It's not facism, it is a plutocracy

[MadHound]

We live in a plutocracy, that is a fact, and it has been that way, more or less, for the past one hundred and forty years. Yes, we've had some breaks, most notably during the FDR years, and the amount of control by the wealthy has varied with time. There have been politicians, political movements that have bucked that trend, and at times, the control of our country has even been gentle, beneficial even. But nevertheless, we live in a country that is controlled by the wealthy few.

Both parties have been instruments of the plutocrats, and continue to be so. The Democrats have, at least most of the time, exhibited something resembling a conscience and have tried to spread at least a few crumbs around. But still and all, the Dems have done the bidding of our wealthy overlords.

So what can be done about this? I think that the only peaceable action that could forestall the march of the plutocrats is to institute publicly funded election campaigns, from dogcatcher through president. I also think that we need to reign in lobbying in a major way.

But neither of those is going to be adapted, not in a government run for the wealthy. Thus that leaves us the other option, all out violent revolt. I hate to say that, but it is a historical fact, remove the middle class, polarize the population into a small group that has everything and a large group that has nothing, and voila! the French revolution, or some very violent alternative.

This is our reality, this is what we're up against. We live in a plutocracy, and we need to get our country back.

[HiPointDem]

1. they're not mutually exclusive.

[MadHound]

3. Actually it is

Classic fascism is where corporations are put to work for the state. A plutocracy is government by the wealthy few, usually manipulating the government directly or indirectly through agencies such as corporations.

[HiPointDem]

5. There's no such line dividing "corporations" from "the state" as if they were different parties &

one set of people were in charge of one and another of the other, with state people being master in one and corporation people being master in the other.

Corporations empowered the fascists. The fascists helped the corps make profits & cut down some of their competition (jewish businesses and mid-sized businesses).

[MadHound]

7. Umm, no, not in classic fascism

Please, go back and study your political science, I have. Yes, there is a marriage of corporate and state under fascism, but under classic fascism, it is the state that has the whip hand and controls the corporations.

[HiPointDem]

8. You're talking theory. I'm talking history & actual practice. Telling someone they need more

education isn't an argument. Classical fascism = mussolini, funded & installed by corporate power, as was hitler.

[MadHound]

11. No, I'm talking history,

I suggest that you go study it. Not trying to be rude, but this area is one of my specialties, that I've written on and published. Corporations didn't control Hitler, nor Mussolini, but rather the reverse.

[HiPointDem]

12. If you're so well-studied, why don't you present an actual argument, rather than just insisting

what you claim is so, is, by virtue of your superior education?

[MadHound]

19. What, you want me to quote chapter and verse?

Tell you what, from the horse's mouth. Alfredo Rocco, Mussolini's Minister of Justice and principle architect of fascism, outlined the details of what fascism is in an article published in October 1926 called International Conciliation. The article is derived from a speech of his, and is entitled The Political Doctrine of Fascism. There are about three copies left in this country, go find one and educate yourself. If you can't find that, then this will give you a small taste(check out point 16).

What is your claim to being correct, other than your own opinion? Have you done any real study in this area? Have you done any research, writing, or publishing? Or are you simply another keyboard commando, entrenched in your own opinion, faulty or otherwise.

[HiPointDem]

22. that's an argument in the sense that the national socialists claimed to be socialist and

george bush claimed his war was for democracy.

I said, I'm talking *history* & actual *practice,* not position statements.

The state is always an instrument of class power. Business/the wealthy put Mussolini and Hitler into power, and in turn they did their benefactors' bidding. Number one on the agenda was getting rid of communists & labor organizers.

again, you ask me what my credentials are. credentials don't make a bad argument better, & lack of them doesn't invalidate a good one.

capital put both mussolini & hitler into power. both attempted to suppress & destroy the economic enemies & competition of the power that installed them.

[JackRiddler]

35. You are rude and you are arguing from claimed authority...

though I can't say you've shown evidence for it other than "I've read a lot! Really!"

[Scootaloo]

10. The problem is that you're leaning heavily on "classic" there

Political ideologies are not immutable monoliths. They can change a LOT in decades. Pretending that Mussolini is still the defining face of Fascism is like pretending Marx still defines socialism. Handy for people who's sole knowledge comes from PoliSci 101 and who intend to use it for nothing other than sounding smart at a bar crawl, but deeply flawed for any real-world application.

Corporate structure is, in and of itself fascist. It doesn't matter who "weilds the whip" in the relationship.

[MadHound]

13. Yeah, but the thing is, words mean things

And trying to define something using an inaccurate term is worse than useless, but actually destructive.

Thanks for the backhanded insults, I know quite a bit more about this than Poli Sci 101, and I've done a bit more in the field than sound smart at a bar crawl.

And if you're actually stating that corporate structure is fascist, then you just demonstrated that you know nothing about fascism, other than the little buzz stuff you get on the internet.

[Scootaloo]

18. Yes they do

My point is just that as theories progress, develop, expand, contract, and see testing, how they are defined can change.

Understand that political ideologies grow and mutate. Fascism has not been locked in a freezer for the last eighty-one years. It, like all other extant political ideologies, has grown and mutated and changed since its inception and original definition. If you're going to stick by "classic" fascism, then we might as well stick by "classic" leftism as well - everyone sitting on the left side of the chambers of Congress is a leftist!

[BOG PERSON]

16. agreed

actual fascism had a definite streak of anti-bourgeois, anti-liberal (specifically anti-finance) sentiment. i bet it would be very popular w/ some of the more freethinking anticommunists in america.

[ManyShadesOf]

26. whose whipping who

when the corporations are running the state, by of and for the corporations? calling them "persons"? you really are about splitting hairs about FASCIA the "bundling of sticks" into one fascist state?

