Philadelphia Mayor Apparently Wants Occupy National Gathering Participants to Go Thirsty in Heat

I bet they'd let a Tea Party gathering have all the water they want..

Quan in Oakland...Seattle, Denver, LA...

The system doesn't like being challenged.

if they don't out-thug Daley in '68.

As Nikolai Gogol might point out, there are "Dead Souls" enough for all . . .

From Wiki:

In the Russian Empire, before the emancipation of the serfs in 1861, landowners were entitled to own serfs to farm their land. Serfs were for most purposes considered the property of the landowner, and could be bought, sold or mortgaged, as any other chattel. To count serfs (and people in general), the measure word "soul" was used: e.g., "six souls of serfs". The plot of the novel relies on "dead souls" (i.e., "dead serfs") which are still accounted for in property registers. On another level, the title refers to the "dead souls" of Gogol's characters, all of which visualise different aspects of poshlost (an untranslatable Russian word which is perhaps best rendered as "self-satisfied inferiority", moral and spiritual, with overtones of middle-class pretentiousness, fake significance and philistinism).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Souls

And who organizes a gathering in sweltering heat with planning to provide water?

Ergo it had to be a Republican..

could be trusted to have humane, civilized values.

Instead, this Philly mayor is honoring the memory of one his more, er, memorable predecessors:

Which often does come off sounding a bit naive/ignorant if taken literally.

But thank you for trying to think the best of me..

Still, I wasn't actually replying to you on that post.

They know, or should know, that few municipal governments, regardless of party, are going to do anything to help them or make their lives easier. This point was demonstrated time and time again last year and earlier this year.

Assuming that any mayor, unless he or she has publicly stated support for the movement, is going to do anything to help them, including keeping them hydrated in scorching weather, is not smart, IMO.

Denying basic general public services to people in an area now under heat death advisory? That's going to win friends and influence people. It goes to show who owns what...and it's not we, the people. Time to take it all back.

Is the City responsible for providing water and air conditioning to people who made no effort to provide for themselves?

Here in Tucson we never go anywhere without water and some kind of sun-protection.

Are we not responsible for our brother and sister's well-being? Do we not act when someone is in dire need?

the Philly PD firebombed MOVE headquarters and killed 11 terrorists disguised as women and children.

Nutter has swings that defy explanation at times. There are lots of us who voted for him because WE had no other choice. A Repig would have been out of the question.

Should know better by now.

Thanks!

at the Federal level is that each stop is a heads up for the next one.

Hoover would be proud of this.

Unbelievable...we knew this after the primary but nothing we could do.

There is practically no Republican Party to speak of in this city. Nutter is a right wing asshole. Anti-Union, anti-public education, anti-anything good for the People. He's a piece of shit and I hate that he is my Mayor. The party machine is so strong here that almost nothing can be done to break it open. I ran for committeeman here a few years ago and they even rigged that election for the incumbent. We're so screwed here locally. The only good thing is that the city will vote 90% for Obama in November.

none of it good.

That the first thing he did when elected mayor was to threaten to close the city libraries and pools. For all the idiots we've had his mayor over the years, none have been so anti-populist as this "gentleman".

He has been an absolute zero in terms of his ability to work with business interests, people, the professionals, and even his own staff. So naturally, he is the first mayor in my memory to run fundamentally unopposed for reelection. It was unbelievable that no one and I mean no one, challenged him in any way, shape, or form. He makes ourformer mayor, the incompetent W Wilson Goode seem like Teddy Roosevelt by comparison. Mayor Goode by the way was the mayor who dropped the bomb on the MOVE headquarters back in the 80s thoughts igniting an entire neighborhood because the people who inhabited the building we're guilty of public disruption and dirty habits. Oh yes, and noise: they made a lot of noise. So this guy figured the best thing to do would be to drop the device on to their home and blow it up. Well, things as many of us recall, did not work out so well. Of course the mayor was reelected in a landslide.

Great town this one.

In fact, I think that puts Goode right in the same ballpark as Frank Rizzo.

