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Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:01 PM

 

Please stop and take a breath. Do we really want the first shot in the 2nd Civil War to

be this moron's heckling of the President at a Press Conference?

Somehow it just doesn't have that Fort Sumter feel to it.

I've seen a couple OPs and numerous posts openly advocating violence and extra-judicial vigiliantism in response to this act of boorish behavior. If we are going to descend to those depths, shouldn't it be for something like the attack on Gabby Giffords and not simply in response to words?

I think Obama handled it perfectly and my respect for him has shot up 1000%. Can't say the same about some of the posts on DU in response to it. I understand the anger and it is not, imo, mere posturing or 'poutrage'. This was a grievous breach of protocol and there should be serious consequences for Munro and for the Daily Caller, no question, up to and including revocation of press privileges.

That said, I felt compelled to weigh in strongly against descending to their level even when the anger is so righteous.

54 replies, 6030 views

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Arrow 54 replies Author Time Post
Reply Please stop and take a breath. Do we really want the first shot in the 2nd Civil War to (Original post)
coalition_unwilling Jun 2012 OP
quinnox Jun 2012 #1
truedelphi Jun 2012 #9
Bake Jun 2012 #38
Laurian Jun 2012 #2
monmouth Jun 2012 #8
Laurian Jun 2012 #23
JDPriestly Jun 2012 #43
Cali_Democrat Jun 2012 #3
malthaussen Jun 2012 #4
truedelphi Jun 2012 #10
malthaussen Jun 2012 #12
Zalatix Jun 2012 #18
malthaussen Jun 2012 #20
Zalatix Jun 2012 #26
RZM Jun 2012 #44
malthaussen Jun 2012 #45
coalition_unwilling Jun 2012 #17
malthaussen Jun 2012 #25
coalition_unwilling Jun 2012 #32
malthaussen Jun 2012 #37
4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #39
all american girl Jun 2012 #34
Autumn Jun 2012 #5
coalition_unwilling Jun 2012 #7
SoutherDem Jun 2012 #6
coalition_unwilling Jun 2012 #14
graham4anything Jun 2012 #11
Zalatix Jun 2012 #21
Scootaloo Jun 2012 #13
coalition_unwilling Jun 2012 #15
Scootaloo Jun 2012 #19
coalition_unwilling Jun 2012 #30
Scootaloo Jun 2012 #31
pa28 Jun 2012 #16
WilliamPitt Jun 2012 #22
Gregorian Jun 2012 #24
Egalitarian Thug Jun 2012 #27
malthaussen Jun 2012 #28
Scootaloo Jun 2012 #33
Egalitarian Thug Jun 2012 #51
malthaussen Jun 2012 #52
Egalitarian Thug Jun 2012 #54
Egalitarian Thug Jun 2012 #53
aquart Jun 2012 #29
jtuck004 Jun 2012 #35
coalition_unwilling Jun 2012 #36
jtuck004 Jun 2012 #49
4th law of robotics Jun 2012 #40
malthaussen Jun 2012 #41
coalition_unwilling Jun 2012 #42
RZM Jun 2012 #46
jtuck004 Jun 2012 #50
RZM Jun 2012 #47
MineralMan Jun 2012 #48

Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:05 PM

1. seriously? wow, so because some bozo was rude to the president

 

some wanted the guy hurt or attacked? That is way over the line. Sounds like some overly sensitive supporters are overreacting, and making a mountain out of a molehill. *Sigh* but what else is new.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:17 PM

9. And those wanting phsyical damage done to the heckler

don't consider that if the Democratic party followers do this to Republican hecklers, what will happen in return to us?

There have already been Tea Party rallies inside Town Meetings where the Tea Party folks seemed to think anyone with a differing opinion was fair game. This is not how a democracy works.

Our nation has managed over the past ten decades to have peaceful meetings and assemblies, and now is not the time to change this.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #9)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:06 PM

38. Don't forget what Rand Paul's thugs did to a peaceful protester during the KY Senate campaign

The head-stomping incident.

Thugs will be thugs.

Bake

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:06 PM

2. Maybe it's just the last straw.

The anger and disgust at the blatant disrespect has been growing for some time. I think we're at the breaking point, where tolerance for this shit just needs to end.

Turning the other cheek and being "better than them" has worn thin.

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Response to Laurian (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:17 PM

8. If it had been done to a pub president they'd be in cuffs already..n/t

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Response to monmouth (Reply #8)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:00 PM

23. Frankly, I think we are very often too passive.

And that passivity emboldens the right wing to continue with their outrageous behavior. I've never seen any of them suffer any consequences for their nastiness.

