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Mon Jul 16, 2012, 05:42 PM

Occupy Denver Posts Terrible Message

Colorado is now tied in the latest poll - and this is what they offer.



They've lost me. http://www.facebook.com/occupydenver

168 replies, 18294 views

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Arrow 168 replies Author Time Post
Reply Occupy Denver Posts Terrible Message (Original post)
otohara Jul 2012 OP
fishwax Jul 2012 #1
otohara Jul 2012 #9
Hissyspit Jul 2012 #120
UnrepentantLiberal Jul 2012 #134
LibAsHell Jul 2012 #2
Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #28
Hissyspit Jul 2012 #58
Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #60
Hissyspit Jul 2012 #61
Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #63
EOTE Jul 2012 #73
Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #84
kimbutgar Jul 2012 #3
randome Jul 2012 #4
Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #30
randome Jul 2012 #39
Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #55
MADem Jul 2012 #153
turtlerescue1 Jul 2012 #5
otohara Jul 2012 #11
turtlerescue1 Jul 2012 #23
MrSlayer Jul 2012 #6
randome Jul 2012 #8
MrSlayer Jul 2012 #10
zappaman Jul 2012 #15
MADem Jul 2012 #27
Hissyspit Jul 2012 #29
randome Jul 2012 #41
Hissyspit Jul 2012 #56
Fire Walk With Me Jul 2012 #77
4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #144
Fire Walk With Me Jul 2012 #149
4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #162
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #99
Robb Jul 2012 #7
vaberella Jul 2012 #35
mmonk Jul 2012 #12
RZM Jul 2012 #13
otohara Jul 2012 #14
SidDithers Jul 2012 #16
pintobean Jul 2012 #24
dionysus Jul 2012 #70
UnrepentantLiberal Jul 2012 #133
SidDithers Jul 2012 #142
UnrepentantLiberal Jul 2012 #146
SidDithers Jul 2012 #151
backscatter712 Jul 2012 #17
pinboy3niner Jul 2012 #18
sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #31
randome Jul 2012 #37
sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #40
Zorra Jul 2012 #65
whatchamacallit Jul 2012 #86
Zorra Jul 2012 #88
KamaAina Jul 2012 #90
Warren DeMontague Jul 2012 #19
Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #32
Pirate Smile Jul 2012 #20
Fire Walk With Me Jul 2012 #74
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #85
MineralMan Jul 2012 #21
arely staircase Jul 2012 #22
DevonRex Jul 2012 #25
MADem Jul 2012 #26
sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #33
MADem Jul 2012 #50
sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #59
B Calm Jul 2012 #49
4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #145
MADem Jul 2012 #150
4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #160
MADem Jul 2012 #163
Zanzoobar Jul 2012 #34
vaberella Jul 2012 #36
joshcryer Jul 2012 #38
LeftyMom Jul 2012 #42
Robb Jul 2012 #43
LeftyMom Jul 2012 #45
Robb Jul 2012 #46
MADem Jul 2012 #52
Jamaal510 Jul 2012 #44
zappaman Jul 2012 #51
MADem Jul 2012 #54
SidDithers Jul 2012 #69
MADem Jul 2012 #108
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #94
MADem Jul 2012 #107
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #109
MADem Jul 2012 #110
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #111
MADem Jul 2012 #115
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #117
MADem Jul 2012 #122
zappaman Jul 2012 #125
lonestarnot Jul 2012 #47
randome Jul 2012 #53
AtomicKitten Jul 2012 #48
Tarheel_Dem Jul 2012 #57
sabrina 1 Jul 2012 #62
AtomicKitten Jul 2012 #68
cecilfirefox Jul 2012 #64
Fire Walk With Me Jul 2012 #75
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #95
U4ikLefty Jul 2012 #66
limpyhobbler Jul 2012 #67
leftynyc Jul 2012 #71
Fire Walk With Me Jul 2012 #78
leftynyc Jul 2012 #100
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #102
leftynyc Jul 2012 #112
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #113
Fire Walk With Me Jul 2012 #118
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #81
Arkana Jul 2012 #89
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #93
leftynyc Jul 2012 #101
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #103
leftynyc Jul 2012 #114
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #116
zappaman Jul 2012 #126
Fire Walk With Me Jul 2012 #72
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #82
Fire Walk With Me Jul 2012 #87
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #91
Fire Walk With Me Jul 2012 #96
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #98
Fire Walk With Me Jul 2012 #76
Douglas Carpenter Jul 2012 #79
randome Jul 2012 #83
kctim Jul 2012 #80
Fire Walk With Me Jul 2012 #97
kctim Jul 2012 #104
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #105
randome Jul 2012 #106
Hissyspit Jul 2012 #121
kctim Jul 2012 #127
Hissyspit Jul 2012 #130
LineLineLineLineLineLineLineLineReply .
kctim Jul 2012 #131
Hissyspit Jul 2012 #139
Zorra Jul 2012 #123
kctim Jul 2012 #128
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #129
kctim Jul 2012 #132
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #135
Summer Hathaway Jul 2012 #136
Hissyspit Jul 2012 #138
randome Jul 2012 #140
Hissyspit Jul 2012 #141
Summer Hathaway Jul 2012 #148
Hissyspit Jul 2012 #164
Summer Hathaway Jul 2012 #165
woo me with science Jul 2012 #147
warrprayer Jul 2012 #92
Hissyspit Jul 2012 #119
Summer Hathaway Jul 2012 #137
warrprayer Jul 2012 #158
jtuck004 Jul 2012 #166
geek tragedy Jul 2012 #124
4th law of robotics Jul 2012 #143
Summer Hathaway Jul 2012 #152
JDPriestly Jul 2012 #154
zappaman Jul 2012 #155
randome Jul 2012 #157
Robb Jul 2012 #159
JDPriestly Jul 2012 #168
JDPriestly Jul 2012 #167
Inkfreak Jul 2012 #156
The Midway Rebel Jul 2012 #161

Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 05:53 PM

1. they haven't lost me, though I oppose that message

Judging by the discussion of the image on the group's facebook page, most members and fans oppose it as well.

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Response to fishwax (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:14 PM

9. 105 Likes !!!

I got into it with my son's friend on a FB discussion and this sort of talk amongst the youngsters is troubling. This is a person who lives in N.C., registered to vote and didn't vote in their special election which went 60/40 against LGBT right to marry. He is a high profile person and many follow his words, then I stepped in to point out what happened in 2010 and in his own back yard, which BTW he didn't vote in and now is SORRY.

No, no, no - this is not the message to send to the low info voters - like my son's friends, who think they are up on politics, but don't yet understand the price we all pay when people don't vote.

Latest poll in Colorado
Obama - 45
Serial liar - 44

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Response to otohara (Reply #9)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 07:36 PM

120. It was a Democratic governor who ordered the cops to tear down the Occupy Denver camp.

I don't agree with the sentiment at all either, but I can see where it comes from.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #120)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:54 PM

134. I don't agree with the sentiment either

 

but Democrats have not been kind to the occupy movement.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:00 PM

2. On a related note...

The Occupy Wall Street Facebook profile completely lost me a few weeks ago when they posted an anti-vaccination image and then a bunch 9/11 inside job crap within the span of a few days. Very disappointing.