Corrupt, sordid, murderous, ridiculous.

They need only to call themselves a democrat, and you will find enough clueless democrats that will, believing it's the safe thing to do, vote for democrats no matter what. Unfortunately, this is how good people vote into power, evil predators like Adolf Hitler, and all they have to do is call themselves a democrat.

On a true Democratic platform. So crazy it might work.

"If we must do evil to prevent evil there is nothing worth saving."

I am reminded as to why there are so few honest people in government.

Honest people have a conscience, and that makes it difficult for them to conceal their true motives, not only from the voters, but more importantly, from the big money predators who finance the campaigns of crony con-artist.

And honest people need not apply; the game is most certainly rigged in the favor of the bad guys.

Search Twitter for #NatGat

He doesn't need any "donors". He is a lame duck.

what is next? EMS cannot respond on a heat stroke call?

OWS Week
Casseroles Solidarity March about to leave Franklin Square in Philadelphia. Philly Fire Chief's response when asked about denying water to the protesters in dangerously oppressive heat: "Just following orders."

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=403972222982051&set=a.332383203474287.74901.314960565216551&type=1&theater

They should have foreseen this and arranged independent sources. Hindsight is 20/20 I know, but I can't fault the PTB for taking advantage of the weather to diminish Occupy's impact. It's just good tactics.

That the City of Philadelphia agreed to provide logistical support to Occupy and then broke it's agreement? Do you know that happened?

I didn't see that in the info provided, but it's possible, I guess. Is the city providing free water for others as a matter of policy, and discriminating against Occupy?

Not the most humane way to handle a protest....

And now the city's EMS have been in the awkward position of denying water to the public in a heat wave.

That's not good unless they want to drum up business.

Occupy's failure to publicize and organize this Fourth of July to-do was pretty disappointing to me. I had high hopes last Fall, but they seem to have squandered their momentum. They remind me a little of the various Tea Party entities post-2010 when the Koch's stopped supporting them (so much) and they turned on each other.

They did succeed in raising the public consciousness towards income inequality, but I don't see them as having a viable Second Act at this time. A Republican sweep of the Presidency and legislatures would empower them, of course, but I'm not rooting for that to happen, obviously.

As for Philly's EMS, I'm sure they will hydrate anyone in dire need, but it is Occupy's responsibility to provide it's own logistical support, not the city's. Those are the kinds of tasks that build capability and experience for an organization. They need to demonstrate self sufficiency and competance before they can solve the rest of our problems.

they lacked for water was when their stuff was confiscated or when the police disrupted the supply line somehow. If you deny them the use of water, you effectively end the protest, right? It's too soon to call them incompetent because we don't have enough information.

They thought they have a right to the city water supply, which the city gets and pays for the same as the citizenry. By that logic they should depend on the city to feed and house them as well. I'm not calling them incompetent, but I will stand by my accusation of naivety. It's hard to grow a grass roots organization without any hierarchy - they'll have to invent some new ways of doing things.

As far as assuming access to the city's emergency services, that is likely the law.

This was a planned (poorly) event, not a scheduled emergency. An adequate supply of water, including anticipating for summer weather, was not the responsibility of the city EMS. They showed up, demanded water from the city, and then say they're being repressed when the city fails to oblige. Just go to Wawa and buy some water.

You don't know that is true. Historically, it's highly unlikely.

And yes, assisting people in trouble from the heat is most definitely the province of EMS.

You don't have enough information to make faces, lol. But go right ahead, if it makes you happy.

that there is some kid in sub-saharan Africa watching this and thinking "how fucking stupid are Americans? How are you guys rich and I'm poor? You can't even figure out that you should drink water when it's hot out?"

Occupiers intended to be able to get water from a fire station nearby where the Gathering has been taking place (right downtown around Independence Mall). When occupiers went to get water for participants who would be at today’s activities, a firefighter said the department could not give occupiers water. A direct order had been given from Nutter to not provide water to occupiers.

