Turkey warns Russia not to 'play with fire' over downed jet

[MowCowWhoHow III]

Source: BBC

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has warned Russia's President Vladimir Putin not to "play with fire" over his country's downing of a Russian jet.

Mr Erdogan also said he wanted to meet Mr Putin "face-to-face" at climate talks in Paris to resolve the issue.

Mr Putin wants an apology from Turkey before he will speak to Mr Erdogan, the Russian president's aide said.

Russia has suspended its visa-free arrangement with Turkey in the latest of a range of retaliatory measures.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34941093

[Demeter]

1. Batshit crazy

Turkey's the one playing with fire, and it will be badly burned at both ends.

[uawchild]

6. Is it really Erdogan that is playing with nuclear hellfire?

"In 1991, the United States and Soviet Union both withdrew from deployment most and eliminated from their arsenals many of their nonstrategic nuclear weapons. The United States now has approximately 760 nonstrategic nuclear weapons, with around 200 deployed with aircraft in Europe and the remaining stored in the United States. Estimates vary, but experts believe Russia still has between 1,000 and 6,000 warheads for nonstrategic nuclear weapons in its arsenal. The Bush Administration quietly redeployed and removed some of the nuclear weapons deployed in Europe. Russia, however seems to have increased its reliance on nuclear weapons in its national security concept."

https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RL32572.pdf

"As Tensions With West Rise, Russia Increasingly Rattles Nuclear Saber
...
Remarks about Russia’s nuclear strength play well to Mr. Putin’s domestic constituency, hungry for a restoration of lost military might.

They also come at a time when Russia has grown more reliant on nuclear weapons, as the imbalance with Western conventional forces has widened. During the Cold War, Warsaw Pact conventional forces outnumbered NATO’s in Europe, leading the West to depend heavily on its nuclear arsenal as a deterrent.

These days, Russia has fewer soldiers, poorer weaponry and scarcer allies. The inferiority and isolation have changed its defense strategy.

“It’s not just a difference in rhetoric,” said Bruce G. Blair, a research scholar at Princeton University and nuclear weapons expert. “It’s a whole different world.”

http://www.wsj.com/articles/as-tensions-with-west-rise-russia-increasingly-rattles-nuclear-saber-1428249620

=============

Where "nonstrategic nuclear weapons" are more commonly known as tactical battlefield nuclear weapon, the name branding indicating that militaries that have them think they could actually be used in combat without starting WWIII.

[6chars]

26. Assuming he isn't destroyed, Erdogan will gain prestige

from standing up to Russia. He knows this.

[uhnope]

2. Russia gets a pass on one fuck up. After that, Putin's fucking with NATO

and the result won't be pretty.

Too bad the Russia people can't get rid of that tinpot fascist.

[saturnsring]

3. too bad we cant get rid of ours running in the primary

[uhnope]

4. I agree, though that's false equivalency on a grand scale

[GliderGuider]

9. Only because yours hasn't been elected ... yet.

Imagine Trump and Putin going nose-to-nose...

[Comrade Grumpy]

10. What a ridiculous post.

"Russia gets a pass on one fuck up."

No, Russia did not get a pass, it got a plane blown out of the sky. And it's questionable whether the plane was even in Turkish territory. The plane crashed in Syria, the pilots parachuted into Syria.

Furthermore, the Turks shooting that plane down was an act of pure provocation. The plane was not attacking or threatening Turkey. They could have escorted it out of Turkish air space (if it was ever in it). They chose deliberately and willfully to shoot down that plane. I hope and expect they end up with a bloody nose out of this.

"After that, Putin's fucking with NATO."

After what? After getting its plane shot down? Russia has bombed the shit out of Turkey's Turkmen henchmen in Syria since this happened. I suppose the Turkmen can send thank you notes to Erdogun for that.

Yes, Turkey is a NATO ally. NATO has managed to go 50 years without shooting down a Russian plane. Do you think NATO is happy with Turkey? Yes, NATO says Turkey is justified, but it's actions just really fucked things up.

"Too bad the Russi people can't get rid of that tinpot fascist."

Yeah, you should go lead the revolution.

[nyabingi]

13. So, what is it specifically about Putin

and his government that has you so much in arms about him?

What's your specific beef?

