashar to the Syrian throne), Nasser (a "Hero of the Soviet Union" and a dressed-up Communist), and the PLO.

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
57. As opposed to the present?
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 12:27 AM
Dec 2015

Russia's there to carve out a defensible state for the Alawites and to show off hardware for sale. All this "instigate conflict" stuff sounds like ridiculous 1950s-style paranoia, as well as just being absurd. In a country with a pretty ruthless warlord (Assad), openly genocidal maniacs ("Christians to Beirut, Alawites to the grave" sound familiar?), apocalyptic psychopaths (the overhyped JV team), and a couple million ethnic/religious minorities banding together for protection from the rest, it's completely mindboggling how you can make such a claim. Putin's Russia may not be the good guys, but they're far from the worst bunch in Syria these days.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
10. As will yours
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 12:29 AM
Nov 2015

The Israelis killed those US sailors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

Nice to see they didn't kill the Russian pilot.

The US is Israel's ally. Israel is not the US's ally.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
12. So unjustified attacks plus 50 years equals irrelevance?
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 01:47 AM
Nov 2015

I don't think so.

But this is a free country. You are entitled to your opinions.

Response to The Second Stone (Reply #12)

George II

(67,782 posts)
78. Darn, holding on to an anti-Semitic grudge for almost 50 years is amazing.
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 10:57 AM
Dec 2015

Beyond the attack on that ship itself, have you researched any of the aftermath of that incident, or are you afraid that your disdain for Israel may be shaken?

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
79. I'm a bit sore at the Japanese for Pearl Harbor, the Germans for the Holocaust
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 02:55 PM
Dec 2015

the US for wiping out Native Americans and in general being racist, the NRA for their enabling the weekly (now it is almost every week) school shootings.

I hold Israel to the same moral standards I hold everyone else. That's why I'm worked up about the genocidal policy of driving out by all means, including killing, of Palestinians, the attack on the Liberty, the killing of Rachel Corrie, and on, and on, and on.

Not every criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. But if you wish to descend into ad hominems, you'll go there alone.

6chars

(3,967 posts)
14. And found to be an accident
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 02:08 AM
Nov 2015

After exhaustive study. There is a slanderous conspiracy theory that the government doesn't take seriously but that people of a certain political and social persuasion like to repeat as often as possible. Those people know what they are doing and why.

mallard

(568 posts)
15. It was conveniently written off as an accident ...
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:06 AM
Nov 2015

A BBC piece on the Liberty incident recently showed how the Israelis knew exactly who they were attacking, how they cut off the Liberty from communications with 'inside' help, and how the total sabotage was intended to win American support by false flag attack. You should either review the record more carefully - including released communications between pilots and their dispatchers - or stop promoting a serious cover-up.

Mind you, moderators here won't tolerate any suggestions of similar behavior by Israelis, dancing art students or whomever was released from further investigation on 9/11.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
18. And everyone knows
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 08:50 AM
Nov 2015

how the BBC is so completely impartial on the issue of Israel. So much so their former Chairman is even calling them out on their appalling coverage:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3283850/BBC-shown-inexcusable-bias-Israel-says-former-chairman-Michael-Grade.html

You want to bring up the Liberty? I'll bring up that the only reason Trump is getting any traction at all on his "Muslims were celebrating 9/11" crap is because the PALESTINIANS were actually shown dancing while everyone else was showing sympathy and empathy.

flamingdem

(39,304 posts)
71. I remember that clip
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 12:02 PM
Dec 2015

and sometimes think that is what Trump is referring too - but who could forget it was in the West Bank.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
72. Everybody saw it
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 12:10 PM
Dec 2015

and it's what allowing donald to lie his fucking ass off about the people in NJ - people don't make distinctions - they saw Muslims dancing and they don't give a shit where they're from - only that they were celebrating.

marble falls

(56,358 posts)
21. You are accepting of other's abstracts of what the event was:
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 10:14 AM
Nov 2015

Try this:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
Aftermath of the attack
The 6th Fleet flagship, USS Little Rock standing by Liberty

According to transcripts of intercepted radio communications, published by the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA), at about 2:30 pm, near the beginning of the torpedo boat attack, two IAF helicopters were dispatched to Liberty's location. The helicopters arrived at about 3:10 pm, about 35 minutes after a torpedo hit the ship. After arriving, one of the helicopter pilots was asked, by his ground-based controller, to verify that the ship was flying an American flag. The helicopters conducted a brief search for crew members of the ship who may have fallen overboard during the air attack. No one was found. The helicopters left the ship at about 3:20 pm.

