"Organic" is a scam, here's an example...

[Archae]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12315194

(From their web site)

"Based in Montreal, Canada, Pasta Oggi produces organic, gluten and peanut free, kosher fresh frozen pastas across Canada and the United States. Going above and beyond, we are also Vegetarian and Vegan certified, and GMO-free."

Guess what! Yup, they charge 2-3 times what national pasta brands cost.

Like I said, "organic" is a scam.

[1939]

1. If you want "special"

you pay "special".

If I call it "artisinal" I could increase the price even more.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

2. If you changed your business name from "1939 Diner" to "1939 Bistro" ...

... you can double your prices and have lines out the door.

Who wouldn't want to eat lunch at a "Bistro"?

[1939]

6. Same thing with buying a beer

[Jeffersons Ghost]

118. GRAPHIC, Organic Trump imagery and news...

Last edited Tue Jul 19, 2016, 11:37 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3180201/Trump-defends-big-game-hunting-sons-shamed-Twitter-posing-trophy-kills-including-leopard-elephant-death-Cecil-lion.html

Trump Defends His Sons' Sick Hobby Of Killing Innocent Animals
The killing of a beloved lion named Cecil by a trophy hunting dentist from Minnesota has an outraged American public asking: What kind of monsters would kill a majestic big cat for fun?

Unfortunately for one Republican presidential hopeful, the answer is: his sons. https://www.thedodo.com/trump-speaks-on-sons-hunting-1275724124.html

[alain2112]

305. Yeah, right

Blatant, over-the-top racism is the only reason that anyone might possibly laugh at your little food superstitions.

[yeoman6987]

65. I only buy one product that is organic....milk!

Yes it's very expensive but lasts longer then the crap milk they try to sell.

[Quantess]

119. Milk in the USA tastes awful.

I think it's because of the preservatives or something, in US milk. Milk really does taste better in Europe.

[yeoman6987]

154. I agree

But I have to go farther and say in my opinion everything tastes better in Europe.

[Quantess]

166. Weeell... that's almost like lumping all of the USA into one category.

Produce in California, for example, is no comparison to produce in Wisconsin. I'm sure southern europe has better produce offerings than up here in the north.

Sweden has these pesky regulations about food, which means cheeze puffs are pale, and milk with preservatives is labeled as stays fresh longer. Milk is sold in smaller containers here, not in the giant 2 gallon plastic jugs. I have not read up on it, but I'm also assuming that swedish cows aren't fed the same disgusting antibiotics as most US cows are. Whatever is going on, the dairy products are absolutely better in europe.

[yeoman6987]

173. I've been to every European country but Portugal

I still stand by my original comment.

[Quantess]

177. Okay, I'll take your word for it.

[yeoman6987]

179. Have a great weekend!!!

[Quantess]

264. You too,

[AntiBank]

169. 100 % svensk mjölk från svenska gårdar!!!!

[Quantess]

175. Köp inte ARLA.

I mean it's good quality and all, but
http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/bonderna-lamnar-arla--for-att-overleva/

[AntiBank]

185. I knew you were going to post that when I put the Arla ko pic

Arla is usually the only brand the little indy store right around the corner carries, and we try and support her store versus ICA, Coop, etc. She sometimes gets in Skånemejerier, which I try to buy. They pay the farmers more than Arla.

[Quantess]

213. No problem.

Det var min sambo som först sa till mig att vi skulle undvika ARLA. Han härstammer från Jämtland. De andra märkerna är billigare ändå.

[womanofthehills]

256. the best milk in the USA is not from a corporation but a cooperative

Meet our Farmers

Organic Valley is not a corporation. We’re a cooperative. Owned and run by the farmers who grow the food, who milk the cows, and who bring you your cheese. Which means instead of arguing over how to grow profits, we’re discussing what’s best for our farms, our families and our food.
https://www.organicvalley.coop/our-farmers/

[PatSeg]

273. What a wonderful idea

Cooperatives is a great solution to the issues we've discussed.

I remember milk with cream on the top when I was a child.

[mdbl]

326. been buying Organic Valley for a long time

Great products!

[HuckleB]

339. It's an unethical company.

https://foodscienceinstitute.com/2016/07/19/organic-valley-highlights-inauthenticity-with-the-usual-lies/

https://skepchick.org/2015/01/the-myth-of-the-altruistic-organic-industry/

http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/06/the_lies_that_whole_foods_tells_108701.html

[mdbl]

341. I read your websites

and while I agree that marketing may overstate organic benefits, it doesn't erase the fact that the studies are lacking on both sides of the isle. I will continue to use organics where I can since, they at least right now, still impose certain standards on the farmer in order to call themselves organic. I know the non-organic Ag industry would love to dilute and do away with the designation, which is what might have given rise to those 3 websites to which you link.

[HuckleB]

343. Those standards are arbitrary, and often mean more toxic products being used.

And the whole purpose is to increase profits.

After all, why would anyone want to use more land, and more resources to grow less food? It makes no sense, which is why buying organic products makes no sense if we are hoping to take care of the planet.

[mdbl]

345. Sorry, but I can't take the more toxic comment on face value.

I will have to look into it again. I haven't been watching that closely lately. Last time I read the white papers was 12 years ago.

I do love this statement from one of the websites:

"Yet, why should we expect any better? The Organic Valleys and Whole Foods of the world are talking primarily to an audience that doesn’t understand basic genetics. As the colossal growth of the organic industry demonstrates, it’s easy to manipulate a largely scientifically illiterate public. Companies like this have no choice but to perpetuate a non-evidence-based ideology disguised as fact."

It's easy to accuse the other side of non-evidence-based ideology when there isn't enough evidence on either side. The burden still rests on the chem companies altering our food, IMO.

[HuckleB]

349. In other words, you have a lot to learn about the topic.

Last edited Wed Jul 20, 2016, 07:44 PM - Edit history (1)

All foods are altered, and, in fact, GMOs are altered the least, and we know the exact alterations. Yet, no organic companies are willing to label their mutation bred organisms as such.

Why is that, do you think?

If you don't understand the toxicity issue, well, then you have a whole lot of chemistry in front of you.

FYI:
http://nutritionwonderland.com/2009/12/the-truth-about-organic-farming/

[mdbl]

352. no, in other words, I investigated it 12 years ago and was satisfied

that the Chem industry was screwing my body up. Any other assumptions I can clear up for you?

[HuckleB]

354. LOL!

So you found some web pages that agree with your preconceptions.

That's not investigation.

[mdbl]

353. BTW, I can find a million websites saying Republicans are good

That doesn't make it true.

[HuckleB]

355. So you don't know how think critically?

You don't know how to recognize sources of information as valid and invalid? You think they're all equal?

[mdbl]

356. So, you like being on ignore?

[HuckleB]

340. Organic Valley is unethical to the core.

https://foodscienceinstitute.com/2016/07/19/organic-valley-highlights-inauthenticity-with-the-usual-lies/

https://skepchick.org/2015/01/the-myth-of-the-altruistic-organic-industry/

http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/06/the_lies_that_whole_foods_tells_108701.html

[Darb]

3. Poor logic.

Nobody is forced to buy that shit. So, hence, no scam. There are probably 20 other brands, organic and not, that are on the shelf next to it or readily available nearby. Or you can make your own.

By that logic, every product is a scam. You see, every marketer sings their own praises.

Another question, why did you zero in on the "organic" instead of the "gluten and peanut free"? Or "vegan"?

Just curious.

[kcr]

7. Actually, it's your logic that's flawed.

You seem to think that a scam is defined by whether or not someone is forced to buy something. That's not how it works. Scams are based on fraud and deception. It has nothing to do with whether or not someone was forced into purchasing something.

[KittyWampus]

86. if the pasta is made from organic produce then there is no fraud or deception.

[HuckleB]

90. So you didn't bother to note the company is lying about other issues.

When you don't know the full story, don't comment.

[Jim Beard]

115. Wheat is one of the easiest crops to grow organically.

Frank Ford got rich selling his wheat as organic which it would be anyway without any special effort. On the other hand corn is mor difficult and has different demands.

But now you have to be careful about e.coli. I am glad I got out of the business.

[womanofthehills]

257. The big problem now is that organic wheat is contaminated with glyphosate from drift

Note: Roundup is not allowed on organic so it must be from drift, water, air, etc.

ALERT: Certified Organic Food Grown in U.S. Found Contaminated with Glyphosate Herbicide

However, a new investigation by Tropical Traditions has revealed that the U.S. organic grain market is contaminated with glyphosate.
Tropical Traditions has sold organic grains for years. After reading new research about the issue of “crop desiccation” done by using glyphosate on wheat and other grains just prior to harvest, Tropical Traditions decided to first test some commercial wheat products with wheat grown in Montana, North Dakota, and Canada. They sent the commercial samples to a well-known and respected laboratory to test for glyphosate.

All tested positive for glyphosate residue. The range was from 0.07 mg/kg to 0.09 mg/kg. Keep in mind this is glyphosate found in non-GMO crops. For a GMO crop such as GMO soybeans, which are sprayed heavily with glyphosate, the range is typically between 3.3 and 5.7 mg/kg. (Source.)

Next, Tropical Traditions tested the USDA certified organic grains from suppliers they had been using, sourced mainly from western states such as Montana and Idaho. Sadly, the presence of glyphosate residue was found in organic wheat and other organic grains, including organic barley, oats, spelt, and einkorn. The range was from 0.03 to 0.06 mg/kg, just slightly lower than the conventional grains that were tested.

. There was also one variety of organic wheat from small-scale farmers in Wisconsin that tested clean from glyphosate.

[Jim Beard]

278. Concerning Round Up in wheat...................

From this article http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/real-reason-for-toxic-wheat-its-not-gluten/

The Real Reason Wheat is Toxic (it’s not the gluten)


It is all in the local farming practices. In the lower Wheat belt of Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas, Roundup is not used before harvest because of our climate. As I have stated, dryland wheat in these areas use no chemicals or fertilizer.

[Jim Beard]

336. Raw wheat has no gluten, only after it is cooked.

[Raster]

351. It is the moisture that begins to activate the gluten, not cooking.

Gluten doesn't even exist until flour becomes wet. Water is what coaxes the two wheat proteins glutenin and gliadin to combine and form gluten. So by adding or withholding water from dough or batter, you can encourage or deter gluten's development. When you want to maximize gluten, a moderate amount of water is ideal.

[PatSeg]

18. Because

for a very small handful of people, there is an ongoing war on organic food. It is not like anyone is forcing them to eat the food. Why they are so concerned with other people's eating habits is very strange. Quite frankly, I don't particularly care what other people eat, that is their business, not mine.

[WheelWalker]

327. With the possible exception of

Hannibal Lecter and Jeffrey Dahmer devotees, I agree. There's no accounting for taste.

[PatSeg]

328. Yes

I would make such an exception!

[HuckleB]

329. Oh, my goodness, that is hilarious.

More and more people are calling out organic marketers for their lack of ethics and the con job they are playing on the public, and you get offended by that. What does that really say? And about whom?

