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Wed Jan 25, 2017, 09:41 AM

Don't look now: It's President Pence! Donald Trump can be deposed, even without impeachment

Given Trump's erratic behavior in his first few days, Washington is starting to murmur about the 25th Amendment

HEATHER DIGBY PARTON


Donald Trump is in over his head. This comes as no surprise to the millions of people who could see that he was unprepared and unfit for the job of president of he United States and voted against him. Heís basically a celebrity heir to a fortune who was so entitled that he believed his privileged existence proved he was competent to run the most powerful nation on earth. Thatís the attitude of an aristocrat who ascended to the throne without having any idea what it actually takes to rule. Historyís full of such men. It doesnít often work out well.

Trump managed to convince enough voters in just the right places that his ďbusiness success,Ē born mostly of hype and relentless public relations over many years, qualified him for the Oval Office. Since the Protestant work ethic and the philosophy of virtuous capitalism still permeate American culture, itís not uncommon for people to equate financial success with superior intelligence and character. Many among the public undoubtedly assumed that Trumpís persona at the rallies was something of a salesmanís act, that he was playing the role of demagogue to rile up the crowd. They assumed that behind closed doors he was a smart and able businessman, making tough decisions on the fly, handling many issues at once.

Those voters didnít see what millions of others felt instinctively, and which explains the shocked reaction and immediate resistance to his election: Trumpís incessant bragging, his lack of empathy or remorse, his pathological lying and even his bizarre appearance were signs of an unstable personality. It was obvious to many of us that something was not right.

The presidential transition was a dumpster fire with endless resignations, rumors and public humiliations. Trumpís refusal to deal responsibly with the intelligence communityís investigations into Russian interference in the campaign was worrying. Picking a fight with them over it was downright alarming. Still, one couldnít help but think that the weight of the job might inspire the staff and the people close to him to instill some discipline into the system and keep the new president focused once he took the wheel. That hasnít happened. The first days of the new administration have been a disaster.

more
http://www.salon.com/2017/01/25/dont-look-now-its-president-pence-donald-trump-can-be-deposed-even-without-impeachment/

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Reply Don't look now: It's President Pence! Donald Trump can be deposed, even without impeachment (Original post)
DonViejo Jan 25 OP
raging moderate Jan 25 #1
neeksgeek Jan 25 #7
Sunny05 Jan 25 #14
mopinko Jan 25 #2
nini Jan 25 #17
mopinko Jan 25 #19
nini Jan 25 #20
Ligyron Jan 25 #31
Spock_is_Skeptical Jan 25 #40
TrekLuver Jan 25 #44
libtodeath Jan 25 #24
SammyWinstonJack Jan 25 #33
cab67 Jan 25 #22
mopinko Jan 25 #23
Pachamama Jan 25 #30
mopinko Jan 25 #34
IthinkThereforeIAM Jan 25 #42
ginnyinWI Jan 25 #3
Javaman Jan 25 #4
gordianot Jan 25 #5
world wide wally Jan 25 #6
BainsBane Jan 25 #9
AwakeAtLast Jan 25 #43
onenote Jan 25 #8
onetexan Jan 25 #10
TrekLuver Jan 25 #46
onetexan Jan 25 #47
Hugin Jan 25 #11
notdarkyet Jan 25 #12
calimary Jan 25 #39
lindysalsagal Jan 25 #13
Chakaconcarne Jan 25 #15
Moostache Jan 25 #16
mnhtnbb Jan 25 #18
Yo_Mama Jan 25 #21
cab67 Jan 25 #37
Dirty Socialist Jan 25 #25
zipplewrath Jan 25 #27
UltravioletDingo Jan 25 #26
zipplewrath Jan 25 #28
Eliot Rosewater Jan 25 #29
Pachamama Jan 25 #32
Locrian Jan 25 #35
ailsagirl Jan 25 #38
Puzzler Jan 25 #36
MountCleaners Jan 25 #41
KittyWampus Jan 25 #45

Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 09:46 AM

1. As previously orchestrated?

Please, smart people, there is something else here, but I am not smart enough to see it exactly. I think it started a year ago with the Republicon refusal to follow the Constitution and allow the sitting US President to carry out his prescribed duty of naming a Supreme Court Justice. Or maybe even before that with their refusal to allow him to carry out his prescribed duty of naming many other officials. And then there is Crosscheck, so bogus that even I can see through it. And the conspiracy to vilify Hillary Clinton.

