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Mon Jul 16, 2012, 08:45 PM

 

'Made In America' Policies Hugely Popular, Survey Shows. Free traders, CAN YOU HEAR US NOW???

http://news.yahoo.com/made-america-policies-hugely-popular-survey-shows-210425838--abc-news-politics.html

While President Obama and Mitt Romney bicker over whose policies will send more jobs overseas, there is one side of the job creation coin that both candidates agree on: that the government should do its darndest to keep manufacturing jobs in America.

Unlike many of the job proposals both candidates are pushing, "Buy America" policies that encourage the government to buy products that are made in the U.S. whenever possible are hugely popular across party lines, according to a national survey commissioned by the Alliance for American Manufacturing and the United Steelworkers.

"On the federal level if we can expose where we can see tax dollars leaking overseas we can reverse it because there is the political will to do that," said Scott Paul, the executive director of the Alliance for American Manufacturing.

Overwhelming majorities of people from all political parties said they supported "Buy America" policies that would mandate that taxpayer money can only be used on goods that were made in America.

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Reply 'Made In America' Policies Hugely Popular, Survey Shows. Free traders, CAN YOU HEAR US NOW??? (Original post)
Zalatix Jul 2012 OP
fascisthunter Jul 2012 #1
OhioChick Jul 2012 #4
Scuba Jul 2012 #8
Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #13
Dragonfli Jul 2012 #19
Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #22
Romulox Jul 2012 #24
amandabeech Jul 2012 #33
fascisthunter Jul 2012 #68
woo me with science Jul 2012 #20
pampango Jul 2012 #21
woo me with science Jul 2012 #30
girl gone mad Jul 2012 #67
Marr Jul 2012 #32
fascisthunter Jul 2012 #69
hughee99 Jul 2012 #74
fascisthunter Jul 2012 #86
hughee99 Jul 2012 #87
sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #92
arcane1 Jul 2012 #2
Omaha Steve Jul 2012 #3
orpupilofnature57 Jul 2012 #5
randome Jul 2012 #6
reformist2 Jul 2012 #9
Zalatix Jul 2012 #10
xmas74 Jul 2012 #65
peacebird Jul 2012 #11
Comrade_McKenzie Jul 2012 #14
HiPointDem Jul 2012 #18
randome Jul 2012 #25
jtown1123 Jul 2012 #66
Zalatix Jul 2012 #97
Vincardog Jul 2012 #7
Nye Bevan Jul 2012 #12
raouldukelives Jul 2012 #15
momsadem Jul 2012 #16
Zalatix Jul 2012 #23
grantcart Jul 2012 #27
Zalatix Jul 2012 #31
Romulox Jul 2012 #35
amandabeech Jul 2012 #34
Romulox Jul 2012 #36
momsadem Jul 2012 #37
Romulox Jul 2012 #61
HiPointDem Jul 2012 #17
Romulox Jul 2012 #26
Zalatix Jul 2012 #42
Romulox Jul 2012 #60
Zalatix Jul 2012 #71
Romulox Jul 2012 #72
Zalatix Jul 2012 #75
Romulox Jul 2012 #77
Zalatix Jul 2012 #78
Marrah_G Jul 2012 #28
Lionessa Jul 2012 #29
SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2012 #38
Odin2005 Jul 2012 #40
SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2012 #43
Zalatix Jul 2012 #46
SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2012 #48
Zalatix Jul 2012 #51
Zalatix Jul 2012 #41
SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2012 #44
Zalatix Jul 2012 #47
SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2012 #50
Zalatix Jul 2012 #52
SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2012 #53
Zalatix Jul 2012 #55
SickOfTheOnePct Jul 2012 #56
Zalatix Jul 2012 #57
treestar Jul 2012 #80
Zalatix Jul 2012 #83
treestar Jul 2012 #90
Zalatix Jul 2012 #91
treestar Jul 2012 #93
Zalatix Jul 2012 #94
Sea-Dog Jul 2012 #70
Zalatix Jul 2012 #73
Sea-Dog Jul 2012 #95
Zalatix Jul 2012 #96
Odin2005 Jul 2012 #39
pampango Jul 2012 #49
Zalatix Jul 2012 #54
Odin2005 Jul 2012 #59
Romulox Jul 2012 #63
Zalatix Jul 2012 #79
treestar Jul 2012 #81
Zax2me Jul 2012 #45
Zalatix Jul 2012 #58
Romulox Jul 2012 #62
ananda Jul 2012 #64
aquart Jul 2012 #76
treestar Jul 2012 #82
Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #84
Zalatix Jul 2012 #85
Tierra_y_Libertad Jul 2012 #88
Zalatix Jul 2012 #89

Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 08:51 PM

1. every time I read "Free Trader" I think, "Free Traitor"

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Response to fascisthunter (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 08:56 PM

4. Same here n/t

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Response to fascisthunter (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:07 PM

8. +1,000

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Response to fascisthunter (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:02 PM

13. Well I'm voting for a pro-NAFTA guy in November.

You?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #13)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:24 AM

19. Which one?

When it comes to corporate policies, there is no lesser evil.
You are the first one I have met that is voting because you want "free trade" and proudly voting FOR Nafta. Most just realize all we are allowed to vote for are social issues and so have chosen Obama.

You really like that third way shite?

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #19)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:54 AM

22. I know I'm going out on a limb here compared with most of DU,

but I think Bill Clinton was a good President. And I thought Al Gore wiped the floor with Ross Perot in the NAFTA debate.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #22)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:21 AM

24. History has proven Al Gore wrong. That's easy to see, with hindsight, and Al won't mention NAFTA,

ever, as he knows the horrible tarnish it has put upon him.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #24)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:47 AM

33. Yeah. The "giant sucking sound" sure has sucked a lot of jobs out of

West Michigan, where I grew up. Geeze, even Steel Case is shipping some production to Mexico.

A few specialized manufacturing operations have brought work back from China, though, because of communications problems and poor quality. I hope that it is just the first trickle of a torrent, but I'm not holding my breath.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #13)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 12:46 PM

68. yes, Obama.... but free trade still sucks

it's destroying our democracy and you could give two shits. I would like to believe Obama does care.

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Response to fascisthunter (Reply #1)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:30 AM

20. It is no accident that the free trade apologists

also reliably defend indefinite detention, warrantless surveillance, attacks on Occupy, bank bailouts and settlements, austerity budgets, drone wars, etc., etc., etc.

The DLC/Third Way was *never* a grass roots movement. It is a top-down corporate infiltration purposely created and bankrolled by the one percent. That this corporate/neocon/right-wing/police state crap is tolerated in our party is precisely the reason the one percent get away with what they are doing.

Occupy.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #20)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:07 AM

21. What if one is pro-trade but anti-"indefinite detention, warrantless surveillance, attacks on Occupy

bank bailouts and settlements, austerity budgets, drone wars, etc., etc., etc." In addition, what if that same person is pro-regulation, national health care, safety net, union and environment? You could call him or her "European" or "Canadian" or "Australian" but what if that person lives in the US? Does he or she still meet your definition of "DLC/Third Way"?

FDR dismantled the high republican tariffs passed in 1921, 1922 and 1930 and helped create GATT, the IMF and World Bank (each with multilateral representation and control) to make it difficult for those "republican" days to return. If FDR were alive today I think he would be anti-"indefinite detention, warrantless surveillance, attacks on Occupy, bank bailouts and settlements (at least he would regulate them much more strictly if he did bail them out), austerity budgets, drone wars, etc." as well as "pro-regulation, national health care, safety net, union and environment". I don't believe that he would be in favor high tariffs or unilateral US action on trade now any more than he was during the Great Depression.

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Response to pampango (Reply #21)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:30 AM

30. Anyone who reads DU *and* the news on a regular basis

has observed the patterns and knows full well what I am talking about.

We have a Third Way problem. We do not by any stretch of the imagination have a problem with too many people trying to act like FDR.



