San Francisco's 'Spray Back' Walls To Stop Public Urination Are Working
Source: ASSOCIATED PRESS
By KRISTIN J. BENDER Published AUGUST 13, 2015, 9:28 AM EDT
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) Public urination has gotten so bad in San Francisco that the city has painted nine walls with a repellant paint that makes pee spray back on the offender.
It's the latest effort to address a chronic problem in a city where the public works director calls himself Mr. Clean: Walls are coated with a clear, liquid repellant material that goes on much like paint. Hit with urine, it splashes back on a person's shoes and pants.
Mohammed Nuru, director of San Francisco's public works department, says offenders will need to make the mistake only once to get the idea.
"If you have to go," he said, "go in the right place."
-snip-
Read more: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/san-fransisco-public-urination-spray-back-walls
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)liberal N proud
(60,332 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)KansDem
(28,498 posts)Yavin4
(35,421 posts)because it only encourages you.
Fritz Walter
(4,290 posts)If the angle of incidence is 45 degrees instead of 90, wouldn't the angle of reflection direct the spray back in a different direction?
In other words, all a guy has to do is direct his stream at a different angle, so it would splash on his friend's shoes and pants.
OK, after an evening of drinking, one may not be thinking like a rocket scientist, but still...
gordianot
(15,233 posts)If Newton was inspired by a falling apple think what this may do. It could spawn tourism to see and experience this miracle
oldandhappy
(6,719 posts)MosheFeingold
(3,051 posts)Would a "bumpy" texture make it impossible to aim (because some would always be hitting at the wrong angle)?
Inquiring minds want to know.
sdfernando
(4,923 posts)when we were discussing the story.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)If we assume we are only discussing males, what are standing upright when their urinate, You not only have to determine the length of the urine flow, you have to determine the Slope of the stream of urine and its speed. Once you determine the slope, length and speed, you can calculate the impact area and determine what angle the paint should dry at that would cause the urine to bounce off the paint, and again calculating length, slope and strength at impact for some of the urine to hit the man urinating.
40 years ago, when I was taking calculus I could have determined the above, but I have not used Calculus since the 1970s so I am out of practice. The key is the slope, the gradual drop in the stream caused NOT only by Gravity but by the speed of the urine slowing down.
Calculus was invented to help determine where artillery shells would land. You can do it with trigonometry, but calculus does it faster. Given Urine from a man also goes along a slope, calculus is what you need to calculate the angle needed to have a splash back.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_calculus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral#Newton_and_Leibniz
As I said, when I was in High School, 40 years ago, I could do this, but I have forgotten most of my Calculus do to lack of use, thus I have to leave it up to some young mind that still uses calculus on a regular basis to do the actual calculations. I could review what I knew 40 years ago, but by the time I catch up where I was 40 years ago, someone would have done the calculations if they wanted them.
LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)such that it would accelerating not slowing down.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)This is mostly do to the fact I do not have a radar gun to determine the speed the urine exits my body at, and the speed the urine is traveling when it hits its intended target. Now, I did have an older brother who did test out the theory that urine exits faster then electricity travels, but when he pissed on an electric fence he found out the speed of electric current was MUCH faster then the urine exiting his body (He later became in environmental engineer for the State).
Thus gravity is a secondary accelerate to urine, second to the force the bladder is expending to expel the urine. Thus I suspect the urine is going slower as it hits its target then when it exits the body, but since I still do not have a radar gun and have no intentions of determining the speed of my urine, I have to maintain the pressure provided by the bladder exceeds the pull of gravity.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)"I have to maintain the pressure provided by the bladder exceeds the pull of gravity. "
So you pee at greater than escape velocity? Must have been a frat boy... NASA would like to talk to you about delivering fluids to orbit...
Unless you know of a special force that affects only urine, like I said previously, unless one is going for an upward trajectory,the urine will accelerate due to the force of gravity after exiting the body. Air resistance will have some small effect but until the speed reaches terminal velocity, gravity is winning over air resistance and acceleration occurs.
It will retain whatever velocity it leaves the body, then gravity accelerates it.
oldandhappy
(6,719 posts)What is the cost of the cleaning and the paint? How often does the wall have to be cleaned and painted?
What is the cost of a porta-potty beside that wall? Men are still going to 'go'. They will just do it sideways.
GreatGazoo
(3,937 posts)Europe has public urinals (for those who won't pee in the gutter).
oldandhappy
(6,719 posts)And I have seen them for women with a door that comes across sort of knees to shoulders.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)question everything
(47,431 posts)There were talks about putting something like that in this country but... it would have violated the Americans with Disability Act who would not have been able to use it without modifications and, of course, larger area.
tavernier
(12,368 posts)My girlfriend somehow got a full shower in one of these. We all laughed till we were sick. Do I have to add that some good French wine was involved?
gordianot
(15,233 posts)Impressive solution all the same
valerief
(53,235 posts)trillion
(1,859 posts)They could have used port-a-potties. Guess they only accommodate men there.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)The big problem being that they need to have features that deter them from becoming homeless encampments.
