I've got a mission for all you defenders of capitalism........

[socialist_n_TN]

If all of us bad ole "socialists" are scaring you with our rhetoric and solutions, there's an easy solution for you. Just convince the big capitalists that you're shilling for to lay off the class war against us.

After all, you can't radicalize people who are happy with the status quo. Have at it boyz and gurlz! Convince the Kochs to lay off and we'll go back into the dustbin of history.

Oh and good luck.

[socialist_n_TN]

1. No takers?

[Festivito]

2. Can't decipher what you are saying.

Just convince the big capitalists that you're shilling for to lay off the class war against us.

Why would the Koch brothers be interested in whether or not someone is shilling for something? Sorry, I got lost.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

3. Not a very coherent manifesto.

But it looks like he has cohorts.

[GarroHorus]

25. .

[hack89]

4. Why do you think you are scaring anyone? nt

[nebenaube]

39. chatter is chatter...

rich is delicious

[TBF]

44. We know you're not scared -

after all you have the military and the police.

But sometimes they turn ... especially when they realize their masters couldn't give a flying fig about them. That's when you'll get scared.

[cali]

5. I love word salad. you've done some stellar tossing, dear.

[GarroHorus]

26. The OP outdoes the Arctic Kardashian, Palin. n/t

[socialist_n_TN]

6. Goodness, I sure thought I was clear........

I've seen some posts that were "scared" of the rhetoric from the socialist/anti-capitalist contingent here as being too extreme and bemoaning the radicalization of people on the edges of the political spectrum.

So this was a challenge. The fact is if people are satisfied with the status quo, they don't get radicalized. So if you want to defend capitalism and prevent said radicalization, the solution is simple. Convince the Kochs and Romneys to back off on the class war against the working class and nobody gets radicalized and the "extreme" rhetoric dies down. Or out.

[canoeist52]

7. Yep, it's kinda like churches.

Christians say, "But my church isn't like THAT". I say, "Then why don't you speak out against the bad churches"?

Capitalists need to condemn bad capitalists.

[HappyMe]

8. I read your post a couple of times,

and I'm still not all scared. The spelling of boys and girls like that kind of irritated me, so there's that.

[Taverner]

9. +10000

You got that right, compadre!

[MineralMan]

10. I don't think anyone's really scared, to tell you the truth.

Some of us think that there isn't really a plan worth being scared about, but some of us wish you'd come up with a practical plan to disarm those big capitalists and convince the general population that we can do that without destroying too many jobs and things like that. Some of us think that we can leverage the current political system to do just that, over time, but we're a little worried that some of y'all will be working to keep folks from voting for Democrats and get more Republicans into office.

But scared? No, we aren't scared of your rhetoric and what you call solutions. Nope.

[RZM]

11. Boy, this one is a real head-scratcher

Maybe I'm wrong, but here's what I think your post boils down to:

'If you capitalists convince the worst of your lot to take some of the sting out of the system, we'll happily back down.'

That's a pretty odd view for a Marxist. I thought the point was replacing capitalism entirely. But it seems here what you're saying is that if the capitalists reform themselves a little, you'll be happy.

[socialist_n_TN]

29. I never said that I, personally, would be happy with it.......

Or that I, personally would "back down". I, personally, think that at some point, it's going to get to the point where the whole system is either taken down or collapses of it's own contradictions.

HOWEVER, an objective reading of the situation has always shown that less class war by the capitalists leads to less radicalization of the working class. So it would make logical sense that if you want less radicalization, you would fight to keep the Kochs, the Dimons, and the Geitners, etc. marginalized.

It is an easy challenge to make because the apologists for the system won't EVER be able to make the owners back down.

IOW, the march towards neo-feudalism is going to get MUCH worse. And nobody's going to stop it. Not with "reform" anyway.

[Puzzledtraveller]

51. It isn't going to be taken down, or collapse.

There are huge swaths of the population who are satisfied with their bread and circuses. I should know, I'm a SNAP and Medicaid eligibility worker. I have a 1800+ caseload, 33% who are working , have families with children and use the benefits as intended, as a supplement. Some of the other 66% won't accept employment even when we help them find it and see the benefits as a complete replacement of income. They are eligible for housing and often medicaid, when they have children. We are required to ask them if they are registered to vote, the number of "no's" is staggering, but what is worse is the comments that usually follow " I don't vote" "I don't ever want to vote", "I don't care" "why?" "what for?" Some who elect to register have to ask me what party the current president is in.

