If you are against porn, you are anti-woman

these pro and anti porn arguments are becoming equally lame. i might even say that this particular pro porn arguments is lamer than the usual anti-porn arguments. didn't think that was even possible

Give me a reason why my argument is lame, if you could

sloooowly.....

but I don't think anybody is going to believe that you have a ten foot pole to touch this with.

:0

Because obviously logic loses when snark takes place!

But it's hard to conceal your beliefs.

Sorry.

...others who are not mature enough sexually it can be harmful in ways. I would not ban it.

... any movie? Many movies are filled with 99th percentile in the looks department people. How is porn different?

It isn't.

Face it, sex in most porn is "idealized" to the male point of view, since males make up 99% of their audience. Only a moron would think that most porn is realistic in any way, any more than any other kind of film is actually realistic. It is FANTASY, like Lord of the Rings or Star Wars. It is not real, and everyone knows it.

These sorts of arguments are really lame, they act as though viewers of pornography are idiots. It's really the other way around.

...issues. I am not saying stop porn.

2 people going for it for fun and recording versus unwilling participants who are in it for desperate reasons or being abused in the process. I can watch numerous other animals making it on PBS every week but nobody screams porn about that.

But if there is a problem with abuse, it's the ABUSE that's the problem

There is a lot of ignorance and misunderstanding surrounding porn. But I believe those against porn have their hearts in the right place. They just don't know what the hell they're talking about.

Hating ourselves, hating our bodies, hating our genitalia.

Consider how many religions have pushed a "virgin birth" (it's not just Christianity)

This is a hatred of women

They hate the fact that a woman can pleasure herself and have no need of a man

They hate the fact that a man can pleasure himself and have no need of a woman

I just know that I experience a little cognitive dissonance every time I enjoy some good porn because I know while I like it very much, I wouldn't want my daughter anywhere near that profession. Hypocrisy? Maybe.

If I had a kid (boy or girl) I really wouldn't want them to become a tightrope walker because I'd be so afraid of what might happen to them.

But I wouldn't be ashamed to watch someone else walk a tightrope.

Maybe that's relevant, maybe not.

Food for thought.

maybe? honest anyway. nor would most all fathers. and then there are the few that would cheer the daughter on..... meh

who might participate. And now we've devolved into tragic, abusive, pornography.

Another angle, what if your daughter just really enjoys sex, isn't in porn, but beds a different guy every night, and loves it. Then what? Is that okay? Or is it truly that you think your daughter shouldn't enjoy sex more than "society" allows for women?

As for my daughter enjoying sex, I'm going to let her enjoy her childhood first. She's 12 and I'm not quite ready to think about her "bedding a different guy every night." You see, her mother and I both really enjoy sex, but each of us have only had one other partner. So I don't necessarily see the connection between really enjoying sex and bedding a different partner every night. So no, I guess that's not okay with me. But that has little to do with porn, IMO.

rather than allowing her to enjoy sex on her terms.

Again, if it were your son, would being "a stud" bother you as much as having "a slut" for a daughter? Or conversely, and hopefully, would you be equally proud of both for allowing themselves sexual freedom.

She's 12? Most girls from the studies I've read are already sexually active at that age, don't think about it too much longer. I hear they have all decided that oral and anal isn't really sex, so they seem to have a lot of that in those younger years. Good luck!

but do you have children?

And get in regular arguments with my son about her sexual preferences because he's quite a sexist when it comes to sex.

I never enjoyed sex. She does. That's great. Whatever she's doing, it's working for her, wish I had been able to relax enough about sex to do the same. Glad I was able to end a family legacy of women never being sexually satisfied.

Both are grown.

You know nothing about sadbear's daughter, or him it appears, and yet you school him in sexual parenting? It is obvious that the subject makes you angry. I'm sure you have your reasons but it's no excuse to jump all over a man who seems to be rather reasonable.

From the little he has said, it sounds like he and his wife will do better than most parents. The fact that they enjoy sex so much and are not ashamed by it says a lot. And since there is a mother involved I would guess their daughter stands a pretty good chance of having healthy sexual experiences as well (without necessarily bedding a new man every night). Can't you congratulate him on what actually is a pretty open mind?

But people are compelled to work in that industry because they need the money and waitressing doesn't cut it.

It's the worst kind of exploitation, where the person's body is the actual commodity.

I was a bouncer in a nightclub.

I made big money. I needed it. I was exploited nightly for my physical gifts and a penchant for counterpunching rather well.

