Anita Sarkeesian, Video Game Rape Culture, and Why Online Harassment Is Not a Joke (long screencap)

[demmiblue]

Source: Think Progress

<snip>

Which is why I was so angry to hear about what’s happened to Anita Sarkeesian. For anyone who’s unfamiliar with her plight, Sarkeesian wanted to start a project to cover a subject that’s not exactly radical: the portrayal of women in video games. Her YouTube account, in which she explains the project, was flooded with comments equating her to the KKK, calling her a “fucking hypocrite slut,” comparing the project to an act of war, and flagging the video as promoting hatred or violence. Her Wikipedia page was vandalized, her picture replaced with pornographic images, and people tried to get the Kickstarter proposal Sarkeesian was using to raise money to support the project shut down. Fortunately, in this case, despite past issues with harassment victims, it seems like Kickstarter’s been more helpful to Sarkeesian than not.

But the whole incident is a reminder of how deeply some men are invested not simply in the structures that provide them tangible advantages, but in the conventions that let them wallow in culture that indulges their worst, stupidest impulses. And if folks are willing to fight this hard against someone doing criticism of culture, there are others who will do worse to preserve the laws that give them privilege in the world. Culture in this area, as in so many others, is a canary in a coal mine. And women who complain about online harassment aren’t being oversensitive: they’re trying to stop an ugly cycle before it spirals out of control. Both psychologically and substantively, it’s key to our ability to do our work.

http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2012/06/13/498519/anita-sarkeesian-video-game-rape-culture-and-why-online-harassment-is-not-a-joke/


Anita Sarkeesian's video and a screencap of some of the comments:

http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/06/harassment-misogyny-and-silencing-on-youtube/

[hifiguy]

1. I don't give a flying hoot about video games -

the last time I played one was probably a Ms. Pac-Man in a bar when I was in college. But the vitriol, bile and sheer nastiness of most of these "comments" is beyond disturbing. Cretins, morons, idiots and imbeciles for the most part and I am sure they are posting from mommy's basement. Disgusting.

[bullwinkle428]

2. +1000...couldn't agree more.

[Zalatix]

116. I don't think these cockroaches will stay in their basements.

One of these idiots is bound to flip out and assault her if they can find her. A task that the Internet has made much easier because of all the databases that are kept on individuals.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

3. You can't go to the Internet with pleas for decency...

And expect to be showered in kindness.

Especially on YouTube.

She must be new.

[Luminous Animal]

11. Where does she make pleas for decency?

In fact, she posts that she is leaving the comments open as a way of illustrating why the topic is important.

[malthaussen]

56. There's a rhetorical figure

By which you illustrate what you are explaining by using what you are explaining -- e.g., using hyperbole to demonstrate hyperbole.

Wish to hell I could remember what it's called, but this is a classic example.

-- Mal

[Harmony Blue]

122. You hit a hornets nest

and don't expect a response.

[Posteritatis]

76. "Attached below is The Problem. Let's do something about this, okay?"

Seems clear enough to me.

[Egalitarian Thug]

4. Not too long ago I would have said something like "unbelievable",

now it's just expected.

You can see a slightly more literate and less obvious version of this here today. The war on women is not limited to one party or demographic.
K&R

[redqueen]

6. Very well said.

K&R

[Egalitarian Thug]

14. Thanks & kick. n/t

[seabeyond]

134. +1. nt

[Lucy Goosey]

5. Where the hell is all that hate coming from?

I literally don't understand how all those assholes think that she has done anything to deserve these kinds of comments. It's depressing to say the least, though it's also a bit fascinating.

[redqueen]

8. Fascinating?

Too many people have been silent while the objectification of women has been claimed as a birthright by far too many men.

Now, when anyone dares challenge that perceived entitlement, these people who have grown up thinking that Hugh Hefner was right when he said "women are sex objects" go apeshit with outrage, bile, and hate.

We see it here on DU.

[Lucy Goosey]

12. "Fascinating" was possibly a stupid word choice on my part.

I just mean I would find it really interesting to study people like the assholes who are calling Sarkeesian a terrorist, or who think that studying women in video games is akin to promoting violence. I really don't understand where these people are coming from, but I would be interested in learning about them. From a safe distance, of course.

[redqueen]

21. They're coming from a place where women aren't people.

They are things. Eye candy. Sex objects. There for men's entertainment.

Challenge that and you get this reaction. Logic doesn't matter. They just spew all kinds of crap and figure some of it will stick.

[hifiguy]

13. I honestly doubt much of the gaming demographic

knows much about Hefner other than his occasional voiceovers in shows like "Family Guy." The people who have grown up with video gaming are mostly in their 20s and 30s. They're far more likely to have read "lads' mags" like Maxim. Playboy's heyday was from the early 1960s through the early 1980s, a full generation earlier.

[redqueen]

20. They don't have to know anything about him to agree with the sentiment.

This shit is out of control, and its long past time that progressives stopped allowing liberals and libertarians to lead the way on this issue (and many others, but we've seen that changing in recent decades).

[hifiguy]

23. Well, I have always described myself as a "liberal"

and proudly so for my entire adult life. When did "liberal" become a bad word on a Democratic discussion forum?

[redqueen]

25. When I started associating the term with people like Maher, Moore,

Hefner, Flynt, and their defenders.

Maher and Moore should not be defended when they use misogynist slurs.

The other two are just horrible people full stop.

[hifiguy]

49. I will speak only to Michael Moore

in the interests of conservation of space.

Let me put forth the proposition that "Farenheit 911" and "Sicko" have done infinitely more to illuminate and promote liberal/progressive/whatever you consider an acceptable word causes than your shrill poutrage could accomplish in ten million lifetimes.