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Response to pampango (Reply #21)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:36 AM

67. As you have been told previously, FDR reversed course..

when these trade policies failed to improve exports and create jobs.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #20)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:39 AM

32. Absolutely. They all seem to go hand-in-hand.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #20)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 12:47 PM

69. they are right wingers as far as I am concerned

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Response to fascisthunter (Reply #69)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:00 PM

74. Others might call them Kool-aid drinkers, since it sounds

like they're willing to defend Obama no matter what happens. When did those blindly willing to follow a Democratic president become considered "right wingers"?

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Response to hughee99 (Reply #74)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:46 PM

86. when he backs right leaning policies

they are there to defend him against the most liberal voices on DU, who BTW, represent traditional democratic party values.

When you defend policies that screw my family members, friends and neighbors, you are no better than the right wing. Thankfully, Obama is the lesser of two evils.

As for the posters, I could care less... they will never govern as President.

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Response to fascisthunter (Reply #86)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:56 PM

87. Yes, but if Obama switched positions on all of the above,

many would continue to defend his new position as well. The blind defenders here would be more accurately described as "minions", which are better than the right wing in one respect, you only have to change 1 person's opinion (Obama) to get all of them on your side.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #20)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 07:18 PM

92. Well said. I think you have articulated what a lot of people have

noticed. And it's something that must be dealt with regarding our party. If they think we are going away and leaving it to them, they better think again. We have only two parties in this country and anyone who supports all those policies, does not belong in the Party of the People. They have their own party and it's way past time to take back the Democratic Party from the corporate infiltrators/third wayers who seem to feel it now belongs to them.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 08:51 PM

2. And not just manufacturing jobs!

Even in this era of being a "service economy" too many of those jobs are being shipped out too

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 08:52 PM

3. Thanks for posting

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:03 PM

6. 'Hugely popular' in theory. But the reality is that people don't buy American in great numbers.

Our buying habits are still primarily based on low price. I wish it was different.

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Response to randome (Reply #6)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:07 PM

9. This is why you need policies to support domestic industry - otherwise it's a race to the bottom.

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Response to randome (Reply #6)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:22 PM

10. Lack of alternatives.

 

Not sure how it is in your area, but good luck finding a Libman mop in stock...

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #10)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:19 AM

65. They sell out at fast as we get them in stock.

Our local Walmart stocks them, as do a couple of grocery stores, the hardware store and the farm supply store. They sell out that fast-everyone around here wants them.

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Response to randome (Reply #6)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:45 PM

11. We always look at country of origin, and if there IS a "made in America" option, we buy it.

Sadly it is very hard to find these days. And yes, we are fortunate to both be working, and able to pay the somewhat higher cost.

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Response to randome (Reply #6)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:04 PM

14. No one has enough money to vote with their wallet. nt

 

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Response to randome (Reply #6)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 02:40 AM

18. that's what national policy is for. you enact policies that make it cheaper for domestic producers

 

and more expensive for foreign ones.

but that policy is not popular with our corporate elite. they make more profits offshoring and getting tax breaks for it.

plus they want to break domestic unions and workers, the better to further their one world for corporations agenda.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #18)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:22 AM

25. I agree with what you guys are saying about setting the right policy.

But we also need to be careful not to set off a trade war with other countries. Like it or not, our economy depends on foreign trade. I'm not saying it's pointless to try but there are needles to thread in this area.

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Response to randome (Reply #6)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:26 AM

66. AFL-CIO and labor groups are providing Made in America Lists

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:05 PM

7. If the TPP is enacted "Buy American" will be illegal

Last edited Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:57 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:56 PM

12. Both of my family's vehicles were made in America.

Our Honda Pilot was built in Lincoln, AL, and our Toyota Camry was built in Georgetown, KY.