I believe facing mutilation and blunt force trauma (or worse) is the worst type of exploitation.

YMMV.

A lot of jobs don't cut it. Porn is one option for some people (very few, when you count them all up). The drug trade is an option for others. And bouncing nightclubs, and delivering pizzas, and whatever the hell else.

That's the not the fault of porn. The fault lies with the fact that it's tough to make a decent living in the service industry. Your post seems like more of an indictment of the service industry than the porn industry.

Partly because of the history of exploitation in the sex industry. Partly because of the history of a male dominant world in general.

Partly just imagine being out of money with no real options and being compelled to have sex for money despite not wanting to. The same is true for pizza delivery I guess, but I just think this is something that nobody should have to do, because sex is different than delivering pizza somehow, or different than being a stripper even. It just violates more.

I'm not suggesting to outlaw it. But I don't see any reason to celebrate the porn industry without thinking about this other side of the equation.

What you said I agree with, people should be able to make a decent living without resorting to porn.

Child abuse, and a few other things, including slavery are part of well porn.

Now if you mean movies, as long as people follow safe practices and are willing adults...

REALITY is actually somewhere in the MIDDLE

Is where most of DU falls. Just wanted to tag this for easy reference. Good luck!

I kept reading that line, thinking I must be missing something quite deep, until I figured out that you probably meant the HOF group on DU.

I wrote, thought, "is that right?", and promptly convinced myself it was. Should have checked.

no one wants to take your pron away, Taverner. settle down, plug in that DVD and enjoy, no one cares.

It's not going to happen.

so the poor thing can get fed once in a while.

KEEP IT DOWN YOU PERV!

o, I didn't want to go there! bleach please!

Would disappear completely.

Are you against women, if there are no women in the film/dvd/photo?

I'll see if I can find the post.

edit: Found it. Decided not to post a link because it's not fair to poke fun at the mentally ill, and the offender is TS'd anyhow.

but, maybe not.

I had forgot who made them and now I wish I hadn't brought them up, because I suspect mental illness.

You ask a good question but no one is going to answer it

and it kinda goes haywire. Come to think about it.. there is a woman (or several women, depending on the video) in CFNM..

Oh well, I better stop asking stuff, before rule 34 kicks in, and all the addendum that go with it.

individuals do with other individuals, in most cases. It's not something that most people do so others can watch. That's something else...

I'm ambivalent about pornography. I don't use it, myself, so I don't have enough direct information about what it represents, in general, to make broad statements about it.

Yours is a very broad statement. It's also very likely to be incorrect in some ways, as are most generalizations.

However, if your goal was to provoke, I'm sure you'll succeed. But, what's the point of that, really?

Porn is only wrong in that it doesn't accurately reflect healthy sexual relationships.

It isn't wrong because it shows sex, or because it shows sex explicitly. It is wrong because it shows a distorted view of sex predicated on male fantasies of female sexuality that have no basis in actual sexual reality, at least for most of the population. It does serve to stimulate men in a visual way as a tool for masturbation. It is wrong because the sex shown is essentially unreal, and exploitative of women as objects rather than persons.

Then there is the problem with the industry itself, and the exploitation of the actresses that work in it. Many of them have emotional and/or substance abuse, or financial difficulties that lead them into this profession.

What I find on DU, repeatedly, is the insistence by male posters that to be anti-porn is to be anti-sex, when in fact to be anti-porn, in most instances, it to be anti-fake-sex and anti-real emotional relationship with another human being.

Speaking as a male poster.

I've seen documentaries of women in the porn business. It is without a doubt a sad way for a woman to earn a living, from a woman's point of view.

Women don't get rich in porn. They don't expand their minds, become more valuable to society. Their porn work is not celebrated upon their death.

Women don't get into porn by design. It's because that's what left to them after failing at something else, or because they're troubled, or even because they were kidnapped and enslaved.

Porn involves not just women, but children, both female and male.

You are sorely lacking in knowledge about the porn business and what it does to its victims: the people who sell, or are forced to sell, visuals of their body parts.

It's all about getting money from men based on their love of visuals of gentialia of women and children.

partners - they film themselves and put them on the internet.

They are pornographic in that they are explicit, but these are committed couples doing this from the comfort of their own home.

Is this any different?

not exist.

Any business that includes trafficking in child abuse and making money from it...that says something about that business. And it is a business. It caters to men, mainly.

