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Sun Jun 10, 2012, 11:36 AM

OK, time to post again the 14 defining characteristics of fascism.

Here they are:
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Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

From Liberty Forum
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Sounds familiar? No need to discuss each point as they happen, it's all in there, the same problem, the rise of fascism.

I do believe that if Obama were to wake up and listen to his own speeches from 2008, commit to peace and stop all this compromising with fascists, he might be able to stem the tide, by exposing it, and presenting policies that the media would have to report, and that are not in the fascist line. But he hasn't done it so far, and President Romney would be the final piece in the puzzle.
Otherwise, all fascist regimes eventually lose, as they destroy the very foundation upon which they live, but it might take quite a while.

74 replies, 9444 views

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Arrow 74 replies Author Time Post
Reply OK, time to post again the 14 defining characteristics of fascism. (Original post)
judy Jun 2012 OP
AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2012 #1
judy Jun 2012 #8
CanonRay Jun 2012 #2
Cal33 Jun 2012 #3
judy Jun 2012 #6
Cal33 Jun 2012 #7
DLevine Jun 2012 #4
libodem Jun 2012 #5
siligut Jun 2012 #9
Egalitarian Thug Jun 2012 #10
rhett o rick Jun 2012 #11
byeya Jun 2012 #47
rhett o rick Jun 2012 #48
Mustellus Jun 2012 #12
The Doctor. Jun 2012 #44
liberalnationalist Jun 2012 #13
coalition_unwilling Jun 2012 #14
SoutherDem Jun 2012 #15
Nye Bevan Jun 2012 #16
hfojvt Jun 2012 #18
mathematic Jun 2012 #17
annabanana Jun 2012 #19
mathematic Jun 2012 #28
Doctor_J Jun 2012 #32
mathematic Jun 2012 #33
The Doctor. Jun 2012 #41
daaron Jun 2012 #54
mathematic Jun 2012 #59
daaron Jun 2012 #61
kestrel91316 Jun 2012 #21
mathematic Jun 2012 #29
Creideiki Jun 2012 #64
frazzled Jun 2012 #20
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2012 #22
Nye Bevan Jun 2012 #23
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2012 #24
Jamaal510 Jun 2012 #25
cthulu2016 Jun 2012 #26
judy Jun 2012 #70
MineralMan Jun 2012 #27
Doctor_J Jun 2012 #30
MineralMan Jun 2012 #31
Nye Bevan Jun 2012 #34
MineralMan Jun 2012 #35
Igel Jun 2012 #36
JDPriestly Jun 2012 #40
AJTheMan Jun 2012 #37
Phhhtttt Jun 2012 #38
The Doctor. Jun 2012 #42
Phhhtttt Jun 2012 #45
NoPasaran Jun 2012 #50
MineralMan Jun 2012 #51
The Doctor. Jun 2012 #53
Phhhtttt Jun 2012 #58
The Doctor. Jun 2012 #68
Phhhtttt Jun 2012 #73
The Doctor. Jun 2012 #74
JDPriestly Jun 2012 #39
Cave_Johnson Jun 2012 #43
The Doctor. Jun 2012 #46
Cave_Johnson Jun 2012 #60
The Doctor. Jun 2012 #62
Cave_Johnson Jun 2012 #63
The Doctor. Jun 2012 #65
Cave_Johnson Jun 2012 #66
The Doctor. Jun 2012 #67
The Doctor. Jun 2012 #69
Kingofalldems Jun 2012 #72
lunatica Jun 2012 #49
truebrit71 Jun 2012 #55
sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #56
colsohlibgal Jun 2012 #52
hughee99 Jun 2012 #57
cbrer Jun 2012 #71

Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 11:57 AM

1. Thank you for the reminder.

 

While I appreciate your post, I disagree re "if Obama were to wake up ..." I think that President Obama is fully awake.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #1)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 12:33 PM

8. I hope you are right about Obama...

But if he is, why does he cater to American exceptionalism, giving it all to the military, cultivating enemies, not respecting the most basic of human rights, etc. why does he continue GWB's policies?
I firmly believe, that if he changed, and made his actions follow the words of his speeches from 2008, he would be re-elected without problem, Citizens United or not.
Otherwise, I don't see how he can galvanize the troops to beat the Power of Money.

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 11:57 AM

2. 14/14 by my count...

Sieg Heil!