Hmm.

PS: https://foodscienceinstitute.com/2016/07/19/organic-valley-highlights-inauthenticity-with-the-usual-lies/

[PatSeg]

331. "More and more people"?

Straw man much??

Yeah, yeah, I know. You included a link.

[HuckleB]

333. Ah, you keep pretending at every turn.

That's hilarious. Heck, you don't even know what a Strawman is.

It is funny how you pretend to "research things," but you only read the BS fictions that support your preconceptions.

PS: http://madisonrecord.com/stories/510963887-moms-stop-worrying-organic-food-is-no-safer-than-gmos-it-just-costs-more

[PatSeg]

334. Ah, and you keep trying to tell me

what I am doing. That's hilarious. Well, it isn't really hilarious, more like insulting.

Anyway, I am a bit suspicious of anyone who tries too hard to sell something, when obviously my well-being is of no concern to him/her.

[HuckleB]

337. You show us what you're doing.

No worries about that.

[PatSeg]

338. And right back at you my dear

Meanwhile, I think this thread has more than run its course. It is getting stale and redundant.

Going to head back to convention news!

Have a great day

[Javaman]

4. while that is a scam...

grass fed beef is not.

while it's more expensive, that's because it's not mass produced and not fed any grain. Thus reflecting the actual price people once paid for meat.

It was only until the 20th century that meat was so easily available.

Remember the old campaign slogan, "a chicken in every pot"?

that's because chicken wasn't as easily available to city folks. it wasn't mass produced until post WWII and Perdue started Perdue chicken industries.

and regarding general produce. Any grain based item, if made at home will require that much more time and energy to create.

for example: my GF and I buy wheat berries. We grind our own wheat to make bread and yes, pasta. If we charged what it cost us to make it, it would cost the buyer a small fortune. That's because it's not mass produced on the level of a company like Ronzoni.

Small outfits can source their organic or non-organic wheat berries but it will cost that much more. They then hand make it. thus the additional cost.

Whether it tastes better or not, that's not for me to decide, but as for myself, I know that when I make my own, I know that there is no artificial flavors, coloring or non-organic pesticides used. And that's what we pay for.

And more over, everything we eat, for the most part, I would say about 80% of it, is locally sourced. And oddly enough, because the corporations have a strangle hold on distribution, the local stuff costs more.

bottom line is: if you want to know where your food comes from and how it's made and whether or not it has artifical anything in it, you are going to have to pay for it.

And for another discussion, part of the reason wages have been going down is because the abundance of cheap unhealthy food. "why pay people more when they can eat crap and not know any better, right?" those who don't want to raise wages have no idea of the connection between diet and poverty.

[phylny]

120. Yes to your last paragraph (and the other paragraphs, too, but)...

I work with a lot of people in poverty, and one day it dawned on me that they don't cook - they heat stuff up. Fish sticks, chicken nuggets, hot pockets, fries. All processed food. It's cheaper. They couldn't afford to cook what I buy at the store. And yes, I go for grass-fed beef on the advice of my doctor, and try to buy mostly organic food. If it's a scam, I'm willing to take the chance.

[Javaman]

122. the majority of things labeled "organic"

in the store are just that, a scam.

what you need to look for is this seal:



if it doesn't have that, it's not organic.

many items can claim this or that, but with out that USDA label it's BS.

I know of what I speak, my GF works at a certain of chain organic stores that is grossly over priced. we all know the name of the place.

as a side note: while she does work there, we get the majority of our food from the farmers market. Read the labels, it's surprising how much "organic" stuff is actually not really all that "organic".

Which I might add, you have to get to them and their farming practices. Just because they are farmers, doesn't mean they are organic farmers.

[womanofthehills]

124. Check sticker on fruits & vegetables or on bag - organic code begins with 9 & has 5 digits

If it begins with 4 or 3 and has 4 numbers - not organic. Regular grocery stores with some organic, make this mistake the most. In Albertsons Gro, they have a big sign with organic and often there is some non-organic under the sign.

[Javaman]

125. good info. Thanks. nt

[TexasBushwhacker]

193. I also worked for "that store"

They charge what they can to maximize profits. That's what businesses do. If they charge too much, sales go down. So they have to find that pricing sweet spot.

While I also like shopping at farmers markets, not everything there is organic either, at least not in my area.

There are also products that are made with organic ingredients, but are not 100% organic. There's no such thing as organic salt or water.

[Javaman]

201. I don't know why you brought up salt and water...

but whatever.

and quite frankly, if you want to get right down to the bare bones of it all, there is actually nothing that is technically "organic" in the sense that it's free from pollutants.

The rain is full of crap, and the air we breath is full of crap.

all of which goes into the soil.

But that's just splitting hairs.

the original mission of "that store" has strayed so far from its original purpose it's now a comic tragedy.

I live in Austin and remember the very first store they had. it was tiny, it was cramped, but the mission then was very sincere.

Now, not so much. and that can be directly traced to the day when they hired on ex-walmart members on the board.

Recently, ex-target members were hired and they are slowly changing the entire concept of what it's like to work and shop at "that store".

There will be less "organic" and more things that contain "organic". Meaning much less of a percentage of a product will have organic ingredients. also, they are doing away with the buyer positions and everything will be automated. This is done to "save money" aka make more money for the board members. They are cutting hours across the board. They are combining depts. Grocery, specialty and whole body will be all lumped together. all as a cost savings measure. the one thing about "that store" that was indeed better than many was it's customer service, but due to the above things I have mentioned, the customer service is taking a much bigger hit. There will be much fewer long time employees that have huge amounts of knowledge able to help people. And quite frankly, it's already showing.

what made "that store" interesting is, sadly going away.

Why? They fear competition from the likes of Trader Joe's. Trader Joe's like them or not, have the target-like model down for grocery stores. They aren't ginormous stores, there is no depts and they do everything automated. Ironically, they treat their employees wonderfully.

That's what's going to happen to "that store" only they won't be treating their employees all that great.

The whole idea of what organic is and isn't is changing on the grocery landscape. "That store" could have capitalized on it, but instead they chose to go a different route and become just like any other grocery store. That's fine, but their original mission is now completely gone.

[TexasBushwhacker]

241. Unfortunately, that little sincere store would not have survived

When that store flooded, they took the opportunity to expand. It was never exclusively organic. John and his girlfriend wanted to focus on quality products, including good meat even though they were vegetarians. Unfortunately, most of those small stores just can't survive on their own. Even Wild Oats was bought out and they had dozens of stores.

I lost my job in 2010 at the distribution center when they closed 1 of the 2 warehouses and laid off half the staff, including several buyers. I think they've moved towards the stores ordering more direct from vendors and relying on distribution centers only for frozen, refrigerated and private label.

I wasn't aware that they were cutting hours in the stores. That really stinks.

[womanofthehills]

258. Many of the prices in "that store" are higher than Whole Foods

I can buy organic at Whole Foods for less than non organic at "that store."

[Blanks]

149. Cereal...

We are told that breakfast cereal is healthy, and maybe it is, but they use the waste from the crops and add 'vitamins and minerals' to make it 'healthy'. I doubt there are studies proving that cereal performs the health functions that they promote. Of course we wouldn't be able to observe the manufacturing process because of trade secrets. They said it was good on the TV and they can't lie on TV, right?

I was watching a WWII documentary about Germany and as the war dragged on the food supply for citizens got pretty sketchy. They fed the people sawdust. Add a little flavoring and who can tell? Right?

Ironically, food isn't all that difficult to grow, chickens aren't that difficult to keep. Somehow we've allowed the powers that be to convince us that only 'lesser persons' are involved in food production, what we need is a job, so that we can buy food. That's what 'civilized' folk do.

When it comes to food security, we are completely screwed. Too many people believe that food comes from the grocery store

[Javaman]

182. Cereal as it is sold in the stores is basically worthless...

traditionally speaking, oats, porridge, and virtually all grains, were once soaked over night in water with some sort of a vinegar or yogurt. this was essentially, a primitive digestive process. this allows the grains to be more thoroughly be processed in the body.

grains in their un-soaked form, don't really release any nutrients into the body and simply act as roughage and pass through.

each week I soak 2 cups of rolled oats in water with apple cider vinegar for 24 hours. cook it on a low heat to boil, turn it off, and let it cool.

this is my breakfast every morning with a little honey.

that said, the body will process anything that can be digested to try and derive any latent nutrients. eating sawdust as the Pols did during the siege of Leningrad along with book binding paste carried many people through. the pump from the wood fibers does have a certain level of nutrients, (not a lot) and the paste, made from hooves, also had a certain level. but in those extreme situations, one will eat just about anything. and if your health wasn't compromised prior to such circumstances, a person could live on as little as 250 calories a day.

If you haven't read it, you should check out the amazing book, 900 days: the Siege of Leningrad. whole passages are dedicated to what they ate.

[PatSeg]

216. Interesting information

How much apple cider vinegar do you use? Can you taste it in the cooked oatmeal?

[Javaman]

285. I use two cups of oatmeal...

put in a bowl, cover with water, add 1 tablespoon of apple cider vinegar. cover with a towel.

let stand at least 8 hours.

and cook as normal.

there is no vinegar flavor afterwards.

[PatSeg]

286. Thank you so much

[Javaman]

290. My pleasure. :) cheers! nt

[Blanks]

229. Yeah, I don't think they even use grains...

In cereal anymore.

I looked into the Leningrad book that you mentioned, and there's a documentary (English subtitles).

It was a difficult time. I didn't have time to watch the entire film, I got about half way through, very difficult period in world history.

Thanks for the tip.

[womanofthehills]

259. Class action lawsuit against Quaker Oats - false advertising

Quaker Oats claims to be "natural" but it has Roundup in it. Roundup is not natural. How is that for false advertising!

A lawsuit seeking to be certified as a class action has been filed on behalf of consumers in New York and California against the owner of Quaker Oats after testing found traces of the pesticide glyphosate in some oatmeal.

While the level of glyphosate, the active ingredient in the popular weed killer Roundup, detected in the oatmeal falls well below the limit set by federal regulators for human consumption, the lawsuit accuses Quaker of false advertising because it markets the oatmeal as “100% natural.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/business/quaker-oats-100-natural-claim-questioned-in-lawsuit.html?_r=0

[matt819]

5. No it isn't

Assuming the producer isn't lying, then it's not a scam. You can choose to buy the product or not. Although organic products still represent only a tiny fraction of overall grocery spending, there are organic options in most grocery stores, and many stores offer a pretty decent range of options. Some are expensive, some not so much, but put it in context. If organic is important to you, and organic pasta costs $3.00 vs. $1.50 for non-organic, yes, that's a 100% premium, but it's only $1.50. If it's important to you, that small difference shouldn't matter.

As another poster has pointed out, organic and related options regarding meat is another matter. Organic, grass-fed, humanely raised, etc. really carries a substantial premium, but, as with everything in life, you make a choice regarding what's important to you. A fair point in this regard is that organic food and humanely raised animals and cage free eggs might also be important for any number of reasons to people who in fact cannot afford these options. I don't have an answer to this problem.

