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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHer Father Shot Her in the Head, as an ‘Honor Killing’
Whether it wins or not, the Oscar nominee with the greatest impact — saving lives of perhaps thousands of girls — may be one you’ve never heard of.
It stars not Leonardo DiCaprio but a real-life 19-year-old Pakistani woman named Saba Qaiser. Her odyssey began when she fell in love against her family’s wishes and ran off to marry her boyfriend. Hours after the marriage, her father and uncle sweet-talked her into their car and took her to a spot along a riverbank to murder her for her defiance — an “honor killing.”
First they beat Saba, then her uncle held her as her own father pointed a pistol at her head and pulled the trigger. Blood spewed, Saba collapsed and her father and uncle packed her body into a large sack and threw it into the river to sink. They then drove away, thinking they had restored the family’s good name.
Incredibly, Saba was unconscious but alive. She had jerked her head as the gun went off, and the bullet tore through the left side of her face but didn’t kill her. The river water revived her, and she clawed her way out of the sack and crawled onto land. She staggered toward a gasoline station, and someone called for help.
About every 90 minutes, an honor killing unfolds somewhere in the world, usually in a Muslim country. Pakistan alone has more than 1,000 a year, and the killers often go unpunished.
Watching the documentary about Saba, “A Girl in the River: The Price of Forgiveness,” I kept thinking that just as in the 19th century the central moral challenge for the world was slavery, and in the 20th century it was totalitarianism, in this century the foremost moral issue is the abuse and oppression that is the lot of so many women and girls around the world.
https://richarddawkins.net/2016/02/her-father-shot-her-in-the-head-as-an-honor-killing/
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As a father to daughters, I can't imagine hurting my own girls because a religion tells me to.
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Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)
retrowire
(10,345 posts)TipTok
(2,474 posts)retrowire
(10,345 posts)
Squinch
(50,933 posts)
LeftishBrit
(41,205 posts)It's more a cultural than religious issue. It is still common in many places to consider children, especially girls, as the property of their parents and families, rather than having human rights of their own.
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)in most places culture and religion are so intimately intertwined that it's often impossible to say where one ends and the other begins. So to say it's cultural does not grant religion immunity to culpability.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Because everyone knows liberals support honor killings. That's the reason they call you a bigot 
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)A. women be safe from a culture that instills norms of sexual assault and murder or
B. "OMG TEH RW!"
Women's safety first. If you can't see that feel free to walk away; we don't need you.
kcr
(15,315 posts)Because it has nothing to do with what I said in any way whatsoever.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It is only bigoted if you are also claiming all Muslims everywhere have this mindset.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)then no, you most certainly aren't a bigot.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"I can't imagine hurting my own girls because a religion tells me to..."
I hear ya... I can't imagine hurting a stranger because an imaginary red and blue line tells me to.
byronius
(7,392 posts)And carefully focused and used by many religions and ideologies to cement their holds on human minds.
I'll bet this lucky young woman doesn't return to embracing the creed that maimed her.
ErikJ
(6,335 posts)Fundy rapture Dominionism Chritianity is more dangerous than fundy Islam in may ways as they believe Climate Change will bring the apaocalypse sooner to save them. So they keep the climate change denying GOP in office which fight doing anything about it.
Fundy Muslims believe in End TImes savior too. Motivating them to trigger a nuclear confrontation and shit like honor killings.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)7 fucking posts before someone has to try the magical balance fairy bullshit. Nothing to say about what happened to this poor girl? Nothing about the society that forced her to allow this dirtbag out of prison? No - just bullshit about how Christians are just as bad. 7 fucking posts.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)The other only does it every now and then...
Whoopity doo for them.... 
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)your point is. But if it's more deflection from this poor girl's story, I'm not interested.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)In ONE YEAR, there were 1,000 "honor" killings in ONE country - Pakistan.
How long does it take at the current pace to equal 1,000 murders at anti-abortion clinics?
At least eleven murders occurred in the United States since 1990, as well as 41 bombings and 173 arsons at clinics since 1977. At least one murder occurred in Australia, as well several attempted murders in Canada. There were 1,793 abortion providers in the United States in 2008, as well as 197 abortion providers in Canada in 2001. The National Abortion Federation reported between 1,356 and 13,415 incidents of picketing at United States providers each year from 1995 to 2014.
It is ALL wrong, but violence, while present in modern Christianity, is EXTREMELY rare in comparison to the violence in Islamic countries.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)You are arguing that one group murders innocents in the name of their god at a significantly lower rate than another.
Awesome... *twirls finger in the air*
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)deflection and magical balance fairy bullshit. Especially bullshit concerning this story where this animal was let go due to community pressure on the victim. Eric Rudolf is in a superman prison for the rest of his miserable life Scott Roeder is serving 50 years for killing Dr. Tiller. In this country we do our best to try and convict those who commit crimes. We don't shame the victim into forgiving them so they can be let go expressing pride in their actions.
So just fucking stop it already. There is no comparison.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... to gain enough proof to actually prosecute in a secular system where he didn't have the protection of his religious followers?
As for Rudolf and Tiller and all the rest, the prime motivation for their murder and terrorism was their fervent belief in god.
The only reason they were prosecuted is because we have a secular criminal justice system that doesn't allow religious mumbo jumbo as an excuse for violence and murder.
If there were more folks like them in charge of the system, they would have gotten off just like the nutters in Pakistan.
I wouldn't be so quick to hop on that high horse. The more people that believe in their own little deity, the more likely atrocities like the OP are to happen and remain unpunished.
Religion obviously isn't the only reason that folks murder but it is the reason that these folks did and if it wasn't there they wouldn't have.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)That's all I keep hearing from people - IF we didn't live in a secular society, IF more whacko Christians were in positions of power. NONE OF THOSE THINGS ARE HAPPENING HERE. Saying if, if, if just shows how desperate you are to MINIMIZE what is happening all over the world to girls and women in Muslim countries. You still haven't expressed one thought on what happened to THIS girl - just trying to MINIMIZE it by making comparisons that are not at all comparable. Perhaps you have a problem claiming one culture is superior to another - I have no such problem. In the VAST majority of cases, Muslim societies SUCK for women.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)We can talk about the regressed culture and religion that influenced this particular case and resulted in this specific girl getting shot...
AND...
We can talk about the historical facts of what has happened under theocratic regimes and infer what would happen if the west was unfortunate enough to fall under such a thing.
You don't have to tell me that Muslim societies suck for women. I've been nose to nose. I can also tell you that a society dominated by Christian theology isn't that great either. Women aren't that high on the totem poll there either.
For a modern example, check out the FLDS and for a historical example give a glance to the entire history of the Vatican. There are other examples.
Christian theocracies aren't a hypothetical. They have happened and were nasty places to live, especially for women.
I am absolutely comfortable saying that Western society is superior to the regressed Islamic societies but that is despite our Christian influences and not because of it.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)is try to MINIMIZE what's happening to women like this one by spouting some bullshit about IF, IF, IF. And now you're reduced to going back in history instead of focusing on what's going on TODAY to try and make a point. It's pathetic and has nothing at all to do with walking and chewing gum. You're just deflecting and proving Bill Maher right with every single post.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)They are both awful but one is less awful than the other...