[socialist_n_TN]

53. You could be correct about it not being taken down........

but it will most assuredly collapse. It's built to collapse. Eventually.

And as to your anecdotal evidence of the passivity of the underclass, I don't doubt it at all. However, events in this story aren't static. Eventually 100% of your clients will be effected by the corporate takeover of government. At that point they will be radicalized, put in a corporate work camp (otherwise known as a privately run prison), or die. And of course, you'll be out of a job yourself.

It's the same with the working class. Right now, most of them can be satisfied that they've got something. Maybe it's not great, but at least it's something. That won't last either. The drive for profit will drive down wages to the point where they won't be able to live on what the bosses will pay. At that point they will be radicalized, put in the work camp, or die. Or all three.

[hifiguy]

12. One thing the apologists for capitalism never seem to remember:

Greed is not, and never will be, self-regulating. That is the distilled essence of what is wrong with "free market" economics.

[DevonRex]

17. Ah, another one who seems unable to resist insulting

people. No wonder socialism hasn't quite taken off here is it?

[hifiguy]

20. That is neither an opinion nor an insult.

It is a fact.

[DevonRex]

21. Apologists is a characterization made by you alone. Nt

[socialist_n_TN]

35. Don't you apologize for the system when you say things like.......

It might be bad, but it's all we've got? Or it's the best we've got?

[DevonRex]

36. LOL. Try your schtick on somebody else. Nt

[TheKentuckian]

64. Switched gears from not being able to make heads or tails to taking on an insult

that is only an insult if one takes on the role of apologist pretty quick there, didn't ya?

When the OP mentioned apologist for capitalism there was no little tug that mad me feel insulted, probably because I'm fairly comfortable that I'm not an apologist for the system.

If feathers are ruffled, it can only be because one knows they are wearing them and put them on willingly at that.

What is for Democrats to be offended about, I'm a Democrat. Unless you are asserting that Democrats are apologist for the system and if that is the case it is a description not an insult. The party is just an apologist but a proponent and a slightly more delusional proponent than the other party who wants the rule of capitalism while ours asserts it wants to re-create a brief exception that existed under conditions that not only cannot be replicated but under conditions that no one intends to replicate if such magic was possible. Further, it is known that the beneficiaries of the period of exception in the exceptional period was, truth be told, also extremely segmented not just to our country but also generally limited to white males even then. By the time minorities and women were starting to be allowed on the bus the ride was about over.
Even if you could effectively re-impose every bit of the New Deal era laws modernized to fit a different world, the conditions still cannot be restored. Global productivity is not going away, low hanging resource fruit isn't on its way back, India and China are not going to de-develop, minorities are not going to go back to sub-human considerations, women are not going to park it barefoot in the kitchen, and there is no global level competitive system to act as a counter-balance to curb worst excesses or even just limit available resources and participants for the system.

[DevonRex]

66. Yes I decided not to decipher the muck but

instead address the propensity of some Socialists here to insult the people they claim to want to engage in debate.

Just thought I'd point out that it normally doesn't work very well. They can take the advice or not.

As I said below, I like socialism just not Socialists who talk condescendingly to us or openly insult us poor uneducated Democrats.

[DevonRex]

13. Water bottle chair fireplace window!!!!!!!

Ah hahahaHA!

[DevonRex]

14. And blanket cat. So THERE! Nt

[kctim]

15. There are not enough of you

for us to be "scared" by your rhetoric and solutions. If anything, your fantasies of some a successful socialist utopia are annoying.

Tell you what. You dwell on the Koch conspiracy BS and keep dreaming how great life would be if only people obeyed you. The rest of us are going to get President Obam re-elected.

[socialist_n_TN]

46. So the Koch conspiracy is BS?.........

The Kochs haven't put MILLIONS of dollars (maybe a billion or more) behind convincing governments, local, state, and national, to institute their John Birch agenda? Ever heard of ALEC?

Naw, that's not a conspiracy. And the ONLY fucking reason we know about it is because of alternative media outlets. The MSM sure wasn't the ones who broke the story.

