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Omaha Steve

(99,506 posts)
Thu Sep 17, 2015, 09:56 AM Sep 2015

Students suspended for clothing displaying Confederate flag

Source: AP

CHRISTIANSBURG, Va. (AP) — About 20 students at a Virginia high school received a one-day suspension for wearing clothing displaying the Confederate flag.

Montgomery County Public Schools spokeswoman Brenda Drake says the clothing violated Christiansburg High School's dress code.

Drake tells WSLS-TV (http://bit.ly/1NFFsrk ) that the students refused to comply with the dress code after they arrived at the school Thursday. They were given one-day in-school suspensions.

But she says a majority of the students didn't follow in-school suspension rules and were given out of-school suspensions.

FULL story at link.

Read more: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/af9bc09f2dfd4e21a855e2254d728d88/students-suspended-clothing-displaying-confederate-flag

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Students suspended for clothing displaying Confederate flag (Original Post) Omaha Steve Sep 2015 OP
There was a thread earlier at DU about this school, but it involved a separate incident. mahatmakanejeeves Sep 2015 #1
Their parents must be so proud n/t hibbing Sep 2015 #2
In "CHRISTIANS"BURG LMFAO L0oniX Sep 2015 #3
My own view bluestateguy Sep 2015 #4
It isn't protected if it threatens others frazzled Sep 2015 #5
Phrase it differently. Igel Sep 2015 #14
The symbolism of the Confederate flag is clear frazzled Sep 2015 #15
It is like the swatstika awoke_in_2003 Sep 2015 #13
I saw a pickup full of kids flying a huge confederate flag leftyladyfrommo Sep 2015 #6
When I went to high school in the late 90's d_legendary1 Sep 2015 #7
Not to get off topic, but I kinda forgot about that band. iscooterliberally Sep 2015 #8
Thanks for the information! d_legendary1 Sep 2015 #9
Oh that is funny... iscooterliberally Sep 2015 #10
What can I say? d_legendary1 Sep 2015 #12
From the local newspaper: mahatmakanejeeves Sep 2015 #11

mahatmakanejeeves

(57,319 posts)
1. There was a thread earlier at DU about this school, but it involved a separate incident.
Thu Sep 17, 2015, 10:03 AM
Sep 2015

Last edited Fri Sep 18, 2015, 10:25 AM - Edit history (2)

Christiansburg school bans Confederate symbols from parking lot (VA)

My response at the time was: Is Tinker Meaningless Now?

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, 393 U.S. 503 (1969) was a decision by the United States Supreme Court that defined the constitutional rights of students in U.S. public schools. The Tinker test is still used by courts today to determine whether a school's disciplinary actions violate students' First Amendment rights.

Background of the case

In 1965, Des Moines, Iowa residents John F. Tinker (15 years old), his siblings Mary Beth Tinker (13 years old), Hope Tinker (11 years old), and Paul Tinker (8 years old), along with their friend Christopher Eckhardt (16 years old) decided to wear black armbands to their schools (high school for John and Christopher, junior high for Mary Beth, elementary school for Hope and Paul) in protest of the Vietnam War and supporting the Christmas Truce called for by Senator Robert F. Kennedy. The principals of the Des Moines schools learned of the plan and met on December 14 to create a policy that stated that school children wearing an armband would be asked to remove it immediately. Violating students would be suspended and allowed to return to school after agreeing to comply with the policy. The participants decided to violate this policy. Mary Beth Tinker and Christopher Eckhardt were suspended from school for wearing armbands on December 16 and John Tinker was suspended for doing the same on the following day. (The two youngest participants were not punished.) Mary Beth, Christopher, and John were suspended from school until after January 1, 1966, when their protest had been scheduled to end.
....