[Leontius]

15. How about armed aggression and territorial seizures in the Caucasus and Crimea and Donbass?

Or the murder of opposition political leaders and journalists?

[nyabingi]

20. If the neocons who dominate US foreign policy

and NATO weren't so hellbent on provoking a confrontation with Russia, Crimea would still be a part of Ukraine today and Ukraine's eastern regions would still be living peacefully with a government they had all elected (and not one handpicked by the Obama administration). Russia has been responding to provocation, not instigating "armed aggression" against anyone.

Whether or not the Russian government has had opposition leaders killed is speculation, but it is definitely possible (as it is in any country).

[uhnope]

18. umm....what about the Putin gov are you NOT up in arms about?

The invasion & occupation of the Ukraine? The homophobic laws, the Kremlin-connected thugs hunting down Putin's opponents and gays? The destruction of the free press, the murdering and imprisoning of political adversaries and dissidents? Which of those is okay with you?

[CJCRANE]

21. And are you also concerned about the oppression of gay people and minorities in the gulf monarchies

and by the islamist rebels we support?

[Xolodno]

28. Not too mention Poroshenko's government...

...hasn't exactly been friendly to gays either.

And he is objectifying his hate on Putin alone. The Russian and Ukrainian population have homo-phobic fears. Want to change the attitudes of the government, change the attitudes of the people. But he would rather just rage against Putin on the internet and call everyone overpaid shills if they disagree with him.

I don't waste my time on him. He called Russia's tourism boycott on Turkey another nail in the coffin for Russia's economy...uhm...so how is it Russians NOT spending money in a foreign country harming the domestic economy? Econ 101 epic fail.

[uhnope]

31. ridiculous whataboutism

you might want to rein in your tendency to respond to criticism of Putin's fascism with but what about this other thing over there and why haven't you posted perfunctory condemnations of that if you want to be taken seriously

[nyabingi]

22. Russia was protecting its interests in Ukraine,

specifically in Crimea (which the US/Euro prized above all else so they could push the Russian naval base out of the Black Sea) and preventing outright genocide by the US-backed Kiev regime in the east of Ukraine. We installed a bunch of Western stooges and used thuggish neo-Nazis to help bring about regime change there (the US has always been quite fond of Nazis and white supremacists so that doesn't surprise me). If not for Russia's intervention, the ethnic Russians in Donetsk and Lugansk would have been slaughtered en masse by Yatsenyuk's thugs.

Russia, like many countries, has a long way to go as far as its treatment of the LGBT community there. It is a country which values machismo even more highly than the US and their policies are indeed worthy of condemnation. However, that is an issue for Russia to deal with internally and one their people will have to tackle, not us.

It has not been proven that the Kremlin has killed political opposition but I wouldn't rule it out.

The freedom of Russia's press is another issue for Russians to deal with internally. The freedom of our press is highly questionable so you need to start in the US before criticizing press freedoms elsewhere.

I see there are many things you dislike about Russia (and Putin specifically), but can you also criticize blatant US/NATO aggression against Russia? If you can't then you are not attempting to be an objective observer of world affairs and are simply another liberal interventionist (like the ones littering the Obama admin) who is smitten by the neocon policies of Dick Cheney.

[uhnope]

30. thx for your classic Putin apologist. Allow me to call BS.

Criticize Putin = must be Cheney neocon! What a joke.

No, the US has not "installed" a gov't in Kiev, and no, the US has not "used thuggish neo-Nazis" there either. Clownish claims that show the direct-from-Kremlin CT basis of your worldview. What did happen was a Russia puppet got kicked out of Ukraine through Euromaidan people power--reminiscent of all the countries that kicked Russia out from 1989-1992 while the USSR empire collapsed--and Putin apologists hate that.

Your explaining of the recent homophobic laws in Russia is truly insulting to the LGBT people being attacked there--and no, the point is not that Russia "has a long way to go" but that it is going the other direction.

You didn't even mention the actual neo-Nazi death squads roaming Russia, killing and beating gays and Putin opponents. What a coincidence!

[uhnope]

34. obviously you live in a dream world of delusion and warped anger

It's sad that people believe in insane conspiracy theories, and it seems like this disease is spreading.
You seem to not have been on DU enough to know your Nuland CT has been so thoroughly debunked that it's now a punchline. Here's what really happened, in case you wake up one day with a clear mind:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/world/europe/ukraine-leader-was-defeated-even-before-he-was-ousted.html?_r=0

This:

Homophobia is as much a problem in the US as it is in Russia, the African continent

is so ignorant and insulting to persecuted gays in Russia and Uganda that no comment is necessary.