At about 4 pm, two hours after the attack began, Israel informed the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv that its military forces had mistakenly attacked a U.S. Navy ship. When the ship was "confirmed to be American" the torpedo boats returned at about 4:40 pm to offer help;[47] it was refused by the Liberty. Later, Israel provided a helicopter to fly U.S. naval attaché Commander Castle to the ship.[48] (pp. 32,34)

In Washington, President Lyndon B. Johnson had received word from the Joint Chiefs of Staff that Liberty had been torpedoed by an unknown vessel at 9:50 am eastern time. Johnson assumed that the Soviets were involved, and hotlined Moscow with news of the attack and the dispatch of jets from Saratoga. He chose not to make any public statements and delegated this task to Phil G. Goulding, who was an Assistant Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs at a time.[49]

Soon afterward, the Israelis said that they had mistakenly attacked the ship. The Johnson administration conveyed "strong dismay" to Israeli ambassador Avraham Harman. Meanwhile, apologies were soon sent by Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkol, Foreign Minister Abba Eban, and chargé d'affaires Efraim Evron. Within 48 hours, Israel offered to compensate the victims and their families.[42]

Though Liberty was severely damaged, with a 39 ft wide by 24 ft high (12 m x 7.3 m) hole and a twisted keel, her crew kept her afloat, and she was able to leave the area under her own power. Liberty was later met by the destroyers USS Davis and USS Massey, and the cruiser USS Little Rock. Medical personnel were transferred to Liberty, and she was escorted to Malta, where she was given interim repairs. After these were completed in July 1967, Liberty returned to the U.S. She was decommissioned in June 1968 and struck from the Naval Vessel Register. Liberty was transferred to United States Maritime Administration (MARAD) in December 1970 and sold for scrap in 1973.

From the start, the response to Israeli statements of mistaken identity ranged between frank disbelief and unquestioning acceptance within the administration in Washington. A communication to the Israeli Ambassador on 10 June, by Secretary Rusk stated, among other things: "At the time of the attack, the USS Liberty was flying the American flag and its identification was clearly indicated in large white letters and numerals on its hull. ... Experience demonstrates that both the flag and the identification number of the vessel were readily visible from the air.... Accordingly, there is every reason to believe that the USS Liberty was identified, or at least her nationality determined, by Israeli aircraft approximately one hour before the attack. ... The subsequent attack by the torpedo boats, substantially after the vessel was or should have been identified by Israeli military forces, manifests the same reckless disregard for human life."[50][51]
National Cryptologic Memorial. Many names are of those killed on 8 June 1967

George Lenczowski notes: "It was significant that, in contrast to his secretary of state, President Johnson fully accepted the Israeli version of the tragic incident." He notes that Johnson himself only included one small paragraph about the Liberty in his autobiography,[52] in which he accepted the Israeli explanation of "error", but also minimized the whole affair and distorted the actual number of dead and wounded, by lowering them from 34 to 10 and 171 to 100, respectively. Lenczowski further states: “It seems Johnson was more interested in avoiding a possible confrontation with the Soviet Union, ...than in restraining Israel.”[53]

McGonagle received the Medal of Honor, the highest U.S. medal, for his actions.[54][55] The Medal of Honor is generally presented by the President of the United States in the White House,[55][56] but this time it was awarded at the Washington Navy Yard by the Secretary of the Navy in an unpublicized ceremony, breaking with established tradition.[55]

Other Liberty sailors received decorations for their actions during and after the attack, but most of the award citations omitted mention of Israel as the perpetrator. In 2009, however, a Silver Star awarded to crewmember Terry Halbardier, who braved machine-gun and cannon fire to repair a damaged antenna that restored the ship's communications, in the award citation named Israel as the attacker.[57]

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
27. Accidents don't result in dozens dead and over a hundred injured
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 03:14 PM
Nov 2015

during a half hour attack. The surviving sailors have never accepted the "accident" excuse, and the Israeli pilots were never interviewed outside of the supervision of their commanders.

