Liberal guilt?

[mothra1orbit]

Having met with so many Trump supporters up close, I am ashamed of myself for my elitist view of them. I watch Hillary on tv, with her ease that comes with being intelligent, having had an excellent education, being a lot like me--we are of the same generation--and I feel close to her in a way, I understand what she means when she speaks, I think things are funny that she thinks are funny. I feel the same kinship with Michelle Obama, with Gloria Allred, with Joy Reid. I don't mean that I think we could be friends or anything stalkery like that; I mean that if we encountered each other at a cocktail party we'd be able to exchange pleasantries.

And I feel totally alienated from the nice Trump folks--and they really were sweet as pie (of course I'm a nonthreatening old white woman)--I don't feel like I could spend five minutes in conversation with any of them, and I frankly wouldn't want to. And I feel terrible about this.

I think part of the unthinking rage that underlies support for Trump is the understanding that we liberals, many of us, or at least some of us, really do feel superior to them in terms of intelligence or at least education. And the suggestion that they don't understand what they are supporting when they support Donald Trump must be infuriating to them. How dare we?

Speaking only, god knows, for myself, I am troubled by this. I don't want to feel separated from this great population; I liked those people, even while wanting absolutely nothing to do with any of them personally.

I want to blame education for this. I know I said "so what" about Common Core, I do believe that there are things every one of us should know, if only to provide our country with a shared background on which to paint our various lives. And I hold every kind of work as honorable and valuable, it's not that. I don't want everyone to have to go to college, or even to read the books I deep down think they should read. It just seems to me (at the risk of sounding like an old fart, which I own I am) that the public education I received did make sure that everyone, no matter which "track" he or she was on, knew at least a little bit about Shakespeare, understood the way our government works, could do enough math to get by, and understood evolution. We all also learned to sew, to make mechanical drawings, to cook and to use power tools. Maybe I'm just out of touch, but I'm not sure kids today get exposed to as much stuff as they need to be.

I will appreciate any comfort anyone can offer.

[Skittles]

1. LOL

"sweet as pie" folk don't support misogyny, homophobia, xenophobia, fascism, etc......stop feeling sorry for people who think someone like DONALD TRUMP actually cares about them

[mothra1orbit]

22. No, I don't feel sorry for them

I'm concerned that there is a chasm in our society between us and them that is far more important than even this election, which is incredibly important. I think the Trump campaign is indeed based on misogyny, racism and all that, and I believe that "deplorable" describes just about all his supporters, but I'm not sure that the actual people who are voting for him are all misogynists and racists. I find it hard to believe (and remember, this is Bucks County PA where all the Republicans are moderate and all the children above average) that the people I met at the Trump rally, deplorable as they are, truly believe the shit Trump is shoveling. My point is that we are a divided nation, not divided by Trump/Breitbart/neonazi/fascist values and our values, but by elite and non-elite. I believe that the "normal" people who are voting for Trump, who say they cannot support Hillary on any account, are reacting to something that has become ingrained in us that I'm not sure we can fix.

When JFK was running for the democratic nomination in 1960, the people of WV (where I'm from) loved him. Yet how much more of a cultural difference could possibly exist between him and the vast majority of WVians? Jay Rockefeller, who is probably many times richer and better-educated than JFK, was also beloved of WVians. Somehow these guys were able to connect with (for want of a better word) the lower orders culturally, and work with them to the betterment of our society as a whole. Hillary doesn't have that ability, nor do I in my small part of the world. And this distresses me.

[Skittles]

35. Jay and JFK didn't have to fight misogyny and a corporate media

of course she has the ability

people believe GARBAGE about her because THAT'S ALL THEY'VE HEARD

[A-Schwarzenegger]

2. Sometimes simply accepting reality can be comforting

and can ease our urge to be saints rather than authentic human beings.

[mothra1orbit]

23. Yeah

I don't aspire to be a saint, god knows, but I think this is going to be a tremendous problem for us going forward. Fortunately for me, I'll be long gone when the pot finally boils over, sailing in my handbasket to the lower regions.

[steve2470]

3. People can be polite and pleasant, but also deeply ignorant, not very bright and....

when you scratch the surface, bigoted. I see it all the time also. At the bare minimum, his supporters are ignorant. They truly have NO deep understanding what they are supporting.

As long as you treat those people with civility, I don't think you have anything to feel guilty over.