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Response to Laurian (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:35 PM

43. That is no excuse!

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:06 PM

3. A 2nd civil war would not be a good thing. n/t

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:09 PM

4. I wonder how those people would have reacted to the Teddy Roosevelt heckler...

The story goes that Teddy was giving a speech, and asked why anyone would vote Democrat. Guy stands up in the crowd, and says "My father was a Democrat, and his father was a Democrat, so I'm a Democrat."
Roosevelt: "Sir, if your father was a jackass, and his father a jackass, what would that make you?"
Heckler: "A Republican!"

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:19 PM

10. Great story Thank you for the laugh. n/t

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #10)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:22 PM

12. Supposedly, Teddy had the good grace to fall over laughing himself.

But the story may be apocryphal. So many of the best ones are.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:51 PM

18. And to think Teddy Roosevelt was far to the left of everyone today except Bernie Sanders.

 

Of course he had his issues with native Americans and a few racial scandals, but back then he was pretty far to the left on racial issues, compared to everyone else. As far as his economic policies, he would be far to the left of President Obama.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #18)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:54 PM

20. Economically progressive, but over-fond of gunboats.

The story of the Panama Canal is one of the classics of imperialism.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #20)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:03 PM

26. Yeah, he was par for the course on that issue.

 

We're still mired in imperialism today.

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:41 PM

44. A bit off topic, but here's my favorite apocryphal heckling story

 

Allegedly during the 'Secret Speech' in 1956, Khrushchev was in the middle of detailing Stalin's crimes when one of the Soviet delegates shouted:

'So why didn't you try to stop him?'

Khrushchev immediately became angry and barked:

'Who said that?'

The room went completely silent. After a moment, Khrushchev said:

'There's your answer.'

Almost certainly it's not true, but it's a damn good story

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Response to RZM (Reply #44)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:45 PM

45. Sure is! Never heard that one!

Committing to memory.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:48 PM

17. That was back when heckling was a fine art. We could take some lessons

 

from the Brits, methinks.

Awesome story, though. Thanks for sharing!

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:03 PM

25. In one of the many supposed arguments between Churchill and Astor

... it was about pig farming, or some such... Churchill reputedly said something along the lines of "The Member is totally ignorant of swine farming. Why, I would wager she doesn't even know how many toes a pig has!" To which Lady Astor is said to have replied, "Well, I don't know, Winnie, why don't we take off your shoesie-woosies and count your toesie-wosies?"

Their most famous exchange, of course, is when Astor told Churchill: "If I were your wife, I'd poison your tea," and Churchill replied: "If you were my wife, I'd drink it."

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #25)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:30 PM

32. Classics. Almost DUZY worthy, even if they hail from a different

 

era entirely.

I'm never quick enough on my feet to summon up such levels of 'wit' when the occasion demands it. I wish I were.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #32)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:54 PM

37. The French have an expression:

"L'esprit d'escalier," which refers to that lovely feeling of having just the right clever response... ten minutes too late.

All of us are in that boat, I fear. Unless we're Churchills.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #37)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:13 PM

39. "L'esprit d'escalier"

 

What a useful phrase. I looked it up, literally translates to "staircase wit", as in you think of something great to say once you've gotten to the bottom of the staircase.

We need something like that in english.

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:39 PM

34. Love it...Thanks for the laugh!!!!!

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:10 PM

5. Obama handled it well and

made a clear distinction between class and trash. I really hope he revokes their press privileges .

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Response to Autumn (Reply #5)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:13 PM

7. Me too! That's the appropriate response to a serious breach of

 

protocol. Of course, with Repigs in charge of Congress, it might occasion impeachment hearings and, at that point, a 2nd Civil War would be something to consider perhaps. But not now.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:11 PM

6. I agree

To me this makes President Obama look even more Presidential. He told him he was talking and continued.

As to 2nd Civil War. I kinda thought we were already in a Cold Civil War.

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Response to SoutherDem (Reply #6)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:38 PM

14. I guess I was thinking of a 'hot war' based on some of the posts I was reading. But I think

 

a "Cold Civil War" (or better "Cold Class War") fairly well sums up where we are right now.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:21 PM

11. Best satisfaction will be President Obama's reelection in Nov.

 

the best satisfaction to the idiots on the other side will be when President Obama wins reelection, and a Democrat wins and becomes #45 in 2016 and 2020.