Now, if organic food is not organic, or if beef labeled organic, grass-fed, etc. is in fact not, then that's a scam.

BTW, don't be fooled or misled to believe that meat from a butcher shop is anything other than industrial. There's a small grocery store in my area that has a pretty substantial butcher shop. Very nice people, very accommodating, (vegetarians skip the next couple of words), good looking meats. I went there for some time before I thought to ask where their meat came from. The meat supplier. What farm? Don't know, it comes from our meat supplier. IOW, not natural, organic, grass-fed, etc. Same thing in a butcher shop about an hour from me (on the way to the airport). I popped in there to ask that same question. Nope. Not organic, not grass fed, not raised by a local farmer. Straight from the meat distributor. Haven't bought stuff there either.

[HuckleB]

14. Organic companies lie about their products and those of their competitors.

Thus, yes, it is a scam.

[Archae]

91. Organic is a scam. Just look at how they operate.

They lie, hide their more poisonous pesticides, and rely on vicious propaganda like this:



Meanwhile, the "demonic" Monsanto is open with their techniques, even letting Bill Nye and Neil deGrasse Tyson to openly see their methods.

The loudest anti-GMO activists have the science knowledge of my old shoes, led by Jeffrey Smith and Mark Druker.
Both of whom are "college professors" at the UNaccredited ripoff "college began by the Maharishi Yogi and his "transcendental meditation will save the world" delusion.

Then there's "March Against Monsanto," a group of total loons who not only are against Monsanto, they are against vaccines, medicine and viciously anti-science.

[womanofthehills]

99. Roundup can not be used on organic - thank goodness!

the lawsuits are coming big time - check out all the lawyers with class action suits against Monsanto. There is even a class action suit against Quaker Oats for claiming their oats are natural - when they are not natural because they have glyphosate as an ingredient.

Nebraska Farmers Sue Monsanto Alleging Roundup Gave Them Cancer

Four Nebraskan agricultural workers have filed a lawsuit against Monsanto Co. alleging that the agribusiness giant's cancer-linked product, Roundup, gave them non-Hodgkin lymphoma after many years of exposure.

http://www.ecowatch.com/nebraska-farmers-sue-monsanto-alleging-roundup-gave-them-cancer-1891131269.html

U.S. lawsuits build against Monsanto over alleged Roundup cancer link

Personal injury law firms around the United States are lining up plaintiffs for what they say could be "mass tort" actions against agrichemical giant Monsanto Co that claim the company's Roundup herbicide has caused cancer in farm workers and others exposed to the chemical.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-monsanto-lawsuits-idUSKCN0S92H720151015

[HuckleB]

127. Many more toxic things can be used, however.

You keep promoting your pseudoscience, and fictions. That's not ok.

[AntiBank]

123. Monsanto is one of the most EVIL corporations on the planet

this OP is laughable

it is straight of the the old "My doc say Camels are good for my T-Zone"

[HuckleB]

126. Monsanto sells organic seeds, too.

Your response has nothing to do with the OP.

PS: http://fafdl.org/blog/2015/05/19/anti-gmo-activists-are-the-ones-practicing-tobacco-science/

[AntiBank]

135. my response was 2 fold, to the Monsanto poster, then to the OP

and its not Monsantos organic seeds that makes rhem evil

just like GE's electric appliances dont make them evil

their war machines take them into that realm

[HuckleB]

137. There are no "Monsanto posters," so your response is baseless.

And your follow-up response is just pointless.

[AntiBank]

141. erm......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028009602#post91

[HuckleB]

144. So a post that simply shows that baseless attacks are baseless makes someone a "Monsanto Poster?"

Nope.

[HuckleB]

165. LOL!

Your post is a classic bizarro world temper tantrum based in complete ignorance. And you actually then try to say I'm the one who is deluded.

[AntiBank]

171. happy eating

[Jim Beard]

344. I liked L. S. M. F. T. better

Lucky Strike Means Fine Tobacco or the one us young boys liked.... Loose Strap Means Floppy _it's.

I hate the bastards and how they encouraged me as a youngster. I remembered all the actors smoking in the movies but as I look back at the old Perry Masons and others, many actors would pretend to be lighting up and never saw smoke come from a puff.

[haele]

43. If there's a farmer's market in the area, many times there's also a local rancher that provides meat

We're lucky down in SoCal, there's quite a few ranches/farms where you can actually drive by the and see how they're raising their stock if that's a major concern. The only issue might then be the condition of the local slaughterhouses where they send them to be processed, but even then, there's several that are listed that you can drop by.

Haele

[matt819]

79. Absolutely

I should shop at the farmers' market, but we have a good local co-op and the prices are comparable. All local/regional, most all grass fed, some grass fed/grain finished. All humanely raised, you can go visit the farms if you're so inclined. All fresh. Pricey, but worth it.

Good point on the local slaughterhouses. I understand that there's maybe 2. I don't know where they are, and I can only hope their processing is consistent with how the animals are raised.

[Major Nikon]

100. Organic food is not organic, so you just admitted it's a scam

§205.601 Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production.

§205.603 Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic livestock production.

[L. Coyote]

8. NO IT IS NOT! Albeit, some people scam organic! Big difference.

[HuckleB]

19. It's all just a marketing scam, pure and simple.

It's classic snake oil nonsense.

[cheapdate]

316. Anyone who carelessly makes universal claims ("all") isn't to be taken seriously.

[HuckleB]

320. LOL!

You keep conning yourself that way.

[cheapdate]

321. Hahahaha!

You don't even have a clue how foolish you sound!

[HuckleB]

323. Right back at you.

You have no idea how off base you are on this, and, apparently, you are much too lazy to bother to find out. Keep wasting your money. It's really cool!

Whoops.

PS: https://foodscienceinstitute.com/2016/07/19/organic-valley-highlights-inauthenticity-with-the-usual-lies/

[Orrex]

9. I only buy organic bottled water that's certified GMO-free & gluten-free

[ProfessorGAC]

21. Taken Right Off The Spigot From Chicago City Water!

Actually happened here back in the 80's. Hinckley and Schmidt was found to be filling their "spring water" bottles (big 5 gallon ones) directly from a city water tap.

WFLD TV did a hidden camera thing on them. No purification, no filtration, just straight city water.

They didn't get fined because there were no regulations covering it, but it was a big corporate embarassment.

To me, THAT'S a scam. Paying 1 cent per gallon and charging $4 bucks for 5 gallons and it's the same stuff that comes out of people's kitchen sink taps.

[RobinA]

292. I Kid You Not

I saw water in the grocery store this weekend being touted as gluten free. I hurried up and bought a bunch, because you don't see gluten free water in the stores very often!

[jmowreader]

295. GMO-free salt too, right?

https://jet.com/product/detail/3ee25ea447c54d718382d97183bb30b6?jcmp=pla:ggl:gen_jd_food_beverages_tobacco_a3:food_items_seasonings_spices_a3_other:na LA_344688900_23648795820_pla-180284393580:na:na:na:2&code=PLA15&ds_c=gen_jd_food_beverages_tobacco_a3&ds_cid=&ds_ag=food_items_seasonings_spices_a3_other&product_id=3ee25ea447c54d718382d97183bb30b6&product_partition_id=180284393580&gclid=CjwKEAjwn7e8BRCUqZiP_vnrtBkSJAC_lp4H7sXNtcCwo8bCx8h4-FXFCb0FkE6lP3eVdFcLPF-RIhoCYD3w_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Orrex]

296. Well not so far, but now that you've clued me in I'll need to start.

Thanks!

[uppityperson]

335. I've seen Gluten Free disposable paper plates.

And vegetarian corn.

Marketed as those, I mean

[cyberswede]

10. How does that post demonstrate that "organic" is a scam?

GMO-free and organic aren't synonyms.

And the higher cost of that pasta is more due to being gluten free, peanut free, and kosher. The production facility would need to meet specific standards, and the ingredients cost more.

[HuckleB]

15. Not three-times as much.

And most of that company's marketing is in regard to things that are already not in pastas. It's about as scummy as you can get.

[cyberswede]

25. Well, typical pasta contains wheat flour and eggs

And many (if not most) production facilities where regular pasta is made aren't GF, peanut free, or kosher. So, I don't agree that "most" of their marketing is in regard to things that are already not in pasta.

All companies that produce products spin their marketing to sell them them. It's hardly a scam to do so. Buyers bear some responsibility to make informed purchases.

My spouse has celiac disease - I'd love it if GF food cost the same as regular food. But as long as the market supports charging more for GF food, companies will continue to charge more for it.

By the way, the post in the OP linked to an ad by the company that made claims about GMO foods causing health problems. If that's not true, then the company bears responsibility for that. But that has nothing to do with organic food, and certainly doesn't demonstrate that organic food is a scam (as claimed by the person to whom I replied).

[HuckleB]

30. You keep telling yourself that, and waste your money on scam marketing.

And the OP is an example of the type of marketing organic companies do on a regular basis, and when they don't do it directly, they do it by funding organizations like the Organic Consumers Association which offer similar lies to the public every day.

[pnwmom]

93. Gluten is in most pastas, and Celiac and other gluten sensitive people

often have to pay extra to get gluten free products.

It isn't fair but we're taken advantage of. And the government makes this easier on the producers because they're not required to identify gluten in the foods they produce. We're dependent on producers, like organic producers, who VOLUNTARILY identify their gluten free foods.

[HuckleB]

128. All true, yet you ignore that those same producers have worked to con people...

who don't need to avoid gluten to do so. And you ignore the fact that the entire organic marketing scheme is a scam.

[pnwmom]

217. It isn't scummy to say a product is gluten free or peanut free even when

neither of those items would be expected to be in a particular food item.

When a food item, rice cakes, for example, is produced in a factory with wheat or peanut products, it can be contaminated with enough gluten or peanuts to cause a reaction in a susceptible person. Therefore, the possible presence of peanuts must always be labeled.

Unfortunately, ,the government doesn't require gluten to be labeled, ever. So the alternative the government has recommended is that producers voluntarily label their products as gluten-free when they meet the standard. This will often occur with a product that you would naturally expect to be gluten-free, like rice cakes or potato chips. But a person with Celiac cannot count on those items being gluten-free in the absence of such a label because of the risk of contamination.

[HuckleB]

221. We all know the unethical marketing game the company is playing.

It is scummy. You can pretend otherwise. I don't care.

[pnwmom]

223. No, we all don't. That "marketing game" is the only way a customer

has of knowing whether a product is gluten-free, since the government doesn't require gluten to be labeled, or all the possible ingredients that may contain gluten -- like barley. They can hide under the general term "natural flavors" or "natural ingredients."

The scummy food producers are the ones who applied pressure on Congress during debates on the food labeling bill, and got them to leave gluten off the list of labeled ingredients -- even though more people have serious problems with gluten than with some of the other items that WERE required to be labeled.