I have been very happy with the quality of both of these vehicles. American-made does not necessarily mean lower quality.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:33 PM

15. I don't want it all "Made in America".

I want it made by struggling people around the world. I want it made to the ideals, morals and ethics we claim to want to hold ourselves too. Under the same and hopefully improving environmental standards we have at home. Under the same wage laws. I want us to be a force to make the world better. To actually raise the bar of liberty in the world. Not as the mighty arm of greed, crushing and suffocating the starving masses.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 02:31 AM

16. Well That Eliminates Ford, GM, Chrysler, MicroSoft, Apple, Nike....

 

The problem with this idea is that it assumes products are still made in America. Can you name one?
I'm not saying I oppose the idea, I'm saying the difficulty in defining "Made in America" is high.

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Response to momsadem (Reply #16)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:19 AM

23. Time to reopen those domestic factories.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #23)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:25 AM

27. I would prefer to concentrate on opening high skilled high tech production here and leave


low tech, low skilled, minimum wage manufacturing overseas.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #27)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:33 AM

31. No. Not just no, but HELL no.

 

There will never be enough high skilled high tech production work for our unemployed populace. The nature of the industry dictates there won't be enough.

We need those low tech, low skilled jobs kept here just to fill in the gap.

You will never find a way to employ the people we have looking for work, without the low end. Forget it, it ain't happening without the low end.

Oh, did I forget to mention you have ZERO chance of closing the unemployment gap without low-end manufacturing? Just making sure I reminded you of that.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #27)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 05:05 PM

35. Not me. If I'm buying "high tech" goods, the LAST thing I want to see is "Made in Mississippi".

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Response to momsadem (Reply #16)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:53 AM

34. Many Ford and GM vehicles are assembled in the US and have many US made parts.

Both Ford and GM have operations all over the world, but most of their products have considerable US content.

Just stay away from the Ford Fusion. It's assembled in Mexico, and many suppliers have put up plants down there as well. The Ford F-150 is made here in the U.S. and in other countries, including Mexico, because it is popular all over. The U.S. models are built here, but I wish that Ford would build for export here.

Chrysler also builds here. Fiat, its owner, does not make Fiats here, at least not yet.

I stay away from Apple and Nike. New Balance still makes at least some of its shoes here, though. I wear New Balance because it sells a wide variety of sizes including mine (which Nike doesnt) and I've had good luck with them.

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Response to momsadem (Reply #16)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 05:06 PM

36. This post is 100% nonsense. It's just what Toyota drivers tell themselves to feel better. nt

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Response to Romulox (Reply #36)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:06 PM

37. No Romulex, you're wrong. It's not "Nonsense"

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/american-cars/story?id=13801165

2010's Top American Manufactured Cars*:
1.Toyota - Camry
2. Honda - Accord
3. Ford - Escape
4. Ford - Focus
5. Chevrolet - Malibu
6. Honda - Odyssey
7. Dodge - Ram 1500 (Quad cab and crew cab only)
8. Toyota - Tundra
9. Jeep - Wrangler
10. Toyota - Sienna

Notice that five of the ten are foreign brands?

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/MadeInAmerica/page?id=13795239

Cadillacs CTS? About 65% made in America. Dodge Durango is better at 69%. Chevy Camaro is 66%. Honda Accord? 80%

Additionally, there is no such thing as an "American Car Company". You don't think Ford is in Europe? Where do you think the Daimler in Daimler Chrysler comes from?
So I've owned American cars and foreign cars. I never buy new so how important is my purchase? Well, I suppose I could lose sleep over the dividends some fat cat American Executive who ships jobs overseas is making. Or I could buy a new Accord and know I put more American workers to work.
I do neither. New cars are among the worst possible investments one can make.

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Response to momsadem (Reply #37)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:17 AM

61. Way to walk it back! Just upthread, you said: "Well That Eliminates Ford, GM, Chrysler". Nonsense.

As you have just admitted.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 02:38 AM

17. kr.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:24 AM

26. Nonsense. Well over 50% of the cars sold in this country are foreign nameplates.

And cars represent the second largest outlay a typical family makes, after a home.

Americans are voting KIA, with their wallets. Then they mumble some platitudes about "buying American". In its most advanced stage, they start claiming that "their KIA is 'more American!' than any American car!" (it doesn't matter if it's a Kia or a Lexus, btw, this claim is fairly universal.)

