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Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:41 AM

Adults that spoil kids aggravate me

My goodness, I never cease to be amazed at how some parents think their kids are God's answer to the planet. This applies mostly (I'd say almost exclusively) to the parents that have the brattiest kids on the planet.

Yesterday I had to spend some time with one of these kids because the mother felt that her child is so delightful, that surely all adults WANTED to have her child in their midst interrupting everything the adults said, and trying to break everything in the house and filthy it up. The adults wanted to make a run for it. That kid was loud, boisterous, not particularly bright, and (as if all the rest were not enough), NOT fascinating in the least. What the mom felt was grown up behavior on her child's part was merely a tremendous capacity for being obnoxious and unpleasant.

However, this mom was oohing and aahing about her kid (heck, who else was going to ooh and aah for this walking, talking obnoxia?), and trying to elicit our oohs and aahs, which were not forthcoming. I plastered what I refer to as, 'the look of the insane' smile on my face and pretended I was a robot. No oohs and aahs would come from me.

Why do parents (GENERALLY MOMS) inflict this on other adults? These moms behave as if they wanted to be your friend, but then by golly, they're HELL-BENT on you loving their bratty, spoiled kid. I think these moms don't really want to have friends. They just want to have an AUDIENCE for their bratty kids.

Since I'm on a rant about adults that do this, here's a tiny list of these adults that aggravate me. Let me know if any of you out there agree with me on this:

-Parents that include their kids in everything, adult conversations, bring kids to your dinner that you’ve made very clear is a grown ups dinner, etc.

-Parents that allow their kids to interrupt conversations between them and another adult

-Parents that allow the kids to run and answer the phone every time and waste your time talking trash, when the reason you called is to talk to the adult, not entertain the kid

-Parents that allow their kids to sit and listen to adult conversations

-Parents that bring their kids into the office and don’t keep them from bugging the heck out of you

-Parents that stop a whole huge line at the supermarket or anywhere at all because they want their child to talk to the employee taking orders or checking out

-Parents that bring kids to your house and let them make a frikkin’ mess everywhere and touch every single thing, even BREAK your things.

-Parents that insist on their kids performing for you, and are seeking for you to applaud like a trained seal no matter how horrific the performance was

-Parents that go on for endless hours about their kids’ accomplishments

-Parents that side with their kids against teachers and, well, just about everybody

-Parents that let their kids behave and run like animals through stores

-Parents that behave as if their kid were God's answer to the world, and insist you acknowledge that

WAKE UP, PARENTS! STOP TRYING TO GET ME TO ADORE YOUR KIDS!

Okay, now that I got that out of my system, all I want to add is that I think treating kids like some sort of perfect beings, or royalty, and putting them first 24/7 is the perfect recipe for creating narcissistic and perhaps sociopathic adults.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:48 AM

1. Also, they need to stay off my grass.

THIS ball? It's mine now, little man.

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Response to Robb (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:50 AM

2. LOL! I'm with you there. These parents think our property belongs to their KIDS! nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:56 AM

8. Children should be seen, but not heard.

They also have too many toys. And none of them can sit up straight long enough to stop squirming.

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Response to Robb (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:19 AM

33. To add: sometimes they behave

At the promise of some ribbon candy.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 03:59 PM

462. People are coming into your house without your permission?

Maybe you should call the cops, or invest in one of these:

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Response to Robb (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 08:19 PM

259. I taught for 27 years and I wish I could relate to you all the parental bitching

I had to listen to in fifth grade about behavior not corrected young. This isn't about some old person bitching. This is the person they are talking about that someday will be taking care of you, doing something you need and if they don't give a shit then you will pay. Manners and good behavior transmitted through the reasoning and nonnarcissim of parents will matter. You will be the recepient of every dipshit parent who thought their kid was 'special'. Skoff if you want. Someday the ship comes in and we all pay for the fucking stupidity of way too many parents.

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #259)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 08:37 PM

267. You made a very good point. Parents of brats are often narcissistic,

obnoxious, self-absorbed, have a HUGE chip on their shoulder, and always think they (and their brats) are right, no matter who they hurt.