Congratulations...
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)extremely foolish in this exchange. You were caught LYING about what I said when it was CLEARLY something YOU said in post 184. And now you're trying to change the subject AGAIN. Since I'm sure anyone reading this exchange can see what you did - and the flailing around trying to deflect from it, I'm done with you.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)In addition to proving that your avatar is incredibly appropriate.
False accusations, deflections, claims of victimhood and gish galloping until you finally run out of steam...
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Which one of us called people UNINFORMED? That was you in post 184 but then you have the balls to LIE and say I said it when it's right there in black and white. All this conversation has done is prove Bill Maher right. Are you ever going to expend one ounce of sympathy for what the girl in the OP went through or are you going to continue to LIE about me and deflect onto another topic? Yes, this conversation has shed a lot of light. All of it about you.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)How can there be a 184? Are you referencing another thread without any context? I ask only because you've put it out there a few times but don't have any context or a link.
Seems there's a bit of steam left after all. Good for you...
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)FFS, I am so sick of hearing the usual shit.
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)After all, look who they support for president.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)that poster LYING about me because of who I support for President? That's pretty fucking pathetic. The FACTS are this women almost became another victim of honor killings - 1000 of which occur in Pakistan EVERY FUCKING YEAR. But go ahead and deflect and minimize what life is for women in Muslim countries. It really does tell everyone all they needs to about you.
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)Why don't you chill out for a bit? It would do you lots of good.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)my concern for my sister's in Muslim countries makes you feel icky. That's entirely your problem, not mine.
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)sheesh. Even simple grammar rules are too tough.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)How special. What else would you like to deflect from the treatment of women in Muslim countries with? Thanks ever so much for proving my point over and over and over again.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... and disgust for the father and community that has protected him.
Why make stuff up when there are valid points that you could make? If you need help, I can point you in the right direction and we can try again.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)you expressed ANY sympathy for this girl. You hadn't as of this morning. All you did was immediately try and deflect to the actions of Christians.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... before you can continue with a conversation?
The rest of us already know that and it is implied throughout this thread.
All the talk about how depraved and awful the man, his community and his culture are wasn't enough for you?
That must be a tough way to go through life...
Ok... Here you go... Shooting innocents, especially little girls, is bad.
Are you ready to contribute now?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Your obsession with minimizing and downplaying this story and the treatment of women in Muslim countries by your constant deflections? I'm sorry it pained you so much to talk about either one...pained you so much that you couldn't bother showing one ounce of compassion for this girl before trotting out the magical balance fairy? What exactly am I supposed to be contributing to?
TipTok
(2,474 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)TipTok
(2,474 posts)... is bad.
Is there some nuance there that you think needs further elucidation?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)a crime is nothing but bullshit. This crime was done in the name of a religion - the story is about a culture and a community that allows men to beat and kill women in the name of "honor". In this case, and in far too many other cases, the men get away with it because of the culture it's happening in. I would think that would be enough of a topic of conversation without the bullshit deflections onto the behavior of Christians. I sure don't see anyone bringing up the behavior of Muslims when the OP is about the latest transgressions of Christians. Why is that?
Perhaps that's what needs to be done the next time a story about Christians comes up - I'll immediately change the subject and deflect onto the latest atrocity (I'm sure I'll find something that occurred that same week) done by Muslims against their women. Let's see how that goes and if that shows you what complete bullshit your deflections are.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... While discussing a larger issue (religion) as long as as the primary topic (influence of islam) is a logical subset of that.
Why exactly do you get to dictate where the line is drawn?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I merely forced you to explain why you felt the need to deflect from the horrors of this story to talk about something thoroughly unrelated AND I pointed out this only happens with stories about Muslims. That nobody would ever try to deflect to the behavior of Muslims when the original story is about Christians. I was pointing out hypocrisy and that obviously got you upset.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)Are you suggesting that no one got upset about that Christian family who beat their son to death a month or so back? Or that they didn't talk about the ills of religion at large?
Are you really sure?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I said when the story is about Christians, nobody would immediately deflect the thread in order to talk about the behavior of Muslims. They stick to that story and don't feel the need to bring other religions into it. Don't put words in my mouth.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)I suspect you are getting tripped up with the concept of smaller and more specific topics being included in broader and more general ones but still fitting together in a logical way.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I was perfectly clear the first time. You just don't like being called out on your hypocrisy and are looking for a way to weasel out of it by accusing me of something I never said.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)I would be, and have been, just as quick to point out the negative effect religion has on people after they committed an atrocity in the name of their specific deity (whichever one it may be).
clarice
(5,504 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Just sick and tired of the same bullshit day in and day out. It's like they're getting paid to prove Bill Maher was right.
clarice
(5,504 posts)but I STILL can't figure out why so many Liberals will LEAP to the defense of a culture that..
1. Abuses and defiles their Women
2. Kills and defames Homosexuals
3. Think nothing of blowing up innocent people
I realize the not ALL Muslims.......... But it sure seems to happen a lot
What I found most egregious, is when I would post a story like this in the Feminist lounge..
you could hear crickets chirping. Either that, or immediately it would be.." But the Israelis... But the Christians"
Do you have any idea why?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Liberals have a very long history of defending the underdog - that's what they think they're doing because of the US government's behavior in the middle east. I understand the sentiment but will not and can not stand by and watch this happening every single day to women across Muslim societies without speaking out. That people who self identify as feminists have nothing to say about this is disappointing. No - it's not all Muslims. American Muslims have done a great job of assimilating and I don't see roving bands of rapists taunting our police and attacking our women because they wont get away with that here. Europe has a very serious problem and it's only going to get worse unless people stop caring more about being politically correct than about their own citizens, particularly women.
clarice
(5,504 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)
Thank you Clarice!clarice
(5,504 posts)ErikJ
(6,335 posts)Theyre both terrible for humanity. Both working as hard as possible to end the world.
The honor killing I said was very bad. And we need a LOT more liberals to shame the God fundies for it.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)of scorn and disgust when a Christian does something evil in the name of G-d. But Bill Maher was absolutely right about liberals and Islam. It's repulsive.
840high
(17,196 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)name of "family honor" or for any reason, for that matter. What the hell is wrong with muslims that they will murder their own flesh and blood because of their frail, fucking egos?! They willing send their children off to martyr themselves as suicide bombers as well. They hate the infidel more than they love their own children. It's disgusting.
ErikJ
(6,335 posts)but we're too PC for our own good.
But fundy Christians are hoping for the apoacalypse by Climate Change dooming their own children to human extinction which I think is worse.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)It's nauseating, but real.
No matter that it's incomprehensible to us - we have to deal with the fact that this culture exists. It's not rare, and it's not fringe.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)Surely you realize that murderous zealotry occurs in all religions? It may be more acceptable in other cultures but it happens in the US often, as much as you probably wish it did not.
Here are a few Christians who killed their kids recently:
This little girl was tortured to death for Jesus:
http://sparethekids.com/2011/08/christian-couple-beat-child-to-death-with-%E2%80%9Cbiblical-rod%E2%80%9D/
This teen male was beaten to death in the church for sinning
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-church-fatal-beating-20151017-story.html
This little 7-year-old was tortured to death for Jesus because he didn't read his Bible and do his homework:
http://lasvegassun.com/news/2012/dec/03/mother-stepfather-arrested-beating-death-7-year-ol/
I can go on, but my heart is already broken just finding those stories.