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Response to raging moderate (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 10:34 AM

7. Yeah there's something else here all right

It's called a coup d'etat.

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Response to raging moderate (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 11:32 AM

14. Indeed, just today, saw another thread

... by GliderGuider who posed a framework about the bigger, more profound, real situation. It involves Bannon, Dugin, and Putin.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028533567

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 09:59 AM

2. this is what i really want. not impeachment.

i want it clear in the history books that those of us who saw how unfit he was were EXACTLY.FUCKING.RIGHT.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 11:47 AM

17. I want him humiliated and destroyed

walk him out of the white house in straight jacket.

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Response to nini (Reply #17)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 11:54 AM

19. i have said that a few dozen times at this point. i want them to take him down w

a tranquilizer dart. on live teevee.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 11:57 AM

20. Perfect scenario

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Response to mopinko (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:19 PM

31. Somebody will have to throw a net over him at some point.

You just know it's coming...

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Response to mopinko (Reply #19)


Response to mopinko (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 10:05 PM

44. I would pay to see that.

 

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Response to nini (Reply #17)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:03 PM

24. I want him in jail.

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Response to nini (Reply #17)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:24 PM

33. Humiliated destroyed and JAILED, Him and Pence. Both of them.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:00 PM

22. I have mixed feelings about this.

There are two down sides:

- his supporters could claim it was part of a plot to engineer a coup. (Which it might well be.)

- it wouldn't acknowledge the real wrongdoing that put him in office in the first place.

Impeachment, in my opinion, would be far more universally discrediting. It would cause more harm to the Republican brand - their president was not only unstable, but broke the law. It might also bring the possibility of criminal indictment.

That being said, if they pulled a 25th to get him out, I won't complain. Either way, he'a gone.

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Response to cab67 (Reply #22)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:02 PM

23. he's gonna pitch the most epic tantrum in american history.

anyone who sticks up for him after that should be assigned a social worker.

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Response to cab67 (Reply #22)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:17 PM

30. After his voters have it in their pea sized brains that he actually wasn't elected but rather he was

..."selected" and "placed" into this position by Russian intelligence and hackers, then they can wrap it around whatever grey pea matter might remain that the Constitution exists and that lunatic Russian Asset is gone and their unpatriotic whining will be mocked and show the world their true allegiance.



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Response to Pachamama (Reply #30)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:24 PM

34. make examples of them.

i think anyone who still believes when this is all played out should be assigned a psych social worker, at the very least.

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Response to mopinko (Reply #2)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 04:17 PM

42. +1...


... eom.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 10:05 AM

3. So far, what I see

is a self-centered person consumed with trying desperately to win the adulation that he fully expects he deserves, without having to do anything to earn it. He's signing stuff and trying to do what he said he would do once in office, but it isn't reaping the immediate rewards (adulation) that he expected.

He is whining that he hasn't been able to enjoy being in the White House! What did he think, that this would be a vacation resort? He is expected to work, and work harder than he's ever worked before! And he's not up to the job.

If he stays on, he will probably do what he did in the real estate business: let others do the real work, and put his name on it and be the PR person. It's about the most he will be able to do.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 10:16 AM

4. This is what I have been saying all along...

From the article...

"Itís obvious that Trump has a narcissistic personality, which in itself is not disqualifying. Heís not the first president to have one, nor will he be the last. But his issues seem to run deeper than that. Some observers have suggested that he shows the characteristics of classic psychopathy. And there are plenty who see his behavior as blatantly self-destructive."

read up on The Dark Triad. Trump has it in spades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad

and as the pressures of the job mounts, he will only get more insane. bank on it.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 10:19 AM

5. This is quite possible but begs one question.

Are we being had?

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Response to gordianot (Reply #5)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 10:26 AM

6. Wrong tense...

We have already been HAD

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Response to gordianot (Reply #5)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 10:48 AM

9. I don't much care

Pence would be an improvement because he isn't pathologically unstable. Trump has no business being President.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #9)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 10:03 PM

43. Oh, Pence is pathological

Pathologically stupid. That is just as bad and makes for an even more willing puppet. We're screwed five ways from Sunday.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 10:47 AM

8. More wishful thinking. Its not going to happen.

It may make people feel better to imagine that Trump is going to be removed pursuant to the 25th Amendment but the chances of that happening are essentially zero.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 10:55 AM

10. Posting here the wording of Article 4 from article

This is the core message of the article:

"Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President."

What Congress then needs to do is to subject the idiot to a psychological test and, if deemed unfit, to forcefully remove him invoking the 25th Amendment, article 4. Question is which would be quicker - this or impeachment.