Many years ago, when I taught middle school, I found that kids who bullied other kids and behaved as if they'd been raised by wolves, often had parents who behaved the same way. I'd wager to say that oftentimes the behavior these kids exhibited was nothing more than mere emulation of the same behavior of the parents and the reassurance by their parents that their misbehavior simply rocked their world.

And you're right, they think their kids are incredibly special. In fact, they think their kids are entitled to beat up on other kids, destroy property, and do any damned thing they want.

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Response to roguevalley (Reply #259)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 01:43 AM

337. hmph

We already are...

Dubyah--I rest my case.

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Response to chervilant (Reply #337)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 01:24 PM

426. W is an excellent example of a BRAT that grew up without anyone stopping his stupid behavior nt

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Response to Robb (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 05:55 AM

360. Heh

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:51 AM

3. Could you tell us how you really feel about spoiled children?

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:53 AM

4. LOL! I guess it showed? :) nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:58 AM

12. This time of year is especially prone

to having proud parent inflict their children on us. On the other hand, my next door neighbors who have a 3 year old boy and a baby girl in arms, dropped by to drop off a tin of nice homemade cookies. The 3 year old is very polite and the baby gave me a big smile when I waggled my fingers at her. They're a lovely young couple, and their children are very pleasant to be around. The little boy sometimes wanders over when I'm working in the yard, and we always have a good conversation about whatever happens to interest him at the moment.

I like children. I don't like parents who turn their children into performing bears, though.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:59 AM

15. :) I don't mind kids, but oh my gosh, there's nothing worse than a brat!

I'd rather have Chinese water torture!

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 04:22 PM

181. I'd rather be around a bratty kid than a drunk adult.

To each his own.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #181)

Sun Jan 1, 2012, 02:41 AM

655. As someone who has worked at nightclubs and a sunday school class... I'll second that. n/t

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #15)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:30 AM

318. I'm a mom...

...and I have a lot of mom friends. I live in a suburb (population 60,000) and most of the people who live
here are families with children. People flock here because of the nice schools. I volunteer in the schools,
know a lot of people and my kids have grown up playing with and hanging out with lots of kids in the
community and in the neighborhood.

I must know hundreds of kids and I have to say---I have NEVER met ONE child who fits your horrible description. Also,
I've never experienced the lethal combination you describe--child from hell and enabling parent from hell.

While I do agree that any child acting the way you describe--would be irritating and pathetic, I'm a bit mystified
because I've never experienced anything like that. Sure, people are not perfect and neither is any child. However,
what you describe sounds like something from a cartoon.

I guess I'm chiming in here, because I don't want childless people or single people who don't have kids
and aren't married--to think that a large numbers of children act this way. Or that most parents would
be so oblivious and enable such bratty behavior.

Most kids and parents, in my experience, are just decent families who care about each other and enjoy
spending time together.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

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Response to CoffeeCat (Reply #318)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:53 AM

327. I've been one for over 20 years and I agree -- the only child I've ever seen

who might have been considered a brat -- if you didn't know his diagnosis -- was a child with ADHD and autism. And those poor parents -- and their son -- were doing their level best.

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Response to CoffeeCat (Reply #318)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 07:56 AM

369. I have to say I agree with you

I've seen a few kids like the OP description but mostly kids are great. I often wonder just what we do to them to make them grow up into fucked up adults.

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Response to CoffeeCat (Reply #318)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 09:17 AM

377. I haven't seen it often, but I've seen it

But, it's never agitated me to this degree. Good grief. But, I have always attempted to remind my kids that not every adult likes kids. Not every teacher, honestly likes kids. I've met one that didn't. It was just a job, and not one she enjoyed.

As parents, we have to be careful about how we raise our children. I have an aunt who never had children, and who has never liked children. I don't even invite her to my house. My children are polite and well mannered. But, to be honest...she's really not a nice person.

Now, that I think about it. The only people I know that really don't like children...weren't very nice people. So, really, it may be they didn't like people, but especially children.

It makes sense.

Children are often the center of attention, whether you want them to be or not. Its a self centered period of life. But someone like my aunt ALWAYS wants to be the center of attention. So, she wouldn't appreciate sharing the spotlight. She's never left this period of life, I guess.