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Response to Romulox (Reply #26)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:32 PM

42. Made in the USA for American markets by either foreign or domestic companies, not a problem.

 

Made in China? In no way acceptable. We can do it here.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #42)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:16 AM

60. Union? Whatever (I guess???)!

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Response to Romulox (Reply #60)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 01:50 PM

71. Why not? Unions rock.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #71)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 01:51 PM

72. Not a single of foreign car companies that assemble in the US are unionized. Hard to spin that.

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Response to Romulox (Reply #72)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:09 PM

75. True. It's better than assembling them in Mexico or China.

 

We need to push the Big Three to not only make their cars here, but also make their parts here. The Chevrolet Equinox stomps the CRAP out of Japanese hybrid SUVs in gas mileage. It beats the HYBRID SUVs. The Big Three clearly can win this if they try.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #75)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:13 PM

77. Plenty of cars made in the USA by UAW workers. It's hard to justify a scab car, period. nt

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Response to Romulox (Reply #77)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:16 PM

78. I was saying they also need to make the car parts here.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:26 AM

28. They should have done this long ago

Also the green technology money, the infrastructure money...that should have been earmarked to be spend on American good only. THAT would have created alot more jobs then wind turbines and solar panels made in china with chinese resources.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:29 AM

29. Hint, hint....

 

we are no longer the market the free traders care about, and they understand point #2 below.

Secondly, thinking and talking about buy American is so easy, and so patriotic.
Finding, and buying made in America is a whole 'nother issue, that takes time and energy no one wants screw with since it's right there on the shelf at Walmart "for less".

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:16 PM

38. Buy American won't be popular

When people see what the cost is. Bottom line, goods produced in America often (not always) cost significantly more than those produced overseas. You can impose tariffs that bring the cost of imported goods up to the cost of American made goods, but if the price is still too high for people to afford, what will it matter?

And imposing tariffs will surely start a trade war that the U.S. will find difficult to win.

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Response to SickOfTheOnePct (Reply #38)


Response to Odin2005 (Reply #40)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:34 PM

43. You know

I'm a little sick of you calling me a troll whenever I post something you don't agree with.

If you have something, then alert - otherwise STFU and stop making baseless accusations.

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Response to SickOfTheOnePct (Reply #43)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:03 PM

46. And we're sick of your US Chamber of Commerce-approved arguments.

 

So that makes us even.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #46)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:14 PM

48. It's not Chamber of Commerce to state the fact that U.S goods are often more expensive

If you can even find them.

If a t-shirt made in China is $5 and one made in the U.S. is $8, putting a tariff on the Chinese shirt to make it the same price of the U.S shirt still makes it more expensive. Sure, the U.S. shirt is now on the price level of the Chinese shirt, so there is no advantage to buying foreign, but it's still more expensive. And the t-shirt example is at the very bottom of the price range. When you start talking about TVs, computers, radios, you name it, you're moving up the price ladder to more and more expensive goods.

I would love it if there were an American made option for every single thing I buy, and whenever I could afford the higher price, I would gladly pay it. But if prices rise to the point that the lower or middle class can't afford the items, it won't matter where they're made.

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Response to SickOfTheOnePct (Reply #48)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:35 PM

51. It is a US Chamber of Commerce argument because it is a half-truth at best.

 

1) You ignore the fact that people out of work cannot afford a $5 Chinese-made shirt.

2) You also ignore the fact that putting Americans out of work to make shirts in China means we have to pay out for unemployment benefits and then welfare. People who lose their jobs to outsourcing, do not get better jobs. They rarely find work, and when they do, it pays less, but their cost of living goes up.

3) You ignore the fact that offshoring American jobs contributes directly to our trade deficit, which is by far the BIGGEST in the world, without factoring in imported oil. This directly contributes to the devaluation of the US dollar, and the increase of our national debt. The devaluation of the dollar makes imports more expensive. Thus, bringing about the very scenario you claim to be afraid of.