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Response to LibAsHell (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:43 PM

28. And this is why "the movement" can't be successful. Conspiracy shit is a turn off. (nt)

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #28)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:03 AM

58. Yeah, all the Rove conspiracy and Bush's Iraq War Group conspiracy and Valerie Plame conspiracy

stuff was a huge turn off.

All turned out to be true, but what a turn off!

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #58)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:13 AM

60. Were those conspiracy theories? Who knew? I thought the subject was 911?

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #60)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:14 AM

61. Yes, the mainstream considered them conspiracy theories.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #61)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:48 AM

63. If you say so. I see I'm talking to a "true believer" so I'll just be over here--------->>>>>>>,

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #63)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:29 AM

73. Those were without a doubt conspiracies at one time or another whether you recognize that or not.

Just as it was a conspiracy that Iraq didn't actually have WMD until that turned out to be undeniable. The Bush administration was loaded with conspiracies. Only some of them are now recognized truths while others will be in due time, perhaps years, perhaps decades, but the truth will out.

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Response to EOTE (Reply #73)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:41 PM

84. TRUTH!

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:01 PM

3. And if they think they are screwed now, rmoney will be screwing them in ways they can not imagine if

elected President because they didn't vote for President Obama.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:03 PM

4. It will get worse.

Some of those who simply can't accept that OWS has failed will become so depressed, they may become next year's Conservatives.

Starting to sound like Tea Baggers now. That probably should not surprise us since the same mindset gave birth to both groups.

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Response to randome (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:50 PM

30. Have you been able to figure out the purpose of this "movement"? The fact that they hate....

everyone and everything aside, what is their message? And what is the point? I'm beginning to think this is just another Koch style distraction, much like the Tea Party, and that's just sad.

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #30)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:13 PM

39. Sure. The purpose was to get people talking about the purpose.

Ah, who am I kidding? Ridicule isn't called for here. Sure, they had a purpose at the start. They DID get us all talking about the 1% versus the 99%. They helped some people in need.

I congratulate them on that.

But that's all they did.

If they wanted to start a revolution, they failed. And now, still without a leader, they clash with cops for the rights to chalk up the sidewalks. Admittedly, the police have come down too hard on them. That's undeniable.

But they can put the blame anywhere they want, the Reality is this: their message is no longer the 1% versus the 99%. Whether the cops and corporatocray succeeded or OWS failed is irrelevant. The message is no longer being pushed forward.

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Response to randome (Reply #39)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 11:53 PM

55. "still without a leader". This is where we vehemently disagree. I believe there is indeed.....

"a leader", but for obvious reasons, the forces behind the organization may not want us to know. I do, however, agree that they were useful at changing the conversation. But you have to ask yourself, why any movement would want to neuter itself politically? And why they've spent so much time attacking Democrats?

For all the noise, at the end of the day, the "movement" cost the citizenry an untold amount of resources....and for what?

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Response to Tarheel_Dem (Reply #55)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 01:21 AM

153. I'll tell ya, if I were a NYC cop with kids, I'd have spent a lot of time plussing up the rugrats'

college funds with all that overtime!

I don't think OWS used the initial wash of goodwill that was felt for them, or the opportunities that presented themselves, very well at all. They could have been a real mainstream movement, but the agita and chaos -- and the lack of any real coherent vision and roadmap for the future--has sort of tamped down the enthusiasm. I would have thought, with the good weather, they'd be in full swing again, but it doesn't look like it's happening. It's like a moment that was here and is now a fresh memory. Not quite gone, but not as powerful as the moment.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:04 PM

5. Someone needs to instruct them that

you cannot build a wall and expect it to be a bridge to others.

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Response to turtlerescue1 (Reply #5)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:26 PM

11. There Are Many Comments Against This

and still it exists, on the other hand, maybe that's because 105 of the low info Occupy Denver followers have "liked" the message.

It's not even original - the so called clever artist who designed this - stole the art/message from the Viacom Corporation.

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Response to otohara (Reply #11)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:02 PM

23. WHY don't they think they need the MASSES to force change?

Maybe we did learn something in the sixties, NOT until a vast number stood and marched with us did we stand a snowball's chance to change, alter or reform anything.

You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:06 PM

6. This is the main reason OWS is a failure.

 

The refusal to become political. Huge opportunity wasted. They didn't want to be "co-opted" by the Democratic party. They should have taken the fucking party over like the teabaggers took the Republican party.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #6)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:10 PM

8. Bullshit. Not wanting to be co-opted was not a plan. It was a rationalization.

Because no one wanted to step up and be a leader, that meme was born. But that's all it ever was.

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Response to randome (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:21 PM

10. Whatever it was, it was dumb.

 

There should have been massive registration drives, petitions to get candidates on ballots and other organizing activities going on at all the Occupy sites. There was a point when the public was on their side, when regular working people were out there. That's when the iron should have been struck. Now it's just the fringe people again and no one gives a shit. Opportunity wasted.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:45 PM

15. All excellent points.

What a wasted opportunity...

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:43 PM

27. I think you two are BOTH right. nt

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Response to randome (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:50 PM

29. Not really.

It finds its roots in a number of precedents, including Gene Sharp's "The Dynamics of Nonviolent Action."

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #29)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:14 PM

41. And how many 'occupiers' do you think actually read that?

Was there a class?

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Response to randome (Reply #41)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 11:54 PM

56. Yes, actually, there have been classes.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #6)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:20 PM

77. The teabaggers are owned outright by the Koch brothers. Occupy will not be bought.

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #77)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:39 PM

144. Yeah because they aren't worth anything

 

they don't contribute votes so they are irrelevant.

A political dead-end.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #144)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 12:41 AM

149. Occupy is a social movement. (((facepalm)))

 

You can pay attention to my posts on DU regarding its clear victories

or not

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #149)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 11:47 AM

162. No, it was a political movement

 

they decided they were a social movement after they lost all relevancy and it got kinda embarrassing.

For that matter as a social movement they've failed as well as they started out with a high level of support that has been steadily dropping.

A social movement that turns society against it is pretty unsuccessful.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/16/1037042/-Support-for-Occupy-Wall-Street-drops-in-nbsp-new-nbsp-poll

/less support than the tea-party? Yikes.

//they have no plan that could possibly succeed, they are steadily losing support, and what political clout they may have had has been entirely squandered. Long story short: they are irrelevant.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #6)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 02:12 PM

99. That is why a local occupier got arrested

for get ready for this... REGISTERING VOTERS at the Civic Center...

He even went to see the Judge over that one...

And why local occupiers like ran for office

Or they were PART of the DEMOCRATIC PARTY delegation.

They are not the Tea Party of the D's but do these things fit your definition of political man?

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:08 PM

7. The GOP's useful idiots.

The protestations that "all of OWS isn't like this" rings like Teahadists "disavowing" racist knuckledraggers, frankly.

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Response to Robb (Reply #7)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:00 PM

35. That's the vibe I was given. n/t

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:26 PM

12. I understand the frustration expressed.

However, I'm under the opinion that both voting and creating a movement is needed. I'm not sure either alone will do the trick. There are always Democrats that vote with the Republicans on crucial issues which makes our tasks harder.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:28 PM

13. I think this is actually a pretty old logo

 

I think it got started about 20 years ago as a cynical response to MTV's 'Rock the Vote' campaign. AFAIK, MTV abandoned the slogan a long time ago.