But, that list would work for her, altered a bit.

Stay off MY lawn. (that one is funny...she says it, but because she's mean, she has to say it to kids near her lawn...no one actually visits, and no one would dare lose a ball there. She would keep it.)

Now, SHE annoys me...

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Response to CoffeeCat (Reply #318)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 02:05 PM

437. Not to mention the highly popular 'spoiled brat epidemic' meme circulating amongst the hard right.

Honestly, about the only truly bratty children I've seen, were either abused and/or neglected, and/or had truly assholish parents: If you & Sarah want a really good historical example, think of the white kids who threw a hissy fit in Little Rock when the National Guard helped ensure the enrollment of black kids back in '57. Now THOSE kids, were real spoiled brats.

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Response to CoffeeCat (Reply #318)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 06:47 PM

541. IMO the number of rotten kids with rotten parents are greatly exaggerated.

Most of the kids I run into are hilarious, even when they are being a little naughty. I think "some" people think kids should be "seen and not heard", which is BS.

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Response to CoffeeCat (Reply #318)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 10:27 AM

591. Then you have been most fortunate.

Between my personal life and then having been in retail management over the years, OMG you have been living in some sort of Utopia many of us would gladly pay to get into.

One fine example is my niece. Her mom is extremely acquisitive and, of course so is the child now. For years that child would behave very badly, completely ruining events and the mother would sit there with a weird smile as if to say "Isn't she adorable?". Apparently it has been discovered that when a little girl tells strangers she is saving up for some thing or other, they tend to think it's cute and hand over a little change to help with the saving. How do I know this? Last summer I had her for a day and we had lots of errands to run. There wasn't a stranger she didn't pull that routine on. After the third solicitation I forbade her from doing it anymore while she was with me and then I had a talk with her mother the next morning about this trained monkey routine. Talk about setting that kid up for trouble! Oh you're saving up, little girl? Come over to my car, I have a bunch of money I can give you...

and that child is one of many I know who's parents (usually mom) has told them just once too often how very, very special they are.

When my kids were little I could have friends over for coffee and we could have discussions. My childless friends often marveled at how we could sit and talk without constant interruption and chaos.

In my retail experience, the calm, well behaved child was always the exception rather than the rule. You must live somewhere where the water has something very special in it or something.

Julie

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 04:21 PM

180. You correctly identified the parents as the problem.

Children will always test limits and when given none they can cause havoc. It's not a good situation for anyone, especially the child. The child will grow up not knowing where the boundaries are between social and antisocial behavior.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #180)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:06 PM

202. This is true. And kids only learn what they see, hear, are taught from their surroundings, and what

they are not corrected about. They are blank slates. The rest gets written on that slate by what they experience.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #202)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 03:52 PM

455. No, they are not blank slates.

Not by a long shot.

Genetics probably has far more to do with behavior than what any parent can do.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 07:20 AM

365. LOL

TOO FUNNY but yes i agree

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:54 AM

5. Do you have kids?

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Response to trumad (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:01 AM

18. You caught me there. Nope. I chose at 20-ish to NOT have kids.

I don't want kids. Not my own, not adopted, not flown in by the stork. None.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:03 AM

21. I ask because sometimes having kids changes perceptions about how kids act.

I've always said that bad parents are worse than WMD's.

Imagine if Hitler and Saddam had great parents.

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Response to trumad (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:04 AM

24. True. Anyone can have kids. That's one incredibly scary thing! nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 07:49 PM

252. Well, not everyone.

One lady I met that would have made a great parent was infertile. But she became a marvelous elementary school teacher.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:58 AM

48. If you don't have kids, then you really don't have

much room to talk. It's a lot easier to criticize parenting from the sidelines when you've never been a parent. And it's really, REALLY aggravating to those of us who ARE parents to hear such criticism from people who, frankly, don't know what the hell they're talking about because they've never had children.

And I'm sorry that we don't keep our children locked up in their rooms in our houses so that you and other child free adults can have the planet to yourselves.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:35 PM

67. So, I have a child and I agree with her


There is a certain amount of politeness and self-disciple that should be taught. If you really love your kids you teach it. If they're just a thing to show, you don't.