[Lns.Lns]

17. I agree... it is a very broad topic

In my way of thinking, just having another FDR (which requires a complete collapse for a while for someone to get the massive support from the populace to make big changes) won't fix the problem. Good, strong, SMART regulation is the only way to avert economic crashes. The problem with Dems is that we have a tendency to over regulate which gives Reps the fodder to deregulate.

Having been raised a low information conservative, I can tell you that they have one thing in common with liberals. They think the government is bought and paid for. Therefore, the one thing we have a shot at, is getting money out of politics. More and more cities and states are beginning to address this. There are a number of organizations with this central theme. I dare say, by the end of this election and the consequences of Citizen's United, many will be sick of the ads and propaganda. Unfortunately, low information people will be swayed by out and out lies. Money out of politics as a constitutional amendment is the only long term solution to the problem, much like the 17th solved the majority of corruption of state Senator designations.

IMHO that will do the most to get corruption out of politics... reign in those Plutocrats, Oligarchs, or whatever multitude of labels that apply and avert the potential of fascism which seems more likely if things continue to go unchecked. Laws are a lot easier to overturn than the Constitution.

The biggest hurdle I can see, is reaching the vast majority of people who pay no attention to this stuff. For the life of me, I don't understand why we are relying only on those that are engaged enough to know there is such a push for reform. A simple post card to the populace at large...

Are you tired of your politicians being bought? Please sign our non partisan petition making it illegal for politicians to take money from anyone for any reason... It costs nothing to sign... Then some web address.

It doesn't have to be those exact words of course, just a card with bold type, easy to read, understand, and not too many words.

[HiPointDem]

20. agree. getting people to focus on questions of power & money, rather than the 101 distractions

they're encouraged to focus on with the daily propaganda release.

[Lns.Lns]

23. Double agreed.

Focusing on solutions is the only way I see to avoid the the really devastating crash that is almost inevitable if things don't change.

[1-Old-Man]

32. I agree, and while the OP makes a good argument for plutocracy it makes no argument against fascism

When the plutocracy exercises its power through its corporate arms or the sole purpose of its control is to enhance its corporative personage then where does the difference lie between plutocracy and fascism?

[librechik]

2. yup. we're missing the rampant militarism and the deadly force nationalism

When the president starts wearing a uniform most of the time, and we all have to sign loyalty oaths, fascism is here. We have some of that, but mostly not. Plutocracy or klepticaracy is more correct.

[MadHound]

4. Umm, militarism and nationalism are not the signature hallmarks of fascism

The key difference between fascism and plutocracy is that under fascism, corporations become instruments of the state. Under a plutocracy, corporations are instruments used to manipulate the state by the wealthy few.

Militarism and nationalism can be common in both forms of rule. Look around, with one large war just wrapped up, one under way, and several small wars brewing, can you honestly say that this is not a militarist country? Look around at all the flag waving, listen to the chants of "USA, USA", can you honestly say that we aren't nationalistic?

[sudopod]

15. Ever see anyone in a position of power who was not presented while wearing a power suit + tie?

Not all uniforms have brass and braids.

[librechik]

28. good point n/t

[Egalitarian Thug]

6. K&R for the sentiment, but quibbling over semantics doesn't accomplish much.

What we have has elements of all the aforementioned forms of authoritarianism with a few new twists and I'm sure a new term will eventually be coined. But in the end it's almost entirely the same people from the same families that dictate.

[HiPointDem]

9. +1.

[arthritisR_US]

24. +2

[spanone]

14. it's REPUBLICANS.

[ananda]

21. No, it's both.

Plutocratic and fascist.

[ManyShadesOf]

25. facism

[UnrepentantLiberal]

30. What does this mean?

[ManyShadesOf]

34. it means a man

is missing his eyeballs

[lunatica]

27. I don't see how it could work. Should we all attack Washington, DC, or just

each of our state Capitols? Or should we attack Wall Street, or just our local Financial Centers usually located in the middle of downtown?

And if we storm the Congress and the White House will that end the plutocracy? What exactly do you think anyone, even if we're all in it together can do to actually make a revolutionary difference?

Even if the citizens of one state were to be successful, how does that defeat the plutocracy? How does that stop the Federal Government from sending in the National Guard of other states? Or armed forces? Or just the riot control police with their arsenals. Who is going to fight against hired mercenaries like Blackwater, hired by corporations if not the government.

This country is too big to invade and it's too big to have a violent revolution that would succeed on a National level. It's probably too big to even have a single state taken over by the people. And if for some miracle of good coincidences a group of people take over one state who stops the big business from just withdrawing from that state taking all the jobs with them and who will bring needed food and medical supplies into the state? Any successful revolution could just be cut off and walled in.

It goes on and on. Eventually the government would use all the weapons it now chooses to use on other countries. Drones, air strikes, bombs, black ops, you name it.

I'm 63 years old. Can you really tell me I'm fit enough to stand up to the local police in their full riot gear and armored trucks or the National Guard?

And when was there any time in our history when violent rioting or revolution against our government worked directly? When was a Governor of any state 'deposed'?

[TBF]

29. FYI --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240105629

Just thought you should know when someone is doing this.

[deaniac21]

31. After having their planet status revoked

they are really getting out of hand!

[1-Old-Man]

33. Could this be a test?

How do you know if you have a plutocracy or if you have fascism? It seems to me that if you have fascism the whole system collapses more or less immediately in the face of a general strike. Corporations may enjoy a short shell life when the people walk out but the shell won't stand for long. Plutocracy is another beast. If all the workers and all the clients go home the Plutocracy still stands. Wealth and control are undiminished.

There are two weapons that protect the people from fascism and plutocracy, they are Unions and Inheritance Taxes. When you have those two institutions, and when they are strong, then society is protected.