"Tell me the last time a fundy Christian killed their kid?" Are you fucking kidding me? You cannot be that blind. Or maybe you can...
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)It is a rare exception in other religions.
Fairgo
(1,571 posts)The stolen generations of children ripped from first nation families and beaten into servant roles at "school" by the thoroughly churched up pioneer christians. Manifest Destiny, while we are at it, gave christian cover to genocide. Bush was called by god to commit global atrocities, and blessed by his church. You know, third world countries have a crude style in the delivery of their religion born evil, but the suffering and pain and death visited upon them by god fearing christians makes them appear as rank amateurs. You really don't want to start stacking the bodies up in some sordid competition for the title of lesser evil...there is no winner in this game.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)where it comes to the routine abuse of women and children. Not even close.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)and to the Native kids ripped from their families' arms, and to the multitude of children, including my own father, who were hideously abused by the Catholic church. Tell that to the kids above beaten to death for Jesus in the last few years.
Tell that to the kids in the US locked up in our draconian juvenile facilities. Tell that to Tamir Rice. Tell that to the little baby whose face was nearly blown off by a flash grenade in Georgia. Who is accountable for their mistreatment and death? Not a goddamned soul is held accountable in the US. Read that correctly: NOT A GODDAMNED SOUL is held accountable for the deaths and mistreatment of so many kids in this nation.
Tell that to the FLDS wives married off when they're barely menstruating.
Evil is evil wherever it is. You want to point the finger without taking any responsibility for our own failings as a nation.
This thread is smirkymonkeys platform to bash liberals, so go ahead and do that if it makes you feel all special and conservativish, but stop lying and pretending that we don't have a long way to go to be some bastion of child-friendliness.
I hope you've enjoyed yourself here, because you have done NOTHING to help any child anywhere. You have an obvious agenda, in my opinion, and it disgusts me.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)or not happening anymore. I will not stick up for an anti-western, anti-democratic, anti-woman, anti-child, anti-gay, anti-Jew, anti-human rights sick ideology. You may find doing so makes you liberal. I do not.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)Not in the US. We're saints to kids!
Or maybe not:
http://www.aecf.org/resources/maltreatment-of-youth-in-us-juvenile-corrections-facilities/
No Place for Kids, released in 2011, identified systemic or recurring maltreatment of confined youth in 22 states and the District of Columbia since 2000. Four years later, seven new states have joined this ignoble list. Pervasive problems with physical abuse and excessive use of force by facility staff; sexual abuse; overreliance on isolation and restraints; youth-on-youth violence; and violence against staff have shown no sign of abating. Rather, a flood of new maltreatment revelations have emerged in juvenile corrections facilities across the nation.
This troubling evidence shows that large, conventional juvenile corrections facilities — or plainly stated, youth prisons — are inherently prone to abuse. Given the pervasiveness of maltreatment in all regions of the country, it seems difficult to argue that confinement in these kinds of institutions offers a safe approach for rehabilitating youth.
Looks like in 29 states, routine abuse of juveniles by our government is the rule. Who is held accountable? When did you ever care about any of those girls?
Typical how you've had so much to say in this thread, and now when called on your obvious agenda (in my opinion) it's motherfucking crickets.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Not so in the muslim world.
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)that only exists in your mind.
Believe me, I loathe Saudis and Daesh and the Taliban for their laws and am proud to say it. But to say that our justice system or mental health systems are called to account for the evil ways they treat children and mentally disabled in this nation is completely out in la-la land.
There is no one paying the price for killing Tamir Rice, and there is no punishment for the people who threw a flash grenade in a baby's crib. Cleared of all charges for murdering a 12-year-old or maiming a toddler. Who is jailing these people when caught? Please tell me, because you must have some news source no one else knows about.
The juvenile justice system in this nation is a shambles. One of my sons is an attorney for indigent clients in Georgia, Alabama and Florida. There is no justice for the kids who are warehoused in our system. We "rehabilitate" them by treating kids like trash and then expect them to assimilate in society. We have nothing to be proud of.
But you keep turning a blind eye to the suffering in your own backyard. It feels soooooo good to demonize others, doesn't it?
And by the way, I suppose we as a nation can't be held accountable for the thousands of kids we killed in Iraq, either. We're so loving toward all children, aren't we?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)That was just the first Google result. Honor killings occur among Muslims, Christians, Jews, Zoroastarians, Sikhs, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, Druze, and Yazidis in South and Southwest Asia, which is actually the common thread there, not Islam. Honor killings predate Islam, and are found throughout that region no matter the killer's religion.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)http://nypost.com/2015/10/16/son-beaten-to-death-because-he-wanted-to-leave-the-church/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/23/israel
http://sparethekids.com/2011/08/christian-couple-beat-child-to-death-with-%E2%80%9Cbiblical-rod%E2%80%9D/
http://wjla.com/news/crime/one-of-two-women-accused-of-killing-two-children-during-exorcism-pleads-guilty-110631
Nope not as often as fundy Muslims, but far from rare.
[font color ="FFFFFF"] Prediction: Any response will either pretend these people were not REAL Christians or try to pretend that killing out of a desire to follow their perception of Christianity is, absurdly, not as bad as Muslims killing to follow their perception of Islam [/font]
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Sorry. It's just not ingrained in the culture like it is in islam.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)I would not have bothered responding
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)one does NOT see this. This is seen almost exclusively in cultures dominated by islam.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Last edited Fri Feb 5, 2016, 01:17 PM - Edit history (1)
normal non-violent brethren. Fundies are like a cancer on this world.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)There was more condemnation of that on DU than of ISIS executing gay men by throwing them off buildings.
Rex
(65,616 posts)The Fundie cake makers still share the same mindset and illness as the man that would kill his daughter...they are detached from reality. And both will hide behind laws as well. Funny that.
cali
(114,904 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)Reality is just that way, deal with it?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)for marrying a Muslim?
The problem here is South and Southwest Asian culture, not any particular named superstition.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)..torture of withholding basic medical care so Gawd gets a chance to do the healing, which of course he never gets around to so they die in agony?
Rex
(65,616 posts)can pretend one group of people are better...because they only kill one or two of their children every few weeks instead of hours. I guess that kind of moral flexibility is okay for some.
SCantiGOP
(13,867 posts)With emphasis to the 18 year old who will be casting her first vote in a couple of weeks in the SC primary, even though she doesn't understand why I am so obsessed with political issues.
This brings things into perspective: the differences between Clinton and Sanders are insignificant when compared to the differences in our political system and the horrible system that allows something like this to occur.
clarice
(5,504 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)was pressured by the community into forgiving her cretin of a father and worm for an uncle. And the son of a bitch is PROUD of what he did to her. She fought for her life, got him arrested and for nothing. He's free and proud. This story is nauseating and that this is LEGAL in Pakistan (and I'm sure in other Muslim countries) is sickening. I would have put a knife in his fucking chest if I were unfortunate enough to be married to this disgusting piece of filth.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)It takes religion to make good people do bad things.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Squinch
(50,933 posts)answer to both is "yes," then you should give them a wide berth.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)highly acclaimed and Oscar nominated, not a bigoted piece of bait but a strong and well crafted advocacy for victims of a terrible crime don't you? The film happens to be very good.