I remember people passing around a catalog selling stickers/shirts with this logo at a Rage Against the Machine concert back in the mid-90s.

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Response to RZM (Reply #13)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:44 PM

14. You're Right -

Occupy Denver thinks some clever supporter designed it.

This is what they say about the gif:
Concept by a dedicated Denver #Occupier. An epic sentiment #ftw --

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:59 PM

16. Posted by an agent provacateur, surely...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #16)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:30 PM

24. You cracked me up again, Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #16)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:18 AM

70. why do you diss the movement sid? are you an agent provacateur? occupy

occupy.













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Response to dionysus (Reply #70)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:52 PM

133. Sid is not a liberal.

 

That's why.

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #142)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 11:27 PM

146. That was then, this is now.

 

You've put a lot of work into researching my posts. I guess I should be flattered. And no, you're not more liberal than I am.

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #146)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 12:50 AM

151. Yeah. OK...



Sid

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 07:03 PM

17. Disappointing.

And I say this as a participant in Occupy Denver.

There are some people in the movement that can listen to reason though.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 07:11 PM

18. Occupy the Vote!

Occupy the Rose Parade: Occupiers' signs at post-parade rally at Pasadena City Hall:




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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #18)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:53 PM

31. Thank you, I've been reading this thread with amusement. The anti-Social Justice Movement

comments are always predictable. Now I just watch them rather than bother attempting to enlighten them. While some spend their time trying to crush a Social Justice movement, millions across the world are out there getting things done.

I remember back during the Bush years when I used to think I could educate rightwingers with facts, but then I learned, they were willfully ignorant, they wanted to believe what they believed. So I stopped wasting time on them.

From the beginning of this movement, there has been a huge fear of its success and its ongoing growth across the world, only getting bigger as more corruption is uncovered. I wasted a lot of time attempting to enlighten those who I gave the benefit of the doubt to, that maybe they didn't understand it. But when you see the same people all the time, attempting to discredit a movement that consists of millions of people worldwide, it's time to simply sit back and smile when they appear, predictably, each time someone searches through the literally thousands of actions taking place around this country and the world to try to find something negative. It's funny to me now. And futile on their part.

Don't expect any positive reaction to your post, but for those reading, it was worth your while to post it.

This reminds me of the Right Wing Fundy source used here to attack OWS for beating up Catholic girls or some such horrific claim. It didn't matter how many people pointed out how incorrect the Religious Fundy, well-known btw, was, for some they had to beleeeeeeeeve it, because they wanted to.

What was even funnier about that was the lack of outrage over using a totally discredited right wing source, by some of the same people who claim to be outraged when someone inadvertently uses a questionable source. People notice these things and keep them in mind from a credibility standpoint.

Go OCCUPY!!

They changed and continue to change the dialogue, and maybe even in some instances in parts of the world so far, the course this world was on.

Anyone who thinks OWS is not political, see France, Tunisia, Egypt and Spain, Greece and soon to be Italy, but especially worth watching right now is Spain. GO INDIGNADOS! The inspiration for Occupy.

However I do love these threads because they are so revealing. And I love the declarations of 'failure' which have been around from Sept 17th of last year. Wishful thinking, but don't you wonder why anyone on the Left would have that attitude? The Right always hates Social Justice movements, we expect that.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #31)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:05 PM

37. Well, last year they inspired my sig line.

I'll give them that.

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Response to randome (Reply #37)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:14 PM

40. Why am I not surprised?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #31)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 01:00 AM

65. The anti-Social Justice Movement. That's so accurate.

It's a keeper.

Thanks!

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #31)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 01:09 PM

86. "The System is good"

"The System provides"
"All hail The System!"

Pathetic.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #18)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 01:11 PM

88. ...

Occupy, and vote for Democrats.
Posted by Zorra in GLBT
Sat Dec 10th 2011, 04:50 PM
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Zorra/214

Do everything possible to bring about positive constructive change.

It is clear that we have much larger numbers of allies among Democratic legislators, and few or none among republicans.

It is clear that the system is compromised, and that enormous pressure must be put on the system to bring about the tension that leads to positive constructive change, particularly toward equality.

I firmly believe that, if we put a Democratic majority in both Houses 2012, and Obama back in the WH, that we will attain marriage and employment equality under federal law at sometime within the next 2-4 years.

The RW agenda must be continually and relentlessly exposed and defeated on every front by every non-violent means available.

With regard to the protection afforded us by the judicial system:

Whoever is President from 2013 to 2017 will be appointing one or more SCOTUS justices. Do we want Obama to appoint these justices, or a Mormon, like Mitt Romney, a phony RW fundamentalist freak like Newt Gingrich, or crazy lady Michelle Bachmann, appointing these justices?

This should be a no brainer for our community, (excepting maybe Log Cabin Republicans, speaking of no brainers).

Here is a quote attributed to Plato:

“One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors."

Here is a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., "Letter From A Birmingham Jail":

"You may well ask: "Why direct action? Why sit ins, marches and so forth? Isn't negotiation a better path?" You are quite right in calling for negotiation. Indeed, this is the very purpose of direct action. Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation..."

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/L...

Equality and Solidarity

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #18)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 01:14 PM

90. That's more like it!

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 07:18 PM

19. It's like Naderologically Radicalicious, Brah

Besides, the parties are both the same, brah! Like, I heard it from Alex Jones, brah.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #19)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:54 PM

32. !!!!





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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 07:24 PM

20. This has been the huge flaw. If you want to change things, you have to get your people in positions

to change things. I have never understood this position. It is ridiculous and self-indulgent.

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Response to Pirate Smile (Reply #20)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:30 AM

74. Why not take the advice of a genius:

 

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
—Buckminster Fuller

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Response to Pirate Smile (Reply #20)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 01:02 PM

85. Why local occupiers RAN for office here

and registered voters.

Big mistake, thinking that Occupy is just one mass of people

For crying out loud, RAY LUTZ was ARRESTED for yes... you guessed it... REGISTERING VOTERS.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 08:23 PM

21. That graphic is a massive failure.

Giving up your vote is the very same thing as allowing someone to take it from you. Never give up!

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 08:29 PM

22. i bet they can get the koch brothers and the us chamber of commerce to print as many as they need

for free.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:33 PM

25. Occupy Colorado is a much better organization.

Seems like it is run by adults anyway, or at least people who live on this planet.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:39 PM

26. Probably some Young College Republican, disguised as one of those black hoodie types, came up with

that....either that, or one of those Paulites.

It's suggestive of a serious lack of maturity.

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Response to MADem (Reply #26)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:54 PM

33. You are probably correct. Because no one I know from any of the occupations across the country

would approve of that message. Quite the opposite in fact.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #33)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 11:09 PM

50. I keep saying that those black hoodie guys are no friends to Occupy; usually I get my ass handed to

myself for my trouble and told that I'm a fogie who doesn't "understand"...!


I just ask the old "Cui bono?" question....and the answer here, as it has been when those shitheads burn flags after stealing them, without any real purposeful protest behind it, destroy hundred year old architectural models, vandalize, spray-paint, confront cops in an unnecessarily aggressive manner, throw rocks, cause shit, etc., is NOT Occupy.

