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NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
Sat Nov 26, 2016, 11:07 PM Nov 2016

HRC/Democrats Lost Due to WRONG Message

That’s the truth of the matter. For too many in this country, the Democrats are always wrong on all counts – not because we are wrong, but because we adhere to principles that are considered wrong by a vast swath of the citizenry.

The war between Democrats and Republicans used to be about common goals, the difference between the two parties being how best to achieve them. For decades, this has no longer been the case.

What we are now up against is not differing ideologies. American politics is now a war of the intelligent v the stupid, the fact-based v the gullible, the educated v the ill-informed – the latter group in each case having been nurtured by FOX-News, encouraged by people like Limbaugh, and ultimately catered-to by the GOP in every election.

We are fighting against people who will never accept what we Democrats stand for, regardless of who delivers the message; people who refuse to hear what we have to say, regardless of who says it, or how well they say it.

We have just witnessed an election where people – who know Trump is anti-union, doesn’t pay the people who work for him, and outsources his own brand-name merchandise to low-wage countries – voted for him as the champion of the working class. We saw people who claim to be upstanding, moral Christians vote for a man who bragged about “grabbing pussies”. We saw people who depend on Medicare, Medicaid, and Obamacare vote for the man who is set on destroying all of the above. And that’s just for starters.

It’s US v THEM, and the truth is:

When we say let’s embrace diversity, they hear let’s make America less “American”.

When we say let’s welcome immigrants, they hear let’s invite rapists and terrorists to live among us.

When we say a woman should have the right to choose, they hear let’s murder babies.

When we say LGBTers should have equal rights, they hear let’s indulge in immorality and turn our backs on God.

When we stand up for things like welfare and food stamps, they hear let’s give our tax dollars to those too lazy to work for a living.

When we stand up for freedom of religion, they hear let’s destroy Christianity.

When we encourage sensible gun control, they hear let’s confiscate everyone’s guns.

When we talk about the importance of education, they hear let’s raise a generation of liberal elitists who will look down their noses at the rest of us.

When we talk about raising the minimum wage, they hear let’s raise the price of burgers-and-fries so some acne-faced kid has enough money to buy liquor, drugs, and weed.

When we support concepts like sheltering the homeless, feeding the hungry, and caring for the sick, they hear – and they actually DO – the promotion of things that are somehow contrary to what Jesus taught.

Throughout his campaign, Trump has demonstrated his ignorance as to how our government works, how foreign policy works, and how our standing in the global community works – and he was elected by people who are just as ignorant as he is.

How do we win in future? It’s a good question. Do we try to capture the votes of the stupid, the ignorant, the ill-informed? Do we appeal to their racism, bigotry, homophobia, and xenophobia in order to win? Do we abandon our long-held principles in order to appeal to those who are dead-set against them?

It IS a good question – I wish I had a good answer.

Obama won by promising change to people who had lost their homes, lost their jobs, lost their savings, lost their sons and daughters in a senseless war. How do you win the votes of people who hear someone like Donald Trump say “change”, and assume that because things got better when Obama said it, things will get even better now that Trump has said the same thing?

It’s not the messenger, it’s the message. The Democratic message was and is the “wrong message” for those too ignorant to see facts as more important than rhetoric, for those who see the rise of bigotry and racism as a means to “making America great again”.

I, for one, will stand with the Democrats and their “wrong” message. I will stand with the party that encourages acceptance over exclusion, embraces diversity rather than demonizing it, recognizes the needs of those who have fallen on hard times, understands the importance of equality among ALL Americns, and continues to further the idea of unification over divisiveness.

I prefer to stand with those who fail by supporting what is right, than stand with those who “win” by standing up for what is wrong.