[HuckleB]

232. LOL!

Denial is not ok.

[pnwmom]

240. Shilling is not okay. n/t

[HuckleB]

330. Calling people shills is not ok.

Sheesh.

[pnwmom]

342. Agreed. nt

[RadiationTherapy]

11. Do you mean that pricing, marketing, and capitalism are scams?

Because I don't see anything specific about "organic" products to meet your criteria.

[oberliner]

12. Just because one company lied does not mean organic is a scam

That seems like an erroneous conclusion.

[HuckleB]

16. What organic company does not lie?

[cyberswede]

26. What non-organic company does not lie?

[PatSeg]

29. Oh no, no

Only organic companies lie and deceive their customers!!! The rest are totally honest all the time!!!

[HuckleB]

34. Derp.

In other words, you will buy that massive, ongoing lies that have conned you into buying more expensive food for no good reason because some other companies may also lie.

Yeah, that's not particularly thoughtful.

[womanofthehills]

92. Oh no = it's Derp again

[HuckleB]

31. I don't see my non-organic vegetable sellers making baseless claims about organics.

Do you?

I don't see good old milk companies marketing their products as healthier than organic milk.

Do you?

Shall we continue...?

[cyberswede]

42. Huh?

Are you saying that since non-organic companies don't specifically lie about being more healthy than organic companies that they don't lie about anything at all ever? That's absurd.

If you hold the position that organic food isn't healthier than non-organic food, why not just say that?

I don't actually think an organic apple is healthier than a non-organic apple. I do think that it's preferable (and probably healthier) to eat apples grown without chemical pesticides.

[HuckleB]

45. In other words, you acknowledge that you are making excuses for the ludicrous, over the top lies...

... of the organic industry... Got it.

And there is nothing preferable to organic food. Organic pesticides are often more toxic, and used more frequently, and on and on and on. The scam is so ludicrous that those who are conned by it appear to need to hold on to it as something it is not.

[PatSeg]

59. And actually

the organic foods that I buy say they are "organic". They don't make claims about non-organic foods being less healthy. I don't know what labels he is reading.

For instance, my strawberries say they are "USDA organic" and "CA Grown", no other claims. My whole wheat bread is "Free from artificial colors, flavors, and preservatives. No high fructose corn syrup, low fat", nothing about the non-organic alternative.

[closeupready]

13. In time, The Boy Who Cried Wolf cried 'wolf' once too often. Finally,

he realized nobody was listening to him anymore - even when there was a real wolf at the door.

[PatSeg]

17. I buy organic whenever possible

I never pay 2-3 times the price of non-organic for anything. When I shop at Trader Joe's, I actually pay less for many items than I would pay in a regular grocery store for non-organic food. Now, if I were buy something labeled "organic" or "free range" and it was not true, then that would be a scam.

People pay more for many things in their lives, because they prefer some brands over others.

"Organic" is a choice, not a scam

[ProfessorGAC]

22. You Live In A Big Enough Area

We have two modest sized supermarkets in town. Both sell only organic arugula. When they sold it without the organic label, it was 40% of the price. They don't sell both brands.

That's one example in the produce section around here. The produce departments aren't big enough and volume isn't high enough to carry multiple brands of one type of vegetable. So, when they switch to organic, the prices go up.

[PatSeg]

24. That is too bad

Do you have any farm stands or farmer's markets where you live?

[ProfessorGAC]

46. Yeah!

Mostly corn and tomatoes, but they generally only run from late July to early October.

We might find zucchini, or green beans, and like that some times, but they're really corn stands with a few extras scattered in.

We're in corn and soybean country. We live right where the farming dominated real estate starts. Go south of us and it's farm after farm

The nearest Trader Joe's of which i'm aware is 40 miles away.

[PatSeg]

51. I wish everyone had a Trader Joe's

near them. It is such a great company and they treat their employees so well, you can tell by how happy they are. It is such a pleasant shopping experience and they have a good wine selection as well.

[ProfessorGAC]

63. About 18 Miles from My House. . .

. . .there's a very nice grocery. Independent chain of something like 12 stores, but under 2 different names.

Much bigger selection and excellent prices.

All union shops. But, for every day shopping driving 18 miles instead of 8 blocks is a non-starter.

[PatSeg]

66. Understandable

18 miles is too far for regular shopping.

[womanofthehills]

104. I have to go 90 miles roundtrip for regular grocery shopping

as our local grocery store (that was 20 miles round trip from my house) closed and I now live in a "food desert" - 90 miles round trip to the nearest grocery. This has been a big problem for many seniors and low income in our community. We do have an exceptional bakery and an unexceptional Dollar Store (The Dollar Store has become the main grocery store to many - very sad.)

I usually go to Albuquerque so I can buy at the organic grocery stores - 190 miles round trip. My daughter and grand kids live in Albuquerque so I combine visiting family and grocery shopping or I go grocery shopping with friends and we call it "artist girls day out". We have a large art community in my small town and the majority of the art community eat organic and travel 190 miles each week to shop.

[PatSeg]

133. I can imagine

you have food shopping down to a science. If you forget something, there is no running back to the store. Do you have a freezer?

[womanofthehills]

266. I do have an extra freezer -

I'm becoming a freezeaholic. I'm freezing things I never thought I could freeze. I do have a garden and chickens so I always have tons of eggs and tomatoes if nothing else.

[PatSeg]

272. I was wondering about a garden

Chickens too, how wonderful and you know where your eggs came from.

It is amazing the foods one can freeze. I'm always discovering new foods that can be frozen.

[womanofthehills]

94. In New Mexico regular lettuce is usually $1.50 and organic $2.00

you are looking at a 50 cents difference and I can buy organic grass fed yogurt for 99 cents.

[unapatriciated]

145. A few montbs back there was a recall on a huge varity

of veggies both fresh and packsged due ro contamination. I work at a grocery store and we could ony get organic. That could have been the reason your grocer stopped carrying non organic arugula.

[HuckleB]

23. It's an unethical marketing scam. You can waste money, but it's still an unethical marketing scam.

You can also pretend that you're not spending more by comparing apples and oranges, but you're still spending more. Organic peppers a Trader Joe's cost more than non-organic peppers at Trader Joe's, and on and on.

[PatSeg]

27. It is not unethical or a marketing scam

unless they are lying about the product.

Meanwhile, I often pay more for better products when I find it desirable. If you don't think organic foods are better, that is your opinion. I generally find the taste and quality is superior.

[HuckleB]

32. It is a classic scam, and is disgustingly unethical.

There is no justification for it. You are not getting better products. You have simply been conned by lies.

[PatSeg]

36. "disgustingly unethical"

Bit of an overstatement there.

I do have taste buds and I can tell when some foods taste better than others. I most certainly have NOT been conned, but perhaps, just perhaps YOU have?

[HuckleB]

38. Not even close. It IS disgustingly unethical.

https://skepchick.org/2015/01/the-myth-of-the-altruistic-organic-industry/

[PatSeg]

47. Opinion

[HuckleB]

50. You can dismiss the real world however you want to dismiss it.

Last edited Thu Jul 14, 2016, 03:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Your use of woo sites and nonsense like Seneff makes it very clear that reality does not matter to you.

[puffy socks]

183. The organic milk I buy tastes better

Last edited Fri Jul 15, 2016, 06:43 PM - Edit history (1)

than non organic . I've compared every brand in our store. All of the organic milk tastes better, and for some reason lasts a lot longer, by weeks.
What's really funny is that you obviously think you're so much more scientifically gifted and knowledgeable than anyone else ...so much smarter, so superior.


I'll wager you're going to change a lot of minds by calling people stupid and telling them that they're accomplices in a big corporate scam.
So smart you aren't. Priggish you are.

[HuckleB]

189. LOL!

Sure it does.

If you think you're cool by bragging about being conned by bad marketing, well, that's your thing.

[puffy socks]

192. Mm hmmm

So now you are going to tell me what I'm tasting?

And call me a liar on expiration dates.
Sorry, those are facts.


You're so close to convincing me I've been conned

How long have been working for Monsanto's PR dept. ?

[PatSeg]

218. I agree

Organic milk does taste much better and has a remarkably long shelf life. Most of the organic milk that I buy is "Ultra Pasteurized" which could contribute to the longer shelf life.

[womanofthehills]

102. If you want to eat Roundup go ahead

why are you upset if many of do not want to eat it.

[womanofthehills]

106. OMG! I guess you never tasted organic fruit!! So so delicious!

[kristopher]

37. You have to accept the Huckle has his own personal definitions of many words and concepts.

For example, profit motivated corporations are to be trusted while non-governmental organizations are corrupted liars because they need to solicit donations.

Yep, that truly is a claim that Huck recently made (repeatedly).

[HuckleB]

39. I've never made such a claim.

Do you have any sense of decency at all?

[kristopher]

40. You've made it repeatedly.

[HuckleB]

41. You've repeatedly made the claim that I said such a thing.

I've never said such a thing, however.

Again, do you have any sense of decency?

[kristopher]

48. Really?

The content of the subthread starting here is unequivocal.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1127102892#post6

[HuckleB]

52. It is, in fact.

It shows you repeatedly putting words in my mouth instead of responding to the actual content of my words.

Thank you for showing everyone that your claim is nonsense.

Nicely done.

[kristopher]

55. You're confused.

You are asserting the defense that literal statements are the only way to say something. That is patently untrue. There's no room for other interpretations of what you wrote. You are dedicated to that message and it comes across loud and clear. Greenpeace evil, Monsanto good - etc, etc, etc.

[HuckleB]

56. No, I'm not confused.

In fact, you just did it again. I've never said anything about Monsanto being "good," etc...

Again, do you have any sense of decency?

[womanofthehills]

105. You stand behind GMO's and glyphosate (made by Monsanto) with a vengence

in post after post after post

[HuckleB]

129. I stand behind the science that shows GMOs to be safe.

And that shows glyphosate is less toxic than many "organic" products.

And you pretend otherwise, in post after post.

[womanofthehills]

270. Why are so many lawsuits being filed against Monsanto for Roundup ?

Field workers and farmers getting non hodgkin's lymphoma from glyphosate.

[PatSeg]

53. I've noticed and find it rather amusing

Like visiting "opposite world"!

[HuckleB]

54. That poster claims I said something I never said.

He can't show that I said such a thing. He can only show how he attempted to put words in my mouth.

And you are going to make this type of response? Do you have any sense of decency?

Speaking of opposite world, why are you pushing Seneff, when you know her silliness doesn't stand up to the light of day?

The real world awaits your visit.

[womanofthehills]

108. Of Course you would hate Dr. Stephanie Seneff - she is against Monsanto & big ag's chemicals

Interesting how Roundup messes up your gut microbes - effects folic acid levels, magnesium, vit B


Are Big Ag’s Chemicals Making Us All Sick? – Thom Hartmann Program - July 8, 2016 Ring of Fire - Progressive News Network

[HuckleB]

130. She produces bogus pseudoscience.

I am against pseudoscience. I know that bothers you, because that's all you can offer.