Consider that most criminals, esp. murderers, and esp. serial killers, are avid porn users, and you get an idea of where porn can lead.

Not that most people who watch or read porn end up killing people. It's just that most people who murder people or sexually assault people are avid watchers/readers of it. That, too, tells you something about that business. And it is a BUSINESS that makes money off from exploiting women's and children's body parts.

As Ted Bundy put it:
Ted: Before we go any further, it is important to me that people believe what I'm saying. I'm not blaming pornography. I'm not saying it caused me to go out and do certain things. I take full responsibility for all the things that I've done. That's not the question here. The issue is how this kind of literature contributed and helped mold and shape the kinds of violent behavior.

JCD: It fueled your fantasies.

Ted: In the beginning, it fuels this kind of thought process. Then, at a certain time, it is instrumental in crystallizing it, making it into something that is almost a separate entity inside.

JCD: You had gone about as far as you could go in your own fantasy life, with printed material, photos, videos, etc., and then there was the urge to take that step over to a physical event.
Like an addiction, you keep craving something which is harder and gives you a greater sense of excitement, until you reach the point where the pornography only goes so far.

Ted: Once you become addicted to it, and I look at this as a kind of addiction, you look for more potent, more explicit, more graphic kinds of material. Like an addiction, you keep craving something which is harder and gives you a greater sense of excitement, until you reach the point where the pornography only goes so far - that jumping off point where you begin to think maybe actually doing it will give you that which is just beyond reading about it and looking at it.

JCD: How long did you stay at that point before you actually assaulted someone?

Ted: A couple of years. I was dealing with very strong inhibitions against criminal and violent behavior. That had been conditioned and bred into me from my neighborhood, environment, church, and schools.
I knew it was wrong to think about it, and certainly, to do it was wrong. I was on the edge, and the last vestiges of restraint were being tested constantly, and assailed through the kind of fantasy life that was fueled, largely, by pornography.

JCD: Do you remember what pushed you over that edge? Do you remember the decision to "go for it"? Do you remember where you decided to throw caution to the wind?

Ted: It's a very difficult thing to describe - the sensation of reaching that point where I knew I couldn't control it anymore. The barriers I had learned as a child were not enough to hold me back from seeking out and harming somebody.

JCD: Would it be accurate to call that a sexual frenzy?

Ted: That's one way to describe it - a compulsion, a building up of this destructive energy. Another fact I haven't mentioned is the use of alcohol. In conjunction with my exposure to pornography, alcohol reduced my inhibitions and pornography eroded them further.

JCD: After you committed your first murder, what was the emotional effect? What happened in the days after that?

Ted: Even all these years later, it is difficult to talk about. Reliving it through talking about it is difficult to say the least, but I want you to understand what happened. It was like coming out of some horrible trance or dream. I can only liken it to (and I don't want to overdramatize it) being possessed by something so awful and alien, and the next morning waking up and remembering what happened and realizing that in the eyes of the law, and certainly in the eyes of God, you're responsible. To wake up in the morning and realize what I had done with a clear mind, with all my essential moral and ethical feelings intact, absolutely horrified me.

JCD: You hadn't known you were capable of that before?

Ted: There is no way to describe the brutal urge to do that, and once it has been satisfied, or spent, and that energy level recedes, I became myself again. Basically, I was a normal person.
I was a normal person. I had good friends. I led a normal life, except for this one, small but very potent and destructive segment that I kept very secret and close to myself.

Ted: I wasn't some guy hanging out in bars, or a bum. I wasn't a pervert in the sense that people look at somebody and say, "I know there's something wrong with him." I was a normal person. I had good friends. I led a normal life, except for this one, small but very potent and destructive segment that I kept very secret and close to myself. Those of us who have been so influenced by violence in the media, particularly pornographic violence, are not some kind of inherent monsters. We are your sons and husbands. We grew up in regular families. Pornography can reach in and snatch a kid out of any house today. It snatched me out of my home 20 or 30 years ago. As diligent as my parents were, and they were diligent in protecting their children, and as good a Christian home as we had, there is no protection against the kinds of influences that are loose in a society that tolerates....

http://www.tldm.org/news6/bundy.htm

Every second, a child or woman in the U.S. is sexually assaulted. It's usu. done by a man who frequently views porn.

And the target market consists of people who don't want to look at naked women AT ALL.

Your argument is ignorant at best.

that you would use Bundy for an argument against porn.

If what you posit here was correct, there would be MILLIONS of bundys out there.

There most certainly are not.