122 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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HRC/Democrats Lost Due to WRONG Message (Original Post) NanceGreggs Nov 2016 OP
Excellent post. apcalc Nov 2016 #1
That's some message!!! greytdemocrat Nov 2016 #2
it's a delusional message. as long as the left/progressives /dems ignore talk radio certainot Nov 2016 #84
Exactly, blind obedience to the same strategy that has lost ground steadily for 25 years BlueStreak Nov 2016 #120
Perfect ismnotwasm Nov 2016 #3
Not that difficult HassleCat Nov 2016 #4
And therein lies the problem. NanceGreggs Nov 2016 #10
Fantastic message, my dear Nance! CaliforniaPeggy Nov 2016 #5
The "we's" have to outnumber the "they's" for us to win oberliner Nov 2016 #6
Meh - Hillary is fine, we did nothing wrong, the country has Salem-FITS UTUSN Nov 2016 #7
Bernie would have won even though he lost, let's stop supporting civil rights, let's purge emulatorloo Nov 2016 #8
So, I'm *PURGED*!1 Oh, woe oh woe woe woah!1 n/t UTUSN Nov 2016 #68
... emulatorloo Nov 2016 #101
Just continuing the putting-words-in-the-mouth challenge!1 n/t UTUSN Nov 2016 #106
... emulatorloo Nov 2016 #107
Glad we're friendly!1 n/t UTUSN Nov 2016 #108
Me too and always! emulatorloo Nov 2016 #109
K&R sheshe2 Nov 2016 #9
KnR Hekate Nov 2016 #11
We lost because James Comey of the FBI tossed two letter bombs pnwmom Nov 2016 #12
THIS SunSeeker Nov 2016 #15
I agree that it was one of many factors ... NanceGreggs Nov 2016 #16
You're absolutely right about that, Nance. They were primed to respond pnwmom Nov 2016 #17
That certainly didn't help. InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2016 #27
1 uponit7771 Nov 2016 #35
An election against a reality TV host should never have been close enough to be decided by some Marr Nov 2016 #66
Thank you, Nance! What a fantastic piece of writing! Silver Gaia Nov 2016 #13
They can't be afraid of rapists, they elected one president! Initech Nov 2016 #14
We lost because of drivel like your post. Makes me sick to hear stuff like this. Just drivel. Red Oak Nov 2016 #18
And others simply didn't vote for the top of the ticket. potone Nov 2016 #23
That's what's bothering me about all these excuse-laden post mortems. Marr Nov 2016 #69
I disagree treestar Nov 2016 #55
I agree with this. GreenEyedLefty Nov 2016 #64
That's part of my point. NanceGreggs Nov 2016 #98
Look at the the votes for President Obama Red Oak Nov 2016 #116
Yep-- self-aggrandizing pablum. /nt Marr Nov 2016 #67
1 (well said too). nt chknltl Nov 2016 #75
Yep. Many of these "stupid," "gullible," and "ill-informed" voters chose Obama TWICE... SMC22307 Nov 2016 #91
I have examined it, JHan Nov 2016 #110
Democrats lost because jimmil Nov 2016 #19
It's not just about Bill & Hill. NanceGreggs Nov 2016 #26
Take yourself back to the primary arikara Nov 2016 #117
Ah, the old "Bernie would have won" meme. NanceGreggs Nov 2016 #119
But other Democrats have won. Obama walked into office with Republicans vowing that the only thing Exilednight Nov 2016 #122
To your point, my ex-wife's mother, a life-long DEMOCRAT, loved sayin' she would vote for Satan over Hillary! (She voted for Jill Stein.) InAbLuEsTaTe Nov 2016 #28
Clinton Fatigue played a role. I watched that PBS 'Frontline' special... SMC22307 Nov 2016 #93
Hillary won the freaking vote! edhopper Nov 2016 #20
Voting machines Bear Creek Nov 2016 #88
Don't disagree edhopper Nov 2016 #89
Hacked Bear Creek Nov 2016 #21
Agree colsohlibgal Nov 2016 #24
FFS. This election should not have been close enough for them to steal it. She was running against Chakab Nov 2016 #34
I agree Trump was the worst candidate in history. NanceGreggs Nov 2016 #118
X 1000! mntleo2 Nov 2016 #57
Post removed Post removed Nov 2016 #70
Seriously? Okay, take South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas... George II Nov 2016 #80
Right? mcar Nov 2016 #85
Hillary won the popular vote by over 2 million so far and Trump does NOT have a mandate riversedge Nov 2016 #82
Trump doesn't need a mandate EL34x4 Nov 2016 #83
We Democrats can use the popular vote to remind Republicans that Hillary riversedge Nov 2016 #86
Yay! We won a game nobody was playing! EL34x4 Nov 2016 #97
You got to be kidding Gothmog Nov 2016 #92
You did it again, great job!! George II Nov 2016 #22
Nah, the GOP will find a way to blame it on the Dems before the Dems point out it was the GOP SharonAnn Nov 2016 #29
There are people all over the country ... NanceGreggs Nov 2016 #31
Not all Trump supporters are uninformed, ignorant, inferior bigots democrank Nov 2016 #25
This isn't about ... NanceGreggs Nov 2016 #30
echo chamber much? wundermaus Nov 2016 #32
Trump supporters ... NanceGreggs Nov 2016 #33
Excellent! betsuni Nov 2016 #36
Maybe...reminds me of the shopping list of a disgruntled spouse at a marriage counseling... pipoman Nov 2016 #37
We lost ... NanceGreggs Nov 2016 #39
No, not all evidence to the contrary pipoman Nov 2016 #50
This. Eleanors38 Nov 2016 #78
A carnival barking man-child beat *the most qualified candidate for President ever*... SMC22307 Nov 2016 #94
I believe the Democratic party failed so badly because it nominated the wrong CANDIDATE.... mike_c Nov 2016 #38
Yadda yadda yadda. NanceGreggs Nov 2016 #40
keep shoving your head in the sand.... mike_c Nov 2016 #41
True. Bernie didn't lose the GE. NanceGreggs Nov 2016 #42
It could have been another candidate with strong message Kathy M Nov 2016 #44
Er, Sanders didn't even win the D primaries. He lost by millions of votes stopbush Nov 2016 #56
Because he would have relentlessly hit Trump where it hurt. SMC22307 Nov 2016 #95
Reconsider the "Sanders woulda won" myth. He would have been slaughtered. emulatorloo Nov 2016 #102
1000. Paladin Nov 2016 #103
People who picked a loser don't get to pontificate on making wise choices, sorry. Marr Nov 2016 #105
I'll pontificate all I want, thank you very much. Paladin Nov 2016 #111
Shirking the blame only assures we'll repeat this mess. Marr Nov 2016 #112
"He didn't lose the GE" mcar Nov 2016 #62
1 ..... Agree Kathy M Nov 2016 #43
You might want to read this Eichenwald piece moonscape Nov 2016 #45
Neither Clinton nor Sanders were the right candidate in hindsight. randome Nov 2016 #48
Great post melman Nov 2016 #51
1 leftstreet Nov 2016 #61
Wish I could up-vote this. Marr Nov 2016 #71
Sanders was never vetted. Trump and his people would have destroyed Bernie and Bernie beaglelover Nov 2016 #72
yes clu Nov 2016 #100
And how many here PRAYED that Trump would be the opponent? A LOT 7962 Nov 2016 #115
The great dumbing down The Wizard Nov 2016 #46
Nice! Vinnie From Indy Nov 2016 #53
K&R brer cat Nov 2016 #47
It can be very comforting quaker bill Nov 2016 #49
I share your frustration. Let us revisit a woman scorned in the recent past. I, in no way, Trust Buster Nov 2016 #52
Another great post by Nance Gothmog Nov 2016 #54
One problem. We accuse them of voting against their own interests, but so do we. brewens Nov 2016 #58
Right on the money Shoonra Nov 2016 #59
I stand with Democrats mcar Nov 2016 #60
I totally Agree, I stand with PROGRESSIVE democrats! n/t sylvanus Nov 2016 #63
No, sorry. Marr Nov 2016 #65
1 (nuff said) chknltl Nov 2016 #74
And yet enough did in 2008 and 2012. aikoaiko Nov 2016 #73
In addition to being ... NanceGreggs Nov 2016 #99
Well said!!! n/t RKP5637 Nov 2016 #76
Democrats failed to push their core values, or uphold them. backscatter712 Nov 2016 #77
What a great post superpatriotman Nov 2016 #79
Fully disagree chknltl Nov 2016 #81
Well said, Nance, as usual.. huge K&R secondwind Nov 2016 #87
America is Greater than It's Ever Been! was the WRONG message Dems to Win Nov 2016 #90
"half the people in the U.S. can't meet an unexpected 400 expense" SMC22307 Nov 2016 #96
"American politics is now a war of the intelligent v the stupid" is the wrong message. rug Nov 2016 #104
k n r! flamingdem Nov 2016 #113
When I hear "Repeal Obamacare" dickthegrouch Nov 2016 #114
I agree 200% DonCoquixote Nov 2016 #121
 

certainot

(9,090 posts)
84. it's a delusional message. as long as the left/progressives /dems ignore talk radio
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 03:41 PM
Nov 2016

they won't be able to message shit.

and we're 20 pts right because of it.

global warming wasn't enough to make the difference?

here some simple math for people who talk about messaging and framing in red states:

at a cheap $1000/hr x 15hrs/day x 1200 stations, rw talk radio is worth 4.68 BIL$/ year or 390MIL$ /month FREE for coordinated global warming denial, pro republican wall st think tank propaganda, free market deregulation bullshit, swiftboating, and the hate and fear used to get people to vote republican.

there's a reason so many people voted for an orange turd like trump. they thought a private email server and some high paid speakers fees were more important than global warming and a candidate who inherited millions and became a giant lying corrupt misogynist orange turd.

people feeling guilty because they didn't vote and helped put the orange turd in the white house and we lose at least 2 more years on global warming need to do something more productive than whine about how they didn't get to vote for their perfect candidate.

 

BlueStreak

(8,377 posts)
120. Exactly, blind obedience to the same strategy that has lost ground steadily for 25 years
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:03 PM
Nov 2016

is not exactly a winning plan.

It is the lack of a message and it is a party full of weak-kneed lackeys too timid to deliver a real message if they had one.

When Will Rogers said "i don't belong to any organized party; I'm a Democrat", that was supposed to be a joke. How are y'all liking this joke these days? It is a damned party of free-lancers, and there are only about 10 people at the national level who have the combination of brainpower and guts to actually get a real winning message across.