And SCOTUS is returned to our side, and so is the house and the senate.

However, we must be vigilant and we all should protect our presidents back.
(best way to that is to have the biggest landslide in 2012 in Nov.)

For every vote they purge, we need 2 voters signed up who go the polls and vote in Nov.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:56 PM

21. You better believe that if President Obama wins re-election, a civil war will erupt.

 

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:30 PM

13. "First shot?"

Friend... they've been trying to exterminate us, our families, and our communities for thirty years, and have been making significant gains in doing so. As for literal shots? Well, they've been shooting at us the whole time. Ask rep. Giffords. or one of the Kennedy brothers - oops.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #13)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:47 PM

15. Just as Fort Sumter was preceded by Brown's Ferry and, before that,

 

Bleeding Kansas, so too any 'first shot' must of necessity have its precedents.

I understand where you are coming from, believe me I do.

Do you think that today is a 2nd Fort Sumter?



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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #15)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:53 PM

19. Do you know how Fort Sumter went down?

There's a really excellent book, titled "1861" by Adam Goodheart that builds up all the way to South Carolina firing on Fort Sumter. From the first grumbling of secession all the way to the first shot of the war, written wholly from primary sources.

No, this is certainly not "the" Fort Sumter moment. Frankly, owing to the lack of a geographical divide between ideologies these days, comparisons to the civil war of the 19th century are all going to fall pretty flat.

But in a more general sense, no; it would require an act of violence to light that spark. Not an act of shitty manners.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #19)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:25 PM

30. Thanks for the title rec. I'll check it out from the library soon. I've

 

read most of the major histories of the Civil War (Cattons, McPherson's, Shelby Foote's, to name but a few), so feel I have a pretty good sense on how the hot heads fanned the flames.

I actually was worried that the Gabby Gifford incident might be the spark that lit the flame. Turns out my worries were (so far) misplaced.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #30)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:28 PM

31. it was close.

The republicans were fast on assuring everyone he was a "lone nut" and, well, since Lougner looked like this;



The "Lone nut" excuse was pretty easy to buy.

It would take someone with demonstrable ties to push that button. Say, a ted Bundy sort, you know, republican organizer sort of guy.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:48 PM

16. Compared to Joe Wilson's outburst this is a minor episode.

Certainly nothing to be threatening violence over.

I disagree with the punishment being 'up to and including revoking credentials'. It should be 'revoking credentials' period.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 05:59 PM

22. Hyperbole.

It's contagious.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:02 PM

24. Amen. Someone has to set the example.

I'll side with the bright, nonviolent people who have made the greatest changes in society.

Hey, this is the trouble with nonviolent behavior. It means we can't force our way. It just has to happen by example.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:05 PM

27. Not at all. What I think he should do is bring some heavy hitters from the world of stand-up and

 

learn how to really handle a heckler. That kind of ridicule combined with the office would end the guy's career and the President would walk away a hero. He'd only have to do it once and he would never be heckled again.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #27)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:11 PM

28. You're dreaming, Thug

Those people don't care if their front men are effective. All they care is that they make noise. Paddy has a guaranteed job so long as he mouths the party line. You're talking like you think the media is a free market or something.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #28)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:32 PM

33. First off, unless he goes by the nickname of "Paddy," don't call him that, kay?

Maintain some standards.

Aside from that though, you're right - it's a win-win for him. Either he keeps his white house press access, or he doesn't - and if he loses it, suddenly he's a "martyr for the cause," and has job offers out the wazoo from the right-wing media.

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #28)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 09:55 PM

51. Those people don't matter at all. There is nothing, absolutely nothing at all, that President Obama

 

could ever do to change them, that's not the point.

A professional, world-class smack down would resonate with the base, and more importantly show the yellow stripes that he is in charge, has the capacity to take the fight to them, and would demonstrate in the only way they understand that he is just that much better than the obstructionists.

I'm not talking about a Sam Kinison style evisceration, there's no reason to make the asshole cry (although I would love that). Rather, to use the stagecraft that he so obviously lacks to make an dramatic, undeniable point that will resonate with televidiots and which he can ride to November.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #51)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 10:04 PM

52. Oh, I see. I misunderstood.

I hadn't thought about how smacking the guy down could promote Mr Obama's position on the Left. Although the consensus here seems to be he acted judiciously. Personally, I'm a big fan of not dignifying idiots with a response, but I'm not running for anything, either.