She has been debunked, just like you and your friend Food Babe.

[PatSeg]

222. Thanks for the video

[kristopher]

58. Yep.

But because of the degree of animus it's almost to the point of being frightening.

[HuckleB]

62. When someone repeatedly claims someone else said something he/she did not,

do you expect a pat on the back from the other person?

Or do you expect them to find your actions to be less than ok?

[PatSeg]

224. It can be

Often it shuts down interesting threads, which could be the motive. In this case an anti-organic op has been dominated more by proponents of organic farming and reason. That is a positive sign I think.

I'm sure snark is headed in my direction any minute now!

[cyberswede]

28. And name-brand peanut butter costs more than generic. It's not a scam to charge more for some things

If consumers want to spend a little more for organically grown produce, they can. If they don't want to, they won't

It's not the same as passing off non-organic food as organic (which would be unethical).

[HuckleB]

33. So what?

Is the name brand pretending to be healthier, and working to foment baseless fear about the generic brand?

[yeoman6987]

69. Why do you care and get your nose in customers buying habits?

If you pay the bills, I'll buy whatever you say. Until then, stop the negativity.

[HuckleB]

71. I care about my fellow human beings and the planet.

I've seen this marketing scam con people who have very little money into going hungry because they feel they must buy organic or they are not doing right by their families. I'm sorry, but I think calling out scams is a part of being progressive. These companies also demonize useful technology without reason, thus putting us all at further risk for hunger and environmental damage. This type of nonsense has many real-world ramifications, and the more popular it gets, the more farmland we will need, making less land for forests and wildlife. And on and on...

[yeoman6987]

78. Nice but you still have to prove any statements.

Any studies you can provide that hunger is caused by organic or that organic causes depletion of rain forests? We need proof.

[HuckleB]

138. So you don't understand basic economics?

And why are rain forests the only wild land you care about?

Organic uses more land. The more organic that is grown, the more land will be taken from wild lands. This is not hard stuff.

Families convinced that they must buy organic, even though it is no better, already forgo meals in order to use their meager funds only on organic. I see it daily in the clinic where I work.

If you want to live in denial, you go for it. It's not an ethical place, however.

[yeoman6987]

153. I knew you'd provide crap but opinion.

[HuckleB]

155. Ah, so the need for more land for organic is just an opinion.

And the fact that people are conned into believing they must buy organic in order to be good parents is just an opinion.

That's funny. Your need to believe in actual crap instead of reality is rather sad.

[yeoman6987]

158. You are the one who originally brought up rainforests

You have a distain for choice is really what this is about. You don't have to buy organic but others should be able to without harassment.

[HuckleB]

159. Wrong. I said forests.

You have been shown to be playing silly games because you want to believe in fiction. The realities that you choose to deny are not going away because you deny them.

You have nothing further to stand upon. Would you like a life preserver?

[yeoman6987]

161. No thanks. I am going grocery shopping at whole foods

I have a yearning to eat yummy foods without preservatives. Might as well stop at trader joes while I'm out to get items not at whole foods.

[HuckleB]

164. You are bragging about supporting one of the most disgusting corporations around.

By the way, bragging about spending more money on things that are no better than others is rather strange.

[yeoman6987]

170. Thank goodness I live in America

Where we are able to make choices on food. Not every country has that choice. And whole foods is not a bad company. Where did you get that gem?

[HuckleB]

178. Are you serious? Whole Foods is a horrible company.

And that has been known for years.

http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2006/03/is_whole_foods_wholesome.html

http://jon8332.typepad.com/force_for_good/2007/07/whole-foods-ceo.html

http://www.ethicsscoreboard.com/dunces/0708_mackey.html

http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2010/01/whole-foods-really-bad-planet

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/23/whole-foods-america-s-temple-of-pseudoscience.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/15/whole-foods-anti-gmo-swindle.html

http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/25/news/companies/whole-foods-overcharging/

http://www.businessinsider.com/whole-foods-ceos-admit-to-overcharging-customers-2015-7

https://news.vice.com/article/whole-foods-expensive-cheese-and-the-dilemma-of-cheap-prison-labor

http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/06/the_lies_that_whole_foods_tells_108701.html

This is well known. Where have you been?

[yeoman6987]

180. Ok. Our conversation has gone off the rails and I suppose I helped

Up thread I said I only buy one product that is organic and its milk. I get it from Winn Dixie or Publix depending on where I shop. I said I was going shopping today at WF and trader joes just to get under your skin. I probably shouldn't have done that. I apologize. Honestly the reason I get organic milk is because I don't drink it fast enough and the regular milk spoiled to soon. Organic seems to last longer. Could be in my head but it makes me feel better not dumping half the milk carton down the drain. With organic I've never had to. Have a great weekend!!! I think you mean well big time.

[HuckleB]

181. I'm off to do some backpacking.

Enjoy yourself.

[yeoman6987]

184. Thanks!

[Archae]

176. The CEO is a Trump supporter.

[womanofthehills]

110. So are you saying those of us who eat organic don't care about the planet

Last edited Fri Jul 15, 2016, 09:23 AM - Edit history (1)

Eating organic keeps glyphosate out of the rivers, lakes, air, soil and our bodies. What about caring enough about your fellow human beings that you don't want them to eat Roundup.

[HuckleB]

139. Eating organic means pushing more toxic products and using more land.

No, you don't care about the planet at all.

Your fictions do not change that reality.

[handmade34]

253. "I care about my fellow human beings and the planet"

excellent... although your argument that problems arise because organic farming may not be as efficient and use more land does not address the entire story... it is a complex issue and should not be considered with soundbites... the use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides has done and continues to do great damage to the environment and people...

all marketing is suspect as potentially a scam but food grown in a healthy, sustainable, organic way is not a scam...

the biggest scam is that we are not taught critical thinking skills when it comes to understanding our food supply and what choices to make when feeding ourselves and family... and it is a scam perpetrated by our government- giving subsidies to farmers to produce massive amounts of food that is detrimental to our well being... and instructing us to eat (more than is necessary) dairy and meat because the the dairy and meat industries lobby DHHS so successfully...

the best thing we could do for the environment and preservation of land is drastically cut commercial meat and dairy production

Cutting back on beefburgers and bacon could wipe $20 trillion off the cost of fighting climate change. That’s the dramatic conclusion of a study that totted up the economic costs of modern meat-heavy diets.

The researchers involved say that reducing our intake of beef and pork would lead to the creation of a huge new carbon sink, as vegetation would thrive on unused farmland.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16573-eating-less-meat-could-cut-climate-costs/

Chronic health effects may occur years after even minimal exposure to pesticides in the environment, or result from the pesticide residues which we ingest through our food and water. A July 2007 study conducted by researchers at the Public Health Institute, the California Department of Health Services, and the UC Berkeley School of Public Health found a sixfold increase in risk factor for autism spectrum disorders (ASD) for children of women who were exposed to organochlorine pesticides.

Pesticides can cause many types of cancer in humans. Some of the most prevalent forms include leukemia, non-Hodgkins lymphoma, brain, bone, breast, ovarian, prostate, testicular and liver cancers. In February 2009, the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry published a study that found that children who live in homes where their parents use pesticides are twice as likely to develop brain cancer versus those that live in residences in which no pesticides are used.

A Washington University researcher tested urine samples from local children and found that some pesticides were five to seven times higher in children eating a conventional diet versus those eating an organic one.

[PatSeg]

255. Well said

Thank you!

[HuckleB]

260. Cutting back on meat is a good idea for many reasons.

I barely eat any, and I don't recommend anyone eat much.

Of course, that doesn't mean the organic marketing scam is ok.

[womanofthehills]

101. It depends on how much glyphosate you are willing to eat - 2.1 million lbs sprayed on almonds alone

Roundup is now being used on many foods, not just GMOs. It's being sprayed on everything - watermelons, avocados, grapes, rice, etc. - the list goes on forever.

How Widespread Is the Use of Glyphosate in Our Food Supply?


Notably, glyphosate use is also seen with a variety of crops not engineered to be sprayed directly. Looking at the period ending in 2013 compared to 2011, glyphosate use in wheat production was pegged at 8.6 million pounds, up from 8.1 million pounds; use in almonds was pegged at 2.1 million pounds, unchanged from the prior analysis; grape use was pegged at 1.5 million pounds, up from 1.4 million pounds; and rice use was estimated at 800,000 pounds, compared to 700,000 pounds in the prior analysis.

http://www.ecowatch.com/how-widespread-is-the-use-of-glyphosate-in-our-food-supply-1891128520.html

[PatSeg]

172. That is really scary

[Rex]

20. Mass consumerism is a scam. nt

nt

[Warpy]

35. Gluten free pasta is generally pretty expensive

even without all the other silly claims that company made, especially the health claims about GMO wheat, something that isn't being marketed commercially yet.

They got reamed on Farcebook in a rare display of knowledge answering New Age horseshit.

Wheat makes me itch and wheeze. It's an extremely rare allergy and one that's just annoying enough that I do eat wheat free pasta. There are just other good brands, including unbranded corn pasta sold in bulk, that are cheaper than the really pious stuff peddling disinformation along with the noodles.

[PatSeg]

44. Gluten intolerance has become almost epidemic in recent years

Perhaps it is the glyphosate, not the gluten. It was unheard of when I was young.

"Common wheat harvest protocol in the United States is to drench the wheat fields with Roundup several days before the combine harvesters work through the fields as the practice allows for an earlier, easier and bigger harvest.

Pre-harvest application of the herbicide Roundup or other herbicides containing the deadly active ingredient glyphosate to wheat and barley as a desiccant was suggested as early as 1980. It has since become routine over the past 15 years and is used as a drying agent 7-10 days before harvest within the conventional farming community.


Emails from folks with allergic or digestive issues to wheat in the United States experienced no symptoms whatsoever when they tried eating pasta on vacation in Italy."


http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/real-reason-for-toxic-wheat-its-not-gluten/

[HuckleB]

49. Nice woo.

You actually used a page so ridiculous that it promotes Seneff's nonsense.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/glyphosate-the-new-bogeyman/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/body/unless-you-have-celiac-disease-gluten-sensitivity-is-probably-just-in-your-head/

http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-who-found-evidence-for-gluten-sensitivity-have-now-shown-it-doesn-t-exist

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/05/opinion/sunday/the-myth-of-big-bad-gluten.html?_r=0

[PatSeg]

61. Anything that has the word "healthy"

or "natural" in it is "woo" to you.

[HuckleB]

64. I could clare less about page names, but that page is wootastic.

And your silly correlation nonsense is funny.

http://twentytwowords.com/funny-graphs-show-correlation-between-completely-unrelated-stats-9-pictures/

[PatSeg]

70. Ha, ha, Divorce and margarine

Good one.

Actually it is not MY correlation. The information came from the USDA, NASS, and CDC. We've seen such charts used to explain climate change as well and serious people think they are significant.