25 year ago, this Party decided the best bet was to become junior Republicans and basically stand for nothing anybody could recognize. And we have lost ground in the congress, in the courts, in the governors' offices, and in the state legislatures almost every cycle since then. Wake up and smell the coffee folks. DU is simply not on a winning path and will never be until people come to grips with the core problem.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
4. Not that difficult
Sat Nov 26, 2016, 11:22 PM
Nov 2016

Look at what we did when we were great, when America was great, just as that other guy admitted it was. We had big ideas, and we sold them successfully. Put someone on the moon. Big infrastructure projects. Clean up the air and water. Good public education. Civil rights. Workplace safety. War on poverty. Urban renewal. Peace Corps. And more, much more. Dare to think big.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
10. And therein lies the problem.
Sat Nov 26, 2016, 11:36 PM
Nov 2016

How do you promote "thinking big" among those who are too small-minded to admit that the earth is more than 6,000 years old?

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,308 posts)
5. Fantastic message, my dear Nance!
Sat Nov 26, 2016, 11:24 PM
Nov 2016

You got it exactly right.

I just wish there were some way we could get the scales to fall from their eyes.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
6. The "we's" have to outnumber the "they's" for us to win
Sat Nov 26, 2016, 11:26 PM
Nov 2016

And the good news is, demographics are in our favor.

If only more "we's" would move to Ohio and Florida!

emulatorloo

(43,982 posts)
8. Bernie would have won even though he lost, let's stop supporting civil rights, let's purge
Sat Nov 26, 2016, 11:34 PM
Nov 2016

the liberals from the Democratic Party. Meh.

(You put words in Nance's mouth. So I'm putting words in yours. Kinda sucks, doesn't it?)

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
12. We lost because James Comey of the FBI tossed two letter bombs
Sat Nov 26, 2016, 11:38 PM
Nov 2016

in the last days of the election. Her support plunged from an average of 9 points ahead to 2 after the first bomb. And just as it started to stabilize, he tossed the second bomb, reminding everyone that she had been under CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION and that the case could be re-opened again, if any new "pertinent" evidence was ever uncovered.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
16. I agree that it was one of many factors ...
Sat Nov 26, 2016, 11:56 PM
Nov 2016

... that went against HRC and the Dems.

But the truth is that those who were willing to hear the Democratic "message" were easily swayed away from it, given any excuse to change their minds and revert to their bigotry and hatred.

The truth-seekers stood firm with HRC despite Comey - the stupid never looked beyond his lie, and simply accepted it as a reason to vote for Trump.

pnwmom

(108,925 posts)
17. You're absolutely right about that, Nance. They were primed to respond
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 12:03 AM
Nov 2016

to those letter bombs. Very easily swayed.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
66. An election against a reality TV host should never have been close enough to be decided by some
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 01:33 PM
Nov 2016

eleventh hour political smear.

Blaming this loss on Comey's actions is like blaming the straw for breaking the camel's back.

Silver Gaia

(4,514 posts)
13. Thank you, Nance! What a fantastic piece of writing!
Sat Nov 26, 2016, 11:47 PM
Nov 2016

Your powerful words have echoed my own thoughts. I proudly stand with you and the "wrong" message.

Red Oak

(697 posts)
18. We lost because of drivel like your post. Makes me sick to hear stuff like this. Just drivel.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 12:04 AM
Nov 2016

How convenient that you are on the right side of history and just threw half of the people that voted under the bus. Good luck winning elections with your message of total superiority to the other half of people that live in the United States.

"...American politics is now a war of the intelligent v the stupid, the fact-based v the gullible, the educated v the ill-informed..."

It sounds just like the right wingers I know, but saying the same about the Democratic party.

Might I suggest talking and understanding is a better road for us. Many people, many former Democrats that voted for President Obama, turned away from the party and voted for Trump.

We need to know why and I doubt it was because they all started listening to Fox "news".

potone

(1,701 posts)
23. And others simply didn't vote for the top of the ticket.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 12:32 AM
Nov 2016

Or voted for Stein or Johnson. The fact of the matter is that this election was a giant FU to the political establishment of both parties. Trump shouldn't have had a chance: the Republican establishment didn't want him, and he had no experience. The result of this election was a FU to Washington and Wall Street on the part of people who feel betrayed by both political parties. Until the Democratic establishment is willing to take an honest look at the reasons for its failure to connect with a larger percentage of the American people, and stop demonizing those who didn't support their candidate, we are going to continue to lose. It is not the job of the populace to support any candidate, but the job of the candidate to earn the trust of the voters.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
69. That's what's bothering me about all these excuse-laden post mortems.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 01:42 PM
Nov 2016

The same people who caused this to happen are just blaming it on everyone else and lathering up their own egos, as usual.

It's not like this sentiment came out of the blue. I mean, people were fed up with the establishment 8 years ago. That's how a black man with a name that recalled both our biggest national bogeymen of the day managed to win the election. That sentiment hasn't gone away, and Obama certainly did little to address it. The pressure has only built since then, and it's bound to get worse with Trump in office.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
55. I disagree
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:05 AM
Nov 2016

These people are less intelligent and are authoritarian followers. They think we are weak. Tough talk to them is what gets their respect. Trying to understand and all that makes them sneer that we are weak.

GreenEyedLefty

(2,073 posts)
64. I agree with this.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 01:29 PM
Nov 2016

Lots of smart, educated people who voted for Obama, voted for Trump. That can't be explained away, sorry.

I suspect the reason why, had to do with being fed up with being talked about and not being talked to. Trump is a terrible person but he spoke to rural and disaffected people directly, spoke to their fears and offered a way forward. It's a bitter pill to swallow but there it is.

Until Democrats get this, it's going to be a long slog back to the White House.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
98. That's part of my point.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 06:10 PM
Nov 2016

What is the "way forward" that Trump offered?

He said he could "make all the companies that moved offshore come back". How's he going to do that? He didn't say.

Ryan and the Repubs want to throw people off of food stamps - is that a "way forward"? How about gutting Medicare, Medicaid, and privatizing SS? A "way forward"?

Trump spoke to people's fears, sure. But will his policies remove those fears, or make them worse?

Despite being an insufferable liar, there are people who believe that if Trump said something during the campaign, he meant it and will somehow follow-through on it - without ever considering that it's been proven he can't be trusted, and most of his campaign double-talk makes no sense whatsoever.

How smart can you be to look at a man who outsources his own merchandise to low-wage countries, has refused to pay his debts to workmen and business people, and used Chinese steel rather than American steel to build his hotels, and then vote for him because he's on the side of the American worker?

Red Oak

(697 posts)
116. Look at the the votes for President Obama
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 10:28 PM
Nov 2016

They voted eight years ago and then four years ago for "Hope and Change".

Many only got a short term dose of hope and very little change. The hope wore off.

There are still millions without jobs in this "recovery" and millions more that are underemployed. While Wall Street bonuses are ripping along, companies like Ford, United Technologies (Carrier), Irwin Tools and many others continue to offshore everything from air conditioners to cars to Vise-Grips.