If you think I am being "slanderous", by all means, sue me. But you should probably realize that I wrote it, and did not speak it. Slander is spoken, libel is written.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
40. Like Sec of State Dean Rusk and the surviving sailors
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 06:32 PM
Nov 2015

the cover up is a conspiracy theory itself, and those who aren't propagandizing for Israel know what they are doing and why too. The NSA still hasn't released all recordings.

6chars

(3,967 posts)
44. oo woo woo
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 06:49 PM
Nov 2015

this is what it is with conspiracy theorists - the fact that the evidence doesn't match the conspiracy theory is just proof that the conspiracy goes even deeper.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
45. The evidence is clear and unambiguous that there was a 30 minute attack
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 06:58 PM
Nov 2015

with dozens dead and well over a hundred wounded, that the US flag was flying prominently at all times and that the tapes of the incident still have not been released, only redacted and incomplete transcripts.

It is not a conspiracy theory to accuse Israel of the attack on the Liberty. It is a fact.

That I, like most people who examine the incident, don't buy that it was not intentional, is hardly a conspiracy theory, I think that Israel was lying about their intentions when they claimed they mistook it for an Egyptian ship. It was flying the American flag, looked exactly like an American ship and nothing like an Egyptian ship.

That supporters of the Israeli attack on the liberty would seize on one dissenting voice at the BBC to dismiss the BBC's entire case of facts of the liberty shows just how desperate and illogical they will go in their propaganda to support the intentional attack on the ship.

Yeah, we're still really mad about it. And mad about the treatment of Palestinians. And mad about attacking the US President before Congress, and mad about Jonathan Pollard and Israel's long lies about who he was working for. Amazing that Israel eventually admitted that Pollard worked for them, revealing that Israel is most willing to lie about operations against the United States.

6chars

(3,967 posts)
46. Israel is not really running the entire world and controlling people's thoughts.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:12 PM
Nov 2015

But I can understand how a person could think that.

Who really shot JFK?

Who faked the lunar landing?

What about area 57?

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
51. I never stated that Israel ran the world or anything close
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:53 PM
Nov 2015

I stated that they attacked the USS Liberty, which is an undisputed fact. They claim it was all a mistake, I think they are liars.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
17. Do you believe this crap
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 08:43 AM
Nov 2015

An ACCIDENT - found to be an ACCIDENT with every single inquiry into the tragedy and they still bring this up today as if it has anything to do with anything. You usually only see this crap on stormfront or other white power sites and here it is, not getting alerted on. DU should be sooooo proud of the company they're keeping.

marble falls

(56,358 posts)
20. Maybe you'd like to read up on this:
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 10:06 AM
Nov 2015
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

Only Israel and LBJ thought it was "cleared" up. The Navy didn't. Secy of Defense didn't, Secy of State didn't.

Go ahead and read it and you won't have to resort to insults. Shame on you. Only one out of many official inquiries "cleared" Israel and that was the one LBJ went with. For your information I have Jewish blood from both sides of my family and I had family from my father's (my grandmother's cousins, aunts and uncles) side lost in the Holocaust.
 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
22. I don't give a shit
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 10:26 AM
Nov 2015

whose blood you have in your veins. When the topic is THOROUGHLY UNRELATED, only stormfront types EVER bring up the Liberty. You want to start a thread on that 50 year old tragic accident, knock yourself out. When you bring it up on a thread about something entirely different, every person on this board knows what you're up to. You're not fooling anyone.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
28. Ah, going straight to name calling, eh?
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 03:28 PM
Nov 2015

Yes, you pretty clearly don't give a shit about others outside your little group.

You say only "stormfront types EVER" bring up the Liberty." Some of us are still very sore over these killings over 50 years later, and it is not because we are "stormfront types". It's because American sailors were attacked and killed by people who lie when they claim to be our allies.

You pretty clearly don't give a shit about the lives of American sailors and spend an awful lot of time pointing fingers about this "stormfront" thing. Projecting much?