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 12:06 PM

3. Let's help to spread this message far and wide. It's precisely the ones who have fallen for

the right-wing propaganda who need to read this -- and they are exactly the ones who
rarely get to hear any of this.

Do I have your permission to spread your message around? Thanks.

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Response to Cal33 (Reply #3)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 12:27 PM

6. Oh, it is not my message

But that of Dr. Lawrence Britt, you might just need to mention him...the 14 points are all over the web, so I am sure it is OK to spread them...
Here is a YouTube video with Mike Malloy reading the points;


There is no doubt that this is what is going on. I never thought the pendulum of fascism would come back the other way in my lifetime.
Good luck with those who have fallen, though...their eyes are closed, and they reserve the comparison to Hitler for Obama himself, which is another proof of the depths of their ignorance.

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Response to judy (Reply #6)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 12:32 PM

7. Many thanks.

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 12:09 PM

4. K&R. n/t

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 12:17 PM

5. OMG

It's here. Pretty much.

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 12:33 PM

9. Nothing new under the sun

The fascists certainly aren't creative enough to follow a different route.

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 12:37 PM

10. I wonder how many people read this list every day and realize they are living in it?

 

The pendulum always swings, it just swings much faster to the right and stops short of its full leftward arc. Must be the giant bag of money tied to the pivot.

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 12:38 PM

11. I again recommend reading Alexamder Cockburn's article "So Who's the Fascist Here?"

In the May 21, 2012, issue of "The Nation" mag.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #11)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 08:25 AM

47. People jump all over Cockburn but I've read him for years and he's

 

correct much more often than he errs and he takes up topics even other progressive writers don't.

He's a little like Uncle Whiskers: He makes his share of mistakes but he gets it right when it counts.

(That is an excellent article.)

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Response to byeya (Reply #47)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 08:57 AM

48. I feel bad for the people that have their fingers in their ears, eyes closed,

quietly saying over and over quietly "it's not fascism, it's not fascism".

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 12:43 PM

12. How about a Holocaust, for good measure ?????

We already have a "christian" religion that has crossed over the edge, and is preaching mass murder as the path to salvation.

Because the Left Behind series are now the last 7 books of the Bible.

And if we kill all the Islams, then Jebus will Rapture us into heaven and we won't have to die !!!


Just as Martin Luther's anti-semitism was used by the Nazi's to justify their Holocaust, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism , the Baptist church, in its drive to force Jesus back at gunpoint, if necessary, is hoping for the biggest mass murder in human history.

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Response to Mustellus (Reply #12)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 07:35 AM

44. Very true.

 

It's only the rapture christians who think the world has to die for them to be 'saved', but there are tens of millions of them and they want it bad.

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 12:50 PM

13. this sounds

 

exactly like the platform of the republican party

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 12:56 PM

14. While I find this list useful and generally accurate, it by no means is

 

comprehensive.

I'm thinking specifically of a missing 15th characteristic which is the consolidation of the one-party state. With that 15th element, there are at least a few reasons why the United States is not fascist. Specifically, we still have a (at least nominal) two-party state. Our elections for the most part are not fraudulent. And the Secretary of State is female.

A possible 16th element might be the creation of ersatz 'mass movements' (like the fascisti in Mussolini's Italy or the brownshirts in pre-1933 Germany). The Tea Party shows signs of going in that direction but I don't think it's quite there yet. Not to say it won't get there at some point, but that it remains a 'potential' for now.

Are there fascists among the Republican Party? Sure. Is the Republican Party 'fascist'? Not yet, although it's a lot closer than it was in the 60s and 70s. Is the USA 'fascist'? Not even close.

In order for Walker to have won his recall, there had to be a 'recall' election first. Such an election would simply be unthinkable in a fascist regime.

K&R for the educational and discussion value of the OP, though!

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 12:58 PM

15. I thought you were going to post the...

14 defining characteristics of fascism, those are the 14 defining characteristics of Republicans, oh wait. There the same.

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 01:01 PM

16. If we are living under fascism, is Obama = Hitler? (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #16)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 01:14 PM

18. that's what I wondered too

but maybe he's just Idi Amin

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 01:13 PM

17. Thanks for posting this

I know in the DU bubble it's popular to declare the US a fascist state but since we only satisfy at most 1 or 2 of the 14 conditions it's clear the US is not fascist. This should be a useful educational tool for those that think we're one step away from extermination camps.

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Response to mathematic (Reply #17)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 01:43 PM

19. Really? Only "1 or 2" of the above?

Which ones?

