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cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
Thu Jul 12, 2012, 06:08 PM Jul 2012

Forget income tax — keep your eye on Capital Gains

Our national debates about taxation always focus on personal income tax and, sometimes, corporate income tax.

Those are political shiny objects... most people have paid income tax and know what it is.

Where the rubber meets the inequality road, however, is capital gains. That's the rate the mega-rich care about. That is what the Bush tax cuts were about in the first place.

Rich people tend not to show a lot of taxable income. That's what accountants are for. The money coming in is usually capital gains, and taxed much lower than income. That's why Romney pays 14%.

Currently long-term capital gains and qualified dividends are taxed at 15 percent. If the Bush tax-cuts expire the maximum long-term capital gains rate will increase to 20% (18 % on assets held for over 5 years) and dividends will go back to being taxed at ordinary income rates. For the typical idle-rich person that lives on dividend income from their multi-multi-million stock portfolio that means their dividend tax rate will almost triple, from 15% to about 40%. That's why the fat-cats squeal... not the 4.6% increase in the top income tax marginal rate.

(I do not know whether such a jump in taxation of dividends would have undesirable results in the market. It seems to me that it would favor speculative stocks over steady companies. I would probably increase cap-gains a bit more and retain some of the dividend tax discount, but that's a side-ways issue for another day.)

The Administration says the current 0% and 15% rates on long-term capital gains and qualified dividends will be left in place except for married couples with income above $250,000 and unmarried individuals with income above $200,000.

If the Republican Party was capable of negotiation they would give in on income tax in exchange for keeping the low cap gains and dividend tax rates because those are what is of interest to the super rich. (They would sell out the upper-upper middle class for the mega-rich.)

Keep your eye on those non-income taxes because that is where the real battle will be waged.

15 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Forget income tax — keep your eye on Capital Gains (Original Post) cthulu2016 Jul 2012 OP
excellent post tk2kewl Jul 2012 #1
thanks! cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #8
Excellent post. K&R myrna minx Jul 2012 #2
yeah, there is some astroturf group mopinko Jul 2012 #3
capita gains is income, period. mainer Jul 2012 #4
They are, but they were differentiated due to losses from inflation. Sirveri Jul 2012 #12
I expect there will be a lot of wealthy Democrats who will be unhappy too Auggie Jul 2012 #5
Aren't these rates increasing in 2013 as part of the ACA? LonePirate Jul 2012 #6
Good question. Yes, by 3.8% cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #7
Unearned income tax increases become an age issue. Ruby the Liberal Jul 2012 #9
This message was self-deleted by its author WCGreen Jul 2012 #10
STCG are taxed as ordinary income Ruby the Liberal Jul 2012 #11
Are the Capital Gains rates tied into the Bush Era tax cuts? Sirveri Jul 2012 #13
Yes, they are all one package cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #14
Exactly, Sir: Working People Are Taxed At Much Higher Rates Than Coupon-Clipping Rentiers.... The Magistrate Jul 2012 #15

mopinko

(70,078 posts)
3. yeah, there is some astroturf group
Thu Jul 12, 2012, 06:39 PM
Jul 2012

showing commercials on msnbc- protect dividend income. figured that meant something was up.

mainer

(12,022 posts)
4. capita gains is income, period.
Thu Jul 12, 2012, 06:48 PM
Jul 2012

spoken as one who stands to rely on capital gains for my retirement. It should be taxed the same way salary is taxed.

Sirveri

(4,517 posts)
12. They are, but they were differentiated due to losses from inflation.
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 04:52 AM
Jul 2012

Basically the idea is that people weren't getting the amount of money they were actually getting because money was worth less later on.

My response is that we should simply allow an inflation exception (tied to C-CPI-U, the lowest inflating benchmark) and treat it all as income.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
7. Good question. Yes, by 3.8%
Thu Jul 12, 2012, 07:06 PM
Jul 2012

This seems a good run-down, despite the editorialization. (Like "yikes!&quot

But that's not all. Also starting in 2013, all or part of the net investment income, including long-term capital gains and dividends, collected by higher-income folks can get socked with an additional 3.8% "Medicare contribution tax." Therefore, the maximum federal rate on long-term gains for 2013 and beyond will actually be 23.8% (versus the current 15%) and the maximum rate on dividends will be a whopping 43.4% (versus the current 15%). Yikes!

The additional 3.8% Medicare tax will not apply unless your adjusted gross income (AGI) exceeds: (1) $200,000 if you're unmarried, (2) $250,000 if you're a married joint-filer, or (3) $125,000 if you use married filing separate status.

The additional 3.8% Medicare tax will apply to the lesser of your net investment income or the amount of AGI in excess of the applicable threshold. Net investment income includes interest, dividends, royalties, annuities, rents, income from passive business activities, income from trading in financial instruments or commodities, and gains from assets held for investment like stock and other securities. (Gains from assets held for business purposes are not subject to the extra tax.)

For example, a married joint-filing couple with AGI of $265,000 and $60,000 of net investment income would pay the 3.8% tax on $15,000 (the amount of excess AGI). If the same couple has AGI of $350,000, they would pay the 3.8% tax on $60,000 (the entire amount of their net investment income).

http://www.smartmoney.com/taxes/income/what-obamacare-may-mean-for-taxes-1335896160486/

Response to cthulu2016 (Original post)

Ruby the Liberal

(26,219 posts)
11. STCG are taxed as ordinary income
Fri Jul 13, 2012, 01:25 AM
Jul 2012

In order to qualify for LTCG tax benefits, you have to have held the investment for 1 year + 1 day.

Sirveri

(4,517 posts)
13. Are the Capital Gains rates tied into the Bush Era tax cuts?
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 04:54 AM
Jul 2012

If those tax cuts expire, do the rates for certain go up, or is it only the income taxes that trigger the sunset provision? Did they somehow manage to compartmentalize the cuts?

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
14. Yes, they are all one package
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 10:47 AM
Jul 2012

As things stand, all the cuts, income, cap gains and dividend income will expire together.

The Magistrate

(95,244 posts)
15. Exactly, Sir: Working People Are Taxed At Much Higher Rates Than Coupon-Clipping Rentiers....
Sat Jul 14, 2012, 10:50 AM
Jul 2012

They ought not to be.

"Romney loves America like a tick loves a dog."

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