4) Finally, in order to keep $5 shirts from becoming $8 shirts, we have to keep foreign wages down. This is the one that no free trader has an answer for. You'd be the first to address this, if you could. Historical case in point: Haiti's Government recently proposed a major increase in minimum wages. The United States stepped in, because such an increase would mean Haitian-made textiles would become more expensive for Americans. In other words, your dreaded $5 shirts becoming $8 shirts. The United States fought the increase in the Haitian minimum wage in order to keep their wages down and keep their people poor so that selfish Americans could keep their shirts at $5. You wouldn't happen to be one of those selfish Americans... would you?

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Response to SickOfTheOnePct (Reply #38)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:30 PM

41. Buy American is popular because people have seen the horrible cost of NOT hiring Americans.

 

And it's far greater than the cost of tariffs.

China has already been waging a trade war against America. When we fight back, they will implode.

Oh and yeah, obvious troll is obvious.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #41)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:36 PM

44. My response to Odin2005 applies to you as well

Your tag team bully exercises are getting old.

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Response to SickOfTheOnePct (Reply #44)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:04 PM

47. Your hackneyed and horribly inaccurate arguments are getting old. So, again, we are even.

 

Get used to people fighting back at pro-offshoring arguments. It's the norm now.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #47)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:15 PM

50. Show me where I made a pro-offshoring statement

Put up or shut up.

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Response to SickOfTheOnePct (Reply #50)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:37 PM

52. You said it right here, twice.

 

Post #38, #50

You argue that we need offshoring because if we don't offshore TVs and shirts and computers, prices will go up. That is a pro-offshoring argument no matter how vehemently you deny it.

I've put up. Now you can shut up.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #52)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:42 PM

53. It's amazing how many times you can be wrong in one thread

I'm not promoting off-shoring nor am I saying that we need it. I'm simply saying that prices will go up if we go to all American-made goods via tariffs. And when that happens, there are many items that will be priced out of reach of a good number of consumers.

You may not like it, but it is what it is. You've put up nothing, and no, I won't shut up. I don't give in to bullies, so go try it on someone else that might be afraid of your tactics.

I'm not that person.

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Response to SickOfTheOnePct (Reply #53)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:48 PM

55. It's amazing how many times you can refuse to own up to what you said.

 

"I'm simply saying that prices will go up if we go to all American-made goods via tariffs. And when that happens, there are many items that will be priced out of reach of a good number of consumers."

This is a pro-offshoring argument. It is also a laughably incorrect argument.

You are trying to scare Americans away from fighting for their jobs. And you are the one who told me to put up or shut up, so I shot it right back at you, so don't you start whining about me telling you to shut up.

I've put up everything. Your argument is dead on arrival. You and I are now both working together to discredit everything you've said so far.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #55)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:52 PM

56. You're wrong again, but keep on tryiing

It is amusing.

Of course, coming from someone that opposes any kind of technological advances, I shouldn't be surprised.

Must suck to be wrong so much of the time.

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Response to SickOfTheOnePct (Reply #56)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:55 PM

57. You're still in denial. And now you're being dishonest.

 

You got caught trying to scare people away from opposing offshoring with your "everything will be more expensive!" rants. And now you're lying about what I said before, too. You're not only habitually wrong, but you're dishonest to boot.

90% stand with me. Who stands with you? Ah yes, the US Chamber of Commerce, which has made all the same crappy arguments in order to scare Americans away.

BTW, like you, I am relentless.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #47)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:21 PM

80. What is old about $8 is more than $5?

You've got to deal with reality here. If what you say is so true, Walmart would close down. No American would go there.

It's the same people you claim are fed up who are part of the problem's cause.

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Response to treestar (Reply #80)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:26 PM

83. It is an old smokescreen tactic, and a half-truth at that.

 

1) Employed people can afford a $8 shirt better than unemployed people can afford a $5 shirt.

2) Wal Mart is NOT going to close down over a price increase from $5 to $8.

3) Hiring Americans to produce shirts for America means lower unemployment and higher wages.

4) People are still going to buy shirts, they're not going to go out naked.