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Response to annabanana (Reply #19)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 02:40 PM

28. Yes, really.

The one condition that we best meet is the first one, "Powerful and Continuing Nationalism". While we don't have government mandated flag waving on TV or giant pictures of our President on billboards (outside of election season, of course!), it's still safe to say the people really do seem to love the United States. Go figure.

The iffy second condition is "Corporate Power is Protected". If it's on the list solely to distinguish right-authoritarianism from left-authoritarianism then any nation that protects private property rights and has a free market capitalist system (which, for reference, includes all european nations) satisfies this condition. If this condition means that corporations control and dictate government policy then, no, we do not satisfy this condition.

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Response to mathematic (Reply #28)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 02:55 PM

32. You're drunk on Kool-Aid

If this condition means that corporations control and dictate government policy then, no, we do not satisfy this condition.


Stop watching Fox "News" all day. It is almost impossible to distinguish our formerly democratic government from the corporations. Have you completely missed ALEC? The 30,000 blood suckers who make their extravagant livings as "lobbyists". Who do you think is preventing the discussion of single payer health care, when more than 70% of the citizenry want it?

Enjoy your brief stay

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #32)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 02:59 PM

33. Man, I don't even own a TV.

As for the troll accusation: stuff it bro. The US isn't a fascist country.

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Response to mathematic (Reply #33)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 07:04 AM

41. Once Republicans get the helm again we'll be barrelling right back towards fascism.

 

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Response to mathematic (Reply #28)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 10:40 AM

54. The U.S. and Europe do NOT have a "free market capitalist system".

 

He have had a "mixed economy" since the Great Depression. Most of Europe operates under some form of weak socialism. There are no free market capitalist industrialized nations, as any college Macroeconomics textbook will in short order inform.

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Response to daaron (Reply #54)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 12:03 PM

59. What's with posters around here.

The guy upthread assumes I watch fox news when I don't have a TV, much less cable. You assume I've never read a macro textbook when I have D. Romer's Advanced Macroeconomics within arms reach of my computer. Which, incidentally, does not say that there are no free market capitalist industrialized nations.

While you may prefer to eject "capitalist" from the language in favor of "mixed economy", this isn't an entirely useful exercise. As for "free market"... my macro text is 90% models of individual or firm behavior that rely on a free market or of models agnostic to the issue (eg growth models). The chapter on government deficits is an exception.

You know what's really frustrating? Dealing with libertarian purists with an internet message board knowledge of economics (or worse, an ideological intro undergrad text level knowledge) that insist that taxes, regulation, and government spending means we don't have a free market and we're not capitalist* (yes, I know, "mixed economy" but what the heck is the point of the term if it doesn't actually refer to anything that is or ever was.)

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Response to mathematic (Reply #59)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 05:30 PM

61. I'm not sure what's worse. Someone upthread assuming you watch TV.

 

Or you assuming I'm a libertarian purist!

How entertaining is thisn't?

Call it what you want, but free market capitalism is a misleading and inaccurate term, and applying it to Europe is intellectually dishonest. Whipping one's degree out never helps in an internet argument never helps. I refer you to Rule #16 of the Internet: "There are NO girls on the internet." The person claiming to be a "girl" (in this case, resorting to a degree for authority) must "prove it."

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Response to mathematic (Reply #17)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 02:01 PM

21. Only 1 or 2?? Get out from under that rock. We meet all 14 criteria

since Bush got into office and the RW capitalized on 9/11.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #21)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 02:45 PM

29. I wish it was just a rock.

They have me chained up for posting subversive political opinions on the internet.

I know, I know. First they came for the alleged violent political terrorists...

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Response to mathematic (Reply #17)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 07:17 PM

64. It's possible to see only 1 or 2 of the 14 conditions

at a time. If, and only if, you've got a very small viewing window that only shows 1 or 2 of the criteria at a time.

Look at what happened to Chris Hayes for challenging the term "hero" for everyone who serves in the military--as a veteran, I can assure that not everyone is a "hero". Then we can add the glorification of the military.

Do we really have to dissect the rest of these for you?

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 02:00 PM

20. Who is this Lawrence/Laurence Britt?

His "doctor" moniker doesn't seem to make him a professor of anything. Can't find him anywhere on the Internet except for this repeated post, which appears, not surprisingly, on the conspiracy site rense.com; in another place he (Laurence with a "U") has written a novel.