[redqueen]

51. LMMFAO...of COURSE you ignore it. Of course.

And yeah... Not just poutrage, but "shrill" poutrage.

I read you LOUD AND CLEAR.

[hifiguy]

53. I have "ignored" nothing.

I didn't use the word and explained my reasons for focusing on Michael Moore. You, however, ignored the substance of my post about Michael Moore, my post at the head of this thread and the substance of hfojvt's post explaining his/her earlier post.

It must be hell when you see nothing but the demons tattooed on the inside of your eyelids.

hifiguy out.

[redqueen]

57. It must be nice to personalize discussions and attack prople rather than deal with the ideas

they discuss.

LOL no, just kidding. I don't think such intellectual dishonesty would be nice at all. It is pathetic.

[hifiguy]

60. Projection is not a pretty thing.

Bye.

[redqueen]

64. Oh I'm sorry, did I personally attack you?

Did I make this personal and about you? No, that was all you.

redqueen "out"

[hifiguy]

149. I have finally realized that.

That I am adamantly pro-choice, pro-access to contraceptives, pro-equality for women's healthcare, pro-Paycheck Protection Act, pro-ERA, pro-LGBT rights, pro-marriage equality aand pro-every imaginable progressive position is meaningless to these disruptors. Somehow I an oppressor. They make DU a less hospitable place and I dearly wish Skinner would TS the lot of them. They add nothing and sow division with their paranoid focus on the demons they see on the insides of their eyelids. Sigh.

They suck. Big time. I am so sick of these assholes.

ETA: So you got Harmony Blue's ultra-truthful post hidden. Well, bully for you. Goons are goons, whether Pinkertons in the 1930s or on DU now.

[demmiblue]

154. "But the vitriol, bile and sheer nastiness of most of these "comments" is beyond disturbing."

[hifiguy]

158. Ha ha

Yeah, I am a fucking monster while supporting all the women's issues actually in front of the govervment. Fail. Sod off in perpetuity.

[demmiblue]

162. Sucks to be you when you realize that you are just like them. n/t

[sufrommich]

156. A jury allowed this. I have never seen such personal vitriol spewed

at the outspoken feminists on this board, they are treated as if the were the lowest scum on Earth and it's allowed over and over again. I can't imagine any other group on this board being treated like this and getting away with it. The clear message to feminists is "it's better to go along to get along".Shame on DU, and shame on the jury who allowed this shit.

[dionysus]

18. fascinating in the fact that such an innocuous video can bring out such levels of hatred.

then again, you could post a video of a kitten on youtube with no description and you'd find similar leels of hatred.

youtube comments section are worse than the infamous yahoo chat could ever be as far as stupid and disgusting comments go...

[redqueen]

19. Google 'women bloggers sexist abuse'. This is not a youtube thing. nt

[Posteritatis]

68. Emphatically agreed. (nt)

[malthaussen]

73. I disagree with the apparent equivalency

I read a lot of YouTube comments, and sure, just about everything will produce some vitriol. But not to the extremes of this proposal, nor with the unanimity of bile this proposal has evoked. This has struck quite a deeper nerve than any kitten ever would.

-- Mal

[jeff47]

15. You're talking about a group that has little social skills and you're threating

their primary escape from the world where the jocks get all the hot chicks. At least, if we're to believe the stereotype.

Your typical hardcore teenage gamer isn't going to parties because they don't have the social skills to be in the "in" crowd. So they play games that spend a lot of time building up your ego because you're the savior of the kingdom/world/galaxy. Being good at games also gives them an area where they finally excel compared to normal people. It's a pedestal similar to the star football player. And there's hot virtual chicks fawning over you when you feel that real life women aren't at all interested in you. It's essentially the inverse of their normal life and a powerful escape.

I know it was fantastic when I was a geeky teenager with very few friends and was utterly convinced I was unappealing to the opposite sex because I wasn't a jock.

Projects like this threaten that world. You're basically threatening to take away drugs from drug addicts - they're going to lash out. (And I don't mean it's addictive like drugs. It's an escape like a high is.)

If there's any consolation, the vast majority of typical hardcore teenage gamers are only delayed in social development, not crippled in social development. They'll pull their head out of their ass during their 20s, return to being a "normal" human being, have a normal life. And Laura Croft having a large rack will not be a good enough reason to play a game.

[hifiguy]

17. ^^^^^

THIS.

[redqueen]

22. Great post.

I'd like to call special attention to the phrase "get all the hot chicks"... that mindset is the result of years of conditioning boys to see girls as acquisitions. Things to be won.

That is what we have to challenge constantly until it stops. Some of these men, when they realize they're not going to get that prize they feel entitled to, end up joining hate groups or worse.

This is a snapshot of the hate that is out there. Just a brief glimpse.

Ignoring this will ensure it only gets worse.

[jeff47]

31. I think primarily we need to talk to the "non-jock" teenagers

If the teenagers of both genders who assume they aren't "good enough" actually tried to get dates, they'd find they were "good enough". That would do an enormous amount of good destroying pedestals and learning that the other gender isn't so different. And that will make bigotry seem dumb.

I don't think it will take any sort of challenge/confrontation. It'll take getting these kids to take the first steps to build their "date-ability" self-esteem. Everything else will flow naturally from there as they interact with actual people of the opposite gender.

Speaking of this phenomenon as a whole, the vast majority of this isn't coming from adult gamers. It's the teenagers. And they aren't done growing yet. They need to be steered, not confronted.