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Response to onetexan (Reply #10)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 10:09 PM

46. A Competency hearing! Just like they did on Star Trek.

 

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Response to TrekLuver (Reply #46)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 11:35 PM

47. Exactly!

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 10:58 AM

11. It ain't gonna happen.

I've come to the realization that any act or edict about Trump not being president anymore will be ignored... Impeachment or 25th Amendment.

Someone is going to have to physically and bodily drag Trump out of there. Kicking and screaming all the way. Even if this were to happen, Trump would continue to insist via "his people", Trumptter, and the RW Media he is actually still the president.

This is what they are all afraid of in Washington. They realize his support is dwindling, but, they don't have the guts to do what needs to be done. Also, doing so would de-legitimize their own positions. So, the nightmare will continue...

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Response to Hugin (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 11:05 AM

12. In a straight jacket. Nt

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Response to notdarkyet (Reply #12)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 02:10 PM

39. Welcome to DU, notdarkyet.

That would be fine with me. Or a big butterfly net. Or both!

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 11:16 AM

13. Majority, super or regular is not specified.

"Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President."


Might be pretty easy to get a simple majority of principle officers to hand it to pense.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 11:37 AM

15. My .02 premonition...

Perhaps slight bit of conspiracy.... the GOP can use this loose cannon in the white house to pass these draconian orders and establish the precedent and framework for the next 4 years.... they know it won't go over well so they can have a lamb to sacrifice / blame and then America can just take a deep sigh of relief once pence hits office.... then they will have a more well presented candidate for 2020. Right now if trump hits 2020 and the Russians aren't hacking for them, they will lose the wh. I think its just a matter of how long trump can hang, how much they can pass and the response of Americans.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 11:44 AM

16. This is not hard to see...hard to believe? Yes. Hard to see? No.

The GOP has effectively conducted a coup d'etat following the election and Presidency of Barrack Obama. It started in 2009 and has never stopped since then.

The Democrats 8 years ago held the White House, the Senate (with a near 60-vote majority...except for that lecherous fiend Lieberman and the weak-kneed, useless 'Blue Dogs') and the House. 8 years ago. Now? We are cast into the wilderness and wandering. There is not a lot of hope out here either...by the time we collectively reverse this situation, there may be permanent dammage to the ecology and the country that we won't be able to undo for generations.

From Day One of the Obama Administration (even earlier if you start counting from McConnell's 'one-term president' speech), the entire GOP began plotting exactly what we have now...single Party GOP rule and a permanent conservative majority in the SCOTUS BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.

It started in earnest with the Health Care Debates ahead of the passing of the ACA. Death panels? As soon as they got away with letting that idiotic twit from Alaska peddle that nonsense and turn it into a rallying cry for the "base", I KNEW we were well and truly fucked, even if I did not want to believe it then or even now. I struggle with this because I have a rational mind and I base my beliefs on solid evidence and facts. I do not make decisions on "gut feeling" and I do not allow emotion to over-ride logic and fact when evaluating claims and as a result I find myself completely unable to find common ground or understanding with people we do ascribe to this idiocy.

It only got worse from there..."You LIE"...."Obamacare is a 'disaster' (YEARS before it went into effect....and then EVERY day after)"...cabinet postings and ambassadors and naming judges (ALL denied, delayed, put on hold)...up to the usurpation of the naming of Supreme Court Justices (if ANY democrat votes to confirm a SINGLE Trump nominee to any judicial post, I am through with the party until that traitorous rat is drummed out of the party...and if the 'go-along; get-along' crowd does not like that position, they are cordially invited to kiss my ass on both cheeks and tongue me in the middle.

It's hard to believe this has worked so well for them. Impossible really. But it is not hard to see how they did it and recognize that the Democratic Party lacks any kind of credible response now or in the near-term future. The only hope is total, complete resistance to EVERYTHING (just like the GOP did to Obama), but there are too many weak people in the Democratic leadership, too many people like Claire McCaskill from my home state that are worried more about retaining a Blue seat in a Red State and mistake re-election as the goal instead of advancing a Party agenda or philosophy.

Trump is being EXACTLY as I thought he would...as a distraction from the hideous things the GOP is going to pass with his rubber stamp signature. It is depressing in a way that has destroyed my optimism for the future and put me into a deep depression that shows no signs of letting up at all.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 11:53 AM

18. The key language here is, IMO

"or of such other body as Congress may by law provide," which would give Congress the opportunity to pass a law
creating a body to assess the physical and mental fitness of the President--making it retroactive--requiring
the incumbent and all future candidates for the Presidency to undergo physical/mental evaluations prior to
taking office.

