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Are_grits_groceries

(17,111 posts)
Tue May 29, 2012, 05:20 AM May 2012

Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will

Last edited Tue May 29, 2012, 05:30 PM - Edit history (3)

It was not a theoretical question: Mr. Obama has placed himself at the helm of a top secret “nominations” process to designate terrorists for kill or capture, of which the capture part has become largely theoretical. He had vowed to align the fight against Al Qaeda with American values; the chart, introducing people whose deaths he might soon be asked to order, underscored just what a moral and legal conundrum this could be.

Mr. Obama is the liberal law professor who campaigned against the Iraq war and torture, and then insisted on approving every new name on an expanding “kill list,” poring over terrorist suspects’ biographies on what one official calls the macabre “baseball cards” of an unconventional war. When a rare opportunity for a drone strike at a top terrorist arises — but his family is with him — it is the president who has reserved to himself the final moral calculation.
<snip>
They describe a paradoxical leader who shunned the legislative deal-making required to close the detention facility at Guantánamo Bay in Cuba, but approves lethal action without hand-wringing.While he was adamant about narrowing the fight and improving relations with the Muslim world, he has followed the metastasizing enemy into new and dangerous lands. When he applies his lawyering skills to counterterrorism, it is usually to enable, not constrain, his ferocious campaign against Al Qaeda — even when it comes to killing an American cleric in Yemen, a decision that Mr. Obama told colleagues was “an easy one.”
<snip>
The day before the executive orders were issued, the C.I.A.’s top lawyer, John A. Rizzo, had called the White House in a panic. The order prohibited the agency from operating detention facilities, closing once and for all the secret overseas “black sites” where interrogators had brutalized terrorist suspects.
<snip>
Mr. Craig assured him that the new president had no intention of ending rendition — only its abuse, which could lead to American complicity in torture abroad. So a new definition of “detention facility” was inserted, excluding places used to hold people “on a short-term, transitory basis.” Problem solved — and no messy public explanation damped Mr. Obama’s celebration.
<snip>
A very long and worthwhile article to read:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&

If a GOP president was revealed to be doing this, DU would explode.
Yes, Al Qaeda was and is? a problem. However, how many enemies are we making with our 'precise' drone strikes? How many complicatons are we creating in areas around the world when we kill innocent people even though we are oh so sorry?

President Obama never has and never will like the messy business of dealing with Congress. While it's true this group on Capitol Hill is a loathsome meshegas, he isn't the only President who has faced intractable idiots.

Bush began using 'signing statements' that were issued many times after laws were passed. They were signed to supersede parts of those laws through an extremely dubious process. Trying to check this power is difficult because what is really in those signings is hard to find out.

President Obama has continued to use them. He is leading a defacto drone war against gawd knows who in gawd knows where. He has in effect made himself judge, jury, and executioner. It troubles me that he is using information from our intelligence agencies that has proven to be fallible over and over. They have their own agendas that do not necessarily align with what the US is espousing.

Where are the checks and balances? Who sits and advocates for those on those 'macabre terrorists cards' and provides a voice of skepticism? If you only listen to warriors and hardliners, you will only get war and Oh So Sorry Deaths.

President Obama is winding down the war we see and hear about albeit in small and circumscribed doses. He is trying to end the deaths that require knocks on some doors by those bearing the unbearable news of loss. However, he is winding up the war we rarely hear about. That war increases the unbearable losses for people in how many places?

This is not how this country should be run by anybody. It is wrong on multiple levels. I do not pretend that there are no enemies and that they must be engaged. However, this is being done in our names and in black hole secrecy.

Who speaks for us about these actions? Who is in that black hole with some light to at least provide enough clarity so that what is ultimately done can be seen by those there?

AND rendition is rendition. It is by its nature abuse. You can't moderate the abuse of abuse.

We have gone down the rabbit hole after following a Black Rabbit with a watch shouting 'Too late, too late!' Will we ever return?







12 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will (Original Post) Are_grits_groceries May 2012 OP
drone strikes dipsydoodle May 2012 #1
Anything one does against Al Queda is a recruitment tool quaker bill May 2012 #2
Not shooting at them ? dipsydoodle May 2012 #3
They nestle into "civilians" Cosmocat May 2012 #4
it is very easy to slap the coward label on somebody magical thyme May 2012 #9
This would be fairly traditional war marketing. quaker bill May 2012 #7
Yup. magical thyme May 2012 #10
The rule of law is so pre-9/11 MannyGoldstein May 2012 #5
The problem is that the term "terrorism" is just so vague that it could be interpreted JDPriestly May 2012 #6
Dumb bombs, tank shells, and bullets quaker bill May 2012 #8
So many good questions, so few answers. sad sally May 2012 #11
One of the worst parts is that David Axelrod Are_grits_groceries May 2012 #12

quaker bill

(8,224 posts)
2. Anything one does against Al Queda is a recruitment tool
Tue May 29, 2012, 06:43 AM
May 2012

They are the cutting edge for martyrdom. If the great satan will not go to them and blow them up, they will seek out the great satan and blow themselves up. Not shooting at them does not appear to improve their mood.