Are you of the opinion that it is wrong to make a film about her story or to discuss this issue?
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)Well said.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)you should probably be on your guard.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)trapped in very vicious cultures.
I am a woman. I find your attempt to divert from the topic rather sick and rather offensive.
This is not spreading bigotry. This is COMBATTING BIGOTRY. This is combatting a culture that not only tolerates teaching men that they should do such things, but honors and supports men when they:
- Force their daughters into marriages,
- Beat, starve and often kill their daughters if they try to evade the marriage,
- Give their children back to husbands who are brutally abusing them,
- Tolerates sexual abuse of the young generally,
- And tolerates and encourages abuse of homosexuals, which pretty much goes right along with oppressing females in cultures.
I could go on. I could discuss FGM, in its most vicious forms. I could discuss pure neglect of female children so extreme that sex imbalances are obvious in demographics. I could discuss cultures which think that an unattended woman is fair game. But I won't.
Not all of these cultures are Muslim. The reason why this sort of thing matters to all women is that it seems that, historically speaking, many societies have evolved cultures that treat women viciously. Of course slavery was just about universal also. Women are generally aware that the rights and freedoms we have won in western democracies are an historical oddity and not deeply rooted in culture.
You are posting on a politically progressive website that exists for the purpose of trying to evolve and support political and social forms that treat human beings BETTER.
The original post should matter to you. If it doesn't, ask yourself why.
As for me, every time I see a post like yours on DU I remind myself that the battle is not won - not even in western democracies. If it had been won, you would be too ashamed to do this, and you aren't.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts) leftynyc
(26,060 posts)And very eloquently explained my disgust for so many liberals who can't even bring themselves to discuss what happened to this girl before the deflections and minimizing begins. What the fuck is wrong with these people? So fucking open minded their brains have fallen out along with their compassion.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)Think about what it says about us, and what it says about what liberalism has accomplished in the world, and then pause for a moment to think about what has been gained and what it would mean if we lost those difficult and painful steps forward.
Can we really even offer meaningful refuge to women trying to escape from these cultures (along with their husbands and children, often) if we then permit the rights of women in subcultures in our nations to be eroded/ignored? Obviously we can't.
The battle isn't won, and perhaps we are still in the first third of it.
The cultural traits to which I referred victimize most people in those cultures. There are few real winners and many horrific losers. There is no reason for any of us to think that we are being "liberal" when we ignore basic human rights as an issue in any culture.
Any human being should be proud to be truly liberal, but it isn't easy to sustain the effort.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)is that many liberals are far more interested in being politically correct than in defending women.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)It would be very, very easy to see the world our daughters grew up in change to something that would horrify our grandmothers. Very easy.
There's no reason why this should happen if we take a stand now and point out the drift. But the tendency to drift away from equal treatment is clearly evident.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)We just have to straighten our shoulders, tighten our earrings and keep fighting. We owe it to those whose voices are not heard now and for those who come after us do to all we can despite the weariness of the burden.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I can't rec this enough.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)of their own male relatives. It is an open question as to whether fathers love their daughters in places like rural Pakistan.
Squinch
(50,933 posts)headscarves! It's a joy fest!
So to answer the other OP, how can anyone look at this, and look at the outfit in that picture, and not understand that there are many people who use this religion as an excuse to crush women under the heel.
And before anyone says, "Oh, well, every religion does that," I will say: 1) Yes they do, but even the worst of them does not require that women erase themselves and 2) even the worst does not glorify the act of murdering women who are not compliant and 3) Yes, I understand that this is an issue of Islamic fundamentalism but let's stop letting the conversation stop there.
When murders and erasure of identity are committed on women by fundamentalist Christian sects, we acknowledge it. And we don't encourage its spread by saying that objections to it are bigoted.
Let's do the same with the obvious hatred of women within fundamentalist Islam.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)and often CONVICT the murderers and oppressors. We don't let them out of jail because the "community" pressures the victim to forgive. Warren Jeffs is spending the rest of his miserable life in prison. This vermin is free and proud of what he did.
Squinch
(50,933 posts)this kind of burqa.
Seeing it regularly in person, it is clear to me that there is nothing to it but deep, seething hatred for women.
And it is also important to remember, it really has nothing to do with Islam. This crap is entirely cultural. The Islamic religion does not require burqas. But religion - this particular religion - is used as the excuse for this rank cruelty.
Those who practice that kind of cruelty should not be acceptable to thinking people.
I've seen the niqab in NYC - once up on Madison Avenue in the 50s (headscarves are pretty ubiquitous) but never a burka in person until I was in Amman Jordan (on my way to Petra) this past year. It was startling to me and while my friends were inside a bakery getting snacks, I was outside having a smoke and then started noticing all the stares and glares I was getting from all the men. At first I felt afraid but then I straightened my back and stared right back. This went on until my friends came outside again. I went to my NYC roots and knew you NEVER show fear to a mob.
Squinch
(50,933 posts)In a neighborhood off Pelham Parkway. Two years ago, I had never seen one, and now it is every second woman. I don't know if people have moved in, which would be bad enough, or if they are spreading to people who already lived there, which would be infinitely worse.
They are horrible. I am so sad for those women, and whoever wants to judge me for saying that can have at it. It won't change my opinion. I would completely support outlawing them.
As for your experience, I don't know what I would have done. You were outnumbered, and they felt entitled to think you needed correction. It's a scary thought.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)you'll get is for your good sense. The bakery in Jordan was on a very well lit busy street. There were a lot of people inside and outside. We also had a driver and a guide who (I learned when we got back in the car) didn't take their eyes off me. I didn't really think they'd physically hurt me - just intimidate and harass me which I didn't let them do. I looked just like them - I'm dark skinned, brunette, brown eyes. But I would imagine our appearance still screamed American. It was a long drive to get to the bakery (we were coming from Northern Israel) and we saw many schools being let out for the day. No girls. Not one. I do give Jordan credit for taking in so many refugees from Syria. They're not a rich country and they've taken in more than anyone else.
I'm hardly ever in the Bronx - except for training through on my commute to Westchester (and hitting Arthur Avenue for some really great Italian food stuff and of course, Yankee games even though I'm really a Mets fan). There was a large Muslim community not far from me when I lived in Brooklyn 25 years ago but never saw anything other than hijab. But I've heard things have changed there as well.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)If the burqa and the niqab were a purely cultural phenomenon, you wouldn't see them enjoying varying degrees of acceptance from Morocco all the way to Pakistan.
The expectation that women will cover themselves beneath these things might be cultural, but the spirit of that expectation is purely religious. The Qur'an regularly admonishes women to cover up their "private" (loosely translated here) parts and to dress modestly, the spirit of the law being that women should not tempt men into impure thought or action. Some men are turned on by eyes; ergo the burqa.