The pee problem is a symptom of the much larger problem that the city doubles as a campground for the destitute and unmedicated.
thesquanderer
(11,972 posts)Porta-potties or other public facilities are clearly preferable, but no, they're not cheap. They either have to be plumbed into the sewage system, on there has to be an on-going system of sending trucks around to empty them. But hey, at least that's a job that can't be out-sourced overseas.
Aristus
(66,286 posts)"Public Restroom - Open"
These are everywhere in Germany, and other places in Europe. Clean, sanitary; gives people a place to do their business without having to duck into an alley. We could totally do this, on a municipal level, if not state or federal. But I'll bet there are people who could think up a million reasons why we couldn't or shouldn't.
niyad
(113,049 posts)RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)I have seen public rest rooms in the Netherlands, but you have to pay like .50 euros to use them. If they are in places like gas stations, or train stations, they give you a coupon for the same .50 euros off a purchase there. There are a few free public restrooms in some areas though.
Over here, they have closed the public restrooms in the cities, because it's more important to give the rich tax breaks than to give people a place to pee.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Unless they are cleaned hourly, they will reek and just be gross.
No city in the US seems to be willing to pay for that.
Hence, gross Neaderthals pissing in the streets.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)to clean bathrooms, and public restrooms when I was a kid in NYC. Sure it wasn't the best job going, but it was more than some folks had. Now they don't want to pay people to do that, as well as other costs.
I know in the Netherlands, those .50 Euro toilets were so clean you could eat off of the floor! Perhaps this is an answer.
But you know what, there is one and only one thing that McDonald's is good for here. Their rest rooms. No matter where I have been on the East Coast, I can pull into a Mickey D's and use the toilet, without buying anything, and nobody says a word.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)There was a movement to ban them in the 70s. Hey, man, going to the bathroom is, like, natural, man. I shouldn't have to pay to do what's natural, man...Like disco and Pet Rocks, another bad idea.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)In the early 1970s Governor Shapp of Pennsylvania had a law passed saying that at least one toilet in any toilet open to the public be free. Thus you could have 20 paid toilets, and one free one and that would satisfy the law. The problem was every one then just used the paid toilet. Thus it is legal to have a pay toilet but among the pay toilets must be at least one free one.
Most Major Cities had public toilets till the 1930s, when most cities closed them because most cities did not want to maintain them (Toilets have to be clean on at least a daily basis and most cities just did not want to pay for such cleaning and general upkeep). To replace those public toilets most cities, starting in the 1960s, adopted rules that all restaurants must have toilets free to the public.
Please note, one of the reason to get rid of the Public Toilets was to drive out any long term protesters, this was hard to do if the toilets were open 24 hours a day (Some were manned 24 hours a day, most were not and it was the unmanned toilets that cities wanted to close). As seen in Occupy Wall-street, the lack of toilet facilities were a major impediment for people during the occupation (and the reason for the lack of toilet was to prevent any long term protesters in the first place, a policy adopted during the Great Depression).
I do NOT remember ever using the public toilet, even through in the 1960s I lived next door to one. I thought it was just a unpainted wood warehouse, but it was an old public toilet that survived till the 1970s. No one used it, but it survived. I do remember Governor Shapp protesting against paid toilets and getting the law passed making sure at least one would be free and how fast paid toilets disappeared right after that law was passed in Pennsylvania and other states. I remember the move to require all restaurants to have free toilets, which was aimed at McDonalds and similar fast food chains, which had no such toilets in the 1960s (The Restaurants protested, then found out it brought in customers and the protests died out).
Thus toilets have been a problem in the US, but we have addressed it by requiring Restaurants to have restrooms open to the public (The Restaurants MAY say it is reserved to paying customers, but unless the restaurant is pre about 1970, it can NOT restrict them to paying customers). Please note the rule on Restaurants in urban centers NOT the suburbs and NOT state law. Some Suburbs have adopted similar laws as to restaurants and restrooms like those in most urban centers, but not all suburbs have adopted such rules.
The biggest problem is finding such restrooms. Most Cities still have them in their public buildings but hidden away and often locked down after 5:00 pm. In a lot older sections of town, that are now booming due to Collage Students AND other people in their 20s and 30s going to such places, there is a need for public restrooms, but cities have just refused to build them for that means hiring someone to clean them.