Why are we even discussing this?

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Response to frazzled (Reply #20)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 02:05 PM

22. Given he is not the only one who has discussed this



So why not tell us what you find controversial about his 14 points?

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Response to frazzled (Reply #20)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 02:16 PM

23. "First of all, there is no 'Dr. Lawrence Britt'."

The author of the 14-point fascism inventory, Laurence Britt, is a former corporate executive who wrote and published a dystopian novel about right-wing extremism, titled June 2004, during the height of the Lewinsky scandal. That is, to the best of my knowledge, his only published volume.

In the real June 2004, he achieved some level of fame with an op-ed published in the humanist magazine Free Inquiry. This op-ed was forwarded around from inbox to inbox, and readers eventually began putting a "Dr." in front of his name and referring to him as a political scientist who had compiled the fascism inventory independently of the Bush administration. He had not done so, and had never claimed to do so. The article was, and had always been intended to be, an argument against the Bush administration.

.......

Or we could look at item 5, "Rampant sexism," and point out that it has not been very long that women could serve in the military, that we had never had a female governor (much less a viable female presidential candidate), that we had never had a female attorney general or female secretary of state, that birth control was illegal in many states, and on and on. We could look at item 8, "Religion and the ruling elite tied together," and point out that until four decades ago, the Lord's Prayer and Bible classes were part of our public school system. We could look at item 13, "Rampant cronyism and corruption," and remember the Savings and Loan scandal, Iran-Contra, and Watergate.


http://civilliberty.about.com/b/2007/09/10/one-nation-underrated.htm

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #23)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 02:28 PM

24. So the war on women's reproductive rights is

a figment of our collective imagination? I know, I know, all these laws passed in the states to roll back 50 years of reproductive rights are just our collective nervousness, and states that have seen the rise of a fascist state never, ever, saw sexism.

Moreover, he is NOT the first one to speak of this... in any way, shape or form.

I remember this in my Graduate level classes, oh back in the 1980s, when studying the Nazi regime, as well as Italy's regime, as well as the poli sci comparative government class.

I guess those people with actual PhDs were also dreaming...


If you want to fix on credentials fine. Go read a few history and poli sci journals. This comes up regularly.

Of course it also comes under the rubric of totalitarianism, but that is another story.

Phew, it is good to know that we all have imagined this.

Thanks, what a relief.

I now know all this is a figment of our collective imagination.

Free clue, serving in the armed forces IS NOT the only indicator of female equality, but I am positive you knew this,

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 02:33 PM

25. What's funny about this is that

I can name at least one example of each of these 14 traits from what the GOP does.

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 02:33 PM

26. I dislike the focus on the term "fascism"

These are not really defining traits of fascism. They are universal traits of a modern authoritarian state, and will be found in any such state independent of ostensible ideology.

Take Nazi Germany, Stalin's Russia and any Muslim Theocracy and we'll find that the methods and practices are pretty much the same despite the vast differences in ostensible ideology.

This is just how a totalitarian authoritarian state works. (Pharaoh's Egypt was probably much the same.)

Liberalism's historical charm is that it was anti-authoritarian categorically, and was able to condemn both the French Monarchy and the French Revolution.

(The reason the focus on "fascism" as if it were synonymous with authoritarian makes me uncomfortable in this context is that we are still a long way from completely getting over the right vs. left idea that there was a good guy and a bad guy on Germany versus Russia. It's a distorting idea.)

In his history of Europe (called EUROPE) Norman Davies spends a chapter running through a similar list of 17 points, expanded from from Arthur M. Hill's famous 15 points, that I find more interesting than this Lawrence Britt list. (Including the charming bullet point "Gangsterism," in the movement causing disorder and then selling themselves as protection from themselves.)

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #26)

Tue Jun 12, 2012, 11:00 AM

70. Ok, forget Mr. Britt. Here is another definition

http://www.anesi.com/Fascism-TheUltimateDefinition.htm

And here is a quote by Mr. Anesi:
“Fascism is a form of political and social behavior that arises when the middle class, finding its hopes frustrated by economic instability coupled with political polarization and deadlock, abandons traditional ideologies and turns, with the approbation of police and military forces, to a poorly-defined but emotionally appealing soteriology of national unity, immediate and direct resolution of problems, and intolerance for dissent.” (Chuck Anesi, 2008)

As for the word itself, it was used by Mussolini to represent unity at all costs, using the symbol of "fasces" a roman emblem with an axe bound in a bundle of rods. The French had a similar emblem during the "reign" of Marechal Petain, the hero of the First World War...So it became a symbol not of authoritarian rule (though it can include it as well as in the case of Mussolini or Franco) but of what Mr. Anesi is saying above.