[kctim]

52. You forgot Bilderberg and Bohemian Grove

Yes, the Kochs spend money to promote their views, so do the UAW, NRA, NEA, Waltons, Michael Moore, Clooney etc...

But there isn't some secret conspiracy to institute some wild-ass opinion of a John Birch agenda. There isn't a conspiracy to make you dependent on Wal-Mart. And there isn't some conspiracy to make us dependent on government like the far-right believes and that you desire.

The fact is, you blame the overwhelming rejection of socialism in this country on "conspiracy" because you can't accept the fact that Americans do not want it.

[socialist_n_TN]

54. If you don't think that ALEC is a conspiracy......

that's fine. Events will show what's going on. Eventually.

[kctim]

57. Will that be before or after

"interpretations of the solutions" FINALLY "hit it right" and you will no longer have to "keep striving for that correct Marxist practical solution" that has ALWAYS failed?

[DevonRex]

16. If you had left out the insult you might have

gotten a more positive response. As it is, take your "shill" BS and discuss it amongst yourselves.

BTW, I actually like socialism. I just don't care much for some socialists I've run across here. Perhaps because they can't discuss ideas without insulting us poor foolish Democrats.

[FSogol]

18. and most sound like they are on summer break from annoying their poli-sci professors at some junior

college.

[DevonRex]

19. Heh. True, having just discovered that there are

other schools of thought, other Econ systems, and other forms of government. Those days were heady, I admit. Then reality hits, working to support a family. Or should I say "shilling" for a corporation with feeding my family as being only an incidental byproduct?

[FSogol]

22. I just assume Political Science professors drink more gin than the rest of us.

To Do List:

1. Overthrow chains of bondage enforced on me by my capitalistic overlords
2. Buy milk and toilet paper.

[socialist_n_TN]

48. Oh well. I guess I could have gone to the Chicago.......

School of Economics and become a Freidmanite. Then at least I would be at home and comfortable with our coming Brave New World and it's corporate overlords.

[NashvilleLefty]

23. *sigh* Socialism and Free Market Capitalism lead to the Same outcome.

Let me break it down for you:

Laissez-faire, Free-Market, or Caveat Emptor Capitalism all lead to Monopolies. This leads to unlimited economic power in the hands of a few. These few can buy and sell elections as they wish. Thus, they can control the government. Bottom line, absolute power is consolidated in the hands or a few.

OTOH, with pure Socialism all economic power already resides in Elected Officials. All it takes is one corrupt official to take advantage and begin funneling that economic power to his/her private interests. Once they have funneled enough power, they can but/sell the elections. Thus, absolute power is consolidated in the hands of a few.

Thus, I support a blended approach with checks and balances.

As far as essential services such as police, firefighters, schoolteachers, and healthcare insurance - I believe these should be Socialized so that everyone has access to them.

For non-essential services, I believe in Caveat Vendor Capitalism that encourages competition and drives innovation. In some cases, this can also benefit the Socialist programs since they have to purchase innovative Capitalist products.

So, I support Socialism in only some circumstances; I support Caveat Vendor Capitalism in some circumstances. I support separation of powers in all circumstances.

So, how do you plan to pigeon-hole me? As a Keynesian? As a Marxist?

Personally, I like the term Pragmatist. But I also like the term Progressive, since I would like to see our Society progress toward something better. Many people refer to me as a dirty hippy Liberal, which I also embrace as a contrast to their regressive policies that ignore history and experience.

So, I submit to you - reject previous labels and attitudes. Karl Marx himself said "I am not a Marxist".

LEARN.

The old philosophies are merely a stepping stone.

[banned from Kos]

24. Excellent post - much appreciated.

[socialist_n_TN]

43. Ah yes. Reject the very philosophy that has been proven.........

correct about the problem time and time again. Just because the interpretations of the solutions haven't hit it right yet, doesn't mean it won't happen and it doesn't mean I won't keep striving for that correct Marxist practical solution.

BTW, it's pretty easy to see that you're mostly a Keynesian. You believe in "regulated" capitalism, with a few "socialist" touches. Unless your "Caveat Vendor" capitalism allows them to sell anything they want until the "Invisible Hand" closes them down. In that case, there are libertarian tendencies in your Keynesianism.