Subsequent jurisprudence

Tinker remains a viable and frequently-cited Court precedent, though subsequent Court decisions have determined limitations on the scope of student free speech rights. In Bethel School District v. Fraser, a 1986 case, the Supreme Court held that a high school student's sexual innuendo–laden speech during a student assembly was not constitutionally protected. Though Fraser applies the Tinker test of disruption to school decorum, if not undermining of educational mission, the effect is to make an exception to Tinker for "indecent" speech. Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier, where the court ruled that schools have the right to regulate, for legitimate educational reasons, the content of non-forum, school-sponsored newspapers, also limits Tinker's application. The Court in Hazelwood clarified that both Fraser and Hazelwood were decided under the doctrine of Perry Education Association v. Perry Local Educators Association. Such a distinction keeps undisturbed the Material Disruption doctrine of Tinker, while deciding certain student free speech cases under the Nonpublic Forum doctrine of Perry. In Morse v. Frederick, the so-called "Bong Hits For Jesus" case of 2007, the Court held that schools may, consistent with the First Amendment, restrict student speech at a school-sponsored event, even those events occurring off school grounds, when that speech is reasonably viewed as promoting illegal drug use. In 2013, the full U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit re-heard a case that had been argued before a panel of its judges, considering whether a charitable effort - a breast cancer awareness drive - impermissibly disrupts a middle school by distributing bracelets imprinted "I ? Boobies."

Here's the original article in the Roanoke Times to which struggle4progress's post links:

Christiansburg school bans Confederate symbols from parking lot

Posted: Monday, September 14, 2015 12:00 am
By Travis Williams
[email protected]
381-1643

....
School dress code bars students from wearing articles, “that reflect adversely on persons due to race (such as clothing with Confederate flag symbols), gender, creed, national origin, physical abilities, emotional abilities, or intellectual abilities.” “Signs, decals or stickers” are prohibited from placement on lockers.

The legal standard for public schools issuing such bans is based on officials being able to reasonably forecast that a particular symbol or expression will cause a “substantial disruption,” Claire Guthrie Gastanaga, executive director of American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia, wrote in an email. There is no list of accepted criteria, she wrote, but the school’s history and recent violence can be factors.

Fights, demonstrations or other disruptions are the school’s criteria for banning certain symbols in accordance with state law, {County schools spokeswoman Brenda Drake} said. The parking policy was based on “external factors,” she said. ... “There have been no protests or that type of thing,” Drake said. “In working with students on conflict issues, our staff members look at more than external factors such as race. We know that often there are deeper issues at play and we work to ensure that all of our students’ needs are met.”

Gastanaga wrote that she believes the school’s parking policy could be questioned on constitutional grounds because it applies to vehicles outside the school building, not expression inside it, and the rule’s broad language makes it difficult to know what exactly is disallowed and who would be deeming something offensive. ... “We would urge the school administration and the school board to examine carefully any broadly stated policy like Rule 11,” she wrote. ... Drake did not cite examples of other symbols that would be banned.

There is no constitutional protection against having your feelings hurt by someone else's automobile.

ETA: There is no constitutional protection against having your feelings hurt, period.

Happy Constitution Day.

bluestateguy

(44,173 posts)
4. My own view
Thu Sep 17, 2015, 11:06 AM
Sep 2015

is that if it is just a plain flag t-shirt without hateful rhetoric, or violent imagery, then it is protected free speech.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
5. It isn't protected if it threatens others
Thu Sep 17, 2015, 11:10 AM
Sep 2015

And the Confederate flag is a threatening message to those whose very lives have been jeopardized by the ideology that flag proclaims.

Besides, school dress codes aren't subject to "free speech" protections, as far as I know.

Igel

(35,282 posts)
14. Phrase it differently.
Thu Sep 17, 2015, 07:33 PM
Sep 2015

It isn't protected if others find it threatening. Give credit to the perceiver instead of attributing what might well not be true to the bearer.

Is the message what's intended or what's perceived?

We've clearly said that it's really the perceiver that determines what the message is. If the originator of the message disgrees, then the speaker clearly needs to be told of his/her true intent.

Now let's try that with Obama. If somebody perceives his message to be X, then it must be X and if Obama disagrees then he's mistaken as to what he meant. Sounds like idiocy when it's put in those terms.

The difference is whether we trust people or not. Obama we trust not to lie. We assume that those we don't like must be lying. There's no doubt. They're lying.

Then we wonder why, exactly, they act like we're saying something incorrect or don't trust us and agree with us. Having just labeled them liars because we understand them better than they understand themselves, we say, "Trust us. We certainly do, and we can't be wrong." As we pat our back on how we handle nuance, uncertainty, how masterful we are at empathy and encouraging dialog.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
15. The symbolism of the Confederate flag is clear
Thu Sep 17, 2015, 11:37 PM
Sep 2015

Even states such as South Carolina and Alabama have finally acknowledged the racist overtones of the flag and removed it from state buildings.