Squinch
(50,933 posts)yet feel that they are following the Muslim faith correctly. It is all in the interpretation, as you point out, and that interpretation is cultural. And along with that culture, you get this crap, and female genital mutilation, and honor killings.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... because GAWD said it's cool.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)for it. Unlike this father and uncle who are free, proud and can do it again to another one of their daughters. All because the COMMUNITY shamed the victim and the LAW allowed them to free him. That's quite the difference, don't you think?
TipTok
(2,474 posts)If the folks in charge of that system were able to invoke the almighty GAWD as a mitigating factor, I wouldn't be so confident they would be there.
In short, the modern world is better off despite its Christian influence and not because of it.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)with what happened to this woman. Why are you so desperate to compare the conditions for women in Muslim countries by making absurd if, if, if these things were the same? They're not the same. We DO live in a secular society, our constitution demands it. What the fuck does that have to do with what happened to this woman, who, by the way, you haven't expressed one word of sympathy for. Not one word. Nobody here is claiming our society is better off for being majority Christian. Nobody. All you're doing is setting up straw men.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)A false equivalency.
TipTok
(2,474 posts)... and not because of it.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)TipTok
(2,474 posts)... and only recently have we begun to pull away from it. Others haven't been so lucky and frankly we aren't that far down the road.
Pop over to Pakistan or Afghanistan and try and separate the religion from the 'culture'... It's bloody impossible... I've checked...
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)It's a chimera to call it Islam. Rules in Islam are frequently ignored by the cultures that are theoretically most Muslim.
For example, Muhammed forbade forced marriage of daughters. Hah. Not observed.
FGM predates Islam. Dowers and so forth.
Burqas and esp. niqab not required by Islam. Saudi Arabia is theoretically a fundamentalist Wahabi state, but when the culture conflicts with the Koran and the Hadith, guess which one wins?
http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/women_dress_code_%28P1150%29.html
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)But I guess if he was opposed to "forced" marriage his 6-year old bride must have entered the marriage of her own free will.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)From your link:
See also: Criticism of Muhammad (Aisha), Islam and children § Marriage and Child marriage
Aisha's age at the time she was married to Muhammad has been of interest since the earliest days of Islam, and references to her age by early historians are frequent.[11] According to Sunni scriptural Hadith sources, Aisha was six or seven years old when she was married to Muhammad and nine when the marriage was consummated.[10][11][12][13][14][23] For example, Sahih al-Bukhari states:
Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
—?Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:62:64
Some traditional sources disagree. Ibn Hisham wrote in his biography of Muhammad that she may have been ten years old at the consummation.[11] Ibn Khallikan, as well as Ibn Sa'd al-Baghdadi citing Hisham ibn Urwah, record that she was nine years old at marriage, and twelve at consummation.[24] Sadakat Kadri points out that the recording of Aisha's age by Ibn Sa'd and Bukhari (though the hadith was Sahih) came a couple of centuries after the Prophet's death.[25] Child marriage was not uncommon in many places at the time, Arabia included. It often served political purposes, and Aisha's marriage to Muhammad would have had a political connotation.[24]
TipTok
(2,474 posts)Any Muslim who did (insert horrific act here) certainly isn't a muslim... Right?
As for ol' Mo he seemed to be of two minds depending on which bits you read. All the friendly stuff is towards the front and the warmaking and conversion by the sword bit comes later.
Doubly unfortunately, the practice is to accept the latter stuff as the most correct.
Lastly, none of that even matters, if a nutter shoots his daughter because his honor and his god demand it, then he did it for his religion. Even if you think it wasn't because of religion but honor and prestige, it was the religion that drove the culture that reduced his daughter to such a low level that she was worth killing.
Those nasty things that you mentioned (and many more) are done in the name of a god. Pick your variation depending on geographic location, ethnicity and level of education.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)It's obvious that many are doing horrific acts PRECISELY because their version of Islam tells them to do it.
Also we are generating new wackoid sects here in the west along with those being generated in Africa and the Middle East, not to mention a few Asian offshoots.
If you are accusing me of being a Muslim apologist, I am very proud of myself, because I seemed to have convinced a few others that I am a raving anti-Muslim bigot.
Unlike most here who post on this topic, I have read the Koran or Quran, however it is fashionable to spell it. I know Islam is not a religion of peace. It is a religion of conflict and struggle. There are several interpretations of that struggle, one of them being that the primary duty is to fight the battle with the ego so as to lead a good life.
People are blaming Islam for all the world's problems, but the Eritrean who was quoted in the NYT as saying that in Africa, if you wanted a woman you could just take her was probably a Christian.
Culture usually conquers difficult ethical mandates in religion, rather than religion conquering culture.
I will leave you with the words of Al-Sisi:
http://www.raymondibrahim.com/2015/01/01/egypts-sisi-islamic-thinking-is-antagonizing-the-entire-world/
That thinking—I am not saying “religion” but “thinking”—that corpus of texts and ideas that we have sacralized over the centuries, to the point that departing from them has become almost impossible, is antagonizing the entire world. It’s antagonizing the entire world!
Is it possible that 1.6 billion people [Muslims] should want to kill the rest of the world’s inhabitants—that is 7 billion—so that they themselves may live? Impossible!
I am saying these words here at Al Azhar, before this assembly of scholars and ulema—Allah Almighty be witness to your truth on Judgment Day concerning that which I’m talking about now.
All this that I am telling you, you cannot feel it if you remain trapped within this mindset. You need to step outside of yourselves to be able to observe it and reflect on it from a more enlightened perspective.
I say and repeat again that we are in need of a religious revolution. You, imams, are responsible before Allah. The entire world, I say it again, the entire world is waiting for your next move… because this umma is being torn, it is being destroyed, it is being lost—and it is being lost by our own hands.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Some here fail to see any differences whatsoever.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)They're so desperate to make a comparison and bash the west it's constantly IF, IF, IF this was the case. IT'S NOT THE CASE. It's like they're getting paid to prove Bill Maher right.
SunSeeker
(51,545 posts)
drm604
(16,230 posts)Family honor? How much more dishonorable can you get than killing your own child? That is the dishonorable act, not falling in love and getting married. 
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)He's PROUD of what he did and she was pressured to forgive him and get him released. It's sick.
It's like we're talking about an alien planet. I just can't fathom it.
I know that not everybody there thinks like that, but there's enough that people can get away with it.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)shamed her into forgiving him so they could let him go. My heart breaks for this girl who will never know justice. How she doesn't plunge a knife in that motherfucker's heart is beyond me. Good for her first for the courage and conviction it took to even survive what he did to her and for allowing her story to be told in a documentary (which I will be seriously rooting for during the Oscars). She's one tough lady.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)How the men can do this. How the women can forgive them. I will never understand them.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)forgiveness. What the fuck kind of forgiveness is that? Now she has to live knowing the people who tried to kill her are walking about PROUD of what they did, how they protected their precious honor. It's sickening. And so is the desperation of those who want to compare that society to the west.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)even their own children.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)After all, he failed as a parent since his daughter didn't grow up to make the "right" choices. That's on him as the leader of the family.
clarice
(5,504 posts)
Quantess
(27,630 posts)Our culture tells us that we're ...well, you pretty much get it. But maybe we ARE right? meaning, for women and for gays?
Many 3rd world cultures have WILDLY DIFFERENT ideas of parenting than we in western cultures do.