[DonCoquixote]

59. actually he/she sounds more like

The Western European states that made Socialism work until they bought into that austerity crap pushed by Merkel.

[TBF]

45. You may be Nashville, but you ain't lefty

enjoy your stay comrade.

[Skittles]

69. ya, that one is so over the fucking radar

[Tuesday Afternoon]

27. scared? moi?

[patrice]

28. If capitalism believes that competition brings out the best in us, why do they fear Socialism?

Shouldn't capitalists invite the competition, so that they'll become better capitalists? That is, unless they CAN'T compete and become better at whatever businesses, in which case, they'd probably want to kill Socialism before it gets out of the gate, oh wait . . . .

[socialist_n_TN]

30. Yep, that is the truth. Witness the hissy fit they threw.......

just at the mention of a public option in the health care debate. Or you can look at ANY of the attempts at socialist state all throughout history. They were ALL under the gun (literally) from their inception from the capitalist power structure. They can't handle the competition.

[patrice]

32. I like to fuck with them by talking about how co-operatives are a more efficient form of capitalism.

Adam Smith's (The Wealth of Nations) Real Value, labor/work (that without which, according to Smith, there would be NO economic system of ANY kind) in exchange for Real Value/labor/work. That's what a co-operative is, so it's workers who create the economy in its most direct and concrete form.

I couldn't help but notice, when I first got acquainted with our Occupy, how Libertarian eyes lit up when I soap-boxed on "what I hoped to see in the future": workers who OWN their own work. I did find out, though, that Libertarians are considerably MORE confused about how that could happen than Socialists are.

[FarLeftFist]

31. ...As we type this from our Apple MacBook Pro.

I'm for a combination of the 2 and lean more towards a heavily regulated financial sector and corporate sector while retaining capitalism for the masses and a tax code that allows us to keep in place social safety nets for those struggling and the vulnerable among us. I also believe in well regulated environmental policies for corporate abuses and for the well being of our citizens.

[patrice]

33. I like pure Socialism for the necessities of life and capitalism for the non-essentials. nt

[hifiguy]

49. That is the best compromise.

The market is great at coming up with things like PCs, cars, smartphones, 47 kinds of Pepsi and lots of other optional doodads. It is god awful at making sure that people have access to the necessities of life, which should not ever be commodified.

[patrice]

61. And the commodification of those things has resulted in the commodification of our own lives.

and, just for the fun of it . . .

How is my subject-line statement something that a true Conservative could honestly disagree with?

I hope you don't mind; I'm not trying to trip you up or anything, just kind of interested in something that Chomsky said about himself. He said that he is Conservative in regards to some values (and, of course, implied that he is also other things too.)

The commodification of life doesn't seem conservative to me. Commodities are consumable, aren't they? It wastes the talents/aptitudes/value associated with those lives, all stuff that could be NEEDED to respond to other needs, or to create opportunity. It doesn't make economic SENSE.

Just brainstorming, in a mood; saw an Obama logo on a car-sticker this morning with the words "Trickle up Poverty".



Tryin' NOT to be angry or hate, here.

But we should prepare ourselves for the WORST.

[socialist_n_TN]

34. What makes you think that the owners are going to..........

allow ANY of what you're in favor of? ALL of that stuff we once had and now it's gone. Or going. Do you think they're going to allow it back after spending all that money and effort to get rid of it in the first place?

[nebenaube]

40. without some form of socialist-democracy, this country is dead.... n/t

[Puregonzo1188]

37. Instead of responding the capitalist apologist brigade is going to just pretend to be

conveniently perplexed by what you wrote.

Or perhaps they really are confused. It would at least explain their defense of capitalism.

[socialist_n_TN]

38. Yep. It is kind of confusing isn't it?......

Well, not really, but I can pretend too.

I think it's TREMENDOUSLY funny that they get all insulted by being called an apologist for capitalism, while they apologize for capitalism.

[coalition_unwilling]

50. They may be (or just act) 'confused,' but I'll wager they'll still sell

us the rope with which to hang them (with a hat-tip to V.I. Lenin).

[flvegan]

41. Lord above, how stupid. n/t

[socialist_n_TN]

42. So it's stupid to say that the more the capitalists push.........

the working class into neo-feudalism, the more radicalized the working class will become.