This year these affected people voted for a orange idiot with a con job that said he would bring the jobs back. It was like voting for hope and change, but holding your nose while you did it. When the other choice is racking up $250,000 for 30 minute speeches to Wall Street, there was a trust issue, as has been widely reported. At least the con artist was saying your jobs would be coming back. Hope. Some portray it as stupidity. I just think it was hold your nose and hope.

If they don't get anything from Trump, and I really doubt they will, they will vote him out in four years. It could get ugly.

If we want to cement a win in four years we need an economic plan that is inclusive of all of our Democratic family and we need to try to actually implement parts of this if we can so we can show results in four years.

I firmly believe we also need new leadership and that Nancy Pelosi should not run the House minority. We will not win with a Pelosi, Schumer, "whoever" for President in 2020. Nancy Pelosi has too much baggage and is not a voice that will connect in PA, MI or WI. If she can't see this, it is only because of ego. Schumer is a Wall Street shill, but at least is new to many as they read the news. We'll see if he actually pushes issues that help the American people of if he just shills for his Wall Street friends. My bet is the later, under the disguise of help, such as pushing a tax "holiday" to repatriate the tax dollars companies such as Apple hold overseas but creating a "infrastructure bank" (sounds so good doesn't it?) that gets only pennies on the dollar to work "infrastructure" rather than forcing that money to come back fully taxed and using that MUCH larger amount for infrastructure. Wall Street and the Corporatists will get the major win, just like the Bush "tax cuts for the middle class".

SMC22307

(8,088 posts)
91. Yep. Many of these "stupid," "gullible," and "ill-informed" voters chose Obama TWICE...
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 04:41 PM
Nov 2016

but rejected Hillary. Many are having a hard time swallowing that, and refuse to examine the reasons why.

JHan

(10,173 posts)
110. I have examined it,
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 08:38 PM
Nov 2016

And I think if you voted for Obama and couldn't vote Hillary something doesn't compute.

- Obama took a greater haul from Wall St in 2008 - where's the fuss about it? Yet Hillary is the one in the pocket of Wall St. When did the bail out happen again?
- Hillary's platform this year was decisively more to the left than Obama's .. and yet..?
- Obama and his drone strikes - yet what again about Hillary?
- Hillary doesn't lie any less or more than Obama so we are left with what?...

What is the critical difference between the two that explains it, I genuinely want to know ( No snark here)

jimmil

(629 posts)
19. Democrats lost because
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 12:15 AM
Nov 2016

We underestimate how many people hate Hillary and Bill Clinton with every bone in their body. They will vote for anyone rather than a Clinton.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
26. It's not just about Bill & Hill.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 12:58 AM
Nov 2016

We're fighting against people who see ANY Democrat as the enemy because we stand up for the people they hate.

Could HRC have won in a landslide? Of course she could have. All she had to so was denounce a woman's right to choose, call all Muslims terrorists, advocate building a wall to keep immigrants out, agree that "illegals" are stealing American jobs, commit to overturning laws that give LBGTers equal rights, admit that those on welfare and food stamps are "lazy moochers", and vow to make "America great again" by ridding the country of every non-white, non-Fundie-Christian who refuses to believe that Adam and Eve kept dinosaurs as house pets.

Those who think that ANY Democrat could win over the STUPID are deluding themselves. The STUPID always vote Republican - the only exception being when a Republican has fucked things up so badly (think Dubya), even those heathen Democrats look good by comparison.

It's a well-worn pattern: Repub fucks up, Dem is elected to clean up the mess, voters go back to electing a Repub in the hope that THIS TIME, the Repub won't fuck up yet again.

The stupid don't see Democrats as being the better people with the better ideals - they see us as being the better cleaning crew every so many years, a necessary evil to be tolerated for the sake of being able to elect a Repub once the place looks tidy enough to survive another trashing.

arikara

(5,562 posts)
117. Take yourself back to the primary
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 10:28 PM
Nov 2016

where polls showed that Bernie would have beat Trump by 16 points and that Hillary would lose.

Without getting into whether or not it is true, Bernie supporters believe he was cheated out of the nomination. Hillary and her supporters continued beating up on Bernie people and tacking right to court the Bush people. They even said they didn't need the Bernie people.

That is why she lost the election, and that is why the democratic party lost perhaps as much as half their base. Democrats are never going to get people back if you keep calling them stupid.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
119. Ah, the old "Bernie would have won" meme.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 10:42 PM
Nov 2016

Bernie was never vetted. The Republicans said nary a word against him during the primaries, because they WANTED him to be the nominee (because they knew he'd be easier to beat in the GE than HRC).

But let's just keep pretending that Bernie - being flawless and all - would never have been targeted by the GOP, because he's never done a single thing in his life that could be used against him in a GE.

The Democrats lost perhaps as much as half their base? I'm sure you have the data to prove that, so why don't you post it?

BTW, I haven't called Democrats "stupid". You might want to actually read what I said before opining on it.

Exilednight

(9,359 posts)
122. But other Democrats have won. Obama walked into office with Republicans vowing that the only thing
Tue Nov 29, 2016, 12:41 AM
Nov 2016

On their agenda was to make him a 1 term president, and then he soundly beat them in 2012.

She had weaknesses. Republicans exposed those weaknesses. Sure, the overwhelming majority of it is BS, but it doesn't have to be true to be effective.

InAbLuEsTaTe

(24,110 posts)
28. To your point, my ex-wife's mother, a life-long DEMOCRAT, loved sayin' she would vote for Satan over Hillary! (She voted for Jill Stein.)
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 01:08 AM
Nov 2016

SMC22307

(8,088 posts)
93. Clinton Fatigue played a role. I watched that PBS 'Frontline' special...
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 04:50 PM
Nov 2016

about the two candidates. It covered, among other things, The Donald's bankruptcies and personal Wall Street bailout. It also covered the venom directed to First Lady Hillary during the *soshulized medicine* debacle. There's some serious Hillary hate out there, and I wonder how much the DNC factored that in when backing her over all others.

edhopper

(33,208 posts)
20. Hillary won the freaking vote!
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 12:18 AM
Nov 2016

Dems picked up seats in both Houses, and got more votes than the Repigs.
We lost because of voter suppression in key States.
We lost because the media thought an email nonstory was bigger than all of Trumps real scandal.
We lost because of gerrymandering.

Bear Creek

(883 posts)
88. Voting machines
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 04:28 PM
Nov 2016

The votes can be manipulated. Something should have been done about them. Instead we sat back said well Obama got in the machines must not be rigged. But as popular as he is the senate was barely and the the house just seemed to stay pretty much out of the democrats hands. He was blocked from doing anything, how convenient. Saying oh we need to make sure the polls are far enough apart is baloney. Those machines need to be abolished. The machines are manufactured and programmed by republican companies.

colsohlibgal

(5,275 posts)
24. Agree
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 12:32 AM
Nov 2016

Without a doubt Hillary won the popular vote comfortably. She "lost" because of the electoral college nonsense and apparently voting machine hanky panky.

In the end though she is the easy winner in every other country that votes.....where the person with the most votes wins....imagine that.

 

Chakab

(1,727 posts)
34. FFS. This election should not have been close enough for them to steal it. She was running against
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 01:54 AM
Nov 2016

the WORST candidate in the history of the Republic. There's no way that Trump should have gotten above the Republican floor of 33-35% who are going to side with them on every issue no matter what.