How about, repeat after me (if you happen to be woman), "I AM A WOMAN" and "I WILL GO AROUND DRESSED HOWEVER I WANT, AND NOT I'M BE AFRAID OF BEING RAPED, NO MATTER HOW MUCH I DRANK!" No matter how many gross, uncivilized, men are creeping around you, being disrepectful. Fuck Them!!!
But yes, absolutely. The Dad failed parenting skills. I would love to see this turned around on her father just once!
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I cannot fathom how this culture can possibly justify this. Their hatred of everything female must be so profound as to allow the acceptance - and even celebration - of the murder of one' own daughter or family member.
Iggo
(47,545 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)How does a culture turn fathers into homicidal maniacs? Just because they cannot HAVE THEIR WAY? What kind of insane thinking is this???
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)family would sacrifice their lives for their daughters (and their sons). That is just how much they love their children. This is an incredibly sick, warped culture.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)And all religions include individuals who do horrible things.
I am no fan of any of the Abrahamic religions, because it's 2016 and none of us should be following the advice of ignorant Bronze Age goat herders.
But this "Oh My! That terrible religion! I never!" are so disingenuous.
To pat yourself on the back and feel so superior is ridiculous given all religions' terrible behavior.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/muslims-who-saved-jews-from-holocaust-commemorated-in-i-am-your-protector-campiagn-a6851356.html
When the Nazis began implementing anti-Jewish laws in occupied France, Mr Sardari, head of the Iranian Consulate in Paris, used the Nazis’ own racial purity laws to convince the group Iranian Jews were actually Aryan and not subject to the Reich’s racial laws.
Issuing Iranian passports to occupied Jews, without the consent of his superiors, Mr Sardari helped 2,000 Jews escape the Nazi regime.
Mr Sardari is just one of many people who feature in a new campaign honouring Muslims who risked their lives to save Jews during the Holocaust.
snip
Si Ali Sakkat, former mayor in Tunisia and descendent of Prophet Mohammed, protected 60 Jewish escapees from a labour camp by hiding them on his estate.
I'm sure at that time, it was Muslims saying, "Fuck these sicko Christians and their ovens."
Religious zealotry and hatred of "the other" is nothing new under the sun.
My heart goes out to this girl, but when I see US judges let rich child rapists go free, or blame victims for their rapes, or even force a woman to forgive her rapist (see below) and when I think of the miniscule penalties for killing and raping women and girls in this country compared to property crime and drug penalties, I just gotta roll my eyes at some of the pearl-clutching comments here.
http://crimewatchdaily.com/2015/10/12/judge-orders-woman-to-forgive-rapist-husband/
http://www.whattoexpect.com/forums/hot-topics-1/topic/judge-orders-rape-victim-to-pay-spousal-support-to-her-rapist.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/victim-blaming-montana-judge-receive-award-article-1.2197163
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/09/25/3572263/pennsylvania-blame-rape-victim/
romanic
(2,841 posts)Blah blah blah.
It's thier culture...
Blah blah blah.
Christians do it too.
Blah blah blah.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)and emotional connections. There was the Waorani tribe in south america where murder was a normal part of life, just a regular form of conflict resolution pre-western contact. They obviously had developed a very different set of socials norms and human emotions.
Maybe in things like honor killings the families that live by those rules subconsciously (or consciously) keep an emotional distance from each other knowing that someday they might "be required" to kill that family member in the future.
Maybe love develops differently in cultures, just as violence does.
Some places when a family member is murdered the family of the victim expects payment instead of justice and that is "just how they do it". Is that learned or has it actually made a different development in the brain within groups?
Anyway, just rambling my thoughts a bit to quell tonight's insomnia.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I would think it would be the strongest bond one would have. It just seems brutal to me, no matter what culture you are from.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)But maybe over time there is some lessening of the bond between parent and child somehow? I'm just sort of voicing random thoughts while my brain tries to understand what can drive so many people to do this type of thing. Is it Jonestown on a massive scale? Are they brainwashed?
I hope some researchers out there can start to figure it out, because unless they do there will continue to be women killed for this absurd thing called "honor"
Skittles
(153,138 posts)raccoon
(31,106 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)family's wishes.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)nt
B Calm
(28,762 posts)teachings that caused her deranged father to do this, that's all I'm saying.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)was wrong.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)WHETHER it wins or not, the Oscar nominee with the greatest impact — saving lives of perhaps thousands of girls — may be one you’ve never heard of.
It stars not Leonardo DiCaprio but a real-life 19-year-old Pakistani woman named Saba Qaiser. Her odyssey began when she fell in love against her family’s wishes and ran off to marry her boyfriend. Hours after the marriage, her father and uncle sweet-talked her into their car and took her to a spot along a riverbank to murder her for her defiance — an “honor killing.”
First they beat Saba, then her uncle held her as her own father pointed a pistol at her head and pulled the trigger. Blood spewed, Saba collapsed and her father and uncle packed her body into a large sack and threw it into the river to sink. They then drove away, thinking they had restored the family’s good name.
Incredibly, Saba was unconscious but alive. She had jerked her head as the gun went off, and the bullet tore through the left side of her face but didn’t kill her. The river water revived her, and she clawed her way out of the sack and crawled onto land. She staggered toward a gasoline station, and someone called for help.
About every 90 minutes, an honor killing unfolds somewhere in the world, usually in a Muslim country. Pakistan alone has more than 1,000 a year, and the killers often go unpunished.
Watching the documentary about Saba, “A Girl in the River: The Price of Forgiveness,” I kept thinking that just as in the 19th century the central moral challenge for the world was slavery, and in the 20th century it was totalitarianism, in this century the foremost moral issue is the abuse and oppression that is the lot of so many women and girls around the world.
I don’t know whether “A Girl in the River” will win an Oscar in its category, short subject documentary, but it is already making a difference. Citing the film, Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif of Pakistan has promised to change the country’s laws so as to crack down on honor killings.
Saba’s story underscores how the existing law lets people literally get away with murder when honor is the excuse. After doctors saved Saba’s life — as police officers guarded the door so her father didn’t return to finish the job — she was determined to prosecute her father and uncle.
“They should be shot in public in an open market,” she told the filmmaker, Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy, “so that such a thing never happens again.”
The police arrested Saba’s father, Maqsood, and the uncle, Muhammad, and their defense was that they did the right thing.
“She took away our honor,” Maqsood said from his jail cell. “If you put one drop of piss in a gallon of milk, the whole thing gets destroyed. That’s what she has done. … So I said, ‘No, I will kill you myself.’”
Maqsood said that after shooting Saba he went home and told his wife, “I have gone and killed your daughter.” He added: “My wife cried. What else could she do? I am her husband. She is just my wife.”
Perpetrators of honor killings often are not prosecuted because Pakistani law allows families of victims to forgive a killing. So a man kills his daughter, the rest of the family forgives him, and he’s off the hook.
Tremendous pressure was applied to Saba by community elders to pardon her father and uncle. In the end, her husband’s older brother — the head of her new family — told her to forgive and move on. “There is no other way,” he said. “We have to live in the same neighborhood.”
Saba complied, and her father and uncle were released from prison. “After this incident, everyone says I am more respected,” her father boasted. “I can proudly say that for generations to come none of my descendants will ever think of doing what Saba did.” The families still live near each other, although the father insists he will not try again to kill Saba.