The use of "would be" makes it clear that they went to get water not for people that were already there and in need of water at that moment, but rather they went there to stock up for anticpated attendees. Why would they do that if they had planned to supply their own water?

but they are involved with the situation ongoing and I still don't get it. At one point, someone reported the Quakers negotiated with the city and water was turned on somewhere. Or, not. LOL.

But this is a five day event and these people plan everything. Matt Taibbi is speaking right now. The plan was not "trust the city". I just haven't been able to figure out what it was / is.

It's not a secret that the weather has been very hot lately. Someone planning this exercise would have taken that into consideration.

If, say, a union was overseeing that protest, there would have been tons of advance publicity, there would be clear, readable signs for the protesters, a schedule of events promulgated by organizational people who ensured the protest got started on time, people to keep the rest of the group moving, people going from group to group passing out free ice cold plastic bottles of water, and other people going from group to group taking the empties and recycling them so the group didn't leave a mess for the city to deal with.

There would be no need to go to a fire station and say "Give me water."

I'm surprised some profiteers didn't get out there and make a few sales...or maybe they did.

your silence about the cruelty taking place.

I'm sure you'd find a way to call someone dieing of heat stroke there just a "failure to plan ahead."

The NLG number in Philadelphia is 484-758-0488, please retweet, people are being arrested. #natgat

The recorded stream will come up:

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/jrozlive

Jayron ‏@Jayron26

ALERT:There is no video from #NATGAT MASS ARREST. All streamers have been arrested. #OO #OPDX #OCHI #OLA #OCCUPYPHILLY #OCCUPYBOSTON

What part of conflict do they not understand? You don't go to battle expecting your enemy to give you stuff.

And if you deny general public services to one group, you must deny them to all.

You cannot depend upon a fire station's water supply during a drought. That water is earmarked for nothing but fires.

Plan better. It can be done.

Fire departments respond to all kinds of public emergencies, not just fires. EMS for Philadelphia is out of the fire department. Duh.

http://www.phila.gov/fire/units_and_services/units_ems_overview.html

Plan better. All it takes is some planning and a few dollars and you are not dependent upon strapped water resources during a drought.

No sympathy.

and your criticism should be taken with that in mind.

or understanding of how fucked up that is and your posts should be taken with that in mind.

FUCK OCCUPY. If they cannot plan their own protests, they are worthless and should be dismissed as idiots.

I doubt that providing water for protesters would be considered a general public service.

Without meaning to, they would make it more difficult for engines to leave in case of a real emergency.

To boldly deny someone a basic human need in these conditions is inhuman.

All the more reason for the Occupiers to have planned to provide it rather than assuming that someone would provide it for them.

No other animal on Earth pays for water.

You think water should be free? Fine. But if you know it isn't, and you know you're going to have a large gathering in sweltering heat, why would you not make plans to ensure that water is available?

Hint: Assuming that the city, who has to pay for the water, is going to give it away for free is not a plan.

As for other animals not charging for water, I'm not aware of any animals that pull the water from where it is to where it is needed, treat it, and distribute it to individual habitats for the use of others of their species.

If you think it's just the 1% that are involved in the distribution of water, you're sadly mistaken.

That's some scary stuff there; I can't parse that so many are okay with a system which not only decrees it, but would allow it.

Do the Occupiers have any responsiblity to provide and care for the people that they are bringing in for the protests?

"The people who live in tornado alley, just as I live in hurricane alley, they should have insurance," Paul said.

Ron Paul: No Federal Financial Aid for Tornado Victims

http://news.yahoo.com/ron-paul-no-federal-financial-aid-tornado-victims-102533838.html

Seriously.

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/artfuldodger.htm

Come on, you can do better than that.

Unless you wish to continue to argue for not taking care of people in need...?

Are they not adults, capable of walking down the street to the nearest shop?

Your blatently implied assumption of the protestors' incompetence is disturbing.

to care of their needs, i.e., providing water? You talk a good game about everyone taking care of each other, yet you don't expect the Occupiers to take care of each other.

Why not?

There are water stations set up for participants. Occupy is not incompetent.