I don't know who said that there as a good guy and a bad guy in Russia vs. Germany, but it certainly wasn't me. Stalin, one of the most violent dictators in history certainly applied the principles of fascism, except that in a communist regime, it is party cronyism and not multinational corporations that dictate policy (since the means of production are not private but "belong to the people").
The French Revolution was a bloody massacre, that ended up crowning an Emperor whose military hunger got most of the young men in France killed, as he pretended to conquer the World for France. The Russian Revolution gave them Stalin, the Man of Steel, a merciless despot and torturer...so where here is the value of violent Revolution? How does it differ from the ills of Monarchy?

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 02:36 PM

27. Liberty Forum?

Do you have a link for that, please?

Ron Paul has a "Liberty Forum." Is that where this came from? If not, please post a link, because, well, Fuck Ron Paul!

On Edit: Sure enough, there is the same post over on the Daily Paul.

http://www.dailypaul.com/237620/14-defining-characteristics-of-fascism

No, thanks, very much. Fuck Ron Paul!

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 02:46 PM

30. Anyone know when this list was compiled?

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #30)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 02:54 PM

31. Nope. From my search, the writer doesn't even exist

under that name. This has been bandied about in the Libertarian world for a very long time.

It's all over the internet, but there's no information on the author.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #31)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 03:22 PM

34. See Post 23 (nt)

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #34)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 03:30 PM

35. Thanks for the info!

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 10:20 PM

36. Suits China or the USSR, hardly fascist.

Of course, they flub the "religion" one. Then again, by comparison with the one really fascist state our religion is weak.

The corporation tie-in is more subtle. In the USSR the heads of corporations *were* the party bosses. In China, government officials and corporate heads merely influence each other a lot and it's hard to see which is "in charge." As the "religion" bullet point it's hard to apply directly.

If the US is fascist, think about what #14 is saying. That the Republicans--they're the opposition--are going to be the target of of manipulated smear campaigns.

The cronyism isn't rampant. Not by a long shot. It's more than it was in the US. But nothing like it was in the USSR, in China, even in Hitler's Germany. Perspective.

Free expression was banned for intellectuals and the arts. Seriously, you need some perspective. Similarity of sound, the applicability of a word in some sense doesn't mean identity of referent. My advisor was tenured at a large university. Because of a change in politics, his choice was to be tried or be exiled without a trial. He was an internal exile for 20 years. And he totally dropped and renounced his former research. It took 20 years to be forgiven, to build another scholarly reputation and be allowed to move back to his home town. He was lucky: He was allowed to continue to be a professor, to continue to work. A number of his colleagues weren't so lucky, and nobody ever knew who informed on them. He was never allowed to travel abroad. His father had been a writer: His father had the choice of writing the stories he was told to write, be a reporter as he was told, or be unemployed. He found a third choice: He drank himself to death.

If the US were fascist, Zinn would find himself in a black vehicle 3 a.m. tonight. The media wouldn't report it because it would never have happened. In a few weeks his colleagues would denounce him as anti-American, and either he would vanish or we'd read a note in which he confessed to being deluded and mistaken and accepted his retirement--anything to be able to serve his country and show loyalty to the Administration. At his own request, his writings would vanish from libraries and if you were found to have a copy it would possibly vanish from your bookshelf.

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Response to Igel (Reply #36)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 02:30 AM

40. We are still in the early phase of fascism, but it is here.

Back in the 1960s, we were much freer.

The internet has made surveillance the rule. It was never like that here..

We used to have real freedom to travel. We learned in school that our freedom to travel was one of the things that differentiated the US from countries like the USSR.

So, we are not as far along as the USSR or East Germany or China or NAZI Germany were/are, but we are on that slippery slope.

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 10:34 PM

37. Scary. This is why I find it hard to vote for Republicans.

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Response to judy (Original post)

Sun Jun 10, 2012, 10:42 PM

38. Flag Day is on the 14th of June.

Don't forget to proudly display your flag.

It is just a matter of time before we will be required to sign a loyalty oath.Man this country sucks.

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Response to Phhhtttt (Reply #38)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 07:26 AM

42. Welcome to DU.

 


Planning on hanging around a while?