Cosmocat

(14,564 posts)
4. They nestle into "civilians"
Tue May 29, 2012, 07:12 AM
May 2012

in great part for this reason.

Because they are loathsome cowards, first off.

But, a side benefit is that they get to use it to their advantage when innocent people die.

AND, even if the only three people killed or injured in anyway were hard core jahidists just dying to kill some capatalists, their propaganda would be that three completely innocent people were killed.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
9. it is very easy to slap the coward label on somebody
Tue May 29, 2012, 08:21 AM
May 2012

when warfare is so totally asymmetrical.

If they gathered together someplace apart from society, the people they consider cowards would send in their drones and blow them up in one fell swoop without ever seeing the face, never mind look into the eyes, of their enemy.

Do you really expect a small group of protesters to leave themselves so vulnerable to the empire that is ravaging their customs, their lives, their lands?

The "first world" empires have been so totally rapacious in our exploitation of the rest of the world's resources.

Who, really, is the coward here?

quaker bill

(8,224 posts)
7. This would be fairly traditional war marketing.
Tue May 29, 2012, 07:59 AM
May 2012

It was just as useful when we were using ground troops, tanks, and helicopters. The loss of women and children always serves as a great "causus belli" to whatever extent it happens.

I would strongly prefer we stop shooting at everyone. But the notion that we should do this because they would lose marketing leverage is a truly weak argument. Beyond this, there is little evidence that they would stop recruiting and attacking even if we did.

The best choice is to get out of there, fully and permanently.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
10. Yup.
Tue May 29, 2012, 08:26 AM
May 2012

All we really needed to do was truly secure our borders. Not by groping the diapers of the babies, elderly, and infirm, but by inspecting the millions of tons of cargo that comes in with only tiny fraction looked at.

And reduce their instigation by minimizing our impact on their countries and customs. Shrinking our footprint and by having ended our dependence on them 3 decades ago when we had our first heads up.

So many things could have been prevented, but weren't.

uh=oh. thunderstorm. bye.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
5. The rule of law is so pre-9/11
Tue May 29, 2012, 07:13 AM
May 2012

Terra everywhere.

Terra! Terra!

Can't trust courts anymore - most of them administer Sharia law.

I think that some people don't trust our President's execution picks because he's black.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
6. The problem is that the term "terrorism" is just so vague that it could be interpreted
Tue May 29, 2012, 07:14 AM
May 2012

by some president or Congress down the line to include anyone who disagrees with them.

That's how tyrannies are created -- by authorizing lethal force, great force against a vaguely defined, vast threat that could exist anywhere, anytime and take any identity. Pretty soon, a Stalin or a Hitler comes out of a wormhole somewhere and starts exterminating or imprisoning people for arbitrary reasons.

And yet, at this time, we appear to face a threat. So, what to do?

I don't think we have found the answer yet. But just sending out drones or agents to spy and kill all over the place, in and out of our own country is not going to work out. It's too expensive and will eventually result in either extreme repression of many innocent people and resulting economic paralysis (USSR and NAZI Germany) or an insurrection of some sort. Neither outcome is what is intended, I am sure. Neither outcome will be good for anyone in the US. Neither outcome is acceptable.

What to do?

It's a tough one. But the drone strikes are a serious violation of human rights because the victims, the accused, have no chance to prove their innocence -- and most likely some, perhaps most or all of them are innocent or just foolish. We cannot really be certain that those we target as terrorists really are or that we miss real terrorists. There is no way to be 100% safe.

sad sally

(2,627 posts)
11. So many good questions, so few answers.
Tue May 29, 2012, 05:20 PM
May 2012

Will these immoral illegal actions that have taken the US empire deeper into that black hole ever end? 'Fraid not...we're doomed.

For some gawd awful reason President Obama seems to be under the notion that he has to be meaner, more aggressive and more secretive in his pursuit of terror that Bush was. And the citizens of this scared country (that's us) don't need to have any pesky investigative journalists looking into any wrongdoings - either before or after Jan 2009.

Just believe that any man tall enough to wear long pants in countries like Pakistan or Yemen are probably either al Qaeda or wanna'-be's or know somebody who is or wants to be; thus, they must be droned - blown to ever-lovin' bits - in pieces so ugly even their mommas won't be able to identify them.

When families of those wrongly killed - like Waziristan resident Karim Khan, who's son and brother were killed by a hellfire (ain't that an appropriate name?) drone in 2009 - and his pictures proved it, what do you suppose happened to him? Why he was kidnapped and murdered. End of story...

President Obama ordered his first drone strike on Pakistan three days after he was sworn in, which struck the home of a tribal elder - not an al Qaeda militant. End of story...

Are_grits_groceries

(17,111 posts)
12. One of the worst parts is that David Axelrod
Tue May 29, 2012, 05:53 PM
May 2012

sits in these meetings. He needs his political adviser sitting there to what? Does he let somebody live if the death will create too much of a stink? Axelrod may be a very wise man, but having him there is not a wise decision.

What a fricking mess!



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