The way to reduce honor killings is to end the impunity. Saba tried to do her part, and let’s hope Prime MinisterSharif does indeed end the legal system of forgiveness.
“I wanted to start a national discourse about the issue,” says Obaid-Chinoy, the film’s director. “Until we send people to jail and make examples of them, honor killings will continue.”
Since 9/11, the United States has spent billions of dollars reshaping Afghanistan and Pakistan with the military toolbox; I suspect we would have achieved more if we had relied to a greater extent on the education and women’s empowerment toolboxes.
A starting point would be to encourage governments to protect teenage girls from fathers who want to murder them. Chipping away at this broad pattern of gender injustice is in the interest of all of us. It is our century’s great unfinished business.
And a link in the article. .....
Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif vowed Pakistan would eradicate “evil” honour killings as he congratulated director Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy on her Oscar nomination for a harrowing documentary on the practice.
“A Girl in the River: The Price of Forgiveness”, which follows the story of a rare survivor, was nominated in the documentary short category of the Academy Awards on Thursday.
Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy’s documentary bags Oscar nomination
Hundreds of women are murdered by their relatives in Pakistan each year on the grounds of defending family “honour”.
Their male murderers are then “pardoned” by relatives under the country’s controversial Islamic blood money laws that allow murderers to escape punishment.
A statement from the prime minister’s office late Thursday offered Chinoy, who made history in 2012 when she won Pakistan’s first Oscar for another documentary, the premier’s congratulations.
“Honour killings, the theme of the film, afflict several segments of Pakistani society,” it quoted Sharif as saying.
He “expressed the government’s commitment to rid Pakistan of this evil by bringing in appropriate legislation”, the statement continued, adding that Chinoy’s “insights” could prove helpful.
Two women murdered by in-laws in honour killing in Rahim Yar Khan
Chinoy said on Twitter that she was “delighted” that PM Nawaz had made the commitment.
“Next step is to push all the politicians to call a joint session & get the anti honor crime bill passed that has lapsed in parliament!” she said in another tweet.
“There is no Honor in Honor Killing- It is not part of our religion or culture- It is a stain on our society,” she said.
Chinoy was feted across Pakistan in 2012 when she won the country’s first Oscar for “Saving Face”, a 40-minute documentary that exposed the horrors endured by women who survive devastating acid attacks.
It focuses on two women, Zakia and Rukhsana, as they fight to rebuild their lives after being attacked by their husbands, and British Pakistani plastic surgeon Mohammad Jawad who tries to help repair their shattered faces.
Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy’s A Girl in the River shortlisted for Oscar
Acid attacks, which disfigure and often blind their overwhelmingly female victims, have long been used to settle personal or family scores in Pakistan, with hundreds of cases reported each year.
The attacks along with honour killings fit a wider pattern of eroding women’s rights in the conservative Muslim nation, where women are frequently treated as second-class citizens and there is no law against domestic violence
B Calm
(28,762 posts)
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)...should be institutionalized and forcibly medicated.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)But why post it if it's not an attempt to smear all Moslems with the same brush. As if Americans are so much more civilised.
Cheyanne Jessie’s 6-year-old daughter and 50-year-old father hadn’t been seen for 13 days and Polk County detectives say they were receiving an ever-changing story from the dry-eyed Florida mother.
First, Cheyanne allegedly told police on Saturday that Mark Weekly absconded to Georgia with his granddaughter, Meredith Jessie. A text from Weekly’s phone said he had a year left to live and wanted to spend his remaining time with his granddaughter. Then, cops say, Cheyanne admitted to having an argument with her father. After a while, she allegedly admitted that verbal argument became a physical altercation.
“And things don’t smell right,” Sheriff Grady Judd said Sunday. “Literally. They don’t smell right. There’s a foul odor in the house.”
Early Sunday morning police found the dead bodies of Meredith Jessie and Mark Weekly, stabbed and shot, stuffed in tote bags and stacked on top of each other in a nearby shed, the alleged victims of Cheyanne.
“When you’ve been around as long as I have you’ve seen things this bad, but I’ve never seen anything worse,” Judd said.
Cops believe Cheyanne, 25, killed her child and her father on July 18, disposed of the bodies and then went to work at her cashier’s job at a local big box retailer. She allegedly sent messages from her father’s phone detailing the Georgia story in an effort to stave off suspicion.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/02/grandfather-and-granddaughter-6-found-murdered-cops-say.html
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)does also murder their kids and fathers?
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)She's American, they like shooting up schools and cinemas. That's what they do.
See how easy it is to denigrate a whole group of people based on the actions of a few nutters/intolerant bigots.
I live two doors down from two Moslem families and they are lovely.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)to the abuse and murder of women, children or men are bad.
The article stated that in the predominantly Muslim country where this happened, murdering women is accepted and tolerated because of the citizens' religious beliefs.
OBVIOUSLY, people all over America (and the planet) are murdered for all kinds of reasons. The difference is that a muderer in America gets in trouble.
Americans do not tolerate killing young women who act in a manner displeasing to their families. They put them in jail. People who shoot up cinemas and schools, get put in jail. Maybe you forgot to read the article before you replied.
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)It's by Richard Dawkins, who has an agenda. He's as much a proselytiser as Billy Graham or Abu Hamza.
Americans tolerated the murder of Trayvon Martin alright.
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)A young Hindu couple in the Punjab dared to marry for love—but without permission from the bride’s family.
Sandeep Rani and his wife, Khushboo, knew enough to flee their homes and to seek a court order of protection, which the Punjab and Haryana High Court granted them.
They did not know enough to go into permanent hiding or to move far, far away. Instead, they returned to their home village of Mugowal and showed their court order to the local police in Hoshiarpur. Apparently, the police chose not to protect them. However, the police also claim that either the couple did not “accept protection” or did not advise the police as to their exact whereabouts. An investigation is underway.
In any event, on the night of January 3rd, the couple were killed by five masked men. They were horribly stabbed and hacked to death with knives and swords.
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/01/06/family-honor-kills-indian-newlyweds-for-marrying-without-parental-consent/
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)"In sharp contrast to their Pakistani counterparts, Indian government officials have vigorously condemned honor killings. In 2010, a Haryana Court sentenced five men to death for the honor murder of a young couple who had married despite being members of the same sub-caste, while also giving life sentences to the head of the khap panchayat (religious council) that ordered their deaths."
The issue is many Muslim countries allow these murders to go unpunished. Religious (and nonreligious) nuts all over the planet do all kinds of bad things. Yes, got it.
Does the larger society condemn their heinous acts or does the larger society ignore their heinous acts for religious reasons? That's what the original post was about. A COUNTRY that allows individual men to kill individual women without consequences if they kill for religious reasons.
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)Like the democratically elected Allende in Chile, resulting in thousands of disappeared. Or the abortive coup attempt in Venezuela under Bush or more recently in Honduras.
Moslems didn't do any of that. Where's the "he who is without sin cast the first stone?" Never mind, you just keep patting yourselves on the back and saying how wonderful you all are.
So much concern for one murdered Pakistani woman is in stark contrast to the lack of concern for all the Syrian refugees fleeing into Europe right now. Most of which can be traced back to the illegal war in Iraq.