So what's your problem with Flag Day? How is being encouraged to display the flag one day a year comparable to being compelled to do so daily?

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #42)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 07:42 AM

45. I can't stand the American flag.

It represents oppression to me.This country has not been good to me.If I could emigrate I would.

You can sign the loyality oath,Doctor,when it comes time to do so,not me.

Amerika Sucks!

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Response to Phhhtttt (Reply #45)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 09:03 AM

50. Let me know if you need a suitcase

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Response to Phhhtttt (Reply #45)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 09:10 AM

51. OK, then. How can we help you emigrate?

DU is a helpful place, and I'm sure everyone will pitch in. Do let us know which country you've chosen as your destination. DUers will gladly help you with details, I'm sure.

You can't stand the flag? Well, you probably don't want to drive by my house on national holidays, flag day, or other days commemorating historical events that have to do with national interests.

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Response to Phhhtttt (Reply #45)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 10:35 AM

53. Uh-huh.

 


Life isn't fair. The country isn't fair. We're all oppressed in some way if we aren't in the top 1%, and many of us are working to change that.

Most of us took an oath to the flag in school, and my loyalty is to The Constitution because despite our current state of corruption, it is still one of the best roadmaps for civilization ever. Anyone who believes that people should be free and civilized can find great value in The Constitution.

But your story isn't actually genuine, is it?

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #53)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 11:46 AM

58. Yeah,life isn't fair because everything is rigged...

has been since this countries inception.Money is what is worshipped in this country;always has.

Exploitation is what Amerika excels at so you can have all those choices when you go shopping.Civilized,LOL;we love our wars.
When we are young the owners of this country have us pledge allegiance to the flag and there the mind control begins.

Like I said;Amerika sucks

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Response to Phhhtttt (Reply #58)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 09:07 PM

68. So.... to cowardly to fight,

 

too lazy to leave, and unable to accept the circumstances.


You live in your own self-induced hell. Nothing anyone can do to save you from it.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #68)

Mon Jun 25, 2012, 11:44 AM

73. I have been on 8 marches for the occupy movement .

You are one arrogant SOB.You must be a doctor.You are typical for that profession.

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Response to Phhhtttt (Reply #73)

Mon Jun 25, 2012, 08:21 PM

74. The more you speak, the less credible you seem.

 


You hate the country and everything it stands for, you've given up hope, yet you march in Occupy....

Sure buddy.

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Response to judy (Original post)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 02:26 AM

39. Here we are! Describes us to a tee.

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Response to judy (Original post)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 07:29 AM

43. Point by point...

 

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Yup... not necessarily a bad thing.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Subjective. As someone who deals with these issues regularly, I can tell you that human rights are at the forefront of much of the policy I help put forward.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - Nope, America is neatly split on the majority of most "big" issues. Closest you saw was post 9/11 and it has quickly faded.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Not even close. Civilian leadership, extremely restrictive ROE, etc.. etc.. 3.8% of GDP for military, 38.9% on social programs as per wikipedia

5. Rampant Sexism - Sexism exists but isn't "rampant." I've seen it and this ain't it.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Subjective... unsure how to quantify this.

7. Obsession with National Security - How can we be obsessed with national security if most voters care about other issues, as indicated by recent polls. Right now it's the economy and I expect it to change again and again.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Some overlap but hardly intertwined

9. Corporate Power is Protected -Subjective but there are protections and restrictions.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Nope; just because it isn't the current dominant force doesn't mean it is suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - 1st amendment. I haven't seen reams stories of professors hauled to jail for an inflammatory editorial. Have you?

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Police power is discretionary in many circumstances but does have limits.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Probably got this one but so does every nation in the world. That is the nature of power.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Probably got this one too but I don't think anyone knows the scale and I'm confident it does happen on both sides of the aisle. Also found in virtually every nation in the world.

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Response to Cave_Johnson (Reply #43)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 08:11 AM

46. Nice attempt at the illusion of parity.

 

See it all the time when wingnuts are trying to dismiss some malfeasance by Republicans by finding some obscure yet vaguely similar instance from 'the other side'.


You see, if you get rid of everyone but Republicans/Conservatives and then reference this list, you'll see that on every point Republicans are at least an order of magnitude more invested in every single one of these. Your attempt to gloss over that is pretty transparent.