Bundy was a sexual psychopath. Because he blamed porn for his psychopathology matters not one whit in the real world.

Your last sentence is patently false.

It would be more truthful to say that most people who sexually assault others drink alcohol.

Almost all of them have driver's licenses. Many have pets.

See?? Anyone can play!!

The experience of humans on this planet is extremely varied and rich and complex.

You cannot see that.

Your logic is false, and your "if A then B" statements are extremely narrow.

I think you are making excuses for yourself, because you cannot appreciate the opinions of others.

Spice up your conversation a bit. And your life. Read a book with words that have more than 4 letters that is not about porn or sex.

Then tell us all about it. Because that might be interesting. Other people's sex lives? Pure snooze fest. Just like other people's respiratory rates and bathroom habits.

For one thing, some porn features only men. So if I don't like it, I'm anti-woman?

Some porn is lovely. Some is dag-nasty. It's kind of subjective.

But for sure some of it objectifies the crap out of women, and denies their desire and their agency. My being aware of this does not make me "against" all porn, and it sure doesn't make me anti-woman.

A rather exceptional post.

academy award material I am sure.

I think the worst part about porn (the 'normal' consenting adult ones where no one is drugged or threatened, or forced to choke on semen, etc.,) are the lame assed scripts.

I haven't seen any for a long time but that is the impression I am left with - I don't remember parts smooshing together or any of that, but the ridiculous low brow script.

"Did you order pizza with extra sausage?"
"Yes! And so did my friend!"

That's okay -- no one's watching it for the brilliant writing or acting. Which is fine.

and when you are having an affair with yourself, you diminish/weaken/lessen other real human contact relationships....

and you hurt all other real human relationships when watching pornography....

it is a vicious circle of deceit....self deceit.....

To stay off a jury on this one.

I was right.

I kinda of feel like my stances on pornography one or another have very little effect on women.

you just jetpacked over the shark.. badly....

otherwise we would get it all wrong on our own.

Quick, tell us what we're supposed to think about birth control too!

ya. cause i cannot figure it out on my own.

hey woman... good seein' ya.

I like to think I am a man as well, and I find this OP to be pretty damned stupid. Don't imagine for one second that the point of view expressed in it is in any way typical amongst all men. It isn't.

as genuinely befuddling and insulting as the all-male GOP hearings on birth control. I appreciate your candor and clarity.

this is really, all about him. did your wife give you my message. that was my bad. and i know i have been forever confused with you two. well, i thought you were one. gonna TRY to do better on that.

No worries, we share everything anyway so there really isn't a whole lot of difference between us in what we post. Except maybe her love of Genealogy. I try to help but all those endless lists of birth and death records just make my eyes go all swimmy.

hubby and i do to. makes everything really easy. and he is the geneology dude. i love what he finds. he has found some good stuff that knocked his father off his feet. i kinda appreciated it, lol. but, ya. us too. makes no worries.

"codswallop"

porn and sex. You can be against porn but not against sex.

2. Porn is the selling of sex. Porn actors are paid to sell sex to people they would otherwise not have sex with.

So I'll ask you a question: how do you feel about a person who sells their vote?

Or someone who sells their love to the highest bidder?

Are those actions wrong or do you see nothing wrong with those acts of selling oneself either?

3. If you're arguing that sex is not wrong, you're right. When engaged in by the wrong people, it's just dumb.

Come on really? Really? Porn is a business and has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's sexual expression. We're not talking Manet or Picasso here. Nice that you bought the line of the porn marketing though. Good luck with that.

Let's start with Picasso's Sleeping Woman, shown above.

What does she have on her mind?

(Hint: it's on top of her head.)

analyzed. And then ask you Art History professor when he/she is going to give a lecture on 'Daisy does Dallas' or whatever the current fav is.

Eroticism has always been a major element of fine art, sometimes boldly explicit, other times subtly hidden for those with the insight to spot it.

Meanwhile, back to Picasso. Note that her hands have five non-thumb fingers, suggesting the blurred appearance of objects in motion.

There is a difference, besides lighting.

this has not been discussed enough.

We really need to have a discussion about porn.

And you can hate porn and still be anti-woman or love porn and be anti-woman. It is this strange thing called free will. Gets to everyone eventually.

She'd say, "Boy, now if you don't like porn, well, that means you don't love your old granny. Now you want to love your old granny now, don'tcha, boy? Well, then go gettin and watchin' yourself some porn. Show granny you love her."

Am I right?