It couldn't be that you're using incidences like this just to excuse the Islamophobia running riot in America right now.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)does the original post pat non-muslims on the back.
You're the one stretching and contorting to justify acts that should have no justification. If you would like to start a post on America's societal ills, please feel free. There are many such posts, as there should be.
No society, people, or country she should get a free pass for murdering disobeying women.
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)There's a humanitarian crisis of epic proportions going on in Syria right now. Why highlight wrongdoings in a Moslem land if not to justify your collective inaction. The sort of words being used are reminiscent of how the Puritans described the native American in order to justify stealing their land.
A free pass? Have you any understanding whatsoever of how Pakistan functions? The tribal areas aren't like the wild west, they're like wild Macedonia circa Alexander the Great. The only thing that's changed is they've got AK47s. How do you go about administering law and order in a place like that?
This happened only a couple of weeks ago.
At least 10 people have been killed by a suicide bomber riding a motorbike close to a police checkpoint in north-western Pakistan, police say.
About 20 people were also wounded in the blast, which took place in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (Fata) on the outskirts of Peshawar.
There has been fierce fighting in the region between security forces and the Pakistani Taliban.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35349949
And the article tarred all Pakistanis with the same brush, no mention of people like Imran Khan and the work he's trying to do. No mention of Benazir Bhutto, who like her father was murdered for trying to bring about reforms.
It's so much easier to condemn after all.
Your system of free passes is academic anyway. Pakistan has the bomb, so they're always going to be treated with kid gloves. They may even get some free passes too.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)of how Pakistan tribal areas work.... largely under Sharia law. Hence, violence against women going largely unpunished.
The article is about a documentary about this abused woman's story and you're complaining because the article didn't talk about this or that, which you would have preferred. This is just silly.
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)If the same woman had been killed by a US drone strike she'd be dismissed as collateral damage, but because she's been killed by a Moslem man you all feign concern. How about doing something concrete, get Sanders or Clinton or whoever it is you support to announce that all Pakistani women who fear they may be victims of honour killing will be given immediate asylum in America? Or does your compassion not stretch to actually having a Moslem woman living in the same street?
Or you could do something a bit closer to home. What about doing something about the thousands of people killed by guns every year in America? Nothing's been done about that. It took one incident, (Dunblane,) for us to take action. So don't pretend to actually care about the lives of women and children when you let the gun nuts run riot.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)accomplish your concrete wish list, such as making Hillary or Bernie announce such a thing, please, do share.
To suggest I don't really care because I don't snap my fingers and fix all of America's problems, is ludicrous.
I, and the people on this board and people all over the county, spend lots of time trying to figure out how to make concrete changes to America and it's policies for the better and working towards those goals.
America not being the beacon of perfection does not mean that Americans cannot read articles on other countries and have opinions. Religious nuts are also causing problems and taking away rights of women in America right now. There are hundreds of threads and articles posted about it on this board. I comment on those articles, too.
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)Where's your concrete plan for stopping honour killings in Pakistan?
I never said you weren't allowed to have an opinion. I just questioned the motives of discussing honour killing in Pakistan when there's an unprecedented refugee crisis going on right now and Trump is making political headway by refusing entry to all Moslems.
I don't get the impression that you're really that bothered about women's rights in Pakistan, it's just a convenient stick with which to beat all Moslems with.
Would you be happy having a Moslem woman living in the same street as you?
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)Nobody on this board supports Trump or his rhetoric.
Of course, I would be more than happy to have a Muslim woman or man living on my street. Have my kids play with their kids, etc., etc. I see Muslims every day. There is a mosque within 15 miles of my house. Do you think Muslims do not live in America??
I have no general problem with Muslims or other religious people who do not feel entitled to abuse people because of their imaginary idols.
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)Another DUer posted that some of the Islamophobic language on here would not be out of place coming from the far right in Europe. I have to agree. The sad fact is a lot of people on here don't even recognise it as such.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)some of which are muslim, some are not.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Hate to break this to you but just Pakistan ALONE had over 1000 honor killings last year and this happens EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Honor killings - for things like holding hands with a boy, falling in love with the "wrong" boy. And all done in the name of religion. Your desperation to minimize the lives of women in Muslim countries is repulsive. And like so many others on DU - you don't even show one word of compassion for what THIS woman went through - just try to change the subject. It's pathetic.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/05/28/in-pakistan-honor-killings-claim-1000-womens-lives-annually-why-is-this-still-happening/
Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)For all your "compassion" you've not offered any solutions, just a load of hand wringing. I've already said what's happening is terrible. I've not tried to minimise what's going on either. I've pointed out that you've not got such clean hands either. I've not seen any real compassion coming from you either, just hypocritical bigotry.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)and I have a stepdaughter that makes my life hell. She also made the light of my life- my 26 month old granddaughter. I would die before I would see her hurt.
NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)LeftishBrit
(41,205 posts)Pakistan is a country where there is a big conflict between those who accept modern values and those who seem to prefer mediaeval times.
The same goes for many places.
Support women's rights everywhere!
http://www.womankind.org.uk
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)Last edited Sat Feb 6, 2016, 08:48 AM - Edit history (1)
No Arab women were saved in the making of this thread.
Its purpose, I believe now, is only to bash liberals.
"Well, I'm gonna agree with the misogynist Bill Maher that liberals love Muslims even though they're all awful, terrible, rotten people who do bad things to their daughters."
As our own nation murders its mentally ill women (and men) in our jails. As we warehouse our boys and girls in facilities that Dickens would be shocked to see. As we allow our Congress and state legislatures to reduce women's rights to reproductive choice to none in so many places. Where are all of these "daughter lovers" when Planned Parenthood funding is cut? When judges in the US tell women to "forgive their rapists?" Nowhere to be seen, from the usernames I see here just soooooooo concerned about women.
For fucks sake, I feel like such a fool for taking the bait in this nasty ass thread. This is just like the Willy Horton days, when you were called a "liberal _____-lover" if you were white and defended "those people" and you all fucking know what I'm talking about.
You want to talk about barbarism? How about a nation that lets cops boil a man to death in a shower? Or kill a mentally ill woman for speeding? We have nothing to goddamned brag about in the uncivilized behavior department. But I suspect the liberal-bashers on this thread know that.
This thread has nothing to do with concern for Arab women, and everything to do with blaming it on liberals like everything else that fools blame on liberals, and it's disgusting to read on this site.
I will paraphrase Jesus: If you want to criticise another culture or another person, take that enormous motherfucking PLANK out of your own eyes first. This thread is sick. Arab women are simply being used here to fit someone's sick political agenda.
But well played, hand-wringing liberal bashers! Well played.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)Thanks for describing it so well.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)Also, did you imagine that nobody is talking about these incidents in Europe also, once they finally do come to light?
Oh sure, it's ONLY being talked about on the DU.
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)DU happens to be the site that we are both on.
Duh.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)Thanks so much for the update.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Your refusal to criticize the culture that makes such things possible is duly noted, though it is s bit disingenuous as you would-if forced to be honest--answer "hell no" if you think Pakistani culture is more civilized and advanced in how women are treated.
Cute soap box.