If they had done that yesterday, all of this drama could have been avoided.

The fact that Occupy organizers are providing water to participants doesn't negate the fact that the mayor appears to be making things as difficult as possible for Occupy. Both things can be true at the same time.

But since the outcry was that people were going to be suffering heat stroke because the mayor wouldn't give them water, it's highly doubtful.

Bottom line is that protesters should come prepared to sustain the protest, and given the hue and cry yesterday, that didn't seem to be the case. Especially given that the protesters went to the fire station to get water for people that "would" be coming. No one was ill, no one was dying, no one was in dire need of water for health reasons. They just wanted free water.

They're out there fighting the hard fight that others of us aren't or can't. They're smart, they have a vision and they have goals.

And that's what's so maddening about something that is so silly and so easily avoided. I can't think of a single city over the last few months that has welcomed Occupy with open arms, eager to help in any way they could. Why would the Occupy leaders think that this would be different? I mean come on - they're protesting and speaking truth to power, and they expect the people that hold that power to sustain them because they didn't come prepared to sustain themselves?

Expecting the city to provide them free water just feeds into the stereotypes that the right tries to promulgate about Occupy - that they're lazy do nothings that want everything handed to them.

providing drinking water to people become a public service. If you go hiking in a state park are the employees responsible for providing you with drinking water, of course not. It's time for a reality check, bring your own water. You are responsible for your own health and well being, not the city.

http://news.yahoo.com/ron-paul-no-federal-financial-aid-tornado-victims-102533838.html

Please consider. Would "let them die of heat stroke and dehydration" be a similar stance, and if so, why take it?

To boldly deny someone a basic human need in these conditions is inhuman. Have we sunk this low:

"The people who live in tornado alley, just as I live in hurricane alley, they should have insurance," (Ron) Paul said.

Ron Paul: No Federal Financial Aid for Tornado Victims

http://news.yahoo.com/ron-paul-no-federal-financial-aid-tornado-victims-102533838.html

Just not at the fire department. They don't sit around all day waiting for crowds of people to show up for water.

Well, Occupy got a good story out of it, which is likely what they wanted in the first place.

Seriously, suggesting such a thing is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

You'd rather houses burn down and real sick people die so you can hold a protest?

Fuck that shit, plan the protest better. There's a fucking drought on.

will think - They knowingly went to protest in 90+ degree heat and didn't bring water. That's bright.

Just think of it as evolution in action.

"Let them die" would be a Libertarian stance, yes?

Reaganite...

Grow. Up.

The world is not binary.

Seems to be much of the root of our problems today. Imma Occupy that!

Your omniscience is Teh Phale.

Interestingly enough, you've also back-handed the protesters by repeatedly insinuating that they are too stupid to go get water on their own.

Who's the one with "quite a philosophy" around here?

I mean here you are deeming people "too stupid to live" because they're relying on public infrastructure to provide a basic human need instead of, dunno, sinking a lot of money into Aquifina or some other corporate water you favor.

Seriously.

Hey the establishment won't support our protest. What gives?

agree upon they both have good (from their point of view) reasons for this listing to and occupy speaker like Cris Hedges for 15 or 20 minutes make this very clear.

sadly

Wendyofthe99percent ‏@OneLoveOccupy

Philadelphia Police Civil Affairs - 215-685-3685 #NATGAT @OccupyNG

T. Fawkes ‏@AnonToth

ALERT:There is no video from ‪#NATGAT‬ MASS ARREST. All streamers have been arrested. ‪#OO‬ ‪#OPDX‬ ‪#OCHI‬ ‪#OLA‬ ‪#OCCUPYPHILLY‬ ‪#OCCUPYBOSTON

https://twitter.com/AnonToth/status/219618523067072512

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Crusade

The Children's Crusade is the name given to a disastrous Crusade by Christian children to expel Muslims from the Holy Land said to have taken place in 1212...The variants of the long-standing story of the Children's Crusade have similar themes. A boy began preaching in either France or Germany claiming that he had been visited by Jesus and told to lead a Crusade to peacefully convert Muslims to Christianity. Through a series of supposed portents and miracles he gained a considerable following, including possibly as many as 30,000 children. He led his followers south towards the Mediterranean Sea, in the belief that the sea would part on their arrival, allowing him and his followers to march to Jerusalem, but this did not happen. Two merchants gave free passage on boats to as many of the children as were willing, but they were actually either taken to Tunisia and sold into slavery, or died in a shipwreck on San Pietro Island off Sardinia during a gale. Some may have failed to reach the sea, dying or giving up from starvation and exhaustion.