The ones who benefit are the people who don't like Occupy, and those punky little shits are always in the thick of the troublemaking--then they run off like little chickenshits and let the Kumbayah crowd feel the truncheon and mace.

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Response to MADem (Reply #50)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:06 AM

59. Well, I agree with you, and have from the beginning. Their actions are counter to what

Occupy is all about. And you are correct about them runing away after the create trouble. I have never seen one of them be arrested, and I watched pretty closely hoping for that so that the Attorneys could get some more info on them. But somehow they always manage to get away.

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Response to MADem (Reply #26)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 11:00 PM

49. BINGO!!

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Response to MADem (Reply #26)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:40 PM

145. No matter what it's always infiltrators

 

I swear the OWS is like 90% false-flag operators.

Either the cops or the anarchists or the republicans.

It's hard to find any actual supporters of the movement.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #145)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 12:45 AM

150. You may have a point.

I wouldn't say 90 percent, but it does seem that there are groups of troublemakers that are disavowed regularly when anything goes amiss.

I think there were a lot of hangers-on who really couldn't be said to be too interested in the philosophy of the effort, as well, but they are people surviving on the margins who enjoyed the relative safety of the urban encampments and the free food/socks, etc. that were donated. Who could blame them?

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Response to MADem (Reply #150)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 11:44 AM

160. So what percentage of protesters would you say are astro-turf?

 

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #160)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 11:56 AM

163. I couldn't even begin to speculate. I don't think you'd need a LOT to

change the game, in any event. Imagine twenty people in a cargo elevator--one person farts and life is miserable for all.

I am the first to admit I have no expertise in crowd manipulation!

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:57 PM

34. Finally, after all these many years, an understated OP

 

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:02 PM

36. Meh...whatever. The Occupiers never had me. n/t

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:12 PM

38. One shouldn't judge a whole movement based on the opinions of some.

Occupy is both a political and anti-political movement, which is good, because if it was wholly political it would lose its vision, but if it was entirely anti-political it wouldn't have much sway. It's right there in the middle.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:19 PM

42. Ideological diversity! Oh noez!

I don't agree with the notion expressed, but I know people who do whose opinions I respect and value. It's okay for people to disagree as long as they do so thoughtfully and with good intentions.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #42)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:36 PM

43. People whose opinions you respect advocate not voting?

What other grand illuminations arise from these giants of political thought?

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Response to Robb (Reply #43)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:40 PM

45. How many books do you want to read?

Or are you just engaging in lame snark?

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #45)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:43 PM

46. I read one time you don't have to put stamps on letters.

Too subtle?

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Response to Robb (Reply #46)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 11:15 PM

52. Vietnam. Just write FREE in the corner!

Who wanted to be there, though?

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:38 PM

44. Somebody else already beat me to it,

but this sounds like the doing of some RW infiltrators in order to depress Democratic turnout, especially considering Republicans nationwide enacting voter ID laws. I'm sure that most Occupiers are smart enough to know that you have to vote in order to try getting your interests represented.

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Response to Jamaal510 (Reply #44)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 11:12 PM

51. Yes, I'm sure it was RW infiltrators.

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Response to Jamaal510 (Reply #44)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 11:24 PM

54. Those infiltrators aren't new, though. They've been pulling this shit from the git-go.

The reason that the movement is shrinking is because of those black hoodie, troublemaking assholes. What old hippies want to go down to the Occupy with the grandkids if the vibe is going to be bricks, barricades and pepper spray?

The vibe needs to be positive, upbeat, determined, productive, along the lines of "We can change the world" not "Fuck the police."

I think Occupy needs leadership at the national level. Maybe a Board of Directors paradigm, with leaders from all walks of life and persuasions, but the way it works right now...well, it isn't working.

The opportunity is being squandered, to put it bluntly. If they don't get their shit together soon, they'll be relegated to the fringe--well meaning, like Code Pink, but "way out there" and frankly, mocked.

It's a shame. The potential is there. Won't be there forever, though.

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Response to MADem (Reply #54)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:25 AM

69. Well said..

"We can change the world" instead of "Fuck the Police"

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #69)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 03:40 PM

108. I came up with Martin. I still believe that shit! nt

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Response to MADem (Reply #54)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 01:40 PM

94. I will have to ask, since I have been covering them

from the beginning? The black block guys and gals, or the police violence? I can tell you, in San Diego, the POLICE VIOLENCE.

Here is one for you to ponder. The cops confiscated an AMERICAN FLAG from a vet, since it violated City Muni Code going to 1979, about how tall and how wide a pole could be at a demonstration. It was a small flag pole.

Guess what was at the Comic Con this week which VIOLATED that same muni code by spades and was never confiscated? Hell, the cops only enforced, half heartily, the noise pollution codes.

Yup, VERY TALL signs, and crosses. I will even post one of those photos and links to the rest.



Links to where the rest of the photos are.

http://nadinbrzezinski.posterous.com/and-the-con-got-proselytized-at

http://nadinbrzezinski.posterous.com/con-got-proselytized-part-two

For the damn record, I have no issue with the Muni Code, as long as it gets enforced equally, which it is not. This has been one of the chief complaints from insert occupation here.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #94)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 03:38 PM

107. I really don't want to get into a Smothers Brothers skit. I don't care who "started it."

All I know is what I see. A bunch of happy people not being jerks....and then along come the black block fuckers.

Guys in hoodies, vandalizing, spray painting, busting up hundred year old models in city offices, burning flags, wrecking grocery stores, breaking windows....that puts the po po on the defensive, and you're off to the races.

In Boston, they ratted those hoodie asshole guys out to the cops after they spray painted a bunch of buildings. They also fingered the drug dealers/hard drug users/people engaging in prostitution/situations where children appeared endangered and got the cops to arrest them. The place wasn't crime free but it was safer than many other locations. It was also very clean because hygiene discipline was strictly enforced.

Aside from the fact that they didn't get to keep their kitchen sink, the Occupy people got along real well with the cops. The cops and the mayor were not jerky.

They did have de facto leadership at that location, though and they did not regard the police as "the enemy" or every interaction with them as a confrontation.

They'd do well to elect leaders at Occupy sites, hire lawyers (or get lawyers to volunteer) and "professional up" their game. They need to know the law better than the cops, not whine because they aren't getting away with breaking it or carp because it is perceived to be applied unfairly.

This free-flow stuff isn't working. This movement should be huge this year, bursting at the seams, packing 'em in like the Vietnam War demos...but instead, it's just rag tag groups with no real "goose." The only time I have seen really big demos is when a UNION (with leaders, organization, permits, signs, understanding of the law, people on the ground to get stuff moving) gets involved. Then you have something that works. Otherwise, it's just urban camping and a lot of talk and little action save confrontation. The foreclosure stuff is sometimes OK, but that's not a movement. That's just a couple of people crashing in the way of the sherriff, who welcomes the excuse to go away/come back another day.


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Response to MADem (Reply #107)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 03:57 PM

109. Well the problem is that the vibe

was not created by the Black Block... but San Diego PD, who even threatened a 13 year old kid with arrest if she put a sign down, using Muni Code on Encroachment.