As for getting worse, it's not going to. Because the game developers still need to keep the adults buying and playing their games. Also, game developers have realized women like games too, and turning them off is a bad business decision.

Think of it this way, the most horrifically misogynistic game in the last 10 years was Duke Nukem Forever. It tanked. Because of the misogyny.

[redqueen]

34. I was referring to society as a whole,

not just video game culture. This is just one example of the wider rape culture we live in.

[Posteritatis]

48. The "typical" video gamer these days is actually somewhere in their thirties

At least going by pretty much any look into the demographics of that population over the last several years. The last ESA survey last year figured mid-thirties with about a 60/40 split between male and female gamers, though the specific breakdowns would change a lot once you go into genres, platforms, etc - for example, MMORPG gamers tend to average closer to the mid-twenties instead of the mid-thirties, and more grognardy strategy gamers are more likely to be jerks on political grounds instead of "just" being violently misogynistic.

The main demographic is still mostly the population that started playing them back in the eighties and early nineties, and things have generally moved along with that group. It's one of the reasons so many big-name titles these days are rather more adult-oriented than they would've been fifteen years ago. I'm thirty-one, have followed that sort of thing as a hobby long enough that I'm dabbling in design on a professional-on-the-side level, and have definitely been seeing how things shift that way over the years. (I'm also very much at the younger end of the age range for the genres I most enjoy playing.)

There's problems in that culture to say the very least, but approaching them from the perspective that "gamers are all nerdy teenagers who play games sixteen hours a day" is both inaccurate - and has been for a long time, a fact that is consciously ignored - and unhelpful. It's a rather larger-scale set of issues and not one that can just be blown off with the "lol, stupid kids" handwave.

If anything the demographics make the kind of reaction in the OP more rather than less distressing, because a lot of the problem is, in fact, coming from people you'd otherwise consider "normal human beings having a normal life" who've passed the head-out-the-ass threshold. If it actually was just kids then it would be a lot easier to dismiss as people who'd eventually grow up, but a lot of the problems, between the players themselves and the industry itself, are coming from people who - in theory - have done so by now.

[redqueen]

52. Thank you so much for challenging the 'it's just kids' claim. nt

[Posteritatis]

66. Yeah. It really isn't, and I don't believe it is even in an extreme case like this.

A few looks into some of the gaming subcultures you'll find on 4chan or Reddit will get you some viewpoints that would make even a typical freeper blush, and they'd be often coming from people closer to my age than a high schooler's.

[redqueen]

69. And sadly many liberals don't think it's a big deal. Just ensure boys get dates,

and everything will be awesome.

[Posteritatis]

74. Good catch; that whole angle's got its own barrel of problems to it, doesn't it? (nt)

[redqueen]

78. In a maior, major way.

It is fucking painful to think about.

[jeff47]

54. You will note I explicitly stated "teenager".

That wasn't because I was claiming all gamers are kids. I was talking about a specific subset of gamers. That's why I bothered typing a qualifier over and over again.

If anything the demographics make the kind of reaction in the OP more rather than less distressing, because a lot of the problem is, in fact, coming from people you'd otherwise consider "normal human beings having a normal life" who've passed the head-out-the-ass threshold.

Only if you assume the comments are coming from all gamers. I'm not. Which is why I typed the word teenager over and over again.

Anyone who's spent any significant amount of time in gamer culture, or just logged into an MMO for a while, will recognize the massive misogyny mostly comes from the younger gamers. There's little reason to believe that they don't make up the majority of the horrible comments.

It's one of the reasons so many big-name titles these days are rather more adult-oriented than they would've been fifteen years ago.

False. Some examples:
Leisure Suit Larry used to be a big-name title. They don't make those anymore.
Diablo I (1996): Succubi are topless. Diablo II (2000): Succubi are topless and gain nipples. Diablo III (2012): Succubi wear shirts.
"Hot Coffee" was struck from GTA:SA's release. Yes, a hack could re-enable it, but the developer didn't want it in the final game.
Duke Nukem Forever was a massive flop.

Big name titles have pulled back from "adult" themes in order to better market themselves towards women and older gamers. There's a niche like DOA's "volleyball" games, but that's aimed squarely at the teenage boys and isn't anywhere close to a "big-name title" in sales or development effort.

[hfojvt]

35. I think I see the problem

Last edited Fri Jun 15, 2012, 02:08 PM - Edit history (1)

This is what those guys are thinking (IMO)

First of all she looks like another attractive woman who would turn me down.

So I already hate her.

Secondly, you mess with or criticize my favorite video game at your peril. Touch it, or even look at it wrong, and me and my sexy sidekick will KICK YOUR A$$.

Third, I am anonymous here with no penalties at all for saying any old mean thing that pops into my head. Considering the frustrations of an average life, I can feel better about myself if I get a few good licks in AT A DESERVING TARGET. "He shoots, he scores!!!" Take that, you evil old world, Charlie Brown strikes back!

Fourth "I like those ear-rings Claire, did you WORK for the money to buy those? ..." or do you make a good living by sitting in front of a camera and begging for money on the internets?

[redqueen]

36. What the actual fuck.

" First of all she looks like another attractive woman who would turn me down.

So I already hate her."

Explain that. Please illuminate us as to how that's anything but abhorrent misogynist hate speech.

[hfojvt]

37. first of all, I am trying to explain what the commenters are thinking

I don't play video games, not now, although I used to play "escape from Wolfenstein" when it came on a used computer I bought from the Discovery Shop. I probably would still play it some if that computer still worked.

BUT

I can understand how people might be defensive about their favorite games.

I can also understand how some people might react to rejection.

But that's not misogynism because it would only be hatred of attractive women, and not all women.

