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Fri Jul 20, 2012, 03:21 PM

Wi. starts burning ballots July 23rd

Last edited Fri Jul 20, 2012, 10:09 PM - Edit history (1)

Important on edit:
Because of an error in interpretation my op is false. There is no real evidence that Wisconsin is about to burn these ballots. Fellow DUer dragonlady discovered the mistake and helped me to understand what happened, (see posts below from dragonlady).
Instead of deleting this whole thread, I chose to leave it up, first because it still is useful to alert DUers as to what is going on in Wisconsin, (except for the ballot burning), and second ....well I did chose to act the part of chicken little. So read on knowing that no evil doers are about to burn any evidence. Thanks and sorry for running around here with my feathers on fire.
chknltl



(please bear with me, posting and researching via this smart phone severely handicaps my efforts....the link I add below is one I can not even read with this phone. Hopefully it is THE link relevant to this post.)

We were all here bitterly disappointed with the results of the recent election in Wisconsin. So were her citizens. Despite the exit poll data showing a 50/50 split, the returns gave a sizeable win to the Governor, Scott Walker. A group of citizens in Racine county thinking something was amiss asked for and were granted permission to inspect the data for their precinct. They compared the paper ballots to numbers on the tabulators. They found discrepancies....lots of them. Oddly enough, in each case those discrepancies favored the Governor.

The accounting continued, sponsored primarily by Wisconsin Wave. Little by little this story began to leak out to the nation. Brad Friedman and Thom Hartmann have done stories on this topic. There are threads here in the DU and elsewhere (Daily Kos for one example) on this as well.

Imho. This story needed legs. I have no doubt that for the good citizens of Wisconsin, their voice in their government was overridden by those who do not believe in democracy. To what degree were those votes changed? Well it is likely that we shall never know. On Monday, July 23 the powers that be in Wisconsin will be burning the evidence, the paper ballots. This burning is not illegal, they are allowed to do so.

I know this isn't a big story here....Baingaite was the biggest story throughout the week. When first this story came to my attention late last week I wrote about it here and urged our fellow DUers to help Wisconsin Wave however they could. In my view this should have been bigger but alas it never grew legs. For those of you who went to the Wisconsin Wave link and rendered what assistance you could, thank you.


http://gab.wi.gov/clerks/guidance/election-material-destruction

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 19 replies Author Time Post
Reply Wi. starts burning ballots July 23rd (Original post)
chknltl Jul 2012 OP
HiPointDem Jul 2012 #1
Tom Rinaldo Jul 2012 #2
Doctor_J Jul 2012 #3
stlsaxman Jul 2012 #4
demwing Jul 2012 #5
chknltl Jul 2012 #7
chknltl Jul 2012 #8
chknltl Jul 2012 #10
BlueToTheBone Jul 2012 #6
chknltl Jul 2012 #9
BlueToTheBone Jul 2012 #11
chknltl Jul 2012 #12
dragonlady Jul 2012 #13
chknltl Jul 2012 #14
chknltl Jul 2012 #15
dragonlady Jul 2012 #16
chknltl Jul 2012 #19
eowyn_of_rohan Jul 2012 #17
eowyn_of_rohan Jul 2012 #18

Response to chknltl (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 03:22 PM

1. kr

 

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Response to chknltl (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 03:38 PM

2. k&r I'm sorry I wasn't tuned into this story earlier. It should have been huge

Although it seems to late to preserve all the evidence needed the precinct spot check that was done that showed the tabulator irregularities that ALL favored Walker still should be the basis for much more media attention

Even though it now will be impossible to prove what the state wide totals really were it should be possible for statistians to establish what the probabioity was for ALL errors to favor Walker in that one precinct. Reporting on the error induced percentage shift in that precinct should still be done also.

This is still a national story even if it can't now overturn the election results. Why were there different totals in a hand recount than in the tabulator recording? How wide was the error distortion between these two vote count methods compared to what the historical norm had always been in America between initial vote counts and recount totals for a typical precinct BEFORE hackable tabulators were introduced?

This is still a vote fraud poster child story. It illustrates a clear and present danger even though it may no longer be able to document a stolen election. Americans should not be allowed to be complacent about one sided patterns of errors like this in our current voting technoloby. Especially when exit polling predicted the hand recount vote tally but diverged from the "official" results.

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Response to chknltl (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 03:48 PM

3. Welcome to our new fascist state

get used to it.

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Response to chknltl (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 03:54 PM

4. ... and they finished off their diabolical scheme with an all too compliant "free press".

can't anyone put a stop to this?

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Response to chknltl (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 04:11 PM

5. I don't remember the exit polls being split

In fact, I don't remember the exit polls being specific on the outcome at all, focusing instead on whether voters had a favorable opinion of Unions, or whether recall were a legitimate process under given sets of circumstances, etc..

Can you support your assessment?

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Response to demwing (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 04:41 PM

7. yes

Start here, http://www.democraticunderground.com/101740796

This was Thom Hartmann piece on this, aired about the middle of last week. If memory serves, it addresses the exit poll/tabulators info that I mentioned. I will next go check over at Brad Blog to see what he has, he also spoke about exit polls not agreeing with tabulators.

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Response to demwing (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 04:55 PM

8. and here, link from bradblog

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=9396

(from Bradblog)

" The lack of verification of any of the ballots was even more disturbing given the fact that all reports by the mainstream media at the close of polls on Election Night had declared the Gubernatorial recall race to be a "dead heat," as based on raw Exit Polling data that the MSM are allowed to review throughout the day."

Plus, just prior to the election, we here at DU shared a bit of cautious optimism. Even though the polls were indicating a dead heat we felt that those polls were not reflecting Wisconsin's college student base. I read, (likely here in the DU), that the voter turnout was expected to set new highs as well which should have contributed even further to a Scott Walker loss.