The code was abused by the cops, to create that very threatening environment. I am just letting you know the facts of this very local occupation.

As far as the black block locally, I even joked with them last week that they were early for Comic-Con.

And no, the Occupiers did not get in any cop's face either... but the orders, I am betting, came from way to the top and the city mayor.

You are talking from what you have seen, on the net. I am talking of in very much in person, while covering them.

And again, we had one rally over TTP organized by the Central Labor council with 300 people or so. We had a march the SAME week with 300 people or so, six days later.

Granted, if you tried to tune in to oh NBC... nope, you will have to go read this in alternate small indie press.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #109)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 04:05 PM

110. Well, fine, those are your anecdotes. They aren't what went on in Beantown or Oakland.

I would wager that if the black block shits were given the wrong location for the riot demonstrations, that the actual ones would go off peacefully.

If you don't want to take that view, I don't insist you do. We simply differ.

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Response to MADem (Reply #110)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 04:08 PM

111. I am willing to bet some of the black block in Oakland

were actually undercover cops, it is also a tactic.

And no, they are NOT anecdotes, we watched this happen LIVE. You may want to read the news stories on this in local indie press.

You are having a problem with this, I have no idea why?

I guess the fact that there was planning at the national level by authorities is also an anecdote.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #111)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 04:13 PM

115. I am not having a "problem." I told you I had no interest into playing a speculative game about who

is worse, who started what, etc...and you went ahead and are doing it anyway.

indeed.

I said We Differ. There is nothing wrong with that.

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Response to MADem (Reply #115)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 04:18 PM

117. And I told you some real facts from the ground

which contradict your preconceptions.

I am sorry I cannot help you even with facts. Some of us have actually GONE THERE and reported on the story, sorry if that hurts.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #117)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 07:58 PM

122. No, they don't contradict anything, they are simply your personal experience. Have a nice day. nt

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #117)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:26 PM

125. Thanks to great reporting by journalists like yourself

we know what is going on.
keep up the great journalistic work!
I smell a Pulitzer!!!

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:43 PM

47. Well in that the U.S. is now owned by 17 richer fucks, there may be something to be said for fucking

the vote, but not here.

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #47)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 11:17 PM

53. Absolutely. I'm sure there is an anarchist or socialist site somewhere that would welcome them.

But this is Democratic Underground.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 10:57 PM

48. Two issues with OWS that formed my opinion -

#1 Atlanta Occupy Turns Away John Lewis



#2 TDS: Occupy Wall Street Divided

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-november-16-2011/occupy-wall-street-divided

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #48)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:02 AM

57. And there it is! That was my tipping point as well.

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Response to AtomicKitten (Reply #48)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:18 AM

62. Too bad you got that wrong, re Lewis. He understood and was not upset at all, but then he would.

A great man and someone who has supported Occupy from the beginning. But the morons on the right of course, as if they cared anything for a Civil Rights hero like Lewis, tried to use it against Ocuppy, which they naturally hate. He did not give them that satisfaction and most graciously stated that he was not 'rejected' by OWS but could not wait as he had another event to go to.

But it's interesting that you would repeat this. As I said already, I love these threads as they reveal so much that people need to know.

So maybe you should not use a Civil Rights hero to try to discredit a Social Justice Movement which he supports. He didn't seem to want people to do that. He sure knows all about such tactics though, as no Movement was more attacked than the one he was a part of.

Occupy is going to be around for years, so people may as well get used to it..

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #62)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 04:58 AM

68. Uh huh.

"But it's interesting that you would repeat this."


That's odd. I posted a succinctly labeled video without comment. Could it be the truth is obvious, that Mr. Lewis was disrespected, and you just aren't having it? No worries, that's a rhetorical question.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:51 AM

64. Allow me to very clear when I say that the Occupy movement is one of the most useless things I've

ever had the displeasure of witnessing. They are arktards who will march and sing patriotic tunes as opposed to... Voting, volunteering, and electing candidates.

The problem with these people is they are LAZY. They don't want to work. They'd rather protest, talk about their feelings, and enjoy being around like minded people over actually changing the electorate, the country, and our government.

As my father would say, useless as tits on a boarhog.

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Response to cecilfirefox (Reply #64)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:36 AM

75. Last week Occupy Fights Foreclosures got CA Gov Jerry Brown to sign a Homeowner's Bill of Rights

 

and requested an immediate moratorium on foreclosures in California. This is now a model for the rest of the states in the country.

Check out OFF saving a widow's home from being illegally foreclosed upon. She has a daughter with Plasmosis Cerebral Palsy but BofA and the property flipper tried over and over to throw them on the street...and in fact, she and her family and property WERE on the street when OFF showed up to help:

http://occupyobservations.blogspot.com/2012/05/dirma-beats-foreclosure.html

But thank you for your support

I KNOW you'll be interested in learning even more about what we've accomplished for the benefit of all:

http://whatthefuckhasoccupydone.com/

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Response to cecilfirefox (Reply #64)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 01:52 PM

95. Well locally an Occupoer

got arrested for registering voters.

Half the delegation inside the Democratic Party convention was from OSD and allied occupations.

They got the NRC to pay attention to San Onofre...

They have been working on social justice issues, including minor things like white slavery, you even know what that is?

They have run for office, and worked at campaigns.

Is that making your head reel already?

Oh wait, I guess you would agree with the SD County Sheriff who repeated the media mantra that they are all homeless and drug addicts... right?

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 01:01 AM

66. Um, show me where this is an official position of Occupy Denver.

A graphic on FB...really?

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 01:37 AM

67. Lame. I like Occupy but that's dumb.

Whoever posted that graphic might be an idiot. If it is still on facebook hopefully they will take it down. Everybody makes mistakes.

Or they should just take vote to take it down. Or use the Weiner Defense. Say your account was hacked. (Named for Congressman Anthony Weiner, for those not familiar with the Weiner Defense, look it up you may need it some day.)

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:37 AM

71. The Occupy movement is dead

The never had a simple coherent message, they never had a decent spokesperson and now this crap. I hope the Democrats are smart enough to stay away from this.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #71)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:22 PM

78. Here is a nice simple message from Occupy: Fuck the banks who are stealing the country.

 

http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/adbusters-blog/overcoming-fear.html

Politicians are doing NOTHING to stop the theft, or to retrieve the TRILLIONS of dollars handed over. Someone has to do something.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #78)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 02:30 PM

100. It's not going to be done

because of some people occupying a park, leaving behind a disgusting mess and pissing off everyone who needs to go through the area to go to work or home. The winning message is income and tax code inequality but it's like the movement has ADD - there is simply no focus.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #100)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 02:32 PM

102. Please, outside of Madrid (Spain), point to me ONE

physical occupation RIGHT NOW?

You are well behind the times, by about six months.

Know though the Homeowner's Bill of Rights in California, the Governor just signed...guess who he credited? Yup, them horrible occupiers.

So tell me what exactly have YOU done lately?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #102)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 04:09 PM

112. I never said their message was horrible

In fact, it's the best thing about them. I called them ineffective which they are. Good for California but a deep blue state like that would have gotten that bill of rights regardless.