Morrison explained it thus

"People are strange
when you're a stranger
faces look ugly
when you're alone
women seem wicked
when you're unwanted
streets are all evil
when you're down"

I speculate thus - many people have experienced a lot of rejection - and it has made them hateful and bitter. Thus, the hateful comments they make anonymously at their perceived enemy. I can understand that, because I, myself, have experience a lot of rejection.

[redqueen]

44. IMO it is misogyny. What if I said 'that ethnic person looks like (fill in the rationalization)

so I hate them already.' Is that any less racist simply because I qualified the prejudice with some idiotic disclaimer?

That mindset is an example of male entitlement. Expecting attractive women to like you, and hating them if they don't, is yet another manifestation of the same entitlement I described earlier.

[hfojvt]

70. I cannot see how that would fit

If I say, for example, that I hate Lebron James because he looks like an arrogant thug, how can that be racism? It doesn't apply to the jocks that I like, such as Dr. J, or Desmond Howard, or Michael Jordan, or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, or Sugar-Ray Leonard, etc.

Or even if I was to say that I hate Lebron because he's a jock, and I hate jocks because they pound on wimpy little nerds like me and take all the attractive women, that still wouldn't be racism because there are black people who are not primarily jocks, like Bill Cosby (wait, he plays tennis) and Barack Obama (whoops, basketball) and Henry Louis Gates.

It might be bigotry towards jocks, or in this case, bigotry towards the beautiful people, but it does not translate into the larger bigotry.

As far as entitlement goes, I think that probably works both ways. According to my uncle, who has done far more dating than myself, "women do not like it when you break up with them", and I have seen unattractive women all googly over these studly guys at the factory where I worked.

For some reason, you do not understand the social dynamics, the pyramid of social relations, like this

1
1-1
1-2-1
1-3-3-1
1-4-6-4-1
1-5-10-10-5-1

With the "beautiful people" at the top, looking down their noses at the mass of the rest of us serfs as if we are subhumans not fit for any use other than as a doormat or a foil for jokes. Sometimes, some of the peasants get resentful.

I just have my doubts that their hateful comments are coming from happy, fulfilling lives.

[redqueen]

79. Its the basis for the hate.

Women are people (an oppressed class of people), not a group of people who share a profession or hobby. like 'jocks'.

[hfojvt]

82. but "attractive young women" are a group of people

who share a characteristic, one that is not shared by every one in the larger class of "women".

Further, she may be perceived to be in a smaller (smaller than the larger group since presumably not all attractive women are feminists) group - attractive feminist women. A group, which is seen, by them, as rejecting all men. After all, a "woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle." In other words, "as far as we are concerned, men are useless to us." Or perhaps even "worse than useless" since they are apparently the ones oppressing us.

Myself, I do not believe women are an oppressed class. I worry more about my nephews than I do about my nieces. My nieces are beautiful young women, men will knock down doors for them and sprinkle rose petals at their feet. My nephews, otoh, I worry, could end up like me, unmarried, childless, living alone, working menail jobs for low pay, or like my brother, sorta unhappily married, working a good job with lots of stress and still barely treading water financially.

[Posteritatis]

85. "I do not believe women are an oppressed class." ... Wow. (nt)

[redqueen]

89. Ah, but women stand a statistically much higher chance of being sexually assaulted,

by those same men who throw metaphorical petals at their feet.

Both sexes face dangers. Your neices are in danger of being legislated into a position where they are disposable should the choice between them and the fetus inside them ever arises. Or being imprisoned for falling down the stairs while pregnant. Etc etc etc


Oh and no, it isn't 'men' oppressing women. It's many men and many women too. Anyone who defends the patriarchal society we seem to be stuck in is oppressing women, and not doing men many favors either, as they are boxed in and messed up by the crap as well.

[hfojvt]

96. yet of the women I know best

two grandmothers, a mom, three sisters, nieces ages 32,26, 21, 19, and 18, 5 cousins on my dad's side and ten on my mom's side, I thankfully do not know of even one who has been sexually assaulted. Further, in the ten years I have lived in this city, I have heard of about six homicides and scores of armed robberies but sexual assaults are not making the news.

Also, a person hopes those things never happen. My grandmothers produced 12 babies and my aunts another 33 and my sisters another 7 without too many problems although my baby sister had two C-sections and my cousin had twins.

And most men are probably gonna defend the patriarchy without even thinking about it, and many who do think about it may be some of the strongest defenders.

[Posteritatis]

97. Yay, anecdata! (nt)

[MadrasT]

100. How do you know?

No one in my family knows I was raped. It's not the kind of thing that comes up at Thanksgiving dinner. I have no idea if most of my female relatives and friends were ever raped.

We don't wear signs you know.

[Dash87]

141. That is also wrong. Beauty has nothing to do with living a happy life,

nor does marriage.

Many women also fit the description you listed: Many are miserable, in terrible marriages, and work terrible jobs (which they also get paid less than men do for). It's just the world we live in.

[girl gone mad]

163. "men will knock down doors for them and sprinkle rose petals at their feet"

LOL. Hope their parents are smarter than you.

[Dash87]

137. That's very superficial, hfojvt.

Having a beautiful mind, spirit, and body are not mutually exclusive.

I agree with your last sentence, though.

[hifiguy]

38. Sarcasm is apparently lost on you.

The poster was speaking in the voice of the "commenters" in the OP.

[redqueen]

45. Yes, roll your eyes. I have absolutely no reason to think it might have been their opinion.

Such sexist assholery is NEVER seen on DU.

back at you.