Politeness and self-disciple are forms of respect, not only to themselves, but to others.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #67)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:52 PM

105. Did you read her whole post? She mixes up misbehavior and perfectly normal behavior

that many parents encourage -- like answering the phone, listening quietly to adults conversing, interacting with sales people behind the counter, etc.

If you really love your children you are going to teach them how to socialize in the world.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #105)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:29 PM

130. I can think of a couple of cirumstances that would not be normal

Would you talk about sex in front of your kids? Personal things? My parents argued about money in front of me all the time. Made me VERY insecure about it. Not a conversation you want to have in front of kids.

Some kids answer the phone and go on and on and on, when the person is trying to say they want to speak to an adult.

Socializing is good, but "any and all" socializing is not good.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #130)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:06 AM

308. Of course there are circumstances where children don't belong.

But the OP was making blanket judgments which were not appropriate.

Some kids might take too long on the phone -- so do some adults. And some adults ask children questions that feel very nosy and intrusive. Should we write long rants about spoiled adults?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #308)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 07:20 PM

546. Your post makes no sense

We write long rants about spoiled adults all the time around here.

Any Republican is a perfect example.

In 1989, Bruce McIntosh coined the term the "spoiled child syndrome". The syndrome is characterized by "excessive, self-centered, and immature behavior". It includes lack of consideration for other people, recurrent temper tantrums, an inability to handle the delay of gratification, demands for having one's own way, obstructiveness, and manipulation. McIntosh attributed the syndrome to "the failure of parents to enforce consistent, age-appropriate limits", but others, such as Aylward, note that temperament is probably a contributory factor.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #546)

Fri Dec 30, 2011, 11:25 PM

648. I'm not sure what my point is. but --

I have a daughter. SHe is now 18. She is very much her own person. And she was a very difficult child. She seemed to be spoiled -- she is an only child and probably is spoiled, to a degree --and she was incredibly stubborn. No "time out" ever worked on her. On a couple of occasions I locked her or us into a room until she stopped crying, and she just never stopped. It would go on for hours. Hours. She never would give in, never stop crying.

Now, she's 18, and she apologizes for the way she used to be. She says, "One day I realized what a brat I was. I'm so sorry for what I put you through!"

Now, where did she get that? From us? Did she just not hear us for those years? Were we terrible parents? Did she just mature on her own? I don't know.

But she was always completely her own person.

I would say, still, today, you cannot make her do anything she doesn't want to or doesn't agree to, in principle, in some way. She spends hours on Reddit, arguing with "Christians" -- she is an avowed atheist and loves Richard Dawkins; not something she learned from me. Tonight, we were visited by a couple of Mormons who brought her a Bible and a Book of Mormon, because she wanted those books, so she could read them and refer to them. She stood in the door and talked to them for hours. They are coming back to stand in the door for hours more on Sunday! She enjoys the discussion with someone she disagrees with!

Sorry, I've gone on for too long. There's that doting parent. But I don't think you can just plop kids down into one box or another, or into this category or that. They may seem spoiled and it may be that they are determined. Or it may be the opposite, I suppose. My daughter has simply always been the most determined, single-minded, immovable human I have ever known. And now she is more mature than she was, and is very sorry about the trouble she caused. But she is still quite single-minded, only now she writes philosophy essays that I cannot imagine ever writing, much less in high school. She just takes everything apart down to the last little shred of whatever....

Yeah, she was very, very difficult, and frequently quite obnoxious. And now she is very much a fully formed individual with a mind of her own.

I think such a person at a very young age might indeed be kind of obnoxious.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #105)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:54 PM

150. That was one part I did not understand. When I was young

, (not a little little kid but in middle school and high school) I would come home from school and sometimes my mother would be having coffee with one of the neighbors. I liked to sit at the table and listen to them talk. I didn't jump in the conversation or be obnoxious or anything. It never occurred to me that her friend might not have wanted me there.

But then again she was over after school hours what did she expect? I'm supposed to come home and go straight to my room because my mother has a friend over?

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Response to Maraya1969 (Reply #150)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:02 AM

306. It never bothered me when my friends' children thought our conversation was interesting enough

to listen to.