What have I done? Other than giving money, being part of voter registration drives 4 times this year already and signed up for phone banking - not a thing.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #112)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 04:10 PM

113. Well here is the shocking thing

an Occupier went to see the judge over, ready for this? REGISTERING VOTERS

Others have occupied the PARTY...

A few have run for office.

ANd locally they have been essential in getting the NRC to pay attention to San Onofre.

You, on the other hand, are repeating MSM memes.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #100)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 04:41 PM

118. Explain it away to yourself, while we're busy doing things. Cheers!

 

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #71)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:32 PM

81. Yup, it is so dead that they were out protesting

in the streets last week. over the TTP, in NUMBERS.

By the way, what angers the Democrats, we know, is that OWS never was and never will be, the D's Tea Party.

It is a social justice movement, and the MSM told you they had no coherent message, but tell me... is talking about money out of politics and fixing the foreclosure crisis NOT coherent for you?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #81)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 01:12 PM

89. Yeah, and telling people not to vote will sure get them the results they want

by gosh, golly goldurnit!

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Response to Arkana (Reply #89)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 01:19 PM

93. You are making a classic mistake

you are conflating one Occupy, and there is a chance this didn't even go through any GA, with the whole movement.

It is a major mistake. There are major differences from city to city. Hell, here in San Diego we have MANY occupies, as many as cities in the County. We have even had Occupiers arrested for registering voters... no I am not shitting you there.

Please do not make that mistake

Here, since they happen to be my beat, they had a Fuck the police march... some of our local occupiers, which was NEVER, EVER approved by the GA.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #81)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 02:32 PM

101. Feel free to get pissed at me

It'll do the same amount of good the occupy movement is doing.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #101)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 02:39 PM

103. You have an opinion

I am stating a fact.

There were three hundred people outside the Bay Front Hotel the Monday before last raising an alarm over TTP. This was a Labor\Occupy action.

Three hundred more marched though down town San Diego, to the Bayfront Hotel on a Saturday morning, the same week, over the TTP. That is not a dead movement

They have also made the NRC pay attention to San Onofre, after getting every North County City Council to damn well pay attention.

They were thanked by Kamela Harris over the Homeowners Bill of Rights, as well as the Governor.

They have been thanked by those working on Bank fraud in different states.

That is hardly a dead movement.

You may believe they are, but they are not.

Locally they also faced arrest for registering voters, and they occupied the State Democratic Convention, and one made it to the November Ballot. That again, is not a dead movement. They are my beat, sorry... I happen to cover them REGULARLY, unlike the local big boys, or even national press.

I even posted photos from the very much dead movement here on the old DU... I shot enough to share a few here that were not run by the paper.

What they have done is move to PHASE TWO...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #103)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 04:10 PM

114. Hopefully Phase Two

will be more effective. I'm not holding my breath. And if they're going to suggest people not voting is an answer, then they really are part of the problem.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #114)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 04:16 PM

116. One person posting a post at Facebook

does not a movement make. When you bring me evidence that Occupy Denver endorsed this though the General Assembly, (what is that I can hear now), then I will listen to you, that this is an occupy problem. Having seen Ray Lutz arrested and charged with disorderly conduct and resisting arrest for REGISTERING voters, I have very little patience for this willful ignorance.

That said, They ARE. We have posted some of the things they have done so far. Problem is, YOUR NATIONAL AND LOCAL media are not reporting on this. You will need to rely on INDEPENDENT media. Don't worry, we watched the other day, WE got an exclusive at Comic Con with Labor. Care to tell me what CNN did? Ignored them. Local TV media, turned their backs.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #116)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:28 PM

126. "One person posting a post at Facebook"

Also doesn't make for an accurate article about soldiers on "sooper duper secret missions in Syria", does it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002179652

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:25 AM

72. Occupy is not the democrat's tea party. Occupy supports neither candidates nor parties.

 

OWS NYC have stated this before in more coarse terminology. Many in OWS may vote for various candidates, but many also believe the extant system to be at the top levels, corrupt beyond redemption (barring the end of citizens' united and re-installation of Glass-Steagall).

Be happy there is a powerful organization willing to be watchdog about all of this, to not participate in a system which would seek to corrupt them and their work. Keep the bastards honest, always, or replace them with something better.

For example, see the Chomsky quote on their page:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=337953726279483&set=a.187420004666190.46194.185366764871514&type=1&theater

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #72)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:34 PM

82. Slight correction, depends on where

locally we have had OCCUPY folk RUN for office and occupy the democratic party.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #82)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 01:09 PM

87. I think that is a horrible idea and can end in catastrophic failure.

 

If they remain unbought, good luck on changing things at the top level where everything is. I do not believe the Change we need may be found in anything not truly horizontal. Unless we end up with Dennis Kuciniches at every level, willing to quit instead of allow a corporation to damage their zone.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #87)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 01:16 PM

91. You may think that but they concluded

what social movements have done to be succesful, work both INSIDE and OUTSIDE, as in in PARALLEL of the system.

And so far they have gotten the NRC to pay attention to San Onofre... I do not think that was quite a failure, doncha think?

In the meantime, the most radical of all Occupies, Oakland, cannot get more than fifty people to march for the unemployed, while here we got two marches in one week of 300 people.

I do not call that being a failure.

We have people truly and fully engaged and going into the year mark the core of the group is not smaller, rather it has grown a little. OTOH, Oakland, which had 30-40K in the streets for the port shut down, has been counter protested.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #91)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 02:00 PM

96. By failure I mean potential failure in terms of those running in the existing system

 

for political position no matter their intention. You know what I meant.

I'm glad they are still going strong and I wish them all the best in, well, their other endeavours!

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #96)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 02:06 PM

98. That exists regardless

for a while they went to war internally and it looked like they were plainly done.

They figured what MLK figured out, for example... and they are working from multiple directions.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:11 PM

76. Please remember: Occupy is a social movement, not a political movement.

 

It was birthed in response to problems no one else would address.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:29 PM

79. when I was young and naive I thought the election of Ronald Reagan would hasten the rise of the new

progressive order, Instead it ushered in a relentless decline into the most retrograde and reactionary period in American history - marginalizing the left and pushing the Democratic Party at least on economics and foreign policy way to the right of the pre-
Reagan Republican Party. Nothing good every comes out of the bad guys winning.

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Response to Douglas Carpenter (Reply #79)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:34 PM

83. 30 years of that crap is coming to a close.

The Tea Baggers are the cattle grazing on the lawn of the GOP. Rome has fallen!

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 12:30 PM

80. Luckily, they do not represent 99% of the people

 

Never have.

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Response to kctim (Reply #80)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 02:02 PM

97. By your "1%er" signature, I understand your post.

 

America is about the only place not currently rising up in vast numbers against the corrupt.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #97)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 03:00 PM

104. Only enforces the fact

 

that the vast majority of Americans do not agree with the opinions embraced by OWS. We are not "rising up" because most of us don't fall for the OWS propaganda. We do not live in fear and we do not dwell on what others have.
We are happy with our lives and, despite the wishes of some OWS simpletons, we are going to bust our asses to get President Obama re-elected.

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Response to kctim (Reply #104)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 03:07 PM

105. So you are not concerned about the crisis with the banks

Thanks for that clarification. It's good to know.

You are also not concerned about people getting thrown out of their homes.