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Response to demwing (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 05:22 PM

10. and here too:

http://wisconsinwave.org/handcount

(from Wisconsin Wave)

"Exit polls reported by major news outlets at 8pm put the race at a 50-50 dead heat. However less than an hour later, with only 25% of precincts reporting, those same outlets called the race for Walker. This early prediction was later matched by the official count which settled at 53% for Walker and 46% for Barrett"

As I said Upthread, the pre election polls and the exit polls suggested a 50/50 split that is where we got our cautious optimism from. Then things went south, fast! It never got discussed much here but you could tell we were pretty much in a funk over the results of that election. We took what little cheer we could out of the state senate flipping because one Seat went toa Dem. Don't get me wrong, that victory was huge, but it sorta got swallowed up in other stuff- stuff like an examination of the financial inequality that went on in that race due to citizens united. (Conservative estimates were that the Democratic challengers got outspent 8 to 1). Basically within a week of that election, we here at the DU had moved on.

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Response to chknltl (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 04:30 PM

6. This is HUGE!

What do you mean they are going to BURN the ballots? What reason did they give for not archiving them?

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Response to BlueToTheBone (Reply #6)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 05:04 PM

9. Wisconsin Wave link

http://wisconsinwave.org/handcount

Sorry it does not fully address your question but it does discuss it a bit. Let me do a little more digging to find where I read it at but I believe it is a space related issue, anotherwords, once the ballots have been counted, and the count authorised there is no further reason to hang on to them.

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Response to chknltl (Reply #9)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 05:22 PM

11. Riiight. n/t

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Response to BlueToTheBone (Reply #11)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 06:19 PM

12. Here is more

(from fellow DUer mojowork n)

This is all of it:

Destruction of Materials

Posted in

Elections

Date: July 20, 2012

Wisconsin Statutes dictate when election materials can be destroyed in 7.23.

Please consult the chart attached below:

http://gab.wi.gov/site

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Response to chknltl (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 06:48 PM

13. Not July 23

I think the confusion stems from the GAB's memo that mentions Wisconsin Statutes Section 7.23, part of the election law. That memo states that "materials and supplies associated with an election may (emphasis added) be destroyed according to the following chart unless there is a recount, notice of an election contest, or any contest or litigation pending with respect to the election." The chart specifies for ballots (in a state, county or local election) 30 days after the election. Not July 23, Section 7.23. The ballots could have been destroyed as of about July 6, but apparently that has not happened yet and Wisconsin Wave has made official requests for all the ballots, so the distress in this thread may be a bit premature.

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Response to dragonlady (Reply #13)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 07:02 PM

14. hope so...will recheck that imidiately. nt

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Response to dragonlady (Reply #13)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 07:11 PM

15. dragonlady, here is what got me started:

Post 26, update and link near bottom of post. This is the same link I am unable to open with my so called smart phone. If you are correct this is where it all for starred. Please check into it and let me know. I may have to post an embarrassing rebuttal or somesuch.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1084&pid=4175

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Response to chknltl (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 08:20 PM

16. My answer

The GAB definitely means Section 7.23 in the memo you mention, although they abbreviate that to just 7.23 and assume the clerks will understand.

We are all on edge about the voting process and all the nefarious things the Republicans are trying to do these days--photo ID, purging of voters, etc. This project of Wisconsin Wave is such a wonderful opportunity to find out whether Republicans actually used the vulnerability that goes along with electronic voting machines. My own feeling is that they may have used it in a very few selected elections that they considered very important, and Walker's election would qualify. It wouldn't be used routinely, as the Supreme Court recount showed. Electronic tampering holds such great risk if something unexpected comes along to expose them. In this case it would be Wanggaard's request for a recount and the observers looking at the governor's election results at the same time and noticing strange discrepancies. Whether there actually was election fraud in this case depends on what the counting finds.

Although in this case there was a misunderstanding shared by many people, we have to stay vigilant about attacks on our democracy. Thank you for caring.

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Response to dragonlady (Reply #16)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 09:57 PM

19. Thank You for research and opinion

I was unable to open link myself...it is I think a pdf and I can't download those to my knowledge. No defense there. Guess I lived up to my namesake.

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Response to chknltl (Original post)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 09:02 PM

17. If clerks do this they will be breaking Wisconsin law

they cannot legally destroy ballots or other election materials if there are open records requests filed for them. Requests have been filed in all 72 states -- not just by WI Wave but by others who filed them before the July 5th-- the 30th day after the election, and the 1st day they could have destroyed them legally, if ORRs HADN't been put in

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Response to eowyn_of_rohan (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 09:22 PM

18. Wisconsin Public Records Law --- Wis. Stat. 19.31-19.39

G. Obligation to preserve responsive records. When a public records request is made, the authority is
obligated to preserve responsive records for certain periods of time.
1. After receiving a request for inspection or copying of a record, the authority may not destroy the
record until after the request is granted or until at least sixty days after the request is denied
(ninety days if the requester is a committed or incarcerated person). Wis. Stat. 19.35(5).
2. If the authority receives written notice that a mandamus action relating to a record has been
commenced under Wis. Stat. 19.37 (an action to enforce the public records law), the record
may not be destroyed until after the order of the court relating to that record is issued and the
deadline for appealing that order has passed. Wis. Stat. 19.35(5).
3. If the court order in a mandamus action is appealed, the record may not be destroyed until the
court order resolving the appeal is issued. Wis. Stat. 19.35(5).
4. If the court orders production of any record and the order is not appealed, the record may not be
destroyed until after the request for inspection or copying has been granted. Wis. Stat.
19.35(5).

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