In fact, I found it flattering. And half of the time we were discussing politics and I was especially glad they were listening!

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #306)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 06:01 AM

361. Exactly

that complaint is a bit of a head scratcher.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #67)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:56 PM

108. "Parents that allow their kids to sit and listen to adult conversations " is ok with you? Since you

said you agree with her, I can only assume that "Parents that allow their kids to sit and listen to adult conversations" somehow doesn't teach "politeness and self-disciple"

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #108)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:31 PM

132. Sometimes conversations should only be between adults


I know from experience. I look at what my parents did, and do the opposite, on everything.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #132)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:33 PM

134. I doubt "on everything" but agree, we do learn from our parent's mistakes

and then we copy some and make our own.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #134)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:36 PM

136. I was being hyperbolic

But I did have some bad parents. Years of therapy proved that.

I should add, even though he wasn't a good parent, I love my dad. He tries.

My stepmother, I don't hate her anymore, she admitted that she made my childhood a hell.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #132)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:09 PM

204. I agree. There are adults that just don't understand why everyone is avoiding them, and it's

because they insist that other adults MUST partake in their kids' conversation as if the kids were adults, and join in the babysitting activity. Other adults didn't have the kids, and should not be forced to become part of the babysitting, nor obligated to have a conversation first with the kid that answers the phone, before they may be allowed to talk to the person they called for.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #204)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 01:40 AM

336. I think the kid who bothers to answer the phone -- rather than sending the adults

straight to voice mail -- should be appreciated, not condemned.

And if you are part of a group that includes parents and children, then conversing with children as people does not constitute babysitting. It's part of being a polite and caring human being.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #204)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 03:56 PM

459. No adult should be forced to participate in the upbringing of other kids.

On the other hand, I find adults that feel they have no duty to society, including the upbringing of the next generation, to be extremely annoying. They have chosen to disengage from the full community. There is nothing positive about that.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #132)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 07:05 PM

240. Okay, but on Christmas?

I mean jeez, it sounds like he was the only child at the dinner.

Was he supposed to sit alone at the kids table?

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #240)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 07:55 PM

254. To little information to determine

Whether it was a dinner, a family function, or whether it was the only child there.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #254)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 01:44 AM

338. We do know it was Christmas, and what loving parent would leave their child

home with a sitter at Christmas? And where would he find a sitter, if he wanted to?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #338)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 07:18 PM

545. I would have stayed home as a kid


You seem to be making all sort of assumptions.

If I made the same assumptions, based on my family, Christmas eve day was the day to spend with family. Christmas day was the day to play with all the toys Santa brought, so I didn't want to go anywhere, and if I was, it was against my will.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #254)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 02:44 AM

353. ah if it wasn't dinner that would change things?

and it was Christmas.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #353)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 07:17 PM

544. And?

You seem to be making all sort of assumptions.

If I made the same assumptions, based on my family, Christmas eve day was the day to spend with family. Christmas day was the day to play with all the toys Santa brought, so I didn't want to go anywhere, and if I was, it was against my will because I wanted to play with my new toys.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #544)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 09:14 PM

562. Clearly THIS family with THIS child didn't do that.

So what difference does it make that your parents might have left you with a babysitter?

But where did they find one?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #562)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 11:16 PM

575. My father probably would have stayed home

nowhere does it say that the dad was there.

Why are you so invested in defending spoiled brats?

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Response to Confusious (Reply #575)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 12:20 AM

579. I'm not. I'm invested in defending parents who do normal things

like letting their children answer the phone, talk to checkers at the supermarket, or listen to adults having conversations. The OP swept up a lot of normal childhood socialization in her vehement list of complaints about "spoiled" children.

