Found On DU, As An Opinion Of FDR... Usually Considered In The Top 5 Of U.S. Presidents

[WillyT]

He was dictator lite, in that he didn't kill near as many people as the other guy. But, rounding up people just because of their countries of origin is plain wrong and it's disgusting. He also had some Germans (mostly single men) and Italians (not sure the demographic make up of this group) rounded up and they were put in different camps separated from their families, but the camps were somewhat nicer than the Japanese camps.

Really... four terms, forty years of Democrats holding the congress...

Which helped us up to this point ???

You think ANY progress would have happened WITHOUT FDR ???



And we say we support Democrats here...

[MisterP]

1. none of that's false: we have to learn how to handle contradictions growing up

[merrily]

3. FDR was a dictator? Really? In what political universe is a elected United States President a

dictator?

The internments were heinous, no Democrat would argue with that. But, dictator? Didn't kill as many as the other guy? HItler? 12 million civilians starved, gassed, used for human experiments? FDR was the lite version of that? In what universe?

[WillyT]

4. Yeah... He Was Widely Hated By The Public...

Ed Clark—The LIFE Picture Collection/Getty Image

[mucifer]

5. It probably felt that way to the Japanese Americans in the detention camps.

[merrily]

6. Did you read my post? I said the internments were heinous. But, what evidence do you cite for

those interned felt as though 12 million of them had been starved, gassed, operated on for experimentation, etc? I'd really like to know your basis for that comment because I think you pulled it straight out of your ear.

[Rose Siding]

12. Some of the 750 on the SS St Louis ended up feeling that way

I adore FDR but being human, and powerful, he did some crappy stuff too. (Eleanor was the giant in that family, imo)

Every "hero" is human and faulted.

[merrily]

13. They should not have been turned away, but FDR did not starve them or gas them.

Every "hero" is human and faulted.

No one said he was not human and "heinous" is faulting him severely. Please.

[merrily]

74. Because they probably ended up in one of Hitler's camps. No one said FDR was perfect or not human or

without fault. To the contrary, I've repeatedly posted on this thread just the opposite.

Please stop with the straw men.

[1939]

2. Take the good with the bad

LBJ gave us the Civil Rights Act, Medicare, and the Great Society.

LBJ escalated the Vietnam War to over 500,000 troops.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. A party that has embraced the ideology of Thatcher and Reagan has to demonize FDR.

[WillyT]

8. Yep... Especially If Your Desire To Elect Thatcher... Version 2.0...

[hifiguy]

10. Indeed.

[geek tragedy]

26. Factually false hyperbole re: Democrats being Reaganites

That seriously whitewashes just how awful, and how radical, Reagan and his ideology were and are.

[Warren Stupidity]

47. In his own words.

In Their Own Words: Obama on Reagan
“I don’t want to present myself as some sort of singular figure. I think part of what’s different are the times. I do think that, for example, the 1980 election was different. I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that, you know, Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not.


"He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like, you know, with all the excesses of the 60s and the 70s, and government had grown and grown, but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people just tapped into -- he tapped into what people were already feeling, which was, we want clarity, we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing.

"I think Kennedy, 20 years earlier, moved the country in a fundamentally different direction. So I think a lot of it just has to do with the times.

"I think we are in one of those times right now, where people feel like things as they are going, aren't working, that we’re bogged down in the same arguments that we’ve been having and they’re not useful. And the Republican approach I think has played itself out.

"I think it’s fair to say that the Republicans were the party of ideas for a pretty long chunk of time there over the last 10, 15 years, in the sense that they were challenging conventional wisdom. Now, you’ve heard it all before. You look at the economic policies that are being debated among the presidential candidates, it’s all tax cuts. Well, we’ve done that. We’ve tried it. It’s not really going to solve our energy problems, for example…so some of it’s the times.”

Obama, in his own words, praising Reagan.

[geek tragedy]

50. a rather facile, perhaps deliberate, misinterpretation of what Obama said.

“I don’t want to present myself as some sort of singular figure. I think part of what’s different are the times. I do think that, for example, the 1980 election was different. I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that, you know, Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not.

This is not praise of Reagan's policies, this is an accurate observation that he changed the trajectory of the country. Saying he changed the country's direction doesn't mean he moved it in the right direction.

"He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like, you know, with all the excesses of the 60s and the 70s, and government had grown and grown, but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people just tapped into -- he tapped into what people were already feeling, which was, we want clarity, we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing.

That was Reagan's political approach. He played off cultural resentments on the part of white working class voters towards hippies and minorities. The government had pretty much alienated every segment of society by then--rightwingers hated Great Society and the civil rights actions, leftwingers hated the Vietnam war. Americans were down on the government, down on their own country. Jimmy Carter famously spoke of 'malaise.'