There were millions of people who voted for Obama who either stayed home or actually voted for Trump. If we don't address the problems that led to this electoral disaster, the Democrats are bound to stay in the minority especially now that the SC is going to be putting a rubber stamp on voter suppression.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
118. I agree Trump was the worst candidate in history.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 10:31 PM
Nov 2016

The problem being that Repubs don't see him that way - he's been called a "messiah" and "God's chosen", for fuck's sake.

A lot of Repubs crossed party lines to vote for Obama because they wanted "change" after the Dubya/Cheney nightmare. They'd been personally affected by that administration: they'd lost homes, lost jobs, lost savings, and lost sons and daughters in Iraq. Obama represented "change" that could lead to a better future.

As inevitably happens, once a Dem president has cleaned-up the mess made by his Republican predecessor, the GOP voters revert back to voting for "their own" - the assumption always being that the GOP candidate will continue the policies that worked for the Dem before them, but will change what they DON'T like - like advancing the rights of GLBTers, or upholding Roe v Wade.

In this instance, a lot of low-info Republican voters heard Trump say "change", and assumed he would be changing things more to their liking - e.g. overturning same-sex marriage, shutting down the "abortion mills", etc.

And as per usual, they heard NOTHING ELSE. They heard Trump say he'd "make US companies that moved offshore come back" - without explaining how he would, or could, do that. They heard him say he was standing up for the working guy, but never considered his own background of outsourcing his brand-name products to low-wage countries, or stiffing workers out of their money by refusing to pay their bills.

Trump was very good at selling himself as everything he demonstrably isn't: honest, trustworthy, on the side of the "little guy", respectful of women, respectful of veterans, respectful of the disabled, etc. And of course, his total disrespect for minorities was a "plus" in the eyes of the dumbasses who also believe that all Mexicans are rapists, all Muslims are terrorists, and "illegals" are somehow managing to steal all of those good-paying jobs that Americans need.

That's why I maintain that Republican voters are stupid. Anyone who thinks Trump is concerned about the "little guy" obviously didn't bother looking at his own behaviour - which ABSOLUTELY SCREAMS the exact opposite.

What we, as Democrats, are up against is trying to convince truly stupid, gullible people that the bullshit spewed by people like Trump has no basis in reality - keeping in mind that these are the same people who want their kids' "science" textbooks to be based on the Bible, and their "history" textbooks to say that Africans voluntarily came to the US so they could get good jobs working on plantations.

mntleo2

(2,535 posts)
57. X 1000!
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 12:40 PM
Nov 2016

It is just beyond sad to me that the Dems saw real Progressive values as a threat, they did not see them as an asset. This is because they are almost as corporatist as their opponents. Sometimes the irony to me is how they argue about trivia crap when real solutions are what we need. this tension is coming out in living color right now with the arguments about what did or did not "lose" the election (when HRC actually won. The whole electoral college thing is a prime example as they are shields against the voters because they do not trust our sensibilities.

Well now they will trust them less since almost 1/2 of the populist is low income and most are not being educated properly and it will get worse with their dummass school ideas. Worse than No Child's Behind Is Left (what Ann Richards called it), and now our kids will not have any decent edumacation.

So go ahead DNC and you clueless elites. Go look at your navels and "decide" what the problem was while ignoring the REAL facts. Gah!

Response to colsohlibgal (Reply #24)

George II

(67,782 posts)
80. Seriously? Okay, take South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas...
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 03:23 PM
Nov 2016

...out of the mix and Clinton would have won in a romp.

Last I looked at a geography book, the United States was made up of FIFTY states, not forty nine. And you might want to take a look at an Electoral Vote map of the 2016 election results.

riversedge

(69,727 posts)
82. Hillary won the popular vote by over 2 million so far and Trump does NOT have a mandate
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 03:25 PM
Nov 2016

to govern. Simple as that.

riversedge

(69,727 posts)
86. We Democrats can use the popular vote to remind Republicans that Hillary
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 04:00 PM
Nov 2016

is the peoples choice. And I hope the congressional Dems DO that. We Dems need to act like we won the popular vote (WHICH WE DID).

 

EL34x4

(2,003 posts)
97. Yay! We won a game nobody was playing!
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 06:07 PM
Nov 2016

We won California bigly! That's got to count for something, right? Do we at least get a participation trophy?

Meanwhile, Trump will act like he won the electoral college (WHICH HE DID) and start doing all that cool shit that electoral college winners get to do, like be President.

George II

(67,782 posts)
22. You did it again, great job!!
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 12:30 AM
Nov 2016

I posted somewhere today about two ultra right wing people I know (I like them personally, not politically) who have lambasted Obama and Clinton relentlessly before and after the election. They're gleefully gloating about Trump's presumed victory.

One is on permanent disability, and has been since being about 50 years old. The other has been in state/federal-sponsored alcohol rehab AND he had his house in Kenner (New Orleans suburb) totally rebuilt by FEMA.

So they both gloat about the republican "victory", not for a second thinking about the programs that THEY have profited from over the years that will be discontinued.

No more disability benefits, no more free rehabilitation, no more FEMA essentially buying new houses for (white) people. And when they get old (one is mid-fifties, the other early forties)? NO Social Security or Medicare.

Oh, they and many of the blinded racist white people who voted for republicans three weeks ago will rue they day they did so.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
31. There are people all over the country ...
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 01:28 AM
Nov 2016

... who honestly believe that when they wake up the morning after Trump's inauguration, their Muslim neighbours will be gone, they'll be promoted from janitor to CEO of the company they work for now that the illegals aren't flooding the job market, and the gold-plated billionaire who has been outsourcing American jobs for decades will miraculously re-open the factory they once worked at - the one that used to manufacture things that Trump has always had made in low-wage countries.

democrank

(11,052 posts)
25. Not all Trump supporters are uninformed, ignorant, inferior bigots
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 12:34 AM
Nov 2016

so a sermon on Democrats' superiority will get us nowhere. If you haven't done so already, you might consider listening to Van Jones' recent speech in Toronto, which was down-to-earth and full of wisdom. Jones has a lot less respect for elites than he has for desperate, struggling, sick-and-out-of-work coal miners. So do I.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
30. This isn't about ...
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 01:11 AM
Nov 2016

... "Democratic superiority". It's about the fact that Republicans always look superior to the the stupid, the ignorant, and the ill-informed.

The Democrats stand up for raising the minimum wage, making healthcare affordable, and putting a college education within reach for those who want it - yeah, that sure is some elitist shit going on right there now.

wundermaus

(1,673 posts)
32. echo chamber much?
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 01:48 AM
Nov 2016

Could it be possible that it was a vote of no confidence in politics as usual?

Bernie Sanders on how Donald Trump won presidency -

betsuni

(25,136 posts)
36. Excellent!
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 02:18 AM
Nov 2016

On the news I saw a reporter at a Black Friday sale say that the most popular item was TVs, that everyone she spoke to was buying a TV. This depressed me. I watch TV, have nothing against TV, but in the States it's ... diabolical, full of propaganda disguised as news, conflict, always conflict, slick noisy advertising, repetition.