The traditional narrative is probably conflated from some factual and mythical notions of the period including visions by a French or German boy, an intention to peacefully convert Muslims in the Holy Land to Christianity, bands of children marching to Italy, and children being sold into slavery....According to more recent research there seem to have actually been two movements of people (of all ages) in 1212 in Germany and France. The similarities of the two allowed later chroniclers to combine and embellish the tales.

In the first movement, Nicholas, a shepherd from the Rhineland in Germany who possessed an extraordinary power of speech, tried to lead a group across the Alps and into Italy in the early spring of 1212. Nicholas promised that the sea would dry up before them and allow his followers to cross into the Holy Land. Rather than intending to fight the Saracens, he said that the Moslem kingdoms would be defeated when their citizens converted to Christianity. His disciples went off to preach the call for the "Crusade" across the German lands, and they massed in Cologne after a few weeks. Splitting into two groups, the crowds took different roads through Switzerland. Two out of every three people on this ghastly journey died, while many others returned to their homes. About 7,000 arrived in Genoa in late August. They immediately marched to the harbor, expecting the sea to divide before them; when it did not many became bitterly disappointed. A few accused Nicholas of betraying them, while others settled down to wait for God to change his mind, since they believed that it was unthinkable he would not eventually do so. The Genoese authorities were impressed by the little band, and they offered citizenship to those who wished to settle in their city. Most of the would-be Crusaders took up this opportunity. Nicholas refused to admit defeat and traveled to Pisa, his movement continuing to break up along the way. He and a few loyal followers continued to the Papal States, where Pope Innocent III treated them kindly enough. The remaining ones departed for Germany after the Pontiff told them to be good and return home. Nicholas did not survive the second attempt across the Alps; back home his father was arrested and hanged under pressure from angry families whose relatives had perished while following the child.

Some of the most dedicated members of this Crusade were later reported to have wandered to Ancona and Brindisi; none reached the Holy Land.

The second movement was led by a twelve-year-old French shepherd boy named Stephan of Cloyes, who claimed in June that he bore a letter for the king of France from Jesus. Large gangs of youth around his age were drawn to him, most of whom claimed to possess special gifts of God and thought themselves miracle workers. Attracting a following of over 30,000 adults and children, he went to Saint-Denis, where he was seen to cause miracles. On the orders of Philip II, advised by the University of Paris, the people were implored to return home. Philip himself did not appear impressed, especially since his unexpected visitors were led by a mere child, and refused to take them seriously. Stephan, however, was not dissuaded, and began preaching at a nearby abbey. From Saint-Denis, Stephan traveled around France, spreading his messages as he went, promising to lead charges of Christ to Jerusalem. Although the Church was skeptical, many adults were impressed by his teaching. Still, few of those who initially joined him possessed his activeness; it is estimated that there were less than half the initial 30,000 remaining, a figure that was shrinking rapidly, rather than growing as perhaps anticipated.

At the end of June 1212, Stephan led his largely juvenile Crusaders from Vendôme to Marseilles. They survived by begging for food, while the vast majority seem to have been disheartened by the hardship of this journey and returned to their families.



