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Bad Dog

(2,025 posts)
Thu May 26, 2016, 03:39 AM May 2016

US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks'

From the BBC.

The US nuclear weapons force still uses a 1970s-era computer system and floppy disks, a government report has revealed.

The Government Accountability Office said the Pentagon was one of several departments where "legacy systems" urgently needed to be replaced.

The report said taxpayers spent $61bn (£41bn) a year on maintaining ageing technologies.

It said that was three times more than the investment on modern IT systems.

The report said that the Department of Defence systems that co-ordinated intercontinental ballistic missiles, nuclear bombers and tanker support aircraft "runs on an IBM Series-1 Computer - a 1970s computing system - and uses eight-inch floppy disks".


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36385839
38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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US nuclear force 'still uses floppy disks' (Original Post) Bad Dog May 2016 OP
I wonder what they're paying for blank disks. n/t PoliticAverse May 2016 #1
I bet they've been doing a lot of bidding on ebay. Bad Dog May 2016 #6
Honestly, on some level it probably makes it harder to hack. Warren DeMontague May 2016 #2
That was my thought. moriah May 2016 #3
What about response time? Bad Dog May 2016 #7
I pretend to be an expert on a whole bunch of things, but I'm really not. Warren DeMontague May 2016 #8
It's due to be updated by the end of next year. Bad Dog May 2016 #9
Punch Cards, then. My old man worked with one of those, back in the day. Warren DeMontague May 2016 #11
If you really want to turn back time. Bad Dog May 2016 #14
The point of subs and to a lesser extent bombers is they don't need to have a quick response MillennialDem May 2016 #30
They still need the President's say so. Bad Dog May 2016 #33
Not really the point. The president (or a military officer) can make a mistake with ICBMs. Technical MillennialDem May 2016 #34
Your captains can't attack without permission. Bad Dog May 2016 #35
but people who know how to operate them are nearing retirement pstokely May 2016 #23
TO MAKES IT A LOT HARDER FOR ENEMIES TO READ HACK OR COMPROMISE! Jeffersons Ghost May 2016 #29
Maybe we should use human storage ala Farenheit 451 Mechanical/electronic doesn't last very long Monk06 May 2016 #4
Or the oral tradition of the Native American. Bad Dog May 2016 #5
Which is what Ray Bradbury advocated in F451 Every person is a book Monk06 May 2016 #10
I know, I've read the book. Bad Dog May 2016 #12
In the end oral memory binds us to species which we previously thought of as being non sentient, Monk06 May 2016 #15
So much is subject to chance. Bad Dog May 2016 #16
Per Wikipedia the Muslims destroyed anything that contradicted the Koran Jesus Malverde May 2016 #21
Like all Muslims are one big homegenous bloc. Bad Dog May 2016 #22
Crater Lake, here in Oregon- what once was "Mount Mazama" Warren DeMontague May 2016 #13
I'd imagine the certification process for any system takes so long Recursion May 2016 #17
Infrastructure quite often goes by its use by date. Bad Dog May 2016 #18
The eternal cry of the sysadmin Recursion May 2016 #19
I'm not surprised spinbaby May 2016 #20
The largest budget in the world and they've never upgraded. Where is the goddamned money going? ChisolmTrailDem May 2016 #24
Wars are expensive. Bad Dog May 2016 #25
One more reason to dismantle the entire fucking thing. arcane1 May 2016 #26
Thumb Drives are Banned anyway One_Life_To_Give May 2016 #27
I keep all my nuclear secrets on low density single sided Macintosh floppies. hunter May 2016 #28
I gave mine away. I still regret it. kairos12 May 2016 #37
Of course they are not telling you why nadinbrzezinski May 2016 #31
Well, that may be a good thing maxrandb May 2016 #32
Works with tRump not knowing what the nuclear triad is. kairos12 May 2016 #36
That puts it in the same category as the clitoris. Bad Dog May 2016 #38

Bad Dog

(2,025 posts)
7. What about response time?
Thu May 26, 2016, 05:06 AM
May 2016

Isn't that the whole thing about MAD? Doesn't quite work if one side can steal a march on the other.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
8. I pretend to be an expert on a whole bunch of things, but I'm really not.
Thu May 26, 2016, 05:14 AM
May 2016


Still, as far as I understand it the logic underpinning cold war deterrence for some 50 years or so has rested upon the so-called "Nuclear Triad"; basically, land-based ICBMs or other missiles, Strategic Bombers, and Nuclear-equipped Subs.

The point being, that in the event of an attack- the subs are always out at sea, at least during some parts of the cold war the bombers were always in the air; and the missiles are in hardened silos. Mutual Assured Destruction was predicated on the idea that a surprise attack could never entirely wipe out the other side's nuclear capability. So response time isn't really the main factor. What counts is that the ability to hit back would remain.