Yes, a lot of us are still very sore over the Liberty incident. And we're even more incensed over the genocide of Palestinians.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
30. Spare me the bullshit
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 03:38 PM
Nov 2015

Every inquiry has found it to be a tragic accident. Your outrage means nothing at all to me but continue to beat your chest about it - it will surely lead to.....not really sure why you brought it up in a thread thoroughly unrelated. Nah - I know why you did, so does everyone else. It must really burn your ass that 70% of Americans continue to think positive about a country you're convinced is not an ally.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/181652/seven-americans-continue-view-israel-favorably.aspx

And really? Try looking up the definition of genocide. I can guarantee populations don't continue to increase when there is one going on. Hyperbole doesn't help your case even a little bit.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
41. You dismiss all inquiries that you don't agree with, starting with the BBC one
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 06:46 PM
Nov 2015

And as for genocide, I have looked up the convention on genocide. A number of Auschwitz survivors, including the late Dr. Hajo Mayer



Keep covering up genocide. There is no difference between denying genocide of Palestinians and denying genocide of Jews. None.

Mosby

(16,167 posts)
66. There is no genocide of palestinians
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 10:55 AM
Dec 2015

The Palestinian arab population in 1947 was about 1.8 million and now it's 11 million worldwide.

Your stripping away all the real meaning of the word "genocide" for some reason.

marble falls

(56,358 posts)
64. Nothing you'd understand, put your brain back into rest mode. When the posting here dumbs down....
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 08:59 AM
Dec 2015

to your infantile level, I'll give you a gentle nudge. Count on it.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
29. Except for every single report that finds it not to be an accident
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 03:31 PM
Nov 2015

like the BBC one you dismiss out of hand because you don't agree with it. Frankly, I find the BBC to be much more fact based on a regular basis than your posts, which are merely propaganda for killers.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
31. LOL
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 03:42 PM
Nov 2015

While you think ever so highly of the BBC, perhaps you missed the link where the former chairman of BBC talked about how they're horribly anti-Israel. Here, I'll post it again for you:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3283850/BBC-shown-inexcusable-bias-Israel-says-former-chairman-Michael-Grade.html

Yes, I'm sure the US and Israel surely gave all the records of the event to the BBC because that makes complete sense. While those who actually HAD all the records all say the same thing - tragic accident.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
32. One man with the BBC thinks the BBC is biased against Israel
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:00 PM
Nov 2015

and you extend that to "horribly anti-Israel". That pretty much means that the BBC is not monolithic and not controlled by its chairman, like FOX. Differences of opinion are allowed.

Let's the clear. I'm anti-Israeli policy. Because of the facts. The fact is what Israel does to the Palestinians is genocide. All the same tactics that the Nazis used against the Jews prior to the death camps to take their property, de-humanize them in the eyes of the world, kill them, enclose them in ghettos and drive them out. Cut the world off from them, malnourish them, etc.

You may "LOL" at this. You may laugh out loud at this. But people who do the things Israel is doing are monsters no less than the pre-death camp Nazis. And the people who laugh at the comparison are horrible bigots. And the people who propagandize and minimize these atrocities on the internet are little Goebbels'.

When I say "never again", I mean never again for anybody anywhere in the world. When Netanyahu says "never again" he means that he will never again be on the side that suffers directly, but has no problem causing the suffering.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
34. He's the former CHAIRMAN of BBC
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:25 PM
Nov 2015

not some beat reporter making that charge so you can stop pretending otherwise. You've already admitted the Israeli's are NOT putting the Palestinians in concentration camps so you stuff the it's genocide but it's not bullshit - genocide actually does have a definition and doesn't mean everything you want it to. Perhaps you'll be happy if they're free to kill some more Israelis but I don't blame Israel for the checkpoints or the walls or anything else that stops the terrorists. If dehumanizing them means telling the truth that they teach their children to hate Jews, that they have elected a terrorist organization in Gaza and voted in a bloodthirsty thoroughly corrupt Abbas - then that would be their problem. You want there to be only one truth and the VAST majority of Americans know otherwise. Using words like genocide when the population does nothing but increase allows everyone to ignore all your other hyperbole.