[hifiguy]

47. Post 37 proves me 100% right.

Not that you'd ever admit that.

[redqueen]

55. Fucking duh.

Any more glaringly obvious distractions you'd like to blather about as a means of avoiding the defense of Maher and Moore in their use of misogynist slurs? Convenient, that.

[hifiguy]

58. You didn't seem to realize it in your

vitriolic response to hfojvt, in which you attacked him or her. And what do Bill Maher and Michael Moore have to do with the original post anyway? Thread derailing is not my specialty.

[redqueen]

62. Quote my "attack".

YOU asked why I distanced myself from liberals. THAT is how Maher, Moore, Hefner, and Flynt came into it.

[hifiguy]

65. OK.

"What the actual fuck.

" First of all she looks like another attractive woman who would turn me down.

So I already hate her."

Explain that. Please illuminate us as to how that's anything but abhorrent misogynist hate speech. "

emphasis added

You accused the poster of hate speech. That, in my book, is an attack. Have the common decency to admit you were wrong about the post you were criticizing. "Ready, fire, aim" is not cool when addressing other longtime DUers.

And the day "liberal" becomes an epithet on DU is a sad, sorry day indeed.

[redqueen]

75. I'm done helping you make this discussion about me nt

[redqueen]

67. More ROFLing... asking for an explanation, PLEASE

is a vitriolic response.

Here's a clue: that was shock ('what the actual fuck'), not vitriol. The rest of my post was hardly an "attack".

[hifiguy]

72. If it looks like an accusation and

quacks like an accusation it is an accusation.

[hfojvt]

84. but I could have made that clearer

which I did later.

It is not completely obvious that "I" does not mean me.

[hifiguy]

87. It was to me.

I never attributed those thoughts to you for a nanosecond.

[Posteritatis]

50. You do know that poster's describing a thought process rather than giving their own, right? (nt)

[redqueen]

59. Just making sure. There is so much misogyny on this site,

it isn't something I assume.

[Posteritatis]

71. It's kind of depressing that the ambiguity's even a little there, yeah.

I mean, the poster could've been a little clearer maybe, but it was obvious enough to me that he was talking as a third person rather than himself.

I've also got a few "HULK SMASH!" buttons myself that I know I react, ah, imperfectly to if things are even a little ambiguous along those lines though. Ugh.

[redqueen]

77. Please allow me to apologize

for attacking you.

I did not mean to, but apparently it was perceived that way by someone else, so just in case you agree with that person, I do apologize to you.

[hfojvt]

83. no worries

we are old friends, are we not, even though I sometimes say things that make you want to slap my fat face.

It would not be the first time. I once made the top ten list of anti-women DUers for my foolish forays into the women's issues forum and I probably am a Mr.A.

But you know I would knock down doors for you and sprinkle rose petals at your feet.

Metaphorically anyway, since I am physically incapable of knocking down most doors or growing roses. My lilacs, however, are coming along, and one butterfly bush is huge (one other died and another one got pulled up by vandals).

[redqueen]

88. Don't be silly,

You'd have to get extremely hateful towards me or my girls for me to want to slap you, and I don't think you have that kind of ugliness in you.

As you said we are old friends despite our disagreements. It's nice to know some people can disagree without being personally insulting or hateful toward one another.

Do you ever post in the gardening group? I lurk there sometimes, you might share pics of your lilacs there.

[Posteritatis]

40. My guess is her stuff wound up on 4chan or reddit and the usual response ensued. (nt)

[Blue_Tires]

46. The almost all of them are anti-social cowards

who wouldn't say these things to a woman IRL if their life depended on it...

[Harmony Blue]

120. Gamers aren't social cowards

Gamers tend to play games with their friends, families, or online friends. Entire communities are built just like forums are. Furthermore these "vile" gamers are the demographic that is spear heading gay marriage, legalization of marijuana, ending senseless wars, equal pay for women, etc.

I could go on, but it is clear that the gaming generation is the one that will bring positive change to the country. Cowards, are those who believe gaming is the problem with all the ills of the world. Tipper Gore's infamous legacy isn't forgotten.

[malthaussen]

61. She's a bolshevist nazi jew lesbian, didn't you see?

Something for everyone!

That is a real jaw-dropper. IMO, she's earned every nickel she's gotten from the Kickstart, just by having to put up with all that crap.

-- Mal

[hifiguy]

80. Agreed.

It's like the Freepers and Stormfronters all escaped from their cages en masse save for a couple of intelligent dissenters. With enemies like that, she has to be doing something right.

[malthaussen]

81. They totally missed that her name is Armenian

... guess they aren't fully up on their "people to slur" handbook.

-- Mal

[redqueen]

7. Here's a blog post about the same issue.

It also has links to other blogs.

http://critdamage.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/quit-pretending-there-isnt-videogame.html

[Archae]

9. Games vary wildly.

"Tomb Raider" and "Portal" have female lead characters.

"Skylanders" have nearly equal male and female characters.

The "DOA" series uses female fighters, yes, I know they show a lot of cleavage and whatnot. (Especially the "beach volleyball" games in that series.)

The Lego videogames use male and female characters interchangeably, of course, it's not always easy to tell the difference with Lego people.

[redqueen]

10. And here's anither article about the misogynist reaction to this woman...

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/internet/2012/06/dear-internet-why-you-cant-have-anything-nice

[dionysus]

16. egads... lots of angry lads who can't find a date harshing on that poor lady...

[redqueen]

24. They are attacking her.

Perhaps 'harshing on' is synonymous with making threats, vile misogynist attacks, attempting to sabotage her kickstarter page, etc. It seems far too euphemistic a term at first glance.