[HuckleB]

72. FFS, where the information came from is not the issue.

The correlation is pointless and has no support. The graph is not made by the sources of the information. Thus, you are conflating sources as a way to garner support for that which you have none

[womanofthehills]

111. HuckleB always quotes from sciencebasedmedicine - run by pharma shill David Gorski

David blogs under "Orac" and used to blog as "SoCalGal" -

[HuckleB]

131. I see you are pushing lies about Dr. Gorski again.

He is no shill for anyone, and you can't debunk any of his pieces with actual science.

You do realize that means you have confessed that you don't care about decency or science. Thanks!

[PatSeg]

140. That's very interesting

Funny too that it was Gorski who said, “A general principle is that undisclosed potential conflicts of interest (COIs) are of far more concern and potentially far more damaging to the scientific process than disclosed COIs.” That is such a right-wing tactic.

[HuckleB]

146. Your preference for keeping conflict secret explains your love of the organic industry.

Now, let's you debunk Gorski's essays on agriculture with a consensus of science.

I'll be waiting, and waiting...

[PatSeg]

148. If you wanted to know

you would Google it and I was not indicating a preference for keeping conflict secret.

[HuckleB]

150. LOL!

Classic response from a purveyor of pseudoscience.

[PatSeg]

152. Ha, ha, ha

Classic response from a corporate apologist!!!

[HuckleB]

157. Aww. So people who care about reality are "corporate apologists?"

Your fantasy world keeps getting more bizarre every day.

You defend pseudoscience. That's a fact. I don't defend corporations. Whoops.

[PatSeg]

167. Ah, so people who care about health

and the environment are "purveyors of pseudoscience". I don't think I want to be part of YOUR fantasy corporate world!

I don't defend pseudoscience and by all appearances, you DO defend corporate positions, unless it is just a coincidence that your positions seem to match that of companies such as Monsanto.

Have a nice weekend! Its been fun.

[HuckleB]

168. Wrong answer.

You don't care about health or the environment. If you did, you would stop blindly following beliefs that are harmful to both.

Those who truly care about such things get to the heart of the matter, and stop following fictions.

[PatSeg]

196. Groan............

Oh well, still have a nice weekend if you can.

[HuckleB]

202. LOL!

Please take a long look in the mirror this weekend.

[Major Nikon]

142. You always quote Michel Chossudovsky, who is certifiably insane

Globalresearch is an anti-"Western" website that can't distinguish between serious analysis and discreditable junk -- and so publishes both. It's basically the moonbat equivalent to Infowars or WND.

While some of GlobalResearch's articles discuss legitimate humanitarian concerns, its view of science, economics, and geopolitics is conspiracist -- if something goes wrong, the Jews West didit! The site has long been a crank magnet: If you disagree with "Western" sources on 9/11, or HAARP, or vaccines, or H1N1, or climate change, or anything published by the "mainstream" media, then GlobalResearch is guaranteed to have a page you will love.

The website (under the domain names globalresearch.ca(link), .org(link), and .com(link)) is run by the Montreal-based non-profit The Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG) founded by Michel Chossudovsky,[2][3] a tenured professor at the University of Ottawa.[4] Weep for the future.

Whenever someone makes a remarkable claim and cites GlobalResearch, they are almost certainly wrong.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch

[Rex]

238. Oh wow an opinion based crap site.

[Major Nikon]

246. Sure. Global warming is a myth, vaccines cause autism, and chemtrails are real.

It's just a crap opinion that all of this is the nuttiest bullshit imaginable.



http://www.globalresearch.ca/copenhagen-and-global-warming-ten-facts-and-ten-myths-on-climate-change/16467

http://www.globalresearch.ca/depopulation-vaccine-in-kenya-and-beyond/5413445

http://www.globalresearch.ca/haarp-secret-weapon-used-for-weather-modification-electromagnetic-warfare/20407

http://www.globalresearch.ca/uncovering-the-cover-up-scientific-analysis-of-the-vaccine-autism-connection-deeply-flawed-vaccine-policies/5491987

http://www.globalresearch.ca/breaking-us-used-nukes-on-iraq-afghanistan-atomic-bomb-dropped-on-tora-bora-expert/27972

http://www.globalresearch.ca/greater-israel-the-zionist-plan-for-the-middle-east/5324815

[Rex]

250. I've seen the site used here a lot.

Thanks for the links! Wow, that is just sad. Please tell me they don't pretend to be lefties.

[Major Nikon]

254. Yeah, kinda like LaRouche

Who is also not without a DU fanbase.

Very telling when someone floats such sources as having any legitimacy.

[Rex]

306. They hide it a lot, but there are some libertarians here.

I think the try and blend in.

[Major Nikon]

312. I lean libertarian in the manner that Noam Chomsky does

Some just belong to the nutbag wing.

[Rex]

322. Well civil libertarians are somewhat different then the RWing political kind.

Somewhat the opposite of each other imo.

[Warpy]

57. It's not gluten, it's not gliadin, it's not glyphosate

It's just one of the latest health food fads out there, along with the laughably named "paleo" diet.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm glad the market for it has grown, it gives a garden variety allergic like me more choices.

[PatSeg]

60. That's what I thought initially

but I've encountered so many people who have serious reactions to wheat, that I'm beginning to think it is true. I never saw anything like it years ago.

[Humanist_Activist]

67. How many people actually have serious reactions to wheat, and how many claim to...

have a reaction?

Just like many fads, there's always those who like jumping on the bandwagon, and there's no evidence that "wheat/gluten intolerance" even exists outside of celiac disease.

[HuckleB]

74. It's interesting to see how many people have gone back to bread...

... after avoiding it because they claimed to have a gluten intolerance, and went on and on about it at various gatherings during the heyday of the thing. I just smile to myself, and stay quiet.

[SalviaBlue]

80. I have gone back and forth many times.

The FACT is: I feel much worse when I eat wheat.

I cannot even fathom what your motivation is in trying to prove this is not real. But you and several others sure are invested. I just smile to myself, and stay quiet.

[PatSeg]

83. I've heard this from other people

I am quite sure it is not their imagination or a trendy food fad. People know how they feel and it is insulting to suggest their ailments or illnesses aren't real.

Some people sure do try awfully hard to sell their agenda!

[SalviaBlue]

84. Yes, there is some agenda pushing going on here for sure!

I don't get insulted... I just smile...

[PatSeg]

85. And some people know

we know there is an agenda, but they keep on trying! I just smile as well!

[HuckleB]

89. The science shows that it's not real.

If you have problems, then you should see an MD and get the proper diagnosis. In the meantime, con artists are doing everything they can to convince people that gluten is bad, and that they should spend more money on gluten free products, regardless of celiac diagnosis or any other diagnosis. It's not ok.

You realize that the very scientist who brought up the possibility of gluten intolerance is the very scientist who also debunked it, right?

[PatSeg]

82. Now that must be something to see

"I just smile to myself and stay quiet."

[HuckleB]

88. Well, they're not promoting pseudoscience fictions any more.

They should be good examples for you.

[Warpy]

68. Celiac was underdiagnosed and misdiagnosed for years

and now I'm sure some of those people who swear they have celiac but have never gone to a doctor about it have everything from IBS to ulcerative colitis.

I've you've got constant cramps and you can never trust a fart and you're losing weight, go to a doctor and get completely checked out. It can save your life--and your wallet if the problem isn't wheat.

[PatSeg]

73. Good advice

[pnwmom]

97. And make sure to ask to be tested for gluten!

Despite my known Celiac, my own niece's doctor tested her for 27 allergens because she was throwing up every day. But she didn't test her for gluten.

[womanofthehills]

269. Glyphosate messes with gut bacteria - many studies to back this up

so what do you base your statement on?

[Warpy]

274. So don't drink it.

[pnwmom]

96. A lot of people just didn't know what they had. For example, John Kennedy

was diagnosed with Addison's disease, which is often a complication of Celiac. As a child he had been diagnosed with a wheat allergy and failure to thrive -- a typical diagnosis of that era, because Celiac disease (which is triggered by certain proteins in wheat, barley, and rye) hadn't been identified in that era.

Celiac is very common among the Irish, and Ted Kennedy worked to get gluten labeled on foods (he was unsuccessful.)

I bet John Kennedy was one of many in his generation who had an undiagnosed gluten sensitivity.

[REP]

114. You must not know anyone of Celtic descent; Celiac disease is very common in that group

Along with wheat allergy (not "gluten intolerance" but actual allergic reaction). I'm only 50, but I can't remember not knowing about celiac sprue.

[PatSeg]

143. Actually I am much older than you

and of Celtic descent. I don't recall anyone talking about Celiac disease until recent years.

[womanofthehills]

98. Wheat is drenched with glyphosate right before harvest - farmer's won't eat the wheat they grow

It might as well be GMO wheat because of the glyphosate contamination. Organic wheat is being contaminated by drift. Many people now think gluten intolerance is really Roundup intolerance. I am now avoiding wheat big time because most Americans who have been tested, have glyphosate in their bodies. Herbicides and pesticides mess with your digestion big time.

Why Is Glyphosate Sprayed on Crops Right Before Harvest?

“Farmers there often had trouble getting wheat and barley to dry evenly so they can start harvesting. So they came up with the idea to kill the crop (with glyphosate) one to two weeks before harvest to accelerate the drying down of the grain," he said.
The pre-harvest use of glyphosate allows farmers to harvest crops as much as two weeks earlier than they normally would, an advantage in northern, colder regions.

“I have talked with millers of conventionally produced grain and they all agree it's very difficult to source oats, wheat, flax and triticale, which have not been sprayed with glyphosate prior to harvest," he said. “It's a 'don't ask, don't tell policy' in the industry."

“We are told these (glyphosate residues) are too small to matter but can we believe that?" the Saskatchewan farmer asked. “I think everyone, even farmers that use and love glyphosate, would rather not eat a loaf of bread with glyphosate in it."

http://www.ecowatch.com/why-is-glyphosate-sprayed-on-crops-right-before-harvest-1882187755.html

[Warpy]

107. By your reasoning, I should react strongly to corn

and I don't and I do eat a lot of it, from pasta to posole. Corn and soybean crops are where most glyphosate is used. I don't react to either.

It's the wheat.

[womanofthehills]

112. Wheat is sprayed with glyphosate sometimes just days before harvest

Wheat actually has some of the highest levels of glyphosate along with eggs.

[Warpy]

113. Days? No, that doesn't give it a chance to kill and dry up all the weeds

that gum up the blades in the combines. A couple of weeks is about the minimum, plenty of time for it to biodegrade on seed heads up on top of the stalk in full sun.

You are being sadly disinformed.

Meanwhile, back at the farm, corn and soybeans are soaked rather frequently with it and I don't react to either.

[phylny]

121. I avoid wheat because I'm obese and it's

impossible for me to lose weight if wheat is in my diet. I won't call myself "gluten intolerant" but I'm avoiding grains in my ongoing struggle to lose weight.

[840high]

75. The only organic I buy

is coconut oil.