And really, you can STUFF your charge that I was laughing about the Palestinians when anyone who can follow a thread can see I was laughing at your insistence that the BBC report discounts EVERY OTHER REPORT out there that calls the Liberty a tragic accident. To imply otherwise just makes you look foolish and that you're perfectly content to lie to try and make your point.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
39. I don't give a shit
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:35 PM
Nov 2015

if they want to believe bullshit - it's their right. But I wont stand for someone claiming I was laughing at the real hardships that Palestinians face every single day. I just put the blame for that where it belongs - on the leaders they keep electing who sell them a bill of goods and then blame Israel when they get nothing done. It's LIARS like that that just make it harder for those who truly want a fair and equitable two state solution.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
43. That's an apology for genocide
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 06:48 PM
Nov 2015


and yes, it is clear that you don't give a shit for people who notice facts you pretend don't exist.
 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
49. Keep using that
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:50 PM
Nov 2015

Word even after I schooled you on it actually having a REAL definition. You're proving my point for me. Thanks.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
52. The convention on genocide is the definition, which you refuse to even read
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:59 PM
Nov 2015

here's the link: https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Treaty.xsp?documentId=1507EE9200C58C5EC12563F6005FB3E5&action=openDocument

Denying that what Israel is doing to Palestinians is genocide is genocide denial.



What are the reasons you reject the convention on genocide as its definition? And please, link the the definition you are using and explain why it isn't the convention on genocide, the worldwide legally agreed to and binding definition of genocide.
 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
54. I've had enough
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 08:15 PM
Nov 2015

Of you accusing me of genocide denial. You have become completely unworthy of my time. Look up the word in any fucking dictionary....there's your answer.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
56. Well I haven't had enough of citing the convention against genocide
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 08:51 PM
Nov 2015

as the definition. Yes, run and hide.

People can have opinions about facts and about definitions, but facts are not open to debate and the internationally agreed upon definition of genocide is also not open to debate, and those who do debate it are genocide deniers.

Yeah, I'm unworthy of the time of genocide deniers. And proud of it. But they do merit my attention, and I will follow them and protest them till my last breath.



https://www.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Treaty.xsp?documentId=1507EE9200C58C5EC12563F6005FB3E5&action=openDocument

Six million Jews Hitler killed, but he sure as hell missed me. Never again. For anyone.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
42. Yes, he is one person entitled to voice his opinion and viewpoint
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 06:47 PM
Nov 2015

and it is unsurprising that the BBC has somebody who has a different voice than the others.

You only accept one point of view and dismiss all others.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
47. Go ahead and discount
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:40 PM
Nov 2015

The CHAIRMAN at bbc. It's all anyone need to know. It's YOU that is discounting all the reports calling it a tragic accident and hanging your hat on the bbc. That's your problem, nobody else's

Mosby

(16,167 posts)
68. The guy in that video (Dr. Hajo Meyer) was an anti-zionist and conspiracy theorist
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 11:18 AM
Dec 2015

who thought that the early Zionists conspired with the Nazis to promote Antisemitism in order to increase immigration to Israel.





 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
69. That is no surprise to
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 11:31 AM
Dec 2015

anyone with a brain. But that's who (and those like him) the 16% of Americans that sympathize with the Palestinians want to hang their hat on. And they wonder why they don't get anywhere.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
75. I never denied he was the former CHAIRMAN
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 02:28 PM
Dec 2015

that doesn't mean that he is the Rupert Murdoch of his organization. He isn't. He's a man in charge of running the board meetings, presiding over them, of a public trust company, not anything else. He's entitled to his opinion. The opinion of a political appointee who doesn't like the independence of the reporters of his former organization. That's his right, and yours too.

The Israeli Navy and Air Force observed the USS Liberty closely for nine hours before launching its attack. Yes, you can dismiss that fact, and the fact of the attack, and the fact of the deaths, injuries and damage, but that does nothing except show your refusal to see the facts. The facts exists, your denials show your biases.

How's your reading assignment on the convention against genocide going? Or are you still opting for a definition that allows semantic room to argue that the genocide against the Palestinians is not a genocide?

I thought I wasn't worth your time.

I guess it turns out that what is happening to the Palestinian people is worth your time. Genocide must never be swept under the rug. Remember, this is a genocide that the USA subsidizes with lavish monetary loans, loan forgiveness and grants. We are committing it now.

When the Israelis came for the Palestinians, I wasn't silent, and I wasn't a tool of covering up.