Sorry, it's offensive and threatening. It's also a school's right to enforce a dress code. Your psychologizing is just not working.

leftyladyfrommo

(18,866 posts)
6. I saw a pickup full of kids flying a huge confederate flag
Thu Sep 17, 2015, 11:13 AM
Sep 2015

off the back of the truck. They were just trying to be a big deal. No one paid any attention to them at all.

d_legendary1

(2,586 posts)
7. When I went to high school in the late 90's
Thu Sep 17, 2015, 11:41 AM
Sep 2015

There were punk rockers who wore T-Shirts with band names that were less than suitible. This one girl in particular had a shirt with a band name "Jackoff Jill" with a picture of a girl wearing a dress. Well the dress had a cable coming from the bottom and it lead to the girl's hand where she was holding a switch of some sort. My teacher took notice and asked her to go to the bathroom and turn the shirt inside out.

She refused.

He then called security and had her escorted to the principle's office for further disciplinary action. It reminds me of the "Don't ask me 4 shit" shirts that were popular among some of my peers at the time, which lead to student suspensions and bans of the shirt on school property. This is no different. It disrupts the learning process and will intimidate some students. Kids for the most part don't have free speech rights (something about competency rule in law).

In short they brought that upon themselves.

iscooterliberally

(2,860 posts)
8. Not to get off topic, but I kinda forgot about that band.
Thu Sep 17, 2015, 01:38 PM
Sep 2015

I ran sound for Jackoff Jill once back in the 90s. They used to play the same club circuit that I did. It was a place called "Squeeze" on the New River in Fort Lauderdale. The club is long gone. I remember the band was pretty raunchy, but they played well. It was a good show. I think they were all friends with Marilyn Manson & The Spooky Kids who also played the same clubs that we did. They were all going for shock value back then. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

d_legendary1

(2,586 posts)
9. Thanks for the information!
Thu Sep 17, 2015, 01:51 PM
Sep 2015

I wasn't a goth but I do remember a lot of things that people wore, did and said during my time in high school. I figured they were a band but didn't know much else (these were the days before reliable internet). People thought you were a head case if you listened to Marylin Mason. But you are right: the more things change the more they stay the same (COUGH, Miley Cyrus, COUGH).

iscooterliberally

(2,860 posts)
10. Oh that is funny...
Thu Sep 17, 2015, 02:04 PM
Sep 2015

I thought they were all 'head cases' and I actually met them. When Marilyn Manson started out, he didn't even have a drummer in his band. They used this cheesy drum machine instead. I was actually offered a chance to audition on bass after they let go of the first guy. I wasn't into the whole...grab a super-model's first name and pair it with a serial killer's last name to come up with your stage name thing. Marilyn Manson's original guitar player was the only good musician in the band. I met him years ago because we used the same guitar tech. He was really nice and down to earth despite the persona he had to put on. It's funny you mentioned Miley because she is exactly who I was thinking of in terms of shock value.

mahatmakanejeeves

(57,319 posts)
11. From the local newspaper:
Thu Sep 17, 2015, 02:16 PM
Sep 2015
Christiansburg students suspended following Confederate flag rally

Posted: Thursday, September 17, 2015 12:17 pm | Updated: 12:18 pm, Thu Sep 17, 2015.

By Robby Korth
[email protected]
(540) 381-1679

About 20 students were suspended from Christiansburg High School following a rally protesting the school's parking policy that disallows Confederate flags on student vehicles.

The students arrived at the school in clothes with the Confederate flag that violate the dress code, according to the Associated Press.

Those students were given in-school suspension. However, a majority of the students didn't follow in-school suspension rules and were given out-of-school suspension, Montgomery County Public Schools spokeswoman Brenda Drake told media outlets, according to the Associated Press.
....

Houston Miller, a senior who organized the rally, said the students would be back again tomorrow in Confederate flag gear. He said the flag would also continue to fly on his truck in the parking lot.

What if the students decide to show solidarity by wearing cowboy boots (a popular item, according to the accompanying pictures)? Will the school ban them too?
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