I think we are in one of those times right now, where people feel like things as they are going, aren't working, that we’re bogged down in the same arguments that we’ve been having and they’re not useful. And the Republican approach I think has played itself out.

"I think it’s fair to say that the Republicans were the party of ideas for a pretty long chunk of time there over the last 10, 15 years, in the sense that they were challenging conventional wisdom. Now, you’ve heard it all before. You look at the economic policies that are being debated among the presidential candidates, it’s all tax cuts. Well, we’ve done that. We’ve tried it. It’s not really going to solve our energy problems, for example…so some of it’s the times.”

Obama here is referring to another fairly mundane phenomenon of American politics--nothing hurts a party like success. Once parties have success in enacting their agenda, they turn to defending and consolidating their past successes rather than looking forward. They get complacent and more invested in protecting the status quo than in changing it.

Here, he is arguing for a break from Republican policies.

And, context. If you actually read what he's writing, he's making the case for himself as the person who's the right one to change the direction of the country, he's running against not only the last 20 years of Republican policies (Reagan, Bush, Bush) but also Bill Clintonism (Hillary).

What you don't see in there is any endorsement of Reagan's policies or ideology.

[Scootaloo]

51. Here geek, read up...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_Democrat

"Reagan Democrat" is an actual political term.

[geek tragedy]

53. Yes, I know who Reagan Democrats are.

Culturally conservative, white working class voters.

Guys like Jim Webb.

If that sounds like Barack Obama to you . . .

[Scootaloo]

55. I didn't say anything about Obama

[geek tragedy]

56. Ok. nt

[geek tragedy]

9. He was a great president, but he was not the messiah.

While the statement you quoted was over the top and absurd, we do ourselves a disservice if we overlook the complexities, flaws, and nuances involved with the man and his record.

I've seen people here defend the internment of Japanese-Americans, because FDR did it. That is all kinds of fucked up.

[merrily]

14. Who said he was the messiah? Is the straw man special thread?

I've seen people here defend the internment of Japanese-Americans, because FDR did it.

Links? More than one, since you said people. I've never seen that.

we do ourselves a disservice if we overlook the complexities, flaws, and nuances involved with the man and his record.

Good thing no one on this thread did that then.

[geek tragedy]

21. You've missed the whole "FDR Democrat" revivalism

here?

The constant complaints that Obama, Hillary, the DNC in general aren't like FDR?

That Democrats lose elections and the party lost its soul after the FDR coalition fell apart?

That the DNC needs to return to the party of FDR?

Or people freaking out when FDR's troubling record on race and civil rights is raised?

I'll try to hunt down links for you.

[merrily]

22. Got those links I requested in my previous posts by any chance?

Cause, no, i never saw what your first post claimed "people" posted.

Let's deal with that before we try to leap to 14 other subjects.

[geek tragedy]

33. here's a few after 5 minutes of searching:

I don't consider interning the Japanese an act of bigotry but of fear.

Funny they never interned the ethnic Japanese in Hawaii. We also had POW camps across the USA that held Germans in them. He may not moved as quickly on civil rights as you may like today, but it was the times. Also his New Deal policies included all poor people not just white people.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3902083

Yes, at a time where black people were still considered less than human.

In general, across the board. Yeah, it was a personal failing for him and for 90% of white America at the time. It just wasn't a priority for most people back then. You can scorn him for having the basic values of everyone at the time he lived and ignore the qualities those of us want to see in a modern President if you want. By all means, have at it.

I wish we had a cross between FDR's evonomic/labor policies and MLK's social policies. Basically, we need Bernie Sanders. Then we'd be cooking with gas.

Henry Wallace is who we needed to succeed FDR. We really got screwed on that one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3902207

Or,

he was responsible for the Japanese internment camps in WWII. FFS all participants in WWII both AXIS and the allies had internment camps and usually the inmates were innocent and only there because of their nationality or ethnicity. No FDR made a mistake there, but it was because of the times.

I had a Dutch Indonesian friend who had been interned in a POW camp with her mother and sister by the Japanese when she was only four years old in Indonesia. They killed her father. Believe me, the Japanese camps were no picnic either.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5929753

Ironically, many of the same people who praise FDR to high heaven also indulged in wildly inaccurate conspiracy theories re: the NDAA--which explicitly said it didn't authorize the detention of any American citizens, and which has been ruled by a federal appeals court to not authorize the detention of a single American citizen. Remember that stupid fauxtroversy?

[merrily]

35. Sorry, I'm not seeing the language that says internment was okay. That was your claim, that

internment was defended because FDR did it. I'm seeing it was a mistake, a failing, that it was done more from fear than bigotry (don't agree, but different issue), etc. I'm not seeing anything that says internment was okay.

[geek tragedy]

37. making excuses and denying it was bigotry are forms of defense/apologism.