Mosby

(16,167 posts)
67. The head of the BBC commissioned a study
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 11:06 AM
Dec 2015

looking into anti-Israel bias. The results were so bad the report has been buried ever since, despite legal attempts to get it released.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balen_Report

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
70. Lovely they've already spent
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 11:34 AM
Dec 2015

over $500,000 of taxpayer money (300,000 british pounds) to keep this report a secret. It must be really, really bad - which anyone with a brain already knows.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
73. And why wouldn't they be entitled to make those findings
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 02:07 PM
Dec 2015

and why wouldn't those criticized want it downplayed, and why were they successful in getting it buried? People differ on these things. You pretty clearly agree with the report, even though you call it so bad it was buried. (I don't think you meant to write it that way.)

Mosby

(16,167 posts)
74. Because the BBC is a goverment agency of sorts
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 02:18 PM
Dec 2015

They are not a private company like the media in the US. They are supposed to be transparent but in this case they don't want to admit how much anti-Israel bias they found.

No one outside of the BBC and British government has seen the report.


 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
76. Then sue for a copy if they are supposed to be transparent
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 02:37 PM
Dec 2015

and it's a government document.

Either the text supports your claims for what the text states, or it doesn't. But you don't get to cite something you haven't seen and is only generally described by someone with an opinion.

I'd suggest that you have a deep misunderstanding of what an internal report is, and I'd say that you are relying on its non-published status as what you would call, a conspiracy theory.

Yes, supporters of Israel, including any that participated in authoring the report, are, in a free society, entitled to issue opinions that critical. That doesn't mean that those opinions and reports are fact. That is determined by the merits.

A lot of supporters of Israel described anyone critical of Israel as "biased against Israel" if it suits their purpose. Maybe they are, and maybe they aren't. But let's face it, supporters of Israel are biased in favor of Israel.

It is only after reviewing the facts and coming to a reasoned conclusion that we can approach moving beyond bias.

Here is the documentary in question, filled with facts:

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
48. Keep it up, sunshine
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:46 PM
Nov 2015

Calling me a propogandist for killers shines quite the light on where you're coming from. The very least of your problems is me not giving a shit what you think. I'll keep believing those who have no axe to grind and actually have all the evidence and not the organization whose own former CHAIRMAN admits has an Israel problem.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
50. You pretty clearly do give a shit
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:51 PM
Nov 2015

which is why you keep posting. When you latch onto to one person in a diverse organization to dismiss the rest, you really do take one man's opinions over the fact gathering of all the employees. That makes you ignore most of the work the people do in favor of an opinion you like.

Yes, I will keep it up.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
53. Care about you?
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 08:10 PM
Nov 2015

Not a chance. Care that people reading this blog know there are those of us who actually care about facts...most definitely. I'll never turn this board over to those like you.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
55. I never asked you to care about me or turn the board over to me
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 08:40 PM
Nov 2015

ever.

As for the facts, I've linked to the facts, and the fact is that Israel kills whom it wants to on the Liberty and in Gaza and then relies on propagandists to lie about it ad infinitum.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
62. Your claim was that I
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 05:56 AM
Dec 2015

obviously cared about what you think. I cleared up that misconception. The only supposed "facts" you listen to are those that make Israel guilty of intentionally killing Americans. Something that MANY inquiries and investigations have found to be false. So you hang your hat on a BBC investigation and then get cranky when I point out that even the former CHAIRMAN of the BBC ratted out his own organization and their biases about Israel. It tells me and everyone else where you're coming from.

marble falls

(56,358 posts)
60. Thank you for being dismissive of my family lost in the Holocaust. Your father would be so proud...
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 01:16 AM
Dec 2015

of you and your foul mouth.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
33. In 1990 former Sec of State
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:15 PM
Nov 2015

Dean Rusk, U.S. Secretary of State at the time of the incident, wrote:

"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous."

fingrin

(120 posts)
7. Yesterday
Sun Nov 29, 2015, 09:54 PM
Nov 2015

Israel announced they wont shoot down Russian planes. Today one entered Israeli airspace. Date unknown.
Coincidence?

mallard

(568 posts)
16. The 'violation' most probably involved crossing
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:18 AM
Nov 2015

onto the Golan, which is occupied by Israel with dubious claim. It's actually part of Syria according to UN resolution. That evil dictator Assad, tough. like father before him, has practically left the Golan question alone in unsuccessful attempts to find favor with the West.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
25. Russian pilots seem particularly inept at navigation.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 10:40 AM
Nov 2015

With all the accidental overflies in the last ten days, Russian pilots seem particularly inept at navigation.

Response to Purveyor (Original post)

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