5) This is the one that none of you seem to want to address. In order to keep $5 shirts from becoming $8 shirts, we have to keep foreign wages down. Historical case in point: Haiti's Government recently proposed a major increase in minimum wages. The United States stepped in, because such an increase would mean Haitian-made textiles would become more expensive for Americans. In other words, your dreaded $5 shirts becoming $8 shirts. The United States fought the increase in the Haitian minimum wage in order to keep their wages down and keep their people poor so that selfish Americans could keep their shirts at $5.

You wouldn't happen to be one of those selfish Americans who wants $5 shirts even if it means holding down foreigners' wages... would you?

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #83)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 04:44 PM

90. Are you in agreement with point 5?

I don't know how the US can control Haitian wages by stepping in. But why should Haitian wages stay down? It's the fact the wages overseas are so much lower that causes the jobs to go there, so Americans can get goods cheaper than they otherwise would have. Since you're so against this then you should want others' wages to rise to the level of ours, so that there is no price difference and the transport costs trump the overseas made goods.

Most Americans are going to buy the $5 shirt, but in doing so they are causing other Americans to lose a job because it would be an $8 shirt otherwise. What is so hard about figuring that out? The only way it will balance out is for Haitian wages to go up. (or American wages to go down to the same as Haitian wages, something I'm sure you're not going to approve).



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Response to treestar (Reply #90)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 07:14 PM

91. Do you really have to ask if I approve of what happened in #5? Really?

 

Not just no, but HELL the fuck NO. I want the wages of workers in all foreign nations to rise to our level. What you don't understand is I don't want them doing it by taking jobs from us.

As for what happened in Haiti, read this.

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-06-03/news/30003110_1_minimum-wage-haitians-garment-workers

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #91)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 08:48 PM

93. At this point you're agreeing with me

You must be suffering from a fever.

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Response to treestar (Reply #93)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:40 PM

94. It doesn't bother me if we're agreeing on some things.

 

YOU are not the focus of my ire. Offshoring American jobs, putting Americans out of work, exploiting other nations, holding down their wages, and exporting pollution to other nations instead of strongly encouraging everyone around the world to adhere to the cleanest industrial standards possible, is the focus of my ire.

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Response to SickOfTheOnePct (Reply #38)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 01:10 PM

70. Rec

 

+ Tariffs are a two way street as you say.

worry not It'll never see the light of day its just vote winning verbal diarrhea

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Response to Sea-Dog (Reply #70)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 01:52 PM

73. China and others already have tariffs against us. Plus they devalue their currency.

 

Why is it okay for other nations to have trade barriers against us, but you argue we can't have it against them?

Nobody ever seems to answer this...

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #73)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 06:17 AM

95. btw your saying its ok for trade barriers not us

 

in fact your asking for them

merely pointing out what will happen

but it will not happen anyway its just talk

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Response to Sea-Dog (Reply #95)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 10:08 AM

96. Trade barriers have happened.

 

Obama put up tariffs against China's solar industry. China's fighting back; and their odds are not good considering Obama has won against them in the WTO twice already.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:06 PM

39. The Free Traders will do what they usually do, scream "racist" and "xenophobe".

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #39)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:14 PM

49. A little hyper-sensitive there. I see the accusation of the use of "racist" and "xenophobe" by

trade supporters more often that I have actually seen it used here. It seems that anti-trade folks like to play the "they always call us racists and xenophobes" card even when, as in this thread, no such accusation has been made. The reason for that is to make the other side look irrational and hysterical, perhaps?

Obviously there are racists and xenophobes on the right (teabaggers in the US and the far right in Europe) who don't like any kind of trade because it is by definition done with foreigners. I don't think many of us will deny that there are racists and xenophobes among our teabaggers, others in the republican base and in the European far right (France's National Front is probably the biggest example).

I trust that there are few racists and xenophobes at DU. The few there may be don't last long. (Any one make such an accusation here better have something to back it up with.)

That's a great thing since it means that DU'ers don't have a problem dealing with people of other races and nationalities like many on the right do. I think we all strive to treat all races and nationalities fairly and equitably. The question is how to go about that in a manner that is good liberal public policy.