At least the Fox News/right-wing media used to be confined to Republicans pretty much, but it infected the media in general, and the anti-American "alt-left" or whatever the hell they are took right-wing stuff and modified it for a new audience, spamming social media until the brainwashing affected greater numbers than ever before. You can't turn around without bumping into someone who instantly and mindlessly repeats lies about how terrible Obama/Clinton/Democrats/liberals/coastal elites, etc., are. It's a cult, dammit.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
37. Maybe...reminds me of the shopping list of a disgruntled spouse at a marriage counseling...
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 02:34 AM
Nov 2016

unable to see their own role in the broken relationship. I consider the massive national losses of our party the evidence of a sorely broken relationship with our base.

The war between Democrats and Republicans used to be about common goals, the difference between the two parties being how best to achieve them. For decades, this has no longer been the case.

Because the Democratic party abandoned labor....labor used to be the Democratic base.

We are fighting against people who will never accept what we Democrats stand for

Some Democrats demand a tiny party... intolerance for labor...particularly white labor is dumb and cost us the presidency and virtually everything else.

We lost when the Democratic party supported job killing trade agreements against the wishes of literally 80% of US labor....they went agaist the largest segment of our base and we are scratching our heads over this national loss?

Pretending Democratic party politics isn't to blame for our own massive losses insures more of the same.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
39. We lost ...
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 02:41 AM
Nov 2016

... when voters decided hat Trump was the champion of the working-class - ALL evidence to the contrary.

 

pipoman

(16,038 posts)
50. No, not all evidence to the contrary
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 08:56 AM
Nov 2016

The Democratic party abandoned the working class....Trymp capitalized on that failure of the Democratic party. If it wasn't for the party support for unfair trade agreements...if the party had supported its base on this....we wouldn't be talking now.

SMC22307

(8,088 posts)
94. A carnival barking man-child beat *the most qualified candidate for President ever*...
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 05:00 PM
Nov 2016

because of the very reasons you list.

The Circle D New Democratic Party needs to WTF up.

mike_c

(36,214 posts)
38. I believe the Democratic party failed so badly because it nominated the wrong CANDIDATE....
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 02:34 AM
Nov 2016

I held my tongue after the primaries because thems were the rules, and I didn't go sulk on other forums, but I always believed that a Clinton nomination would guarantee a Trump victory. Americans desperately wanted a populist candidate, and the two strongest populists were Trump and Senator Sanders. Senator Clinton was the ultimate establishment insider, about as far from what the electorate wanted as could be found. Frankly, I'm surprised she did as well as she did, barely winning the popular vote and perhaps setting the stage for a horribly devisive electoral college upset. She was the worst possible democratic candidate in this electoral context. If dems cannot bring themselves to understand this, they are doomed to irrelevance, or at best the fickle election year pendulum swing of voter discontent.

Clinton loyalists can moan and groan about her winning the popular vote, or being sabotaged by the FBI director all they want, or whatever, but they cannot paper over her failure to decisively defeat one of the least qualified and worst opposition candidates in U.S. history. Clinton was the wrong democratic candidate, plainly and simply.

The DNC utterly owns this disaster, or at least they share ownership with Senator Clinton herself. The DNC subverted the primaries to insure a Clinton nomination, because it was somehow "her turn." Senator Bernie Sanders was filling sports arenas while Clinton was hosting $5000 per plate dinners for a few score "party elites" and the other candidates were speechifying at bus stops. Sanders would have crushed Trump. Folks who cannot allow themselves to understand that will ultimately destroy the Democratic party, IMO. Obama's primary victory over Clinton in 2008 reflected the same electoral discontent with establishment candidates. The DNC's insistence upon anointing HRC in 2016 was utterly tone deaf.

I hope Debbie Wasserman Schultz gets a good job in the Trump administration. She earned it.

mike_c

(36,214 posts)
41. keep shoving your head in the sand....
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 02:59 AM
Nov 2016

At least it's consistent. But here's the thing-- "Yada Yada, yada," whatever, Clinton was an awful candidate for this election cycle. If you think otherwise then I'll leave you to your fantasies. Make light of Sander's candidacy all you like, but he didn't lose the GE.

I hope you will give some consideration to what actually happened. Americans elected-- or nearly elected, if you prefer-- someone utterly unfit for office and largely rejected the DNC's choice of whose "turn" it was to be president. Talk about the wrong message! That the party establishment knew better than the electorate who should best represent their interests. Sheesh.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
42. True. Bernie didn't lose the GE.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 03:05 AM
Nov 2016

He also never ran a GE campaign. But let's all pretend that he did, and that he won.

Kathy M

(1,242 posts)
44. It could have been another candidate with strong message
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 03:40 AM
Nov 2016

Just not another Clinton or Bush ya know dynasties ............

stopbush

(24,378 posts)
56. Er, Sanders didn't even win the D primaries. He lost by millions of votes
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:24 AM
Nov 2016

to Hillary.

Why would anyone think he could have won the GE?

SMC22307

(8,088 posts)
95. Because he would have relentlessly hit Trump where it hurt.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 05:17 PM
Nov 2016

Bankruptcies. Personal Wall Street bailout. Lay-offs. Shafting contractors.

Between the two, Americans would have trusted Bernie over Trump (and the Republicans) on protecting Social Security and Medicare.

Bernie would have exposed Trump's hypocrisy on trade (e.g., his crap ties made in Bangladesh). And the *cheap Mexican labor* renovating Trump's DC acquisition, the Old Post Office Pavilion.

As we watched during the debates, Trump nailed Hillary on Iraq and her Middle East policy as SoS. He wouldn't have had that ammo against Bernie.

The Sanders campaign would have been ruthless in making sure Americans fully understood Trump's role in the Central Park Five, and his refusal to rent properties to blacks. Bernie dragged away in handcuffs at a civil rights protest v. Hillary's "super-predator" remark. More ammo against Hillary, but not against Bernie.

Those are just some examples off the top of my head.

Yeah, yeah, Trump could have targeted Bernie on some stupid essay he wrote as a college student, plus jumping from job to job as a young man... OUCH!

emulatorloo

(43,982 posts)
102. Reconsider the "Sanders woulda won" myth. He would have been slaughtered.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 06:59 PM
Nov 2016

The article summarizes the two foot stack of oppo reasearch Repubs had on your and my primary choice, Bernie Sanders.


THE MYTHS DEMOCRATS SWALLOWED THAT COST THEM THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION
BY KURT EICHENWALD ON 11/14/16

http://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-democrats-presidential-election-521044

1. The Myth of the All-Powerful Democratic National Committee
2. The Myth That Sanders Would Have Won Against Trump

Paladin

(28,204 posts)
103. 1000.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 07:08 PM
Nov 2016

Jeez, am I ever sick of the Bernie worshippers. The fact remains, and will ever so remain, that Hillary Clinton was an infinitely better candidate than Donald Trump ever dreamed of being. It will be a cold day in hell before I ever regret my support for the Clinton campaign. The fact that Clinton may have come up short against Trump indicates what a sad state this nation is in. If Sanders had been the Democratic candidate, Trump would have mopped up the floor with him, and the commentary would have written itself: Democrats, what the fuck were you thinking? You had a sharp, experienced candidate like Hillary, and you went for Bernie instead?