Whether Republicans will recognize this is in the best interest of the country, who knows? They are an incredibly self-destructive
group of a$$holes.

But, it looks to me as though the opening is there in the language of the 25th Amendment.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 11:58 AM

21. This BS is just getting in the way of what we need to do - focus on 2018

There's a lot of work to be done. It can be successful, but not if the Dems run after this National Inquirer half-human half-gator stuff.

There's no evidence that Trump is imbalanced or perturbed at all. None. He's happily holding meetings with businessmen and labor union leaders and so forth.

And claiming that daring to run for president without being qualified proves that he is nuts is rather crazy itself, given that he did win the damned election. We don't have to be happy about it. We do have to deal with it in a way that is not insane.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #21)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:31 PM

37. Yes and no.

2018 should absolutely be our top priority. But if Trump's behavior becomes a real threat to US security, we may have no choice.

And I think his behavior is starting to cross that line. At this point, which world leader will trust anything coming from his mouth? Who in the US intelligence community is going to give him sensitive information, knowing he'll simultaneously dismiss and leak it? It's not a matter of imbalance per se - it's a matter of his personality disorder (which isn't necessarily the same thing as mental illness) being enough of a threat to national security that he has to go. Less than a week into his administration, we're very close to that point.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:08 PM

25. Can we do a recall election?

Can that be done?

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Response to Dirty Socialist (Reply #25)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:13 PM

27. No

Which is why a huge number of Constitutional Amendments are about the order of succession and removal of Presidents from office.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:12 PM

26. My thoughts exactly

"Those voters didnít see what millions of others felt instinctively..."

That "instinct" in me is so loud and so strong that I still can't imagine how any of his voters thought he would be fit for the presidency. I am still in disbelief and I feel some measure of sadness every single day. How can people be so stupid? Wanting to have Trump in office is worse than picking a random name out of a hat. He was destined to wreak havoc. It was so painfully obvious. Am I just a much better judge of character than all of his supporters? I don't get it and I never will.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:15 PM

28. Oh, boy, the frog march crap again

The only way he leaves is if he resigns. He only resigns if they force him to divest himself of his Trump related businesses. He only gets forced if congress or the courts choose to do so. Congress ain't, and I'm dubious after he appoints the next SC judge that they will either.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:16 PM

29. Would have to be done on the down low, if he got wind of it he would start sending nukes everywhere

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:21 PM

32. Can both the 25th Amendment and Impeachment happen?

As well as criminal and civil charges against him? Just wondering and hoping that the gates of hell can be unleashed on him.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:24 PM

35. not yet

It's just getting started.
I think they'll wait for a biggly "shock" like economic collapse or terrorist attack.
Not sure how long it will take.

Then they throw trump to the wolves and lock it all up with disaster capitalism for the final nail in the coffin of freedom.

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Response to Locrian (Reply #35)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:41 PM

38. It's downright terrifying that something major has to happen before something can be done

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 12:25 PM

36. Yes, absolutely...

Keith O. made this point forcefully about a month ago. If I remember, it's Article 28 of the 25th Amendment.

This is definitely quite possible. Trump is a massive loose cannon, for everyone. Yes, he may be useful for the GOP, but he's also a huge liability. Pence is an easy choice for conservative Republicans, and probably a massive mistake for Trump to have made with his VP choice. Pence is an archconservative asshole. But compared to Trump, he's massively more competent. More importantly he's not (at least visably) nuts.

Pence is perfect for the GOP (unfortunately), and with a clearly unstable and unpopular Trump rapidly becoming more unglued daily (if that were possible)... I think this is an absolute no-brainer for the GOP.

To be clear, I detest Pence. But with a wildly unstable Trump at the nuclear codes, I have to reluctantly concede, that in order to win in 2020, we need a planet to win on.

The safety of our planet has to be
paramount, and in that regard I trust Pence far more than Trump (as much as I hate to say it).

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 03:21 PM

41. This is what the Christian right wants

They're such hypocritical, greedy assholes. Reading the Heritage Foundation's website and seeing their millionaire leadership just makes me want to puke. They want their guy in the WH.

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Response to DonViejo (Original post)

Wed Jan 25, 2017, 10:07 PM

45. Better this than Treason/Collaborating with Putin.

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