[Harmony Blue]

26. She attacked first

so this is reciprocation.

This is the danger by starting with an extreme position, because the reaction will be extreme. This is why I don't respect feminists that are divisive.

[redqueen]

27. Quote an example of her "attacking".

Feminists have to be divisive. Look where playing nice has brought us.

[seabeyond]

28. it seems devisive may simply be speaking out against misogynit behavior. bad feminist, how dare

you speak up and out against hate.

[Harmony Blue]

30. Speaking out using extreme, inaccurate, and inflammatory language

suggests you are intellectually bankrupt.

[redqueen]

63. Calling that language extreme, inflammatory, or inaccurate suggests you don't understand

or are in denial about this issue.

[Harmony Blue]

121. You didn't bother reading my post

which suggests you are not interested in an honest discussion. I already explained how the title could have been written to be more accurate (Over sexualization or Misogynistic, etc). Using Rape pretty much forces people to tune out any argument you bring forth. The shock value doesn't outweigh the content or truth of the argument as it loses momentum.

[seabeyond]

136. ha ha. surely you jest. there are poster i simply do not waste my time with. nt

[Harmony Blue]

29. "Video Game Rape Culture" That is inflammtory and a direct attack towards gaming culture

Divisiveness is what bigots do by the way. Those seeking truth and honest discussion are inclusive and don't view it as "war" or sides to be chosen. If the title was " Over sexualization of women in gaming culture" then it would be accurate and honest.

I remember the attacks towards gaming culture when it came to "violence" in the 90's by Tipper Gore. Ironically, because of her actions, gaming become more violent.

I also remember the attacks on Dungeons and Dragons.

[redqueen]

33. So the way this is labeled is somehow an attack on par with the response?

Fucking seriously?

Also have you read ANY of the stuff that's been posted here?


How about you take a gander at this: http://fatuglyorslutty.com/

If you can read these discussions at these blogs and jot see it as RAPE CULTURE then we have nothing to discuss.

[lapislzi]

42. Wish I could rec your response

god forbid someone should actually call out rape culture for what it is. That might make some men, you know, accountable. Can't have that.

[Harmony Blue]

118. Thank you for confirming you are out of touch with reality

You should be deeply ashamed believing equating gaming as a rape culture is a valid critique. Rape is a severe physical and mental attack on ones privacy.

When I hear a child use the word rape inappropriately when they win a game of bingo lopsidedly I correct them that is not appropriate. Just because you are a woman you do not have right to misuse the word rape either to further your jaded agenda.

[hifiguy]

125. There are those who scream "rape culture" at everything

they find aesthetically disagreeable are exploitation pimps. Do I agree with them to some greater degree when that epithet is applied to Hustler? I do. Where I decisively part company is the issue of whether media images should be regarded as images that reflect reality. Hustler presents itself as realistic when few things are further from the truth.

When I was a boy I loved the Three Stooges - I still love the Three Stooges. My mom explained to me that the Three Stooges weren't real and for that reason I couldn't whack obnoxious little Stevie Swanson next door on the head with a hammer and expect to hear the same "bong" as when Moe hit Curly. From that point forward I didn't have a lot of trouble distinguishing movie fantasy from reality.

Surrogate realities, be they films, video games or whatever, are not reality. Those who believe they are real are responsible for their own delusions. Video games are the ultimate unreality and people who believe they are real are mentally diseased.

[redqueen]

128. Just because you and a few others wish to ignore reality, sugar coat it, etc.

that doesn't change anything.

You're all welcome to continue ignoring it. Enjoy your privilege.

[Posteritatis]

41. The reaction she's gotten demonstrates the accuracy of her viewpoint. (nt)

[Harmony Blue]

119. These radical feminists believe all men are rapists

why wouldn't any rational male disagree with that broad brush stroke? Martin Luther King, Jesus, Buddha, Socrates embraced understanding by trying to inclusive not decisive. These radical feminists are stuck in time warp and they have missed what has happened since then. They view this struggle as a "war". Hard to speak rationally to them when they don't seek understanding and their jaded view point skews the truth that is right in front of them.

Truth can not be found with extreme, inaccurate rhetoric. It is a gimmick and a ploy to provoke a response. A racy title lead to racy response. Water is wet, and it is dark at night.

[redqueen]

129. LOL nt

[hifiguy]

133. Thank you, HB.

At long last a voice of reason. Paranoia serves no cause well.

[seabeyond]

151. "These radical feminists believe all men are rapists" you would be wrong

but dont let honesty get in your way

[seabeyond]

161. you dont get to make things up and call it a reality then accuse people of it. that is the bullshit

that. is. a. lie.

now, if you would like to know what was said, i would be more than happy to discuss in a calm, reasoned fashion without the hysterics and vapors

[sufrommich]

157. No, they don't. Jesus, it like the Rush Limbaugh

Show around here.

[Odin2005]

106. Fuck "Gaming Culture".

And I'm a male gamer. I can't stand playing most online games because a lot of the other gamers seem to be emotionally immature assholes.

And comparing this to the anti-video-game hysteria of the early 90s is simply idiotic.

[LanternWaste]

32. Many truths are indeed extreme, but that does not in fact mean those truths should be suppressed.

Many truths are indeed extreme and divisive, but that does not in fact mean those truths should be suppressed.

[hifiguy]

39. She didn't attack anyone.

Stating a proposition which may, or may not, be dubious is not an attack, for pete's sake. The attacking was done by the commenters, whom I would guess were overwhelmingly male nerds between the ages of 16 and 25.

[dionysus]

93. you're looking for disagreement where there is none.