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
105. People who picked a loser don't get to pontificate on making wise choices, sorry.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 07:44 PM
Nov 2016

Who cares if you're sick of the people who thought Bernie was a better choice. Your choice lost to a reality TV show host.

Paladin

(28,204 posts)
111. I'll pontificate all I want, thank you very much.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 09:07 PM
Nov 2016

If you don't like it, put me on full ignore and be done with it.

And oh, by the way: Hillary would have prevailed over the reality TV show host, if Bernie and his acolytes hadn't fragmented the party so badly. And Bernie never even joined the party---he just used it for his own purposes. To hell with him, and his followers.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
112. Shirking the blame only assures we'll repeat this mess.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 09:33 PM
Nov 2016

The data doesn't back up your claim that Sanders supporters cost Clinton the election. Just wanting a thing to be doesn't make it so. You should have learned that on election night.

mcar

(42,210 posts)
62. "He didn't lose the GE"
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 01:02 PM
Nov 2016

Because he lost the primary. By 4 million votes. And he hadn't even been vetted yet.

moonscape

(4,664 posts)
45. You might want to read this Eichenwald piece
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 03:56 AM
Nov 2016

which does a nice job of debunking much of the DNC stuff. It's interesting. He made me see some things in a different light: debate schedule (addresses it comparatively) and hacked emails (dated after Bernie had any chance of winning.) There's more. Worth the read.

http://www.newsweek.com/myths-cost-democrats-presidential-election-521044

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
48. Neither Clinton nor Sanders were the right candidate in hindsight.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 07:30 AM
Nov 2016

Sanders is still mired in 20th century thinking that manufacturing jobs can be recreated out of thin air. Clinton made her own missteps.

We are not going to inspire the Millennials the way Obama did until we stop nominating 70-year-olds to run our country. The GOP can get away with that because their mindset is firmly in the past. Democrats should not follow that example.

It's time for new blood across the board, imo. Anyone who's been in Congress more than a decade should be considering finding another job. We need the same kind of youthful energy and charisma that Obama gave us a taste of.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
71. Wish I could up-vote this.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 01:53 PM
Nov 2016

You're correct all around. The OP is doing nothing by making self-aggrandizing excuses.

Unfortunately, if you try to make an OP with this opinion, it will be hidden. Excuses and dissembling are the order of the day.

beaglelover

(3,441 posts)
72. Sanders was never vetted. Trump and his people would have destroyed Bernie and Bernie
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 02:05 PM
Nov 2016

would have lost the popular vote AND the electoral college. The truth is that Comey DID impact the outcome of this election. Hillary was on a major trajectory towards the win until he made his announcement and the follow up 'fake news' about the impending indictment against the Clinton Foundation did not help either. And it IS very important to keep pointing out that Hillary won the popular vote by over 2 million votes. The people did not elect Trump, some archaic relic of history elected Trump. #notmypresident!

 

clu

(494 posts)
100. yes
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 06:28 PM
Nov 2016

100% correct.... after skimming the replies to this - dismissive of sanders - he would have done a lot better if the DNC had supported him. seeing Barbara Boxer chiming the Nevada dem primaries with messages of "try to stay positive" made me lol. the DNC lost this election by supporting another centrist candidate (just like Obama in 2008 - I voted for Kucinich). sure Obama was better than the prior republican president, but watching his tone change about a public healthcare option over the course of three state of the union addresses let me know where centrist presidents really stand.

argue all you want about Kucinich not being electable but sanders had a strong message and could articulate it. I hope the voting public remembers this taste in their mouth. I read some article that compared the democratic voter turnout for this election vs Obama 1 and Obama 2 and it looked pretty dismal. let's get new progressive representation in congress and find a good candidate for 2020.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
115. And how many here PRAYED that Trump would be the opponent? A LOT
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 10:19 PM
Nov 2016

Hell, i though HRC would win easily because trump was such a tool, but whether people on DU like it or not, the 2 LEAST LIKED candidates were running & one got his people more excited than the other.
Now I'm reading OP after OP about how to stop him from taking office. Here in GA, Electors are getting death threats to change their trump votes to clinton. This is what level we go to because we didnt take him seriously? My fault too, because I NEVER thought he'd win

The Wizard

(12,482 posts)
46. The great dumbing down
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 06:44 AM
Nov 2016

began with George Wallace depicting the educated as "pointy headed liberals in their ivory towers" in contrast to the uneducated pointy hooded violent bigots that elected him. You know, the ones who think their ignorance is equal to another person's intelligence.
Around the same time, Vice President Spiro Agnew (resigned his office in disgrace lest anyone forget) was calling the educated "effete snobs" This put the uneducated at odds with those who took the time and effort to expand their minds pursuing a formal education. Thus began the division fostered by Republican strategists. Education was being vilified for cheap political gain.
Then Reagan came along and implied that ignorance was equal to knowledge. His economic policies led to the demise of the middle class and made getting a formal education far more difficult. Of course Reagan was an unwitting front man for the Bush cartel that is now trying to privatized education so as to capitalize on education for profit, damn the public schools.
Then along came George W. Bush, the bumbling coke addled, alcohol fueled folksy buffoon who made ignorance an endearing quality. Remember uneducated people supporting him because they felt like having a beer with him. We know how that turned out. His theft of the presidency was the reason this web site came about. Ignorance equals intelligence became the unofficial policy. George Orwell warned us.
Without critical thinking skills the victims of this chicanery are more susceptible to the propaganda set upon them by the likes of a Republican propaganda operation that would embarrass Goebbels while at the same time making Pravda, TAAS and Izvestia green with envy. Pox (deliberate typo) News and hate radio have turned vulnerable minds into putty in the hands of some of the most venal shysters in our history.
As the rest of civilization is offering tuition free college so as to compete in a global economy, the United States is putting higher education farther out of reach, and this is by design. We are moving closer to a two tiered system of lords and serfs with large corporations bribing legislators to get laws in place that ensure a permanent underpaid strata that keeps the wealthy elites in the chips at the expense of those forced to work longer hours to stay above water.
And now for the coup de grace on the middle class, Donald Trump, a man who represents all that is wrong. It seems as though the trickster Satan has intervened and duped enough people into willingly forge the chains for their own enslavement. Former Soviet Prime Minister Khrushchev said "We will bury you." Little did we realize that the former head of the KGB would be handing the shovels to America's biggest charlatan con artist. Dasvidaniya middle class. Hello feudalism.

quaker bill

(8,223 posts)
49. It can be very comforting
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 08:42 AM
Nov 2016

To determine that we lost because the other side is stupid. I have been at the meetings of long and failed campaigns to prevent wars, fix environmental issues, organize a third party, elect candidates, and more. They almost always feature a speaker who says "we lost because the other side is too stupid". These speakers are always warmly received.

While I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, this stuff will take us precisely nowhere. I can assure you this because I have been at now nearly countless meetings where this has been said and nothing has ever come of it.

I believe that the Country has more than its fair ration of racists, xenophobes, misogynists, homophobes, and more. I do not believe it has more of them now than it had in 2008. That said DJT was clearly better than average at getting them to vote.