Again, as far as I understand it.

Note I'm not suggesting it wouldn't be a good idea to upgrade those outdated systems, if for no other reason than (as people have noted) floppy disks have gotta be pretty hard to find at this point.

Bad Dog

(2,025 posts)
9. It's due to be updated by the end of next year.
Thu May 26, 2016, 05:26 AM
May 2016

Apparently the Treasury is just as bad, using computer systems developed in the 1950s.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
11. Punch Cards, then. My old man worked with one of those, back in the day.
Thu May 26, 2016, 05:27 AM
May 2016

Boy, that's gotta be a fucking sight.

Bad Dog

(2,025 posts)
14. If you really want to turn back time.
Thu May 26, 2016, 05:33 AM
May 2016

Use vellum.

After a reprieve, the UK is to continue printing and storing its laws on vellum, made from calf or goat-skin. But shouldn't these traditions give way to digital storage, asks Chris Stokel-Walker.

Last week the House of Lords decided to end the printing of laws on vellum for cost reasons. But now the Cabinet Office is to provide the money from its own budget for the thousand-year-old tradition to continue.

Vellum lasts a long time. Dig into the archives of the UK's parliament and pull out the oldest extant law and you'll find a very old document. It was first inscribed in 1497.

Over time, ordinary paper can deteriorate rapidly, while vellum is said to retain its integrity for much longer. Original copies of the Magna Carta, signed more than 800 years ago on vellum, still exist.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35569281
 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
30. The point of subs and to a lesser extent bombers is they don't need to have a quick response
Thu May 26, 2016, 02:32 PM
May 2016

time.

The missiles in hardened silos are the dangerous part since they are quite likely to get destroyed or heavily damaged in the event of an attack so they operate on a launch on warning system. Since it only takes about 30 minutes for an ICBM to get from here to Russia (or vice versa) we would get less than 30 minutes warning and the president has to decide whether to launch or not and once launched they cannot be recalled. There have been some close calls with things like satellite launches and meteor showers that have caused near launches. I'm of the opinion that ICBMs are a horrible, outdated idea and leave us at major risk of an accidental launch. They are the cheapest part of the triad, though... but we should definitely get rid of them and stick with subs and bombers.

A sub or bomber can be told to linger and "launch in x hours if you have not heard from us"

 

MillennialDem

(2,367 posts)
34. Not really the point. The president (or a military officer) can make a mistake with ICBMs. Technical
Fri May 27, 2016, 09:20 AM
May 2016

ly a mistake could be made on a sub or a bomber as well, but it's much less likely.

Bad Dog

(2,025 posts)
35. Your captains can't attack without permission.
Fri May 27, 2016, 10:28 AM
May 2016

Ours can go rogue any time they want. I'm not saying it's a good thing. Apparently the protocol is being unable to pick up the BBC World Service for three days in a row. Then they can nuke whoever they want. Let's hope there's not a strike at the BBC.

Bad Dog

(2,025 posts)
5. Or the oral tradition of the Native American.
Thu May 26, 2016, 05:02 AM
May 2016

Systems become obsolete all the time. And it's not just the American military that's fallen foul.

It was meant to be a showcase for Britain's electronic prowess - a computer-based, multimedia version of the Domesday Book. But 16 years after it was created, the £2.5 million BBC Domesday Project has achieved an unexpected and unwelcome status: it is now unreadable.
The special computers developed to play the 12in video discs of text, photographs, maps and archive footage of British life are - quite simply - obsolete.


http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/mar/03/research.elearning

Monk06

(7,675 posts)
10. Which is what Ray Bradbury advocated in F451 Every person is a book
Thu May 26, 2016, 05:26 AM
May 2016

We have the Dream Time from the Australian Aboriginals

Perhaps the first flood epic to survive and be completely orally transmitted

Bad Dog

(2,025 posts)
12. I know, I've read the book.
Thu May 26, 2016, 05:29 AM
May 2016

And seen the film, at the end there's a nod to Bradbury as one of the books being committed to memory is The Martian Chronicles.

Monk06

(7,675 posts)
15. In the end oral memory binds us to species which we previously thought of as being non sentient,
Thu May 26, 2016, 05:52 AM
May 2016

Whales, Dolphins, Elephants not to mention primates such as Orangutans, who ancient Sumatrans considered to be another, albeit, tree dwelling species of humans like themselves

They called them the People of the Trees and accorded them equal respect

History is recorded orally or by imitation and modern electronic recording will be dug up by future
archaeologists as just inert deposits of synthetic materials All the memory they contained lost

If you want someone to remember your past do like the Egyptians, carve it in stone and let the sands bury and protect it

Bad Dog

(2,025 posts)
16. So much is subject to chance.
Thu May 26, 2016, 06:05 AM
May 2016

If the Rosetta stone had not been unearthed we would still be at a loss about a lot of ancient Egypt. If the Muslims hadn't secured the library at Alexandria we would know nothing of Greek philosophy.