A study published in 1977 cast doubt on the existence of these events, and many historians came to believe that they were not (or not primarily) children but multiple bands of "wandering poor" in Germany and France, some of whom tried to reach the Holy Land and others who never intended to do so. Early versions of events, of which there are many variations told over the centuries, are largely apocryphal...Recent research suggests the participants were not children, at least not the very young. The confusion started because later chroniclers, who were not witness to the events of 1212 and who were writing 30 years or more later, began to translate the original accounts and understood the Latin word pueri, meaning "boys", to mean literally "children". The original accounts did use the term pueri, but it had a derogatory slang meaning, as in present-day calling an adult man a "boy" to be condescending. In the early 13th century, bands of wandering poor started cropping up throughout Europe; these were people displaced by economic changes at the time which forced many peasants in northern France and Germany to sell their land—they were often referred to condescendingly as pueri. This mistaken literal interpretation of pueri as "children" gave rise to the idea of a "Children's Crusade" by later authors who found the story too good not to be true, particularly with so much public support and interest in crusading. Within a generation or two after 1212, the idea of children going on crusade became ingrained in history, retold countless times over the centuries with many different versions, and only in the 20th century has the myth been re-examined by looking at the earliest sources (see Historical studies AT LINK).

My favorite was when Occupy Fights Foreclosures recently won back a widow's home from an illegal foreclosure.

http://occupyobservations.blogspot.com/2012/05/dirma-beats-foreclosure.html

and were in Sacremento this week demanding action against foreclosures.

And:

http://whatthefuckhasoccupydone.com/

And what is Occupy doing in LA these days:

http://626wilshire.wikispaces.com/NoWalmartInChinatown

They should have planned for a source for water. Many water systems in cities from Illinois down to the Gulf and across to the Atlantic are overtaxed. There's definitely a public safety reason to not allow a fire station's water supply to be used for this as they need to have water read for potential fires.

There's a drought on and it's been obvious there would be a drought for months. The Occupy people need to plan better.

cliff potts ‏@cliffpotts

RT @korgasm_: Philly PD arrested every single marcher (~30) AND the streamers tonight #natgat #ows #oo #occupy (live at...

https://twitter.com/Timcast/status/219624091412471809/photo/1

I don't know why the city is under obligation to provide free water. I'm sure the fire department has to pay the agency that provides water. They are all separate municipal taxing units. Whenever I go to events, the organizers provide the water, not the city. Why would this be any different?

Why should taxpayers foot the bill for free water for protesters? Should the city provide free water for the next KKK demonstration?

Oh wait, cops don't beat up KKK and neo-nazis when they march or gather.

I've never seen a protest where water wasn't available. Disrupting the water is a way to control or end the protest.

Cops and government are ALWAYS guilty of unprovoked, horrible abuses -- no evidence required. Protesters are always innocent victims of malevolent forces, and if you have video evidence proving otherwise, the perpetrators are actually cops or not affiliated with the movement -- no evidence required.

See. Easy peasy.

provide them with free water and they were denied.

It is called the "fire" department not the "water" department. If you have a fire call them. If you're thirsty, call someone else.

Fox Noise wouldn't broadcast anything else all week.

to lead us to the Promised Land? Seeing how the report is from NorquistDogLake, I'll reserve judgement of the Mayor.

Or arrange with sympathetic businesses to get water. How are they entitled to have the city provide anything?

It's summer, therefore it's hot. Bring your own water.
If there is a fire call, people have to get out of the way of the firefighters and their equipment. Then I suppose they would complain that they were thrown out of the firehouse.

bring their own water. Camel packs are available everywhere. In addition why is the fire department under any obligation to provide water to protesters. The organizers should set up water stations along the route. I am sure something can be worked out. Contract with one of the local water vendors on a short term agreement might be an option.

The organizers of these protests are a very sharp group of people, I am sure they will work it out.

they aren't just spontaneous. There has to be some leadership somewhere that handles logistics.

That's been pointed out many, many times on DU. But there are always excuses for why no one wants to step up.

lol

They didn't plan for water.

N/T

...if you really think about it.

Oh wait. Nevermind. It doesn't. This make them look so foolish I tend to think the story was planted.

....to some......read the thread.....it works on some.

Occupiers intended to be able to get water from a fire station...

FAIL. Anyone who ventures outside in the heat without bringing sufficient water for his or her own needs is a fool.