In 2003 the City of Pittsburgh install a new Public toilet in the South Side of Pittsburgh:
http://old.post-gazette.com/lifestyle/20030212publicpot0212p2.asp
The problem is that it did not last long (the toilet still exists, but has been "Closed for Repairs" for years):
http://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/brian-oneill/2015/04/23/Brian-O-Neill-Potty-s-No-1-problem-is-being-available/stories/201504230042
All this shows is what is needed are solid old fashion toilets subject to someone walking through the toilet ever hour or so to make sure it is clean. The problem is the refusal to hire the people to do the cleaning and the walk throughs. i.e. daylight every so many hours, evenings that should increase to every hour, and that should continue till about one hour after closing time, then till morning no visits till morning (Most people should have gone home by then).
The biggest problem with public toilets is during winter, many homeless people seek shelter in them for protection from the cold weather. Most beat police officers leave the homeless alone, for there is no where else for them to go. Thus public toilets gets loaded with people, most people do not want to see. Once most people are no longer using those public toilets, support to keep them disappear and then the public toilets go into further decay and closure. Yes, you can say I am blaming the homeless, but that is like blaming the rain for making things wet, i.e. the homeless are the mechanism that leads to public toilets to disappear, but the problem is there is no place else for the homeless to go and the Police do not want to find their dead bodies (i.e.the police want the homeless to be alive not frozen to death).
When I was in Collage in the late 1980s, in cold weather, I saw many a Collage and City Police Officer walk by a homeless person sleeping in an enclosed area with an ATM inside the enclosed area. It was out of the weather and the officers had no where else to send the homeless person. I have NOT seen it recently, for most ATMs today are outside or behind locked doors and I am no longer in the inner city. On the other hand I suspect it is still going on for the Police still do not know where to send such people.
I mention this for that is how police in the days of public toilets handled the homeless in cold weather, left them stay in the public toilet for it was at least above freezing. Yes, Public Toilets and the Homeless are related and no one wants to really address the issue of the homeless.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)ladjf
(17,320 posts)Taitertots
(7,745 posts)This is stupid because people will just piss on the ground next to the wall. Or just piss at an angle so it splashes the person next to you.
Helen Borg
(3,963 posts)Taitertots
(7,745 posts)Helen Borg
(3,963 posts)Taitertots
(7,745 posts)Helen Borg
(3,963 posts)Taitertots
(7,745 posts)I'm not going to tell the women of San Fransisco where to pee.
Women's general inability to use public urinals is not a valid reason to oppose their installation.
Helen Borg
(3,963 posts)There needs to be something equivalent for women. If it has to be an enclosed space, then so be it.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)let's meet in the middle and just have squat toilets with a waist high wall.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)because of transmen whose bodies still menstruate.
Behind the Aegis
(53,919 posts)Tommy_Carcetti
(43,153 posts)Who would have known it would actually predict such a thing?
robertpaulsen
(8,632 posts)Had to double check that it wasn't The Onion.
BigDemVoter
(4,149 posts)"Shit back" walls, as I remember stepping over steaming piles of human feces every morning when I exited the courtyard of my old apartment building. . . . And I KNEW it was human, as human poo poo has a distinctive odor. . .
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Prism
(5,815 posts)San Francisco is kind of a . . . filthy city. It's pretty from afar and from various hill and canyon vantages, but you always know when you've entered downtown, because the stench of human excrement is overwhelming. I don't know how outdoor areas can reek worse than most subway systems I've been in, but somehow the city manages it.
Xipe Totec
(43,888 posts)Adenoid_Hynkel
(14,093 posts)LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Fact: these "pee-back" walls are in an area of the city with many homeless and most businesses have no public or patron-only bathrooms, public buildings are only open during weekdays, and like it or not people have to urinate between 5PM and 9-AM and on weekends.
I'd be fine with the "pee-backs" if a 24-hour access public restroom was adjacent to each painted wall. As it stands now all this does is move the urination spot to another wall or to a street lamp.
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/City-lamp-post-falls-and-urine-was-a-factor-6424634.php
nilram
(2,886 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)trillion
(1,859 posts)That's how I'm taking your San Francisco remark. Voting for Trump?
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)phleshdef
(11,936 posts)phleshdef
(11,936 posts)NickB79
(19,224 posts)The three-story-tall lamp post at Pine and Taylor streets snapped around 6:30 Monday and landed on a nearby car, almost crushing the driver. No one was injured.
A perfect storm of conditions rusted out the base of the pole, San Francisco Public Utilities Commission officials say, and caused it to fall. At the time, the lamp post, which was already old, was damaged by urine and weighed down by an oversized banner.
trillion
(1,859 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)Public urination is a multi-faceted problem. (Seriously -- I worked for a while at a think tank that had public urination as part of its brief...)