[G_j]

76. lol

Last edited Thu Jul 14, 2016, 05:50 PM - Edit history (1)

[HuckleB]

77. Funny that I never see you post this to the repeated anti-science, anti-GMO posts.

And those are repeating debunked disinformation. This is not.

Hmm.

[PatSeg]

81. Again and again and again!

The word of the day is "scam", but the rest is the same old stuff!

[Rex]

87. Life is a scam...

Scams are a scam.

[pnwmom]

95. I don't get it. What is automatically a lie about their product?

Why can't a pasta product be gluten free, peanut free, organic, GMO-free, vegetarian and vegan-certified, and kosher?

I'd love it if gluten-free pasta could be as cheap as regular pasta, but people with food sensitivities have to take what they can get. And unfortunately the government doesn't require food producers to label gluten, which makes things that much harder. The producers who voluntarily label products as gluten-free know they can get away with charging more.

[HuckleB]

136. You didn't bother to look at the lies they use in their marketing.

And you didn't bother to remember that organic is just a con artist's marketing label.

This company makes Portlandia pale in comparison.

[opiate69]

103. This kind of shit cracks me up...

Chanterelles are not cultivated. Any chanterelles you see in the market grew entirely without the assitance of human hands. Labelling them as "organic" is simply mind-numbingly fuck-nuts stupid. I guess "organic" is more palatable to the WholePaycheck demographic than "wild".

[fleabiscuit]

109. I'm pretty sure there is a scam involved.

Last edited Fri Jul 15, 2016, 09:34 PM - Edit history (1)

Organic used to simply be... “Organic agriculture is an ecological production management system that promotes and enhances biodiversity, biological cycles and soil biological activity. It is based on minimal use of off-farm inputs and on management practices that restore, maintain and enhance ecological harmony.”-USDA

See you at our farmers market. It's on Wednesday.

[raven mad]

116. I'd be willing to place a small wager -

that the moose steaks and burger in my freezer are probably organic......... except that the trees (willow) they graze on may not be.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

117. Organic is better than alternatives. Is your last name Bunker?

Archie Bunker...

[HuckleB]

134. Archie Bunker is exactly like the pro-organic supporters.

Whining about bad things that aren't actually bad.

Whoops.

Organic is not better than anything else. It is one of the most disgusting marketing scams in history.

[PatSeg]

147. You know

People might take you a bit more seriously if you didn't overstate your position so often. "One of the most disgusting marketing scams in history"? Like lead in paint and gasoline? Or tobacco? DDT? The health benefits of soft drinks?

[HuckleB]

151. Cute.

So you admit that it's a scam, then.

Awesome.

[PatSeg]

160. Oh, very clever

deflection there! I was not, of course, admitting that organic products are a scam, but that you overstate your positions too often, which in turn makes any debate pointless. My high school debate instructor would have docked you some points for that.

[HuckleB]

162. No deflection at all.

You seem to think that my statement is not true because there are other scams that may be bigger. That's false.

Do you believe it's a scam? If not, then you have no further point on this matter.

[Major Nikon]

249. Pretty much just like that

So called "organic" marketing relies on instilling fear about non-existent dangers of wholesome food sources, which turns people away from fresh produce or compels those who can't afford it to buy overpriced food out of irrational fear for zero benefit.

[Major Nikon]

235. "Our regulations do not address food safety or nutrition."

https://www.ams.usda.gov/about-ams/programs-offices/national-organic-program

[get the red out]

156. I don't know about scam....

Products get what people are willing to pay. I know that since my beloved "old hippy" Co-op went all upper-crust, wine and cheese to compete with Whole Foods, I've not been able to buy anything there unless they are having a serious sale. And there are products with ingredient combinations that I LOVE and have trouble finding elsewhere.

I have had to find out for myself that Gluten-free products are important, not just a fad. I have begun suffering from horrific IBS and Gluten makes it worse.

[karynnj]

174. Not a scam - a quick look shows that it is from a high end company

ie a luxury product. Fresh pasta is ALWAYS far more expensive than the dried version. It also has a different texture and taste than the dried pasta. Even among dried pasta, the price varies between the cheapest store brand and the more expensive ones. It is your choice. I have no idea how much the Oggi pasta charges, but I have bought other fresh pastas ... and have made them.

Like soap, pasta is something that most of us can afford the luxury version, IF WE WANT TO SPEND THE EXTRA MONEY. Obviously, you see no value in doing so.

Are you next going to post that a Tiffany diamond ring costs more than the Zales?

[HuckleB]

187. Yes, it is a scam.

This company markets itself by lying about other products, and the only thing that makes it "high end" is those lies. How did you miss that part of the equation?

[karynnj]

190. Your link does not work -- so I looked at the various links I could find including their own website

I think all fresh pasta tends to be high end. Could you explain what you mean by "lying about other products?"

[HuckleB]

191. That's hilarious. The company deleted the posts and all the critical posts about it.

It looks like it deleted all the posts about the topic in the visitors section, too.

Classic corporate crap.

[karynnj]

206. That is hilarious - and rather predictable as it was their page

It does bring back a memory from the mid 1990s. My two oldest socially aware daughters, both preteens or younger, concerned about the fact that Beanie Babies were as cheap as they were, posted a very polite inquiry on the Beanie Baby site asking if they used child labor or exploited labor. We knew nothing of this until the next day, when 2 very irate kids told us that their question was not just not answered, but was removed. The younger, a 9 or 10 year old, angrily said that she had read the TOS and had not done anything wrong. They had already rewrote them. It did stop them --and their younger sister -- from buying any more Beanie Babies.

Now, I have no idea what labor was used, but thought it good they were asking questions.

[TexasBushwhacker]

186. Fresh frozen pastas are always higher priced

The cost to the grocer for organic products is higher. It's all a matter of supply and demand. The price the grocer charges is set to sell the maximum product at the maximum price. It's called capitalism. If you don't want to pay the prices of organic goods, you are free to buy conventional.

You seem to be upset that anyone would be willing to pay the price for organic. Isn't that their choice? By offering organic products, retailers are just offering what some customers want.

People choose to buy organic goods for many different reasons. While organic food isn't more nutritious, it is lower in pesticide residues. Personally, I care about the pesticides, fertilizers and herbicides affect on the environment, as well as the effects on animals and farm workers exposed to them.

Personally I buy organic and grass fed/pastured when I can afford to. It's not a scam, it's a choice.

[HuckleB]

188. The OP is not happy because the marketing is dishonest.

And it's dishonest in some very bizarre ways. The company has been called out on Facebook, but it has not been able to support its claims.

[TexasBushwhacker]

194. Fair enough

But I think the OP has a beef with organic foods in general and don't really understand why.

[PatSeg]

195. I still don't see any dishonesty

and no one as yet as said what is dishonest about their marketing.

[HuckleB]

205. So you never bothered to look at the link to their fiction-based Facebook attack.

Oh, boy.

That's one hell of a confession.

[HuckleB]

207. Well, perhaps because organic is just a marketing term.

And the entire industry works to demonize other foods despite the fact that organic is no better.

So, there's that.

http://groundedparents.com/2014/12/19/why-this-mom-boycotts-organic-and-will-never-shop-at-whole-foods/

[DisgustipatedinCA]

197. You and one other poster are heavily, heavily invested in turning people against organics.

Heavily invested.

Why is that?

[G_j]

199. I doubt if it's working

just getting a lot of people spinning their wheels for nothing. Time wasters..

[DisgustipatedinCA]

200. I wouldn't think that it's money well-spent, not at a dying website.

[PatSeg]

214. It does keep some of us on our toes though

I doubt that they are changing any minds here, but it has motivated me to learn more about factory farming, GMOs, and glyphosate. So in that sense, they are doing me a favor.

[HuckleB]

220. You have no idea how many people have changed their minds.

In fact, most of us who support science on this issue changed our minds. Most people won't bother to take the crap that pseudoscience lovers push, however.

Whoops.

BTW, looking for conspiracy pages that support your preconceptions is not learning. It is just working hard to maintain your baseless beliefs.

[PatSeg]

226. Oh, I really do have an idea

You can delude yourself that on a site like DU, people are easily manipulated into supporting Monsanto, GMOs, glyphosate, etc. Just because they quit arguing with you, doesn't mean they agree with you. When the arguments go from evidence to personal attacks, reasonable people move on.

You can't insult people into agreeing with you.

[HuckleB]

230. Oh, you do not.

You can continue to paint others as something they are not, but you can't fool most people. I have received plenty of PMs over time thanking me for challenging the con artists of the pseudoscience crowd.

Your delusions may hold sway with the already fooled, but those delusions will lose out, eventually. People do come to realize the scam is a scam over time.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

242. You've received private PM's? Well that changes everything.

Oh wait, it doesn't. Why don't you make sure you never eat anything organic, while the rest of us go and do what we want to do, what we're going to do, irrespective of your attempts.

[PatSeg]

243. It reminds me a bit of Trump

"People are telling me............" "I've been hearing............"

[DisgustipatedinCA]

244. This poster has totally been vindicated by private message.

We just need to learn to have more trust when we're told that organics are bad and Monsanto is good.

[PatSeg]

245. Based on what I've heard here today

I am quitting organic cold turkey! I hate to throw food away, so I'll buy some Roundup and spray it on my inferior organic fruits and vegetables.

I've seen the light and the error of my ways.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

247. Exactly correct. Round Up only kills bad things. I'm a good person.

That's why I plan to start drinking it.

Have a great weekend.

[PatSeg]

248. Same to you!

That's the best laugh I've had all day!!!

[HuckleB]

251. You can keep believing your fictions.

No one is stopping you. Others choose to look into the reality. I'm sorry that bothers you.

[G_j]

279. I seriously doubt

you have changed minds with that condescending attitude. Yea, yea, we know you are of superior intelligence.

[PatSeg]

281. But, but

he cares about his fellow human beings. That is why he does this, like a crusade I suppose.

[HuckleB]

287. Of course you would.

And you would ignore many realities by doing so.

[HuckleB]

203. Why do some people work to point out scams?

Perhaps its because they care about their fellow humans.

Hmm.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

208. Yeah. You go with that. Best of luck.

[HuckleB]

210. I know that.

The greater question is why would anyone support an industry whose sole aim is to demonize its competition with fictions, in order to increase its profits, despite the fact that its products are no better than those of its competition?

Can you answer that?

http://groundedparents.com/2014/12/19/why-this-mom-boycotts-organic-and-will-never-shop-at-whole-foods/

[DisgustipatedinCA]

236. I don't submit myself to your questions.

I don't trust your motives.

[HuckleB]

265. So you'll gladly pony up to organic scam artists, while questioning my motives.

I guess we know where you stand, but one has to wonder what your motives are in defending such unethical business practices. Hmm.

Thanks for kicking this thread, btw.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

267. I'll do precisely what I want to do, no more, no less.

You, your words, and your existence will play no part at all in the decisions I make. Glad to have cleared that up for you.

[HuckleB]

288. That's so cool.

And wrong, as you have already demonstrated by responding, over and over again.