Here's another example of denialism re: FDR's civil rights record

Really? You consider FDR to be worse on Civil Liberties than Bush/Cheney? What laws were passed

by FDR such as the Patriot Act eg? Or do you agree with those Bush/Cheney anti-Constitutional laws? How many people did FDR kidnap from other countries and place in torture chambers here and in secret locations around the world? Of course they were 'just terrorist Muslims' so I guess that's okay right?

And Reagan, know anything about Central and South America under Reagan? Assuming you do, can you provide any examples of FDR policies that come anywhere close to Reagan's?

Nixon, in what way was FDR worse than Nixon, know anything about Vietnam, spying on Americans etc?

I'm not at all surprised by your response, not in the least btw. You never fail to prove me right and I appreciate that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3062866

Apparently to some people establishing racist concentration camps for American citizens, overseeing a system of whites-only primaries within the Democratic party, and enabling the KKK to lynch African-Americans wasn't as bad as the PATRIOT ACT. Because FDR.

[merrily]

38. Sorry, no. Your claim was false. Speculating about the reason for internment does not =

saying internment was okay. Nothing you provided said internment was okay.

I appreciate the links, but they did not prove your claim at all.

[geek tragedy]

41. So when people say cops shot Tamir Rice because of fear

instead of racism, that's not defending them?

[merrily]

44. What does Tamir Rice have to do with this? You claimed "people" had defended internment because

it was FDR who had done it. Your links do not show one person saying, well, internment was necessary or a good idea or even excusable. Not one.

[geek tragedy]

54. People are denying it was about bigotry.

Also, there are forms of rhetorical defense other than straightforward justification. There's minimization, deflection, creating excuses, etc.

Holocaust revisionists use all of those techniques.

[geek tragedy]

69. Here you go.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7359978

[geek tragedy]

70. And another.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7359824

[WillyT]

43. So Geek... Two Questions...

1) Who's considered the Greatest Democratic President in the last 100 years by historians?

2) Who do YOU consider the Greatest Democratic President in the last 100 years ?

Just trying to get a feel.

[geek tragedy]

48. FDR deserves to be known as the greatest.

But, just like his sins were a product of his times, and his very imperfect but large coalition, so were his triumphs.

People need to look past the individual presidents, and look at the larger trends in society.

The Democrats didn't abandon the FDR coalition and values; the FDR coalition broke apart due to race. White working class voters joined the Republicans because the Democrats started advocating for civil rights. Nobody hated hippies like white, blue collar men.

[WillyT]

49. That... Is True... And Was A Republican Masterpiece In The End...

"The Southern Strategy"

[geek tragedy]

57. LBJ said Democrats had lost the south for a generation

after the civil rights act.

He turns out to have been an optimist.

[WillyT]

15. Totally Agree... But His Support Of The Working-Class Was Fairly New... And Very Effective...

Just wish we had that today... oh right, we do.

[geek tragedy]

23. FDR had the political luxury of enjoying the support of white racists

in the South.

It was a radically different electorate. Working class white people now worry about government helping black people too much more than they worry about plutocrats stealing the future.

[WillyT]

27. The Racists Weren't Only In The South... Most Of The Country Was Racist...

Democracy... you get the government you deserve.

But... it started to change after that... no ???

[geek tragedy]

34. Point being, FDR played ball with the white supremacists instead of challenging white supremacy.

Politicians are a product of their time and the people. FDR was, so is Obama. Which is why it's mystifying to have people look backwards and hold up FDR as the example by which we must judge future presidents.

For every one person who makes an unhinged comment about FDR, how many times do we see someone posting FDR's quote about "I welcome their hatred?" as if that's really an option in today's political environment?

[WillyT]

36. C'Mon Geek... In Today's Politics, We Get Their Hatred Whether We Want/Deserve It Or Not...

Once the people saw that he had their self-interests in mind, each election got easier.

Funny how that works.

[geek tragedy]

39. Except that's exactly opposite of how it happened.

FDR's % of the popular vote, by election

1932: 57.4%
1936: 60.8%
1940: 54.7%
1944: 53.4%

Note that the Democrats got absolutely hosed in the 1942 off-year elections, losing 45 seats, holding the majority only because of gerrymandering.

And those percentages are with him rolling up huge margins amongst the KKK crowd down south. If 80% of them had voted against him . . .

[merrily]

28. Like the man weeping in the photo?

[gollygee]

11. We can't ignore Japanese camps just because FDR did it

He did good, and he did bad, just like most human beings. He was a human being, flawed like the rest of us. Hero worship does no one any favors.

[WillyT]

16. Agreed... But Calling Him A "Better Dictator" Is Beyond The Pale...

[merrily]

17. How is calling the internment heinous ignoring the internment?--and, btw, it was not only the

Japanese. It was Germans and Italians as well, though in smaller numbers, which may (or may not--I haven't studied it) have had to do with who lived on the West Coast or in other sensitive areas.