Nor are you concerned about money IN POLITICS, like Citizens United... that is a-ok with you.

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Response to kctim (Reply #104)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 03:14 PM

106. Well put.

It's axiomatic. The 'people' are not rising up because the 'people' don't see that things are as dire as OWS makes them out to be.

And yes, Nadin, most of us DO want changes to occur. And no matter how much change actually occurs, there will always be MORE that could be done. We know that. We are not stupid.

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Response to randome (Reply #106)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 07:38 PM

121. Well-put bullshit.

An almost meaningless statement: "the vast majority of Americans do not agree with the opinions embraced by OWS"

Pure Republican-type smoke-screen.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #121)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:36 AM

127. Then you should have no problem

 

explaining why only a VERY VERY samll fraction of Americans show up to these "Occupy" shows.

And only facts please. Not BS excuses of some "media conspiracy" or "people just don't understand, they would support OWS if they were smart enough."

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Response to kctim (Reply #127)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 12:30 PM

130. Why should I "explain" those questions?

They have nothing to do with the content of the posts I was responding to.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #130)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:04 PM

131. .

 

You said my statement: "the vast majority of Americans do not agree with the opinions embraced by OWS"

was "meaningless" and "Pure Republican-type smoke-screen."

My statement would have to be false if either of those two things are true. So what proof do you have that the vast majority of Americans share the opinions of OWS and support them?

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Response to kctim (Reply #131)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:30 PM

139. You said people not showing up for protests = not support ideas.

Logical fallacy.

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Response to kctim (Reply #104)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:19 PM

123. Well, there you have it. One seriously bullshit elitist post.

"We do not live in fear and we do not dwell on what others have.
We are happy with our lives..."

.................................



Perfect. That is the quintessential mindset of those who despise Occupy.

"Its a sin that somehow
Light is changing to shadow
And casting its shroud
Over all we have known
Unaware how the ranks have grown
Driven on by a heart of stone
We could find that we're all alone
In the dream of the proud"


Maybe you don't give a damn about what others have. Well, good for you. You got yours. You're happy with your life. YAY!


Just please, stop pissing all over those of us who really do give a shit about others, particularly those others who are suffering from injustices. Stop pissing all over us for endangering our life and health, and laying out our time and cash, for trying to make a better world.

Pissing on people that are making sincere sacrifices to try to make a better world.

That's some nasty shit right there.


Because you are unquestionably right; Occupy really does care about what others have. In fact, that's what Occupy is all abou/i]. We care about what others have.

The paragraph below is exactly how we care about what others have:

Do people have enough food? Do they have medical care? Do they have shelter? Do the have a clean, livable environment? Do they have protection from oppression? Do they have equal rights? Do they have opportunity? Do they have the possibility of obtaining an education? etc.

What can we do, how can we work together to bring about social and economic injustice and make sure all people have the possibility of having these things?

Declaration of the Occupation of New York City

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!
*These grievances are not all-inclusive.


On the turning away
From the pale and downtrodden
And the words they say
Which we wont understand
Don't accept that whats happening
Is just a case of others suffering
Or you'll find that you're joining in
The turning away

Its a sin that somehow
Light is changing to shadow
And casting its shroud
Over all we have known
Unaware how the ranks have grown
Driven on by a heart of stone
We could find that were all alone
In the dream of the proud

On the wings of the night
As the daytime is stirring
Where the speechless unite
In a silent accord
Using words you will find are strange
And mesmerized as they light the flame
Feel the new wind of change
On the wings of the night

No more turning away
From the weak and the weary
No more turning away
From the coldness inside
Just a world that we all must share
Its not enough just to stand and stare
Is it only a dream that there'll be
No more turning away



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Response to Zorra (Reply #123)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:33 AM

128. Your emotional response does nothing to refute the fact

 

that OWS does not have the support it thinks it has. It does not have the support it needs in order to be taken seriously.

I don't "despise" OWS at all, they just don't represent the views and beliefs of myself or the vast majority of Americans, so we don't support them. Our lack of support for the views, beliefs and opinions of OWS in no way means we do not care about our fellow Americans.

Re: "...trying to make a better world" comment.

This is the problem with all these little groups like OWS, Tea Parties, Greens etc... They wrongly believe it is they, and only they, who "give a shit about others" and that they, and only they, can "make a better world." You condemn everybody who dares not agree with your OPINION and you try to dismiss those differing opinions with emotional rants rather than with facts.
To that I say BS. People will stop "pissing all over" your opinions when you stop pissing all over their intelligence.

"The paragraph below is exactly how we care about what others have:"

YES, the majority of Americans have enough food, medical care, shelter, a clean livable environment, protection from oppression, equal rights, opportunity etc... Those are ALL fact. Changing the definition of those things to match your opinion does not change that.

"What can we do, how can we work together to bring about social and economic injustice and make sure all people have the possibility of having these things?"

Finally, an honest question.
First, we must acknowledge the fact that one group, or one side of the aisle, does not get to define everything and that differing opinions do not equal "hate."
Second, we must acknowledge the fact that the part does not define the whole. Of course there is ALWAYS room for improvement, but the majority of Americans are doing ok for the most part. There is no need or support to drastically change our economy or our government.
Third, and most important, we must acknowledge the fact that representing all people means representing ALL people, not just those who agree with us. We are NOT and NEVER have been a direct democracy.

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Response to kctim (Reply #128)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 11:13 AM

129. Again. once again, you are not concerned about Citizens United?

Thank the media, for telling the vast majority of Americans that they are all druggies and have no message, because buddy... that is on the top of the list. In polling you know YOU are wrong. We know the vast majority of Americans, from ALL political persuasions, ARE concerned about Citizens United.

We know for a fact, again from polling, that the vast majority of Americans IS concerned about foreclosures and the banksters.

Don't piss on me, and tell me it's raining.

YOU, KCTIM do not agree, that we know.



And that is fine... YOU are not the majority, from polling, trust me on this one.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #129)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 02:50 PM

132. I trust facts, not excuses or opinions

 

Thank the media? Would that be the right-wing media progressives fear or the left-wing media conservatives fear? The "media" excuse is nothing but a weak attempt to justify to oneself why others disagree with them.
Fact is, Americans know the OWS message and the dwindling numbers prove Americans do not support their opinions or tactics.

What we know about Citizens United, foreclosures and banks from "polling," is that Americans are concerned about them. That in no way means Americans believe or support the OWS opinions on it or the OWS solutions to it. If it did, they would be in the streets with OWS. They are not.

Like almost everybody else, I am a little leery of CU and I want the issue with ILLEGAL foreclosures to be addressed. That does not mean I believe in some cock-eyed evil corporation take over of the world conspiracy or that I want all debt to be forgiven.
So, from "polling," I AM with the majority.

FWIW: Polls are hardly factual and reading into them, or omitting from them, in order to prove ones point, is pointless.

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Response to kctim (Reply #132)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 03:05 PM

135. I asked a simple question

In a way, you did answer it.

Have a good day

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Response to kctim (Reply #128)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 05:30 PM

136. Excellent responses on this thread, kctim.

I have found that OWSers are becoming increasingly like Fundies. They believe that no one can find salvation without accepting OWS as their lord and savior.