There's still so much we don't know about the people who built Stonehenge.

Jesus Malverde

(10,274 posts)
21. Per Wikipedia the Muslims destroyed anything that contradicted the Koran
Thu May 26, 2016, 06:45 AM
May 2016

Do you have a cite that captures this otherwise?

Bad Dog

(2,025 posts)
22. Like all Muslims are one big homegenous bloc.
Thu May 26, 2016, 06:58 AM
May 2016

They're as different and diverse as any other group. Try to avoid thinking that relies on over generalisation and stereotyping. This is also from Wikipedia, and I've actually given a link. (So much better than vague references that pander to America's Islamophobia, don't you think?)

Arab logicians had inherited Greek ideas after they had invaded and conquered Egypt and the Levant. Their translations and commentaries on these ideas worked their way through the Arab West into Spain and Sicily, which became important centers for this transmission of ideas.

The first period of transmission during 8th and 9th centuries was preceded by a period of conquest, as Arabs took control of previously Hellenized areas such as Egypt and Syria in the 7th century. At this point they first began to encounter Greek ideas, though from the beginning, many Arabs were hostile to classical learning. Because of this hostility, the religious Caliphs could not support scientific translations. Translators had to seek out wealthy business patrons rather than religious ones. Until Abassid rule in the 8th century, however, there was little work in translation. Most knowledge of Greek during Umayyad rule was gained from those scholars of Greek who remained from the Byzantine period, rather than through widespread translation and dissemination of texts. A few scholars argue that translation was more widespread than is thought during this period, but theirs remains the minority view.

Abbasids

The main period of translation was during Abbasid rule. The 2nd Abassid Caliph Al-Mansur moved the capital from Damascus to Baghdad. Here he founded the great library with texts containing Greek Classical texts. Al-Mansur ordered this rich fund of world literature translated into Arabic. Under al-Mansur and by his orders, translations were made from Greek, Syriac, and Persian, the Syriac and Persian books being themselves translations from Greek or Sanskrit.

Owing to the legacy of the 6th century King of Persia, Anushirvan (Chosroes I) the Just had introducing many Greek ideas into his kingdom. Aided by this knowledge and juxtaposition of beliefs, the Abassids considered it valuable to look at Islam with Greek eyes, and to look at the Greeks with Islamic eyes. Abassid philosophers also pressed the idea that Islam had from the very beginning stressed the gathering of knowledge as important to the religion. These new lines of thought allowed the work of amassing and translating Greek ideas to expand as it never before had.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_the_Greek_Classics

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
13. Crater Lake, here in Oregon- what once was "Mount Mazama"
Thu May 26, 2016, 05:29 AM
May 2016

fascinating bit of information, the local native American tribes have an oral history of the eruption event. Which took place about 9,000 years ago.

Amazing stuff.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
17. I'd imagine the certification process for any system takes so long
Thu May 26, 2016, 06:23 AM
May 2016

that more modern storage methods couldn't have passed it yet.

Bad Dog

(2,025 posts)
18. Infrastructure quite often goes by its use by date.
Thu May 26, 2016, 06:26 AM
May 2016

And digital infrastructure is no different. If there's budgetary considerations it can be quite tempting to opt for "That'll do for now."

spinbaby

(15,073 posts)
20. I'm not surprised
Thu May 26, 2016, 06:29 AM
May 2016

I worked for the last company to stock parts for Token Ring networks. We sold the stuff mainly to the government and Sears.

 

ChisolmTrailDem

(9,463 posts)
24. The largest budget in the world and they've never upgraded. Where is the goddamned money going?
Thu May 26, 2016, 12:00 PM
May 2016

Probably the same place the money Rummy said was missing on 9/10/01 (something like $9 Trillion) went.

One_Life_To_Give

(6,036 posts)
27. Thumb Drives are Banned anyway
Thu May 26, 2016, 01:36 PM
May 2016

The 8in floppy can't be hidden in a pocket the way a thumb drive might.

I imagine the replacement system would take 2-3 years to write and get approval on the specification and another 5 yrs to fully deploy the 2016 Hardened Mil-Spec Technology. Such that in 2024 you could have a 2016 Mil Spec system that performs about like a 2012 performance system.

maxrandb

(15,187 posts)
32. Well, that may be a good thing
Thu May 26, 2016, 02:52 PM
May 2016

I would imagine that there is no one alive today that would be able to "hack" it!

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