I was going to go over why and how it is that Republicans uphold every one of these examples to a 'T', but I just dawned on me what a waste of time that would be.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #46)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 03:55 PM

60. So your response is...

 

... that both sides do it but one does it worse?

Lovely...

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Response to Cave_Johnson (Reply #60)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 06:15 PM

62. Not even close.

 


Funny though, is that your best point of leverage here? If so, that's very sad.

Because it either means you really are trying for false parity, or that you actually believe 'both sides' are equally as bad.

So which is it?

And BTW, Welcome to DU. Try to be less transparent.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #62)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 06:44 PM

63. Thanks for the warm welcome...

 

My points were made in my original post.

I was merely trying to decipher your point, if there was one.

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Response to Cave_Johnson (Reply #63)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 08:47 PM

65. What is it about this point:

 

"You see, if you get rid of everyone but Republicans/Conservatives and then reference this list, you'll see that on every point Republicans are at least an order of magnitude more invested in every single one of these."

That you did not actually comprehend?


Seriously, using obliviousness as an excuse does not get you far. Simply pretending something isn't there does not remove it from the page in front of you. You know.... that whole reality thing that the wingnuts are so well known for abhorring?

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #65)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 08:53 PM

66. Yes, that must be it...

 

Thank God for you and your amazing ability to clarify...

Have a lovely evening...

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Response to Cave_Johnson (Reply #66)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 08:56 PM

67. That was called a "Question".

 


I suppose I shouldn't expect you to have the capacity to deal with such a daunting creature.

Good night.

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Response to Cave_Johnson (Reply #66)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 09:37 PM

69. So, you must PM me your insults.

 


How about being an adult and responding in-thread?

You want to know what my question was? It was 'what about my point did you miss?'. If the way I phrased it was confusing to you, I'll simplify: "Republicans/Conservatives can be found to engage in, pursue, or otherwise exemplify every single point on that list while Liberals cannot be accused of more than three of them."

Do you disagree?

(That's another one of those 'question' thingies, but this time I made it a nice simple 'yes or no' one. I'm kind like that. )

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Response to Cave_Johnson (Reply #66)

Wed Jun 13, 2012, 10:00 PM

72. Are you a member of a conservative website?

Reason I'm asking is that they seem to like to come here and 'teach' us things.

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Response to Cave_Johnson (Reply #43)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 08:59 AM

49. Well if it ain't a fait accompli then it doesn't exist then

There has been a definite erosion of our rights as citizens, and an ongoing attack on women's rights. And maybe you think the Supreme Court selecting Bush as President is all fun and games Democracy too. And corporations are people? No, nothing fishy about that is there?

As for being obsessed with National Security, well it's all in the eye of the beholder isn't it?







I could go on but since it isn't a fait accompli then you can continue to rationalize how it just isn't happening.

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Response to Cave_Johnson (Reply #43)


Response to Cave_Johnson (Reply #43)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 11:32 AM

56. Fraudulent elections, yes, we do know the scale.

We got Bush twice as a result of fraudulent elections. The second one can be argued against I suppose, but there is zero doubt about the first one.

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Response to judy (Original post)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 10:21 AM

52. It's Just A Scary Point In Time For The US.

Most everyone assumes that the US will go on forever, and as the big dog on the block. I'm not sure why, paradigms shift over time.

I just read a sobering article in the June American Prospect, "The Hunger Games" by Jeff Faux, and he cuts through the day to day shiny object news cycle to look at the state of the US, long view.

A few rich righties, including many very far righties, are running the show now with their mega bucks thanks to the "Citizen's United" ruling.

The DNC democrats are throwing the left wing some bones in the social arena while selling us down the river economically with their other hand. Look here, don't look there.

Poll after poll shows that the will of the people is not being done. Rules are different for the ultra wealthy, schools are under assault with under funding and religious zealot nutcakes taking over school boards to force right wing curriculum, such as the earth being 5,000 years old.

Things may get back somewhere near where they should be but it's no sure thing and even if we do swing back it will get worse, maybe much worse, before it gets better......it will take a lot to finally create a tipping point, where enough people finally start voting in their own best interest.

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Response to judy (Original post)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 11:35 AM

57. This old chestnut is only relevent when a repuke is president. n/t

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Response to judy (Original post)

Tue Jun 12, 2012, 11:07 AM

71. The tree of Liberty must be refreshed

 

You know the rest.

If present trends continue. And there is no reason to believe they won't, I believe a revolution will be necessary to reclaim our nation.

Better me than my kids.

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