She also acted like "brats" are a major problem in the world, while I rarely run into them. I am much more concerned about children like this little girl:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57349017/slain-ind-girls-grandfather-was-sex-offender/

Or this little girl:

http://bostonherald.com/news/national/northeast/view/2011_1228worst_feared_for_maine_tot_experts_cops_likely_focusing_on_foul_play

Or the children in this family:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sns-rt-texas-bodies-update-2n1e7bq09d-20111227,0,6140723.story

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Response to Confusious (Reply #132)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:24 AM

316. The OP implied that children are spoiled who EVER do that. n/t

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Response to Confusious (Reply #67)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:05 PM

200. I agree completely. nt

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:39 PM

68. I think her OP was pretty clear about the difference between parents in general and rude ones

If that's how you're parenting your kid off that checklist, then no, I really don't want to be around you or your kids.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #68)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:27 PM

90. "Parents that allow their kids to sit and listen to adult conversations" is about a rude child?

If I allow my child to sit quietly and listen to adult conversations, you don't want to be around me or my kids? The feeling is probably mutual.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #90)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 03:15 PM

158. I assumed "adult conversations" would be something about someone having a drinking problem....

....or getting a divorce or something like that. You wouldn't let your kid sit in on that, would you?

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #158)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 03:19 PM

160. I assumed "adult conversations" were conversations between adults. In which case I'd let my

kid sit in and learn about how adults converse and about the topic. Of course I didn't let me kid sit in on everything, but I took that as adult conversations, between adults.

Funny how we assume different things and see it very differently, isn't it? (serious, not snark)

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #160)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 03:28 PM

164. There's nothing wrong as long as those conversations don't take a dark turn

Maybe the fact that my parents were older and generally avoided unpleasent topics with company when I grew up was the difference. When the conversation turned to more serious family matters, they either excused themselves elsewhere, or had me go outside or to my room.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #164)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:09 PM

401. Exactly. And if a child insists on remaining with the adults, the adults are held to a child

audience conversation regardless of what they wish to talk about.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #160)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:04 PM

198. The rule at our house was "Keep quiet unless you know something about the subject."

That eliminated most extraneous comments, and was motivation to learn more about things we heard being discussed.

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Response to eridani (Reply #198)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 06:20 PM

234. The problem is that many think they know something when they don't know a thing.

Such a rule would never apply to them, and they talk without ceasing.

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Response to eridani (Reply #198)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 04:18 PM

470. Agreed, (and that would eliminate some on this thread from speaking of children.)

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #160)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 07:08 PM

241. I'm guessing the kid didn't want to hear her interpretation of the Kama Sutra either

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #90)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 01:57 PM

436. Really? Even if the conversation was for adults, like your friend's sex life issues?

 

Do you ever expect your child to entertain herself or are you two attached to the hip?

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Response to onion belt (Reply #436)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 04:13 PM

469. Not gonna argue with a poster who's posting privl has been revoked. Esp not one

who either hasn't or can't read the whole subthread.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #68)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 04:27 PM

184. I don't think you read her checklist carefully. Not all her points are reasonable.

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Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #68)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 01:46 AM

339. Then the feeling is mutual. I don't want to be around a person who thinks children

shouldn't listen quietly to adults, or answer the phone in their own homes, or talk to checkers in the store.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:56 PM

75. well the fact that the people without kids have to deal with your kids

and put up with your kids in public places gives us every right to speak-up
please teach your kids manors, respect, and where the proper place for loud voices and running around are appropriate I have rights too

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Response to ThomThom (Reply #75)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:24 PM

125. Childless people are more oft than not

rude arrogant people who think the world revolves around them and any disturbance is a personal affront to their pearl clutching sensibilities.

Seriously; idiot parents or haughty childess people. Which group is more insufferable and needs to get over themselves more?

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #125)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:26 PM

129. Idiot parents.

At least the childless don't generally ruin my dinners in nice restaurants. The world revolves around them QUIETLY at the next table.

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Response to distantearlywarning (Reply #129)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:57 PM

153. they've ruined dinners for me and your logic has a big hole in it

First off, I've had dinner spoiled by adults who insist on talking on cell phone, and/or who are drunk and obnoxious.

Your logic has a hole in that you emphasize "QUIETLY". A child sitting "QUIETLY" won't ruin your dinner any more than an adult sitting "QUIETLY" will. But to imply that all adults sit "QUIETLY" while children never do, that is a logic hole.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #153)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 03:09 PM

156. Not true.

The definition of "idiot parent" in this thread is a parent who lets their child be noisily and badly behaved in public. If the child was sitting quietly, then we wouldn't be talking about idiot parents anymore, we would be talking about non-idiot parents (because they have a nicely behaved child).