If you had politely struck up a dialogue about your honest political beliefs with one or more of them, I really doubt they would afford you the same courtesy and civility they did when you remained silent.

[mothra1orbit]

24. You're probably right n/t

[alarimer]

4. Not that we should feel guilty, but we should try to understand.

There has always been a "Know Nothing" component to American society, but it has really taken hold in the internet age. Everyone is an expert on Google, coupled with an educational system that is less rigorous than it should be. The ignorance is not confined to the right, by the way, but it is arguably worse. It's tough also to understand those that are simply afraid of change, which is what I think lies at the heart of the conservative worldview. The world is changing and they are losing their place.

There are a couple of schools of thought that attempt to explain the divide. One is that people are divided into two groups: those that cling to the familiar and are not open to new things (although I doubt they themselves would put it that way) and those that are open. This coincides with the authoritarian mindset that occurs on the right (though there are authoritarian Democrats as well, but they are much fewer in number).

There are a couple of episodes of the Hidden Brain podcast that attempt to explain why people hold particular beliefs. And I think it is useful to try and explain rather than name-call. I don't know that it will help Democrats reach out or bring them into the fold.

It makes me sad, though, to see so many Americans fall prey to a demagogue. It does prove that Americans are no different than other cultures. No different than post- WWI Germans. It CAN happen here under the right circumstances.

I do know that some liberals do come off as smug and condescending and that's right here, among supposedly like-minded people.

[pat_k]

13. In re: understanding

You might find my post below interesting:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028246857#post12

[mothra1orbit]

25. Thank you

I think you understand completely where I'm coming from, and it heartens me to know that there are people seriously thinking about this problem and what to do about it. I worry that if I were to try to talk to Trump supporters I would indeed come off as smug and condescending--and I think it would be hard not to, if only because of the necessity to explain things that they don't understand, like the fact that they have nothing to fear from the estate tax. The depth of their ignorance, and the violence of their support of things that really run counter to their own interests, makes it triply hard, I think, for any kind of civil discourse to take place at this point. The internet certainly has a huge influence, and yet the well-documented inability to change minds when presented with stone-cold facts is maddening.

[Thinkingabout]

5. I have experienced the RW pressure to "change" my mind..

It has not worked for me and I have started telling them Hillary will be a president to all, they do not understand but soon it will become apparent.

[Adrahil]

6. Sorry... Don't agree.

We're not talking about people uniformed about tax policy, economics, etc. We're talking about people embracing an open racist and a man who promotes sexual assault.

[MyOwnPeace]

7. Schooling..........

surely part of the answer.
Lemme' give a couple of "quickies:"

"Children Live What They Learn"

"You've Got to be Taught"
http://www.metrolyrics.com/youve-got-to-be-carefully-taught-lyrics-south-pacific.html

[JI7]

9. they are just racist. there are many people without formal education ergo do not support him

[awoke_in_2003]

10. Either they don't

understand that their candidate is a racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic pig or they do. If they don't, then they are very stupid. If they do, and don't care, to hell with them- they are pariah.

[pat_k]

12. "The Trump Question: Are You Listening?"

Your post brought this to mind:

The Trump Question: Are You Listening?
May 2, 2016
by Soneile Hymn

...at the Nonviolent Communication (NVC) presentation lead by Lou Zweier, a novel idea began to scratch at my cerebral cortex. Through the lens of NVC, behind all communication there is a need that wants to be fulfilled: security, respect, love, understanding, connection, attention, accomplishment, safety, creativity, the list goes on. I began to wonder, what are the needs that are attracting people to Trump?

What would happen if instead of being shamed and called racist, misogynist and/or uneducated, Trump supporters were listened to? I think we would find that they are people who feel ignored, who are afraid for their future, who are weary of this seemingly inextricable bond that exists between the government and corporations that perpetually funnels the riches and power of the world into the hands of the those very few at the top. Maybe we would find that Trump supporters are our neighbors and friends. Maybe we would find that we have a lot in common.

Nonviolent communication (NVC) offers a way to build compassion connections – even with people who express beliefs "we" abhor.

The principles and techniques involved are, on one level, extremely simple. But to actually do it, you need to change deeply ingrained patterns of thinking and styles of communication. Helpful materials are easy to find at the Center for Nonviolent Communication web site (http://www.cnvc.org). Learning new skills, and unlearning deeply ingrained patterns that alienate us from each other, takes practice. There are facilitator-led practice groups in many communities. And where there are no local groups, it's not hard to connect with groups that meet by phone.