[stevenleser]

284. FWIW I don't agree with you either, but information with facts and research has to be factored in

if you are a thinking, logical and science based person.

If I see more evidence that supports your point I will have to change my mind.

[HuckleB]

289. Well, that evidence has been posted over and over again.

And it is the scientific consensus. So you will have to change your mind, then.

[PatSeg]

209. Actually

there are 30+ posters at DU who are heavily invested in anti organic dogma. And on a progressive site too. I wonder, why is that?

[HuckleB]

211. You have that backwards.

There are many posters at DU who fight pro-organic dogma, which is based in fictions, because they care about science and evidence, not dogma.

Why can't you be honest about that?

http://groundedparents.com/2014/12/19/why-this-mom-boycotts-organic-and-will-never-shop-at-whole-foods/

[Vilis Veritas]

198. Go ahead and eat whatever you want.

I don't tell you what to eat please stop trying to tell others.

I spent a lot of time in Arkansas. Poisonous soil from years of agent orange used to defoliate the trees for logging. Toxic dumps sites on private farms, heavy use of roundup by all the local farmers I know...etc. One of the highest cancer rates in the country, at least in the area where we lived.

I could careless how much you jump up and down and claim organic is a scam. As I sit here at MDA and talk to the myriad of Drs that claim eating as cleanly as you can is a priority, I do my best to see that I pick the cleanest versions of food for my family that I can. The soil is poisonous in most of the us due to industrial pollution and heavy metals so go ahead, keep spouting whatever you want, my friend.

I'll keep buying whatever I want and eating as cleanly as I can. You can do whatever you want. It is called freedom of choice.

[HuckleB]

204. "Clean eating" is another silly scam.

And MDs know better than to buy into that nonsense, so perhaps you should pause before you make more baseless claims.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/should-you-be-eating-clean/

[Vilis Veritas]

212. Like I said I couldn't two ducks what you say.

I'll do whatever I want. You do what you want.

These are not just MD's...MDA has the finest cancer researchers in the world. I'll keep paying attention to them rather than some bullshit anecdotal comment made by some thread sitter on a blog.

[PatSeg]

215. "Thread sitter"

[HuckleB]

219. In other words, what you say is simply not supported by a consensus of evidence.

And your baseless claims are, well, baseless. I know you don't care about reality. If you did, you wouldn't make a claim that you know is not true.

[Vilis Veritas]

225. I think they got your paycheck ready.

You do not know me and your post is insulting.

Go sit somewhere else.

I trust the researchers that are actively researching cancer and its causes and oh yea, saving my fucking life...what have you ever done for me?

Nothing.

[HuckleB]

231. And the shill gambit pops up.

It's also known as the admission that you can't support your nonsense.

Nicely done.

[Orrex]

293. You don't know what you're talking about

Big Agra pays us shills via direct deposit, stock options or other generous compensation packages. They certainly don't bother with paychecks anymore.


Paychecks. How quaint!

[Major Nikon]

227. That works both ways

I couldn't care less if someone want to pay more for their food for no good reason. The problem comes in when they expect others to pay more for their chemophobia.

[Vilis Veritas]

228. I don't expect anyone to do anything

the thread sitters here are the ones berating anyone with an opposing view...

Again, I couldn't care less what you think or do, I'm not telling anyone here what to do.

Last time I checked I had a limited amount of freewill as do you.

[Major Nikon]

233. Regardless whether you do or not, some do

Everyone is entitled to all the freewill they want so long as it doesn't impose on others

[HuckleB]

234. Somehow you ignore all the pro-organic, anti-science threads pushed at DU.

And you offer up the shill gambit. Your "I don't care" nonsense doesn't appear to be as accurate as you would like people to believe.

Hmm.

[Vilis Veritas]

237. I respectfully disagree.

Whatever you believe or do is fine with me.

I'm not the one thread sitting here since yesterday.

I've only been here for about an hour to kill some time while getting a transfusion. It is finished and so am I. Gotta go my friend.

Enjoy your pasta. Toodles to your noodles.

[PatSeg]

239. You did this while getting a transfusion?

Wow.

There are those who don't realize that this is not some obscure theoretical debate for some of us. There are some very real life and death repercussions that many of us have to face. Seeking better options is often an absolute necessity.

Good luck to you!

[HuckleB]

252. So then you'll give us links to similar posts in response to those threads.

I'll be waiting...

[AngryAmish]

261. If I read "Orgasms are a scam" one more time...

I'll have to visit a website or two to prove you wrong.

[NuclearDem]

262. "Orgasms are a scam"

wat

[HuckleB]

263. Well....

[Warren DeMontague]

271. No no no. They're "a scream"

At least, if you're doing it right.

[Orrex]

294. It seems that the discussion has prematurely reached a climax

[fleabiscuit]

268. Anyone familiar with "organic" knows it's about the whole process. What's the "scam?"

You don't seem familiar with "organic" at all.

[PatSeg]

275. There is no "scam"

It is another fruitless effort to promote chemical laden foods and ridicule people who choose to eat organic foods, all apparently in the name of Science and of course, to educate those of us who are science-impaired.

Do not question the corporate masters and their tactics. It is all in our best interests!

[fleabiscuit]

276. The scam is the proclaimed scam.

[PatSeg]

280. It is like something

out of Karl Rove's playbook. Or as Joseph Goebbels would say, "Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty."

[fleabiscuit]

282. Yes! It's "corporate."

[PatSeg]

283. Agreed

It is too well orchestrated and consistent to be random. Personally I find it rather invasive and very rude most of the time. It seems like the Internet has really changed the past few years. I notice it especially on Democratic Underground.

Have a good nice!

[HuckleB]

297. Your post here is just evidence that you have been conned by the scam.

It's just meaningless fear mongering. The very scam marketing that is behind this nonsense.

[PatSeg]

299. I've been conned???

Oh dear!!!

[HuckleB]

302. Too bad you choose to pretend otherwise.

Plenty of people have tried to help you help yourself.

[PatSeg]

304. I know, I know

I should truly be more grateful.

[HuckleB]

291. It's nothing but a marketing scam.

You don't appear to be familiar with the reality at all. Hmm.

http://groundedparents.com/2014/12/19/why-this-mom-boycotts-organic-and-will-never-shop-at-whole-foods/

[fleabiscuit]

300. No worries. We know marketing, we're Americans.

Relax, go grab a movie on the net and watch it, perhaps the “Dirty Dozen™ for 2016.”

Don’t worry about it. Don’t care about what goes in or on your food, or the soil. It's all marketing. A scam.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/health/natural-health/pesticides/index.htm

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2015/01/how-much-arsenic-is-in-your-rice/index.htm
http://www.consumerreports.org/health/fda-proposes-limit-on-arsenic-in-infant-rice-cereal/


Anywho, as was said earlier by Vilis Veritas, Toodles to your noodles.

[HuckleB]

301. Ah, the scam fear mongers at EWG?

http://chemistscorner.com/3-reasons-the-ewg-is-dubious-resource/

http://dailycaller.com/2015/08/17/the-nontoxic-scam-scaremongering-for-fun-and-profit/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-stir/sunscreen-ewg-sunscreen-r_b_589119.html

And the anti-science nonsense from Consumer Reports?

http://www.thefarmersdaughterusa.com/2014/10/calling-out-consumer-reports.html

Thanks for choosing to continue to ignore the reality, and fall for the marketing con.

[PatSeg]

303. Thanks for the links

"Consumer Reports" - Is that one of those pseudo science woo sites?

[HuckleB]

307. If you bothered to truly read, you would see that it has gone over the rails.

But you prefer to find things that support your preconceptions, so you won't care. You know all those FOIAs the anti-GMOers have been tossing at real scientists, and finding out that, well, they are real scientists. Well, the FOIA routine went the other way, guess which "independent" organization was found to be working behind the scenes with various anti-GMO outfits?

And that's only for starters:

http://atomicinsights.com/consumer-reports-editor-clings-to-lnt-to-spread-uncertainty-about-radiology/

Oh, boy.

[PatSeg]

308. You know

Politics is too interesting today, so not much time for this kind of banter.

The RNC convention is a real circus!

Maybe another time.

[HuckleB]

309. If you like pointless silliness, sure.

Oh, I forgot. That is your thing. But way to do the usual, and choose to ignore that which you don't want to know.

[PatSeg]

310. ?????

Seriously?!?!?

[HuckleB]

311. Oh, goodness.

[cheapdate]

277. I have a tub of organic plums from my backyard. It's no scam.

[HuckleB]

298. Have you spent the money to have those plums certified as organic?

[cheapdate]

313. No need. I pick them when they're ripe and eat them.

[HuckleB]

314. But then you can't call them organic.

[cheapdate]

315. I just did.

[HuckleB]

318. That's not how the marketing system works.

And you claimed it wasn't a scam.

[cheapdate]

324. Please, tell me more about the "marketing system".

And please use West Wind Organic Farm of Morgan County, Tennessee as an example (since they're "all" the same.)

[HuckleB]

325. Does this small producer use more land to grow the same amount of food as conventional farmers?

Of course it does. And yet it also pretends it's resource hogging food is better than other products, for no good reason.

Well, then...

PS: https://foodscienceinstitute.com/2016/07/19/organic-valley-highlights-inauthenticity-with-the-usual-lies/

[cheapdate]

346. I'm certain that you have no idea

what products are produced or how much land is used to produce them at West Wind Organic Farm in Morgan County, Tennessee.

So you're simply talking shit, again, as you've been doing throughout.

Second, you obviously have no interest in any consideration of farming practices within a broader ecological or ethical context.

And as I've seen enough of your obtuse insistence on worst-case examples to "prove the rule", I'm not going to waste any more of my time explaining, for instance, the difference between healthy, living soil and dead, inert, dirt, or explaining how to see a farm as something connected to the surrounding ecology and why that matters.

Believe what you want.

[Major Nikon]

347. "Organic" is a marketing term

The National Organic Program is managed by the USDA's marketing service. Organic certification contains no guarantee of food safety, nutrition, or any of the things you mentioned. Believing otherwise does not make it so.

[HuckleB]

350. I'm certain that I know enough to know the reality.

Last edited Wed Jul 20, 2016, 07:43 PM - Edit history (1)

And you know that, too. You just don't seem to be willing to acknowledge the reality, because you have a belief system that you must defend. Evidence does not matter to you.

http://nutritionwonderland.com/2009/12/the-truth-about-organic-farming/

[PatSeg]

332. Well then

I guess you CAN!

[TexasBushwhacker]

317. She can call them organic. She just cannot sell them

as organic with the USDA label.

[HuckleB]

319. Except she tried to pretend that this showed organic isn't a scam.

Last edited Wed Jul 20, 2016, 10:52 AM - Edit history (1)

Whoops.

PS: https://foodscienceinstitute.com/2016/07/19/organic-valley-highlights-inauthenticity-with-the-usual-lies/

[Major Nikon]

348. You could also call them road apples if you wanted

...and it would be no more relevant to whether the term "organic" (which doesn't even mean organic) is any less of a scam.