It has quickly become a faith-based movement, in that adherents are expected to embrace whatever they are told without question. If an OWSer does something worthwhile, "He's with us." If an OWSer does something people find abhorrent, "He's NOT with us." There is no proof offered either way. You just have to believe whatever you are being told by those who claim to be in-the-know.

The other problem is the persecution complex. If you say you are indifferent to the Occupy movement, that means you don't care about your fellow citizens, bank fraud, mortgage fraud, etc.! If you say Occupy is irrelevant to you, that means you want them to fail! It always reminds me of people who say that wishing someone Happy Holidays equals the persecution of Christians. Same kind of disconnect and total lack of logic.

That's because their faith is the only true religion. You're either with them or against them - there is no middle ground. There is no acknowledgement that people can go about moving towards positive change unless they kiss the OWS ring.

To say that people who are not OWS adherents don't care about those who are victims of poverty, unemployment, home foreclosures, etc. is no different, IMHO, than saying that people who are non-Christians or atheists are incapable of moral behavior or concern for others.

It's their way or the highway. And amazingly enough, these are the same people who decry lock-stepping - unless it's their step you are supposed to follow without question, in which case it becomes, "Yeah, but this is different."

Sadly, it's not any different at all.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #136)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:27 PM

138. No, they are not excellent responses.

They are as fact-free and generically slanderous as your post, and their ulterior motive is as obvious as the OP.

I have no problem with criticism of OWS and maybe the moment is over, but this thread is full of nothing but transparent, baseless and pretty-well uninformed bashing.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #138)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:31 PM

140. As was the OWS post of 'Fuck the Vote' that started this thread.

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Response to randome (Reply #140)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:36 PM

141. And has has been pointed out NUMEROUS times in this thread

it's one image from one person, who knows who, associated with one FACEBOOK page cherry-picked to bash a whole modern protest movement.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #138)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 11:59 PM

148. Oh, do tell.

What is the slander? Pointing out that those who do not kneel before the Great OWS are considered by them to be blasphemers, damned to the fires of hell for all eternity?

What is the 'ulterior motive'? Pointing out that Occupy has become a Fundie-style religion that brooks no dissent from anyone?

Fact-free? Where are your facts to refute anything I've said?

kctim set out his argument in well-reasoned, thoughtful responses. Your reply, on the other hand, is an emotional diatribe devoid of any facts whatsoever - other than the fact that you are easily pissed-off when someone pisses on your opinion.

Might I reiterate that I am not a member of any Fundie group - ergo, I do not accept what OWS tells me I HAVE TO BELIEVE simply on the basis that they said so.

If you care to have a reasoned discussion about this, I'm in. But if your only response is that my post is slanderous and based on some ulterior motive you can't articulate, it is obvious we have nothing further to discuss.




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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #148)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 12:41 AM

164. Good grief.

You haven't posted any facts at all.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #164)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 12:58 AM

165. Then we're even.

Neither have you.

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Response to kctim (Reply #128)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 11:58 PM

147. What a bunch of Romney-spew.

Over a million American schoolchildren are homeless now. We have the second-highest child poverty rate of all the developed nations; only Romania is worse. Forty percent of our wealth has been looted. People who were comfortably middle class 15 years ago are living in cars on the street. Meanwhile, the corporations are sucking in record profits.

I dare you to run a Presidential campaign on the message that Americans are doing just fine. Talk about disconnection from reality.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 01:19 PM

92. one image

on one branch of Occupy does not define the movement. FAIL

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Response to warrprayer (Reply #92)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 07:31 PM

119. Of course. And the fact that it was a Democrat (Hickenlooper) that sent in the stormtroopers to

break up the Occupy Denver camp might have something to why the image showed up. I don't agree with it at all, but I understand it.

But you are messing up a good bashing post with your logic. Stop it. Anything that can anyway REMOTELY be seen as even sort of possibly casting bad on Barack Obama must be trashed completely through any means!

Dave Kelley of Arvada held up a sign supporting John Hickenlooper's order for the protesters to vacate the park. "Right choice Gov. No one is above the law," it read.

Kelley, a flooring contractor, said he isn't angry at Wall Street and thinks most of the protesters don't understand capitalism.

"If it wasn't for Wall Street, where would we be? ...," he said.

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Response to warrprayer (Reply #92)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 08:34 PM

137. And therein lies a major part of the problem with OWS.

How many 'branches' are there?

Which 'branch' represents the whole, and which doesn't?

Which 'branch' defines the movement?

How are people supposed to differentiate between the 'branch' that is representative of the movement, and the 'branch' which isn't?

The only answer to the above questions I've seen so far equate to: "If the opinions expressed by one 'branch' of OWS are not to your liking, simply find another 'branch' whose opinions you accept."

That kind of defeats the idea of one movement, solidarity, "we're all in this together" - does it not?

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #137)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 10:39 AM

158. Sun Tzu

From Robert Greene “The 48 Laws of Power”.

"Law 48 – Assume Formlessness


Page 419

Judgment


"By taking a shape, by having a visible plan, you open yourself to attack. Instead of taking a form for your enemy to grasp, keep yourself adaptable and on the move. Accept the fact that nothing is certain and no law is fixed. The best way to protect yourself is to be as fluid and formless as water; never bet on stability or lasting order. Everything changes." "


"Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate. "
Sun Tzu

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/s/sun_tzu.html#XEDkP3YdxpaKbS6F.99



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Response to warrprayer (Reply #158)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 01:27 AM

166. "We've shown you people all the tax returns we are going to" n/t

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:24 PM

124. They're morons, in the sense that

they are complete ignoramuses and not very intelligent.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:37 PM

143. Anyone who thinks this is dumb is siding with the corporations

 

Disagreement with the OWS = support for the 1%.

Or so I've been told.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #143)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 01:00 AM

152. And so we've all been told. n/t

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 02:40 AM

154. Colorado's OWS is not the entire OWS movement.

OWS was very badly treated by a lot of Democrats including Homeland Security. It's no wonder they are disillusioned. There is plenty of time for OWS activists to change their minds about voting and the election.

The fact remains that OWS did a wonderful service in bringing to public attention just how bad the 1% is and how horribly corrupt the relationship between our governments at various levels, local, state and federal thanks to the flood of money from Wall Street.

OWS is a part of the political dynamic. Most of them will vote no matter what a few of them say now.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #154)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 04:47 AM

155. "OWS is a part of the political dynamic."

But it's not a political movement...it's a social movement.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #154)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 10:09 AM

157. "...a lot of Democrats including Homeland Security."?

So Homeland Security is part of the Democratic party now?

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Response to randome (Reply #157)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 10:42 AM

159. Obviously he's never been to a Civil Air Patrol meeting.

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Response to Robb (Reply #159)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 07:41 PM

168. Actually, I did go to Civil Air Patrol occasionally when I was in high school.

I had a friend who was very involved in that.

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Response to randome (Reply #157)

Fri Jul 20, 2012, 07:40 PM

167. The head of Homeland Security was appointed by Obama, a Democrat, who is responsible

for that appointment and for what Homeland Security does.

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 10:06 AM

156. Occupy?

No thanks.

n/t

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Response to otohara (Original post)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 11:45 AM

161. Fuck this post.

Misinformative at best.

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