[NutmegYankee]

40. The government just couldn't move the Germans and Italians.

Way too many on the east coast alone to move. Beyond that, the country was heavily German in population. In the end, people with German ancestry got top jobs in the war effort, like Eisenhower and Nimitz.

[merrily]

42. Well, also, we had not been attacked from the East.

[NutmegYankee]

45. It didn't take long.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Happy_Time

The Germans even laid mines in NYC harbor, causing it to be closed for a few days to clear them.

[merrily]

46. Thank you. I didn't know that. I learned something on DU today. That always makes me happy. nt

[merrily]

18. Wow. Is this getting spammed/trolled/strawmanned! A effing mazing.

Dude, it's as though they're going out of their way to prove the truth of your OP!

[WillyT]

19. Well Now... FDR Is Not The Model The NeoLiberals Want Anymore... That's Why Bernie Scares Them...

Gonna Mess Up The Political Gravy-Train, Dontcha Know ???

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[merrily]

20. You can take a nap. The thread is proving itself.

[Doctor_J]

24. du is saturated with reaganites these days.

They have completely destroyed the party by embracing all of the republican policies put forth by Obama, Bill Clinton, Mrs Clinton, and the entire turd way.

[pampango]

25. No president is perfect. Not FDR. Not JFK. Not LBJ. Not Obama.

When you compare them to most other presidents they look very good. FDR in particular with the New Deal and all the liberal changes it brought.

[Kingofalldems]

29. Link please. I believe you but would like to know

who posted this.

[WillyT]

31. Might Be Able To Find The Tread...

Here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251779603



Blows my mind.

[Kingofalldems]

32. Thanks.

[GeorgeGist]

30. Seriously lame dude.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251815906

[treestar]

52. So that justified the Japanese internment?

You know I thought we were supposed to criticize Presidents. Hold their feet to the fire.

[Scootaloo]

58. Since when do you think that?

Didn't you go on a rant about how gay people "have enough rights already" when they challenged Obama on the issue of marriage?

[treestar]

60. So that justifies the internment of the Japanese?

by FDR? Where was FDR on gay rights? What did he do?

[Scootaloo]

61. I'm asking when you decided it was okay to challenge presidents

[treestar]

63. It's always OK to challenge Presidents

Who said you can't? We have freedom of speech in this country.

[Scootaloo]

64. You had nothing but rage and bigotry when GLBT peopoe challenged Barack Obama

Remember?

Though to be honest, you expressed the same rage when people challenged obama over his 2013 effort to attack Syria. No bigotry on that, but the demographics were pretty wide at the time. nd now, you express the same snarling rage at anyone who doesn't fawn over a presidential candidate.

"Challenge presidents" is a very new thing for you, Treestar. And as far as I've seen, it only applies when expressing the same hatred against FDR that I could find on FreeRepublic.

Do you only believe in challenging presidents that have been dead for a really long time?

[treestar]

67. I can challenge Presidents

I did Bush a lot. I also defend Obama from unreasonable criticism. Never said the person could not make the criticism.

It's got to be burdensome to carry so much resentment around for so many years though.

[Scootaloo]

68. Yeah, having a memory can be something o a burden

But I don't envy people who earnestly live like history started just yesterday.

[Maedhros]

59. It's not accurate to describe FDR as a dictator, since he was elected legally.

However, the point is taken that FDR enacted some heinous policies regarding detention of American citizens for political reasons. If we are being honest, there is no soft-pedaling the internment of political prisoners.

But we don't like being honest. We like to ignore the bad acts of our heroes.

[Major Hogwash]

62. Great post, Willy.

My parents lived through those times, my father served in WWII, and my mother grew up in a rural area just 2 miles north from one of the Japanese internment camps in Colorado.
Constantly bitching about FDR's policies became the genesis for the creation of the John Birch society after the Korean War.
People who complain about FDR were NOT alive at that time, and so, they do NOT remember the horror caused by the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Just ignore those people that post here.
They have nothing to say, no veritas, no integrity.

[ecstatic]

65. I'm confused. Aren't you a major Pres. Obama critic who often

ignores positive accomplishments to focus on small defeats and setbacks? I find this OP super ironic! The correct answer is that no politician is perfect, and no president can do everything by him or herself. It's that simple. Keeping everything in perspective is key.

[blue neen]

71. +1000

Agree with everything you say in your post.

[Nye Bevan]

66. Why can't I think that FDR was a great president (one of the very best) AND that

the interning was disgusting?

[Waiting For Everyman]

72. Pissants trying to shit on giants.

Critiquing history based on the present is a meaningless head-trip.

[WillyT]

73. Yep...