-- Mal

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #52)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 10:39 PM

54. I agree with you, but that's why we lose. Acting judiciously is exactly the mistake we never seem

 

to tire of making. Being reasonable and smart and open to ideas and debate are all wonderful characteristics to us, but we're a shrinking minority in America.

Americans, especially those Americans that don't know, don't care, that just want a little more and to be left alone want action, strength, commitment, and most of all a daddy protector. Someone that won't take shit from some little pissant dweeb that writes for a living.

What made reagan so fucking popular? He was an idiot, until George the lesser came along, he was the dumbest human being (and I'm stretching the definition) to be in the White House in my life and probably ever, and that includes people that took the tour. He was completely devoid of any knowledge of foreign affairs, economic issues, you name it, he didn't know it. But he was a professional actor, he had excellent timing, he knew how to deliver a line, he projected the leading man vibe, and the suckers ate it up just like they do in the theaters. People that had never voted in their lives came out to vote for reagan. People that couldn't point to their home state on a map just knew he was a wonderful man that would fix their problems, and it didn't even matter what their problems were, they felt he was the guy.

I think that these days, any political candidate that doesn't spend a couple of years learning the art of acting is just a fat target waiting to be picked off.
Anyway, thanks for replying.

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Response to malthaussen (Reply #28)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 10:06 PM

53. And something else; We don't like to talk about this, but it is reality.

 

If Barack Obama loses this election, he loses much, much more than the Presidency. If he loses we will not see another black person in power for a generation or more.

As always for every person of color in America, the stakes are much higher for him than they are for the next whitey. White guys fuck up and start again, black folks fuck up and become fodder for every racist forever. "Well we tried one of them and look what happened".

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:17 PM

29. Piffle. Rude is rude.

That bratty monster had a lousy nanny.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:39 PM

35. Uh, black folk have been getting shot, hung, dragged out and burned alive, jailed, disrespected,

and treated as less than a full human being, even going so far as making THAT legal for a time, for about 400 years here.

Wouldn't someone need to stop "shooting" in order for there to be another first shot?

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #35)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 06:46 PM

36. Touche. Except that a 'civil war' assumes two or more organized military

 

or paramilitary forces opposing one another for hegemony within a given society. That's not to diminish by one iota the seriousness of racially-motivated violence in our society, just to reserve the category of 'civil war' for the specific conditions articulated above.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #36)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 09:40 PM

49. You're right of course. I just thought I might point out that black folk could wake up and never


realize the bullets are now coming from a different gun.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:15 PM

40. Really, people are advocating violence over heckling?

 

They should watch videos of the British Parliament some time if they think that's bad.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #40)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:27 PM

41. I love watching Parliament

But they've gotten more "civilised" over the years.

I did some research in the Pennsylvania Assembly archives some years ago, and it was funny to read about some of their antics. 'twas not so long ago, our Congresscritters were punching each other out, challenging each other to duels, and (as in the case of Sumner) caning each other in their seats.

Sometimes, I wish for a return to those days. I can think of certain legislators who definitely need a punch in the nose.

-- Mal

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #40)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 07:28 PM

42. I want to be clear. This was not 'heckling' the way

 

it is practiced in the British Parliament. (We do not have such a tradition of heckling here.) This was, at best, a serious breach of protocol. A President, no matter his or her party, delivers prepared remarks and then, upon their conclusion, asks if there are questions from the assembled media. At worst, this was blatant disrespect, both for the person of Obama and the office of the President. I apologize if my wording in the OP conveyed the wrong impression.

There was a thread (subsequently hidden by a jury but not before I had read and commented) that called directly for 'ass-kicking' (of the literal type). There have been many posts that either directly call for violent responses or indirectly and figuratively call for it.

I don't mean to come across as holier-than-thou. I would just like people to stop and reflect before they give vent to their justified and righteous anger.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #42)


Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #42)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 09:54 PM

50. Was there this in the 60's? n/t

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 08:10 PM

47. This wasn't much more than a stupid dumbass acting like a tool in front of the world

 

He tried to be the big man and ended up getting put in his place. The first thing it reminded me of was this clip in which oddball journalist Nardwuar trolled Mikhail Gorbachev on a visit to Canada around the late 1980s or so. Granted this clip is more lighthearted and I do actually like Nardwuar. But the principle was basically the same . . . trying to steal the spotlight and look cool while doing so:









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Response to coalition_unwilling (Original post)

Fri Jun 15, 2012, 08:14 PM

48. Yup.

You're absolutely right on this.

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