A few times over the years I "tried it out" as a way to develop deeper connections with people already in my life. I didn’t stick with it long enough to get “good” at it, but the shift in intention alone made a powerful difference.

But NVC is not just for personal relationships. It has been used to build bridges in many types of seemingly irreconcilable “us” v “them” conflicts.

I’d like to be a “nonviolent communicator” – a “good person” with the skills necessary to build compassionate connections with people “we” write of as (pejorative term of your choice). It’s an attractive image, but clearly not attractive enough for me to do the work necessary to learn and apply the skills. (At least to date.)

Even though I’ve had a glimpse of the types of transformation NVC can bring about, I continue to stick with ways of thinking and interacting I know are alienating and destructive.

That thought is very disturbing.

An expression of "liberal guilt"? Maybe.

Am I disturbed enough to “get back into” NVC and find people who are using NVC to connect with people in trumpland?

I don’t know. But your post struck a chord and has me thinking about it.

One thing I can say is that anyone struggling with similar feelings and thoughts might find it interesting to take a little time to explore what NVC is all about.

[kcr]

16. See, I think on a personal, individual basis, this is a good idea

I think that's a good way to look at people in general when you're relating to your friends, your family, your neighbors, regardless of their politics, wherever they're returning that spirit of fellowship in kind. Where I think some get it wrong is extending this notion to the politics themselves. This doesn't work because the political climate in this country right now is different. The Right isn't playing nice. They're like the bullies who might act nice to rope you in, pretending they want to find common ground, then will pummel you any chance they get. There's no reason why we have to roll over and pretend we're trying to find common ground with them, and no reason to feel guilty for not doing so, or made to feel like you're being some superior elitest just because you're not willing to be one of their passive victims. That's a bullying tactic as far as I'm concerned.

[pat_k]

20. Absolutely. No "rolling over'

Last edited Sun Oct 23, 2016, 06:28 AM - Edit history (1)

NVC is a person to person practice. The people may be in groups, but the interactions and techniques are about interpersonal connection.

But that does not mean it is not useful in bringing about political transformation. Ultimately, all political change starts with personal interactions.

I am just an NVC dabbler, and not great at describing what it is. But I have seen it in action. It can be kind of amazing.

What it is not: It is not about compromise, finding middle ground, or "touchy-feely" niceness.

The approach/process/techniques help us elicit what another person is "really" saying -- getting to the need/feeling behind the words. Needs that may have very little to do with the angry or loathsome words that may be pouring out. It is also a way to get behind our own thoughts and feelings to the underlying needs.

When one experiences really being heard -- having someone "get" the underlying human need behind the anger, frustration, whatever -- something happens. There is a shift. A release of tension that opens up space for listening and caring in return.

NVC provides ways to separate out and express our observations, feelings, needs, and requests in a way that is both completely honest and non-threatening.

Truth, not "making nice."

What people think they want you to do, or want to see happen, sometimes has little relation to their actual needs. When you finally get to what the those needs are, finding mutually satisfactory ways to get the needs met becomes possible.

And we all share the same basic human needs -- that is where connection is found.

Some quotes from Marshall Rosenberg (founder of the center for non-violent communication) that might help give a flavor of it:

“focus on clarifying what is being observed, felt, and needed rather than on diagnosing and judging,”

“At the core of all anger is a need that is not being fulfilled.”

“All violence is the result of people tricking themselves into believing that their pain derives from other people and that consequently those people deserve to be punished.”

“Every criticism, judgment, diagnosis, and expression of anger is the tragic expression of an unmet need.”

“Peace requires something far more difficult than revenge or merely turning the other cheek; it requires empathizing with the fears and unmet needs that provide the impetus for people to attack each other. Being aware of these feelings and needs, people lose their desire to attack back because they can see the human ignorance leading to these attacks; instead, their goal becomes providing the empathic connection and education that will enable them to transcend their violence and engage in cooperative relationships.”

“To practice the process of conflict resolution, we must completely abandon the goal of getting people to do what we want.”