This however is funny:

Russians might be providing you information that your government might not want you to be privy to

This:

Obama is behaving just as bad as Bush did.

again shows that you're not in touch with anything close to reality. And I think you know it, which is why you got so angry and personally insulting.

Good luck

[red dog 1]

5. Trukish President Erdogan should be careful here,

Last edited Sat Nov 28, 2015, 05:39 PM - Edit history (1)

He should be willing to apologize for the Russian deaths from the shooting down of the Russian jet and the rescue helicopter crewman.

Putin will likely cut off Russian fuel supply to Turkey, which Turkey needs.

[christx30]

8. Agreed.

Turkey needs Russia far more than Russia needs Turkey. Turkey depends on a lot of tourist money flowing into their economy. And Russia requiring visas is going to hurt that a lot, putting the squeeze on Erdogen.

[red dog 1]

27. Your're right about that.

I read somewhere that Russian tourists spend billions each year visiting Turkey.

[lovuian]

7. He just gave Putin reason to dig in Syria

and confirmed what Putin already knew ...

[bemildred]

11. Erdogan is a slow learner. nt

[nyabingi]

12. Turkey was protecting its ISIS assets

(which it has been behind all along) and trying to make sure his country has continued access to the pilfered oil ISIS has been convoying into Turkey. The Russians have started attacking these convoys (which Putin has said, based on actual aerial surveillance, stretch miles into the horizon heading into Turkey) and Erdogan doesn't like that.

Erdogan and his right-wing Islamist government is turning out to be more of a problem than their open assistance to the Islamist mercenaries they've set upon the Syrian people. He's politically repressive, possibly bombed his own citizens who were openly protesting his policies, and is nothing but a lapdog of US neocons and NATO generals who are itching to start a war with Russia and China.

Maybe Mr. Putin should start considering using a Russian-based NGO system in Turkey to start his own version of the regime change game long played by the West?

[Baclava]

14. Turkey better watch it's ass

"The S-400 is an air defense system. The reason we didn't have the system in Syria is because we thought our planes were flying at high enough altitudes where a terrorist could not reach them; they don't have weapons capable of downing our planes at the altitude of over 3 or 4 thousand meters. And We could never think that we could be stabbed in the back by a country we regarded as our ally. Our planes operated at altitudes of 5-6,000 meters and were completely unprotected against potential attacks from fighter jets - we could never imagine that that could be possible otherwise we would deploy such systems in the area protecting our bombers against possible attacks."

-----------------------

This why Russia take Ukraine ... open water

Black Sea Fleet

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

16. Turkey is warning Russia?

"The Mouse that Roared" was only a movie.

[uhnope]

17. a NATO country is warning Russia

[magical thyme]

25. A NATO country that depends on Russia for gas, gets a significant percentage of

it tourists from Russia, and has a history of violating Greek airspace, violated Syrian airspace to ambush a Russian jet, and now is threatening Russia. At the start of winter.

Russia doesn't need to use nukes against Turkey. They've already turned off their tourists. Now they can turn off the gas and let the Turks freeze.

[Xolodno]

29. If they really want to make a mess of things...

...start covertly arming the Kurds.

[hack89]

19. I would put my money on Turkey in a conventional war

Last edited Sat Nov 28, 2015, 08:55 AM - Edit history (1)

They have a large, modern and well trained military. Russia does not.

[CJCRANE]

23. How do you think the arab nations would respond if Turkey invaded Syria?

What about the Kurds?

[hack89]

24. Not sure

The Kurds in Syria will fight. Iraq will stay out of it - they have enough problems at home. The Iraqi Kurds will dig in and defend their territory. The Saudis will do nothing militarily to challenge Turkey.

But Turkey will not be that stupid. Syria is a large country full of well armed violent groups. They will remember how clean the U.S. invasion of Iraq was and how bloody and protracted the occupation became.

[Sunlei]

33. Turkey can allow Russians paperless passage in & through their country, even if Putin says 'no'

Putin will forbid his own citizens travel to Turkey?