This aside, I do not think it was just the message. It is clearly also the messenger. The hacked internal messages from the Podesta account clearly point out their own concerns about Sec. Clinton's lack of strength as a messenger before things even started.

Barack did not say things that were all that different from Sec. Clinton, but you are correct, people believed it. That is a distinction of messenger, not message.

We also have to understand that context is crucial. The messenger / message that was right in 2008 is not the same in 2012 or 2016. I think Hillary was a perfectly fine candidate, who would have made a reasonably good President, and who ran a reasonably good campaign. It was just the wrong election for it, context is crucial.



 

Trust Buster

(7,299 posts)
52. I share your frustration. Let us revisit a woman scorned in the recent past. I, in no way,
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 09:53 AM
Nov 2016

appreciate the behavior of Susan Sarandon during the election. But, she might have touched on the only answer to this conundrum. Perhaps we must stand back and let the Republicans destroy everything until the other half of this country will wake the hell up.

brewens

(13,400 posts)
58. One problem. We accuse them of voting against their own interests, but so do we.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 12:54 PM
Nov 2016

Obama had the best chance to really do something for us. Going after the banksters right at the start of his administration would have been the best move. He would have even had support from many of the people that voted for Trump this time around. Going after them and making some real reforms while the markets were still down would have been the time. He played everything to build the markets up and avoid spooking them after that.

If you remember what the Tea Party was all about right at the start, and I mean the first couple of weeks, it was all about rage over the TARP bailouts. Having been left to follow it's own course, that could have ended up in protests on Wall Street. It would have been quite a mixture of both liberals and conservatives up in arms over that bullshit too. The right couldn't let that happen, that's why they were so quick to move in a co-opt the movement. The next thing you knew, we had Dick freakin' Armey running something called Freedomworks! Then the Koch brothers in the middle of it and FOX "News" even organizing and running their events. They turned it into a huge promotion for right-wing Republicans.

With Obama, we thought we were voting for our best interests and it didn't turn out that way, at least nowhere near what it could have been. I think these Trump voters will find out they made the same mistake. My main issue is stopping the looting at the top. I'm not really going to give a shit about much else. I doubt Hillary would have done much in that area either.

Shoonra

(518 posts)
59. Right on the money
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 12:55 PM
Nov 2016

Now the big problem:
How are the Democrats going to package their campaign in the future to make it palatable??

I might add one small item to the series listed:
HRC talked about ending the coal mining industry. Twenty thousand miners hate their jobs, hope their kids never have to go into the mines, but hope and pray that they can continue to get a paycheck at it for at least four more years. Pretty much the same with all the polluting industries. And all the industries that are endangering wildlife or the natural balance - just a few more years of paychecks please.

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
65. No, sorry.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 01:31 PM
Nov 2016

Last edited Sun Nov 27, 2016, 04:03 PM - Edit history (1)

Hillary Clinton didn't lose because she stood up for all this it is noble, and the people are just a bunch of unworthy, ignoble bigots.

She lost because she was the ultimate symbol of the political establishment and a status quo that has ground the average working class person under it's heel for the last 30 years. She lost because, no matter what she said, her 'message' was already written in 20 years of policy that has ignored regular people and serviced the wealthy class. People were obviously sick of it eight years ago when Obama won on 'Hope', and vague promises that he would fight this rigged system. They're even more sick of it today.

Donald Trump didn't really win this election, so much as Hillary Clinton lost it. And that loss was a giant middle finger from the working class generally, and a vote of no confidence in a self-serving political establishment.

NanceGreggs

(27,813 posts)
99. In addition to being ...
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 06:21 PM
Nov 2016

... an exceptional politician (and human being), Obama ran after the country had just survived eight disastrous years of Dubya. Voting for "change" then was a winning strategy that appealed to the majority of the citizenry.

We have just come off eight years of improvement in all sectors - unemployment is down, the stock market is up, etc.

Those who just voted for "change" again are about to get that change - I don't think they're going to like it.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
77. Democrats failed to push their core values, or uphold them.
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 03:10 PM
Nov 2016

Where was Obama and Hillary when Standing Rock became a thing? Oh yeah, ignoring it, hoping it would go away.

The Democratic Party is supposed to be for the little guys, the underdogs, and they've utterly failed at doing enough for them. Instead of standing up for the little guy, they spent the last two years mostly focused solely on getting Democratic politicians elected, on the platform of "We suck less than those mean Republicans."

That's why we lost.

Push the values, uphold the values, and we win. Shunt them aside to play footsie with the corporations and billionaires that write big checks, and we lose.

superpatriotman

(6,232 posts)
79. What a great post
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 03:22 PM
Nov 2016

We need to hire new messengers - the right did to great effect - and take back the message.

chknltl

(10,558 posts)
81. Fully disagree
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 03:24 PM
Nov 2016

First off i know folks, some of them freinds who voted for President Obama both times but voted this time for Trump.

I am disgusted with you Nance for lumping them in with all those horid dolks you listed.

If any of these freinds of mine read your post they would have some mighty unkind things to say about YOUR character and you know what? I'd be hard pressed to even try to convince them otherwise.

My freinds wanted change....instead they felt like they got politics as usual with President Obama. They won't get what they want out of a President Trump either but time will be the proof of that thatfor them.

I suppose you in your grand wisdom think it wise to keep folks like my freinds away from voting Democrat in the next election because THAT is EXACTLY what you do with posts like this.

 

Dems to Win

(2,161 posts)
90. America is Greater than It's Ever Been! was the WRONG message
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 04:41 PM
Nov 2016

when half the people in the U.S. can't meet an unexpected $400 expense in the richest country on Earth.

Democratic leaders sounded tone deaf and divorced from the very real struggles of ordinary Americans.

I'd rather look seriously at what has gone wrong with our party, rather than patting myself on the back and saying I'm right, it's just those bad people don't recognize it.

SMC22307

(8,088 posts)
96. "half the people in the U.S. can't meet an unexpected 400 expense"
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 05:30 PM
Nov 2016

That is a great point. Another is how so many are lacking adequate retirement savings:

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/09/12/heres-how-much-the-average-american-family-has-saved-for-retirement.html

If people can't afford to pay cash for something like a new dishwasher and expect to work 'til the grave, they're going to overlook p*ssy comments.

dickthegrouch

(3,151 posts)
114. When I hear "Repeal Obamacare"
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 09:55 PM
Nov 2016

I hear a self-appointed "death panel" of one.
Let's tell them the rest of their message in no uncertain terms, too.

DonCoquixote

(13,615 posts)
121. I agree 200%
Sun Nov 27, 2016, 11:05 PM
Nov 2016

However, I will say that after all these " lost games", so to speak, require new coaches. I already have two hides so i won't say the names, but the truth is, no management team would have lost so much, so badly, then act so righteous.

We need a full 50 state strategy, and i do not care if Dean, or whoever, does it, we need one. We need to mobilize the jim hightowers and yes, the Michael Moores, who can speak to the working class.

We need to form a team that does NOT repeat past mistakes, that stops the bleeding of congess, governors and others that led us to this place. The numbers do not lie.

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