[2ndAmForComputers]

95. You committed the Unforgivable Sin of Insufficient Rage.

Burn the MRA! BUUUURRRRRRNNNNN!!!!!!

[redqueen]

98. Clarifying terms is not "looking for disagreement". nt

[dionysus]

103. fair enough. "harshing on" in this case means being complete, total assholes.

[redqueen]

104. Cool beans.

When I've heard that term used it's more like someone just being annoying. Harshing my mellow, man. That kinda thing. So I was puzzled to see it, that's all.

[lapislzi]

43. It never fails: the Confucian proposition

The person who strikes first admits that their ideas have given out.

Striking first in this case being jumping off the blocks with ad hominem, "you're ugly," and "you're a slut"--ALWAYS the "go to" insults for men who can't discuss ideas about gender in a rational manner.

If you can't speak to the merits, call the woman a slut.

[Taverner]

86. If you ask me, she just pointed to an open market

Women play video games just as much as men do

So why are they ALL male oriented?

[redqueen]

90. They're not, and it is changing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/dec/08/women-videogames-designing-writing


But this stuff still has to be addressed. Check out this site if you need to know why.
http://fatuglyorslutty.com/

[Taverner]

91. I guess the question I have is: What would a women-oriented video game look like?

[malthaussen]

92. Judging from the content of the bodice-ripper genre

... in which the writers are almost all women, and the readership likewise, worse than the male-oriented ones.

Which is not to dispute the "rape culture" trope. In fact, it rather reinforces it.

-- Mal

[redqueen]

113. So you didn't read the article.

Anyway, it would look different. With more well-rounded female characters... as opposed to women as decorations, sidekicks, damsels in distress, etc. Surprise, surprise.

[Taverner]

124. I read it - you don't have to snark

[hifiguy]

126. Snark is the only thing the radfems can bring

They either deny their own words when you quote back to them, much like Mittens, or they change the subject. When you define words in your own way, the secret code of which is not available to outsiders, it seems to be easier to avoid rational argument or being PPRd. Reichwingers are also adept at redefining words to serve their purposes, words like "freedom" and "liberty." I regret to inform DU of this, but disgreement with certain DUers about the meaning of a word like "misogyny" does not make one a Freeper or a dominionist.

What infuriates me is that I am on the same side as many of these individuals on the issues that COUNT in the real world - equitable access to contraception, freedom of choice, the Paycheck Protection Act, the ERA for pete's sake, but because I am a civil libertarian I am an arch-demon.

NB. I am NOT calling out any individual DUer.

Good freaking night.

[redqueen]

131. LOL! Thanks for educating us all about which issues COUNT.

It's so helpful for us poor wimminz when men tell us all about what really matters when it comes to feminism.

Our poor radical ladybrains just aren't capable of sorting these things out.

[Taverner]

155. I don't think it's the "radical" part that is causing the problem

But more personal issues over disagreements. I am fairly outspoken about my belief in sex-positive feminism and anti-Dworkinism. She knows this, and hates me because of it. She hates having to admit that you and I are both feminists.

[keroro gunsou]

135. not to burst your bubble...

but i've played several games with strong female characters. final fantasy 6 comes immediately to mind. sure, there are story driven moments where they fall into the trope of the distressed dame, but in the end, they kick as much, if not more ass than the male characters. chrono trigger has a trio of strong female characters, who literally move heaven and earth to save their friend and the world.

and for all the pooh poohing over lara croft's physical appearance, i'd argue that she's a very strong female character. i for one wouldn't put up with 1 scintilla of what she goes through... albiet virtually. i've only played 2 of the tomb raider games, and i don't recall a situation where lara croft fell back on using her looks or attributes to get what she wants.

that said, yes, many gamers out there are assholes. the good news is most of them grow out of it. there are several online communities that are trying to bring peer pressure to bear to get some of the more moronic to grow up and act right, but it's an uphill battle.

there of plenty of female gamers, just not many females who develop games. the guilds i belonged to in world of warcraft and final fantasy 11 were dominated by ladies. in some cases they were just as big of a bunch of assholes as the males i played with....

gender is no defense if the game sucks. i've played some truly horrible games developed by men. would women devs have done any better? who knows.

i guess it takes all kinds... YMMV

[Rex]

94. It is really simple, there is always someone better then you out there

in the world. No matter what it is, someone does it better, faster, etc..

NOW, some people can handle this simple concept and some cannot. Those that cannot are the HATERS in this world and are the majority of idiots replying to this wonderfully crafted peice of media.

BRAVA Anita Sarkeesian, keep doing a wonderful job!


To STRESS her point further - Skyrim - Elder Scrolls V - has a mod that allows you to strip the characters of their clothing...no wait, not exactly - only the women characters, males still have on a loincloth. Now why is that?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

99. My girlfriend is a hardcore gamer and says this cartoon just about sums it up

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/online_gaming

[malthaussen]

101. Best laugh I've had all day. n/t

[Odin2005]

107. Stealing, LMFAO!!!

[Ohio Joe]

102. Hi, I'm Joe, A Host of DU's Gaming Group...

I love gaming... I've been a gamer for many years. I started back on the Atari 800XL with a cassette drive, playing some great old stuff like Telengard... Been doing it ever since... And what we have here is one of the things that infuriates me about the industry. It is something I simply do not understand how it ever got beyond the Leisure Suit Larry game and yet... Not only has it never gone away, exactly the opposite, it has only grown and gotten worse and worse.