[kcr]

21. For the most part I agree

I have no problem with trying to resolve conflicts peacefully from the get-go. Michael Moore's new movie that is out is a perfect example of what I think you're talking about. What I have a problem with is, once the conflict is already in progress - a great big example being the Trump campaign - you're dealing with bad people acting in bad faith, with issues like racism, misogyny and sexual assault. You don't tackle problems like that by finding middle ground. In this case, you have a direct agenda and you very much want people to do what you want. No more racism and more sexual assault per my example. That's a deal breaker. I'm not saying you have to be violently aggressive on the attack, or act in bad faith just like they do. But you have to act knowing that they aren't coming to the table with the same agenda that you are, and I have a problem with people insisting this is the case. It comes across almost victim blaming. It can sound like, "If only you were nicer to the racists and tried to understand them!" Nope. As soon as the vile garbage starts to spew, it's game on, and I will side with right every time. I will never tell victims they have to try to understand the garbage spewers. That's nonsense.

[mothra1orbit]

30. but do you really think

that individual voters in relatively civilized parts of our country, in states that are not totally, irredeemably red, buy into the racism, sexism and just general hatred that Trump represents? I'm not sure they do. It astonishes me what people who otherwise strike me as completely sane are willing to overlook in order to support Trump and/or avoid supporting Hillary.

I was wearing my kitty shirt that says "Look out, Donald, this one's armed" to the grocery store the other day--frankly, I'd forgotten I was wearing it; I'm not the sort to look for confrontations with strangers--and the only person who seemed to notice it enough to comment was a young mother who looked like a Hillary supporter to me (well-dressed and groomed, all her teeth--I can say that here, can't I, among friends?) who said in passing me, sort of under her breath "Well, there you go--stupid, stupid, stupid." I was very surprised--who, especially what woman, does not oppose sexual assault? She clearly either didn't believe the charge (or the words coming out of Donald Trump's mouth), or else didn't think they were anything to be upset about.

I think there's something else going on here, behind or beyond the ugly words and ideas, that allows otherwise normal people to align themselves with these monsters.

[treestar]

17. They don't dislike the corporations

They admire the rich and think they would be too without government regulation.

[pressbox69]

15. Trump should jump into the deepest hole on earth...

And his supporters should follow his lead.

[treestar]

18. We are supposed to be guilty for

Being educated. They wallow in their ignorance and expect to be equal to those who are smarter and more educated. Thank Rush Limbaugh. We have given them too much deference. They actually expect now that the educated to respect them equally. What is funny is for all their ranting about hard work, our hard work in studying and learning is to be ignored.

[kcr]

19. When Trump supporters, and right wingers in general say things like "You think you're so smart"

It's an insult. It's meant as an insult. They do it because they don't value smarts and education. For some people the insults works, because they claim the response should be trying to understand them. Find common ground with them. Go to them and comfort whatever wounds they're feeling because they feel hurt that they're not as educated and smart. It's baloney. This is what is behind that aspect of the whole liberal guilt thing. If you actually feel superior to them as a human being and that makes you feel bad, work on that, of course, but reading your post I honestly think a lot of it has to do with what I'm talking about. The political discourse has been so bad in our country for so long that there is a lot of hurt and resentment on both sides. There is no reason to feel shame for being educated, and believe me, they're not crying because they're not. They basically don't care that they aren't and you shouldn't either.

[LWolf]

28. I got a great public education

in California, before prop 13.

And I had sewing and cooking classes. No power tools or auto shop, but touch-typing that has served me well my whole life. I got my "other" skills with livestock, with digging and planting and mulching and pruning and hay hooks and hoof picks and cleaning and repairing leather tack and grooming and fence repair and driving a stick shift (3 on the column in that old truck) and changing tires and so many other things working on a ranch.

My high school taught some of everything to everybody, and if we wanted to go to college, our counselors told us which classes were necessary for which types of universities we planned to attend, and we took them.

I included, and include, among my friends many who did not attend college. That didn't mean that they weren't intelligent, just that they had different goals. And, throughout my life, I've depended on many people who didn't attend college to perform vital services that I didn't learn how to do for myself. And they make just as much money as I do with my college degree doing so. Some of them make more.

It's true that today's Trump supporters don't "get" some really vital pieces of the big picture. And the public education system is partly at fault, having been dumbed down to simplistic thinking. That has nothing whatsoever to do with "Common Core;" those standards are another whole topic.

Start with Ronald Reagan, who wanted to abolish the DOE. Whose administration published "A Nation At Risk" as part of its determined effort to attack public education and public ed teachers, to devalue them in the national culture. That's an effort that was wildly successful.