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Response to pampango (Reply #49)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:44 PM

54. So you deny that free traders have used that accusation? Really?

 

And you yourself have repeatedly tried to compare opposition to offshoring to being like Republicans.

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=209021

Support for "free trade" is indeed declining and, as I'm sure you'll admit, that decline is being led by republicans and teabaggers

Remember that?

Now you see the truth: the polls show that 90% of Democrats AND Republicans are on my side about this. Remember, I told you this was the case and you disputed it with me across several threads. Look at the polls now. Didn't I tell you this was the case?

Remember this?
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/1002208330#post5
But don't the polls show that Democrats are the only group

that supports "free trade" as being good for the US.


You may not have said that we were racists or xenophobes, but you tried very hard to paint me and other anti-offshoring activists as being more aligned with Republicans than Democrats.

Now that you see the polls showing 90% opposition to offshoring... what do you have to say?

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Response to pampango (Reply #49)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:16 PM

59. Uh, you are one of the Free Traders who imply that Protectionism is xenophobic.

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Response to pampango (Reply #49)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:35 AM

63. What's funny? NOBODY mentioned you, but you still managed to appear to take offense.

Were your ears burning?

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Response to Romulox (Reply #63)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:17 PM

79. Like someone else here once said, throw a tennis ball into a pack of dogs

 

and the first one to yelp is the one you hit.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #39)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:23 PM

81. that depends on how it is expressed

If it is put in terms of non-Americans not being entitled to participate in the economy, it could be.

But most of this is irrational. We don't like jobs going abroad. But just railing about it won't help.

It's a more nuanced question - prices are affected, costs of running businesses are affected, and people here keep buying Chinese stuff. A daily ranting thread of DU condemning "the corporatists" "the banksters" and the "fat cats" has not decreased unemployment here.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:40 PM

45. Again, Obama not clean. But Mr. Clean when compared to alternative.

 

President Obama doesn't have a stellar record when it comes to shipping jobs overseas.
But Romney?
He's another planet of shipping.
It's not the lesser of two evils here - there is a big difference.
But I think Obama could do a lot better - I expected better.

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Response to Zax2me (Reply #45)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:04 PM

58. He needs to summon the ghosts of Teddy Roosevelt and FDR.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #58)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:19 AM

62. The Obama admin gave HALF A BILLION $$$ to Fisker to make cars in Finland.

Can you imagine FDR doing that?

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:37 AM

64. Fair Trade please.

Thank you.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:12 PM

76. It only works if we actually buy American.

My mom makes a point of mentioning it to the manager when she sees something she wants and then has to put it back because of the Made in China label.

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Response to aquart (Reply #76)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:24 PM

82. It's damn near impossible, too

At least in terms of going out to stores and shopping the old fashioned way.

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Response to Zalatix (Original post)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:29 PM

84. Catch-22. People lose jobs because of outsourcing. Can't afford to buy American because too costly.

The idea of tariffs may be popular and "Buy American" makes a nice slogan but when the average shopper discovers that the T-shirt or toaster that he could get for $10 now costs $20 the popularity of the idea and the slogan will quickly fade.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #84)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:35 PM

85. This is also why the Government fights wage increases for foreigners.

 

Haiti's Government recently proposed a major increase in minimum wages. The United States stepped in, because such an increase would mean Haitian-made textiles would become more expensive for Americans. In other words, your dreaded $5 shirts becoming $8 shirts. The United States fought the increase in the Haitian minimum wage in order to keep their wages down and keep their people poor so that selfish Americans could keep their shirts at $5.

The day our government fails to keep foreign wage increases from happening, the price of goods will go up anyway...

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #85)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 03:16 PM

88. "Workers of the WORLD unite" is still something to strive for.

When just about everybody is getting screwed by the capitalists it's about time that everybody got together and said "Enough".

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #88)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 03:48 PM

89. Hard to do when the free traders are saying "but things will cost more if we do that!"

 

But yeah, I agree 100% with your point.

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