This though... I'm ashamed and embarrassed by it. I read this earlier today at work, along with a number of other articles/opinion's on this and I'm seeing far too much excuse making that this occurred on you-tube, so the comments do not really reflect gamers thoughts. The excuses are all bullshit, there is no excuse for shit like this. Even if by some miracle, every one of the vile replies was from non-gamers (That a good number of them are gamers is my belief), they are still only a small part of the problem... The real problem is what the project Anita Sarkeesian is trying to complete is all about.

The project is down to it's last few hours to get funding, it's over tonight. Take a look at her video and if you can give to help her out. I completely support her effort.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games

[redqueen]

114. She has $155,946 towards a requested $6,000

That figure has more than doubled in a few days.

It appears you and I and ... even a few other DUers, it seems... think that this is actually an important topic.

Imagine that.

[malthaussen]

117. Justice is sweet, but rarely so quick.

Now, if only there were some way for all the haters to have to look at that figure -- can you imagine how much it would grind their souls?

-- Mal

[Posteritatis]

130. They're certainly throwing tantrums all over the news articles mentioning it.

Most articles I've seen about this whole mess in the last day or so involve the crowd involved in the Youtube/Wikipedia harassment moving to their comment sections instead.

They're ... kinda determined.

[seabeyond]

152. my husband loves it like you. and feels the same. nt

[Odin2005]

105. Men who are hardcore gamers are not the most emotionally mature bunch.

So this misogynistic shit does not surprise me, sadly. Bunch of men-children enraged because they are losers who are not getting any.

[malthaussen]

108. Well, "harcore gamer" is a pretty pathetic self-identification, wouldn't you think?

But then, in America it is considered somehow commendable to be serious about play.

-- Mal

[Posteritatis]

109. Oh yeah, because that's a mindset exclusive to the US or something. (nt)

[malthaussen]

111. Couldn't say, I only know the USA n/t

[redqueen]

115. Wow. nt

[Odin2005]

110. American? Ever read about South Korean gamers?

Those guys are really F-ed up.

[malthaussen]

112. No, I haven't.

I only specified "America" because I was speaking of my own knowledge. Looks like retribution has followed swiftly, though.

The point still stands. Personally, I cringe whenever I see the phrase "hardcore gamer." It's as bad an oxymoron as "Final Fantasy XIII."

-- Mal

[Harmony Blue]

123. South Korean gamers

are able to produce income. How is this wrong being able to make money doing something you enjoy? It appears DU has too many old farts that simply "don't get gaming culture".

It is okay. You can thank that gaming culture for the positiive progressive future this country will have in due time.

[NuttyFluffers]

127. having lived in S. Korea, outside of a few outliers, most gamers there are pretty much normal.

just like most of our gamers here in USA are normal. the only real difference is that the pop culture has embraced gaming as socially acceptable and worthwhile of being a national sport of sorts. sorta like how comic books in Japan are not seen solely the purview of nerdy teenagers. USA has its own complexes about gamers and their past times, but overall they are as harmless as any other hobbyist group.

and no, looking to the internet is not a great way to get any sort of non-hostile, non-vitriolic reception -- for just about everything. those comments are about as representative as any Yahoo article or political posting without standing moderators. humanity + anonymity = raging asshole. you're gonna see the worst, there's nothing to socially glean from this sort of data. everyone here is wasting their time trying to read more into it.

[RedCappedBandit]

148. No less pathetic than taking any other hobby seriously. nt

[keroro gunsou]

138. um...

i beg your pardon, i AM a hardcore gamer, but unlike those you want to lump me in with, i can behave myself and act right. i am also quite respectful to women, both in the real world and online. and i am getting some. so kindly take that broad-brushed analogy and stuff it.

[Odin2005]

142. I didn't mean ALL of you, I meant the typical one!

I'm a gamer, myself, though i would not call myself a hard-core one. I prefer to spend my money on books than the latest gadgets, and so I use an emulator to play all the old console games.

[keroro gunsou]

144. alrighty then!

request to stuff it has been withdrawn, presidential pardons all around!

[seabeyond]

153. my husband games with people all over, in canada. they have one mouth.

there are a lot of "grown ups" that just want to play a game.

[joshcryer]

132. Internet anonymity is a blast.

[keroro gunsou]

139. it's the GIFT

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GIFT

[joshcryer]

140. Yep.

Stopped posting anonymously a long time ago, I own every word I write, so if I'm a fuckwad, well, yeah.

[keroro gunsou]

143. wasn't complaining

just trying to explain why some gamers act like immature assholes that's all... ^_^;

[joshcryer]

145. Oh! I got you. I was just admitting that I can be a really bad fuckwad when posting anonymously!

I love dark humor for instance and I'll post jokes from time to time on Facebook that could get me in deep shit here. If I was an anonymous poster I'd be all over the internet making stupid jokes and trolling and just having fun, but I've matured a lot.

[RedCappedBandit]

147. These comments do NOT represent gamers.

They represent our culture as a whole, perhaps. The result of immature misogynist cowards who are exploiting their anonymity by trolling around the internet because they have nothing better to do with their time.

Gamers, as in quiet shy-guy nerds who like d&d and magic cards? I don't personally know a single one who would spew vitriol such as that in the OP. It's unfortunate that we are being associated with trolls, imo. I wish gaming never became so mainstream.

My friends who I would consider 'gamers' are actually the kindest, most intellectually aware people I know. That isn't to say all gamers are, though.. the community definitely has it's own fair share of right wing bigoted asshats as well as any community.

[Mr.Turnip]

150. Yeah im a gamer, these comments have less to do with gaming and more to with the internet

The Internet is NOT a place you go looking for rational responses, especially sites like Youtube. People know there are no consequences for what they say on the net so you can have people who seem perfectly decent in person morph into crazed assholes.