OK. Just let it keep going like it's going and we'll see who's right and who's wrong.

[TBF]

47. ...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. I always thought that pretending to misunderstand your opponent's point

was a right-wing argumentation tactic.

[socialist_n_TN]

56. It is. I used to post on a political board that was mostly RW.........

and I saw it all the time. I didn't want to bring it up, but now that you have Lydia I can agree.

[99Forever]

58. Nope. I see it all the time out of...

.. people who claim to be on "my side." Have yet to figure out who it is they think they are fooling.

[Huey P. Long]

60. Mainstream Economist: We Might Need to Hang Some Bankers to Stop Criminal Looting

Mainstream Economist: We Might Need to Hang Some Bankers to Stop Criminal Looting
Posted on July 8, 2012 by WashingtonsBlog

Even Nouriel Roubini Says We Need to Jail or Hang Some Bankers
Nobel prize winning economist Joe Stiglitz – and many other experts – have said nothing will change unless dishonest bankers are jailed.

Former trader Max Keiser has been calling for years for crooked bankers to be hanged, to send a message that crime won’t be tolerated.
But Nouriel Roubini is a lot more mainstream than Keiser – or even Stiglitz – being very close to Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner. See this and this.

Roubini told Bloomberg that nothing has changed since the start of the financial crisis, and we might need to throw bankers in jail – or hang them in the streets – before they’ll change:

Nobody has gone to jail since the financial crisis. The banks, they do things that are illegal and at best they slap on them a fine. If some people end up in jail, maybe that will teach a lesson to somebody. Or somebody hanging in the streets.

-
I noted 7 years ago:
I am NOT calling for the overthrow of the government. In fact, I am calling for the reinstatement of our government. I am calling for an end to lawless dictatorship and a return to the rule of law. Rather than trying to subvert the constitution, I am calling for its enforcement.

***

The best way to avoid all types of revolution would be for the government to start following the rule of law. I passionately hope it will do so.

The fact that even mainstream economists like Roubini are talking about hanging bankers shows that this is the last chance for the justice system – the only thing which stands between criminals on Wall Street and pitchforks – to work.


-
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/07/mainstream-economist-we-might-need-to-hang-some-bankers-to-stop-illegal-behavior.html

[hifiguy]

63. Trying some banksters for crimes against humanity,

and then publicly hanging them, would be an excellent first step. Fear is likely the only emotion powerful enough to overcome the greed these bastards are so addicted to.

Oh, and claw back every last dime from their families. After that, you can sell the families into slavery in Dubai as an example to the rest of the vampires.

[NNN0LHI]

62. There is no such thing as status quo when we have strong unions

And anti-union "socialists" don't scare me. They make me sick.

Don

[Wild_Dog]

67. How do you explain that socialist are "anti-union"?

[socialist_n_TN]

68. Anti-union? Where the fuck did you get THAT???

I'm not real fond of fatcat union leadership at times, but I believe in worker organization. In fact I think that workers ought to run things in the economy. Who the fuck needs bosses anyway?

[Wild_Dog]

65. Capitalist are Labor Usurers

Capitalist aka “Capitalusurer”do not work!
They create nothing.

“Capitalusurers'” are labor usurers!
There once were laws against usury!

“Capitalusurers'” apply capital to use our labor!
When they are finished with us they throw us into a compost pile to rot our bodies and spirit.
When our laboring days are done we should be able to look back on the tree we planted, tended and cared for with pride and pick the fruit. Sit with our grandchildren and enjoy a fruit salad.

Capital is mobile, labor is not. We work where the “Capitalusurer” chooses and when the “Capitalusurer” chooses to move the capital we are stuck without a job trying to pay for a house, car, children’s education, food, etc, etc. We can’t easily move to China to work in the “Capitalusurers'” new plant for a 1.00/day.

Worker/Capitalist “A New Paradigm”!
Workers need to be in charge of our produce (work) and decide how we will capitalize on our labor AND what we will do with the old worn out “labor machine”; “We The Worker”.

Don’t expect the “Capitalist/Job Creator “GAG” to give us anything, we must rip the control “Capitalusurers'” have over our lives and politics from their greedy little fist.

More here
http://beauproductions.com/usworld/forum/index.php/topic,1125.0.html