That led to the adamant "back to the basics" push, which fed the public on eloquent rhetoric about focusing on basics and neglected to mention that critical thinking was, and is, not considered "basic." So we get generations of people who, unless they were preparing for college, were not taught critical thinking skills. Not only were those skills not taught, but any effort to do so was fucking HAMMERED by the propagandists shaping the national thinking over the airwaves, so that parents began complaining, loudly, at site and district levels whenever their children were expected, in school, to question ANYTHING. Because, happening at the same time, we goy the de-regulation of the airwaves and the rise of propaganda-driven talk radio and tv; propaganda can influence anyone.

That was the rise of an anti-intellectual agenda on the right, keeping the masses unthinking followers of media leaders. It also includes, though, the rise of Democratic neo-liberalism, which includes neo-liberal education policies that build on the anti-intellect, anti-teacher, anti-public ed foundation laid by the neo-cons; the agenda to blame teachers for "failing" and privatize public education.

The generations of students I teach these days come from parents who want very simple, linear, black-and-white, literal worksheets and questions, and who complain when I ask their students to think. Many of them are Trump supporters. Do I feel superior to them? I don't look at it that way. I look through a different lens:

I'm grateful for the education that I got, and I consider it my duty to pass it on to my students and their families. It's not about judging them, but about paying it forward. It's about unconditional love for my students and their families, and about doing what I can to weed and prepare soil and plant seeds that may, someday, take root. If they don't remember, nor use, anything I teach them, at the very least they will remember that school offered them a safe, respectful environment and their teacher cared about them. That in itself is the best response to the anti-everything-education poison that I can offer. Still, they do remember more than that. They do get skills that will help them. And when they reach adulthood, have established themselves more independently, and their prefrontal cortices are fully developed, the thinking skills I introduced and reinforced can help them grow.

If you need someone to blame, don't blame the system. Blame the voters that voted for, and supported, politicians who degraded the system. And don't hate the Trump supporters; that only pushes them further away. To change their thinking, they have to be open to listening to you. That will never happen if you give them good reason to slam the doors in your face.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

29. Trump is running a con, and a con doesn't work unless

the mark is ignorant of the substance of the scheme. Trump himself doesn't seem to understand how our government works, but regardless of whether he doesn't know how it works or is just being cynical, he's promising all kinds of things that he can't possibly deliver. He can't build a wall on the Mexican border; he can't deport 11 million people; he can't create millions of jobs by cutting corporate taxes; he can't do just about any of the things he's promised because they are unconstitutional, impossible, stupid, beyond the powers of a president, or some combination thereof. While candidates often make campaign promises that are merely aspirational, Trump's are so far out there that anyone who understands how the American system of government works would see instantly that they are all rank bullshit. But the people who are ignorant of those processes will not see that, and will be persuaded by the con. And there's also more than a little racism in the mix, which is also fed by ignorance.

[bhikkhu]

33. I feel the same about trump supporters as I do about bigfoot hunters

and I met an avid bigfoot hunter the other day - listened to reams of the latest evidence I'd never heard of. I didn't argue or threaten his beliefs, and he was hopeful enough that I could be a compadre that he gave me a few websites to research for myself. Of course looking into it, it was entirely and ridiculously bogus even on the surface, and much of what he told me in conversation went far beyond even the baloney to be found online. So he concocted a whole elaborate internal world, as fictional as Narnia. Why? Who knows. The whole mental thing might be interesting to somebody, but no so much to me.

Otherwise a decent person, and not terrible company if certain things are avoided. But it gets tiresome. Typically I'm polite and welcoming, but there is a definite distance.

I like and get along with everybody, generally speaking, but nobody has time for everybody. As far as trump supporters, I don't know any really (that I know of), but I don't worry that I'm missing some great opportunity because of that - I don't have the time I would wish for to spend with the friends and family I have already.

[GreenEyedLefty]

34. I don't think it's the educational system.

I think it's racism, sexism and homophobia. Deep-seated racial hate, misogyny and homophobia I think a lot of white people, men in particular, grew up believing in the narrative of their superiority over minorities and women. In the last decade they have perceived an erosion of their superiority when a black man had the audacity to run for, and win, the presidency, the legalization of gay marriage, and now the next insult: a woman candidate for president. In the right wing mind, this country is going to hell and it's the fault of "the blacks," "feminists," and "the gay agenda."

None of this is new, the deep down ugliness in a lot of people - many of whom we thought we *knew* - is finally being revealed. What's troubling to me is that it's always been there, we just haven't seen it until now.