On the other hand, the insufferably child-free are presumably being quietly insufferable over there at their child-free table.

Hf the adult in question happens to be noisily talking on a cell phone then it no longer matters what their parental status is, they become idiot adults in general. And for the record, I don't like those either and think they also need to stay at home until they can learn some manners.

Or to sum it up: SHUT THE FUCK UP IN NICE RESTAURANTS! (This is really not as difficult a concept as people on DU always seem to think it is...)

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Response to distantearlywarning (Reply #156)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 03:13 PM

157. "Parents that allow their kids to sit and listen to adult conversations" is noisily, badly behaved

in public? Huh.

"the insufferably child-free are presumably being quietly insufferable over there at their child-free table" is the problem. Why presume that? Just as easy to presume they are arguing loudly, talking on cell phones, telling each other rude and bigotted stories, are drunk, etc. I like your last paragraph, it sums it up indeed.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #157)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 03:27 PM

163. You didn't read my post.

If someone

of any age

is being noisy in a restaurant, they need to go home until they can figure out how to be better behaved. If the person in question is a child, then the parent who is responsible for them needs to take them home and work with them on that behavior (because that is what parents do).

If we are talking about an adult who is behaving badly, it no longer matters whether they are child-free or not. They are simply badly behaved.

The original post asked whether idiot parents or child-free people were worse, not because the child-free have a tendency to talk noisily on cell phones, but because they are insufferable. Whereas idiot parents, by the definition of this thread, are accompanied by noisy children.

Child-free = may or may not be noisy, but only insufferable arrogance is part of the definition, not noise
Idiot parents = by definition noisy

Since I hate noise, and I don't give a damn whether someone is arrogant as long as it is done at someone else's table, I voted for idiot parents. But if we want to expand the taxonomy to include the "noisy childfree" and "non-idiot parents", then my ranking would be as follows, from best to worst:

1. Non-idiot parents and their well-behaved children (I like to see happy well-behaved children at restaurants)
2. The insufferably arrogant but quiet child-free (who cares if they're assholes as long as they're quiet over there where I don't have to hear about it)
3. Noisy child-free (at least you can sometimes tell them to simmer down without being accused of being Hitler The Child-Hater)
4. Idiot parents and their screaming, running-around children (it's already all been said by the OP)

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Response to distantearlywarning (Reply #156)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:13 PM

207. I'd forgotten all about how some parents allowed their kids to ruin an eating-out experience for

other people. That's a huge topic! One pays to eat out and some parents think it's adorable to have their kids ruin the thing for others. I've even seen parents of kids like this smile as if to say, "Oh aren't they something!?" Ahem!

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Response to distantearlywarning (Reply #156)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 07:29 PM

549. Yes, but no one is posting repeated OPs about rude adults.

They do so about a supposed rash of rude kids.

The hypocrisy is apparent.

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Response to distantearlywarning (Reply #129)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:57 AM

330. Not all children misbehave at restaurants, and not all adults do, either.

Only some adults get drunk and stumble around or talk loudly on their cell phones during dinner.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #125)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:53 PM

149. idiot parents

are more insufferable, and i say this as a foster mom to a wonderful , but occasionally challanging 7 year old. her mother is in and out of the county jail, and the girl was born in the womens' prison. i knew the grandmother from AA meetings....bad parenting echos down the generations.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #125)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 04:04 PM

173. Haughty childless people, of course.

Too many seem to think that people are born as full adults and that they shouldn't have to suffer the presence of anyone under 20, never mind that they're not the only people in the world and that SOMEONE has to be a child so that they can grow up and serve the scoffers in their old age.

Now, that's not to say that idiot parents aren't annoying, far from it. But given a choice I'll take them any day. At least they understand more what it's like to have children and be a parent, whereas childless people seem to think it's the easiest job in the world and have no fucking clue what they're talking about. That sure doesn't stop them from criticizing or advising, though.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #173)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 04:14 PM

179. I'm your worst nightmare

>At least they understand more what it's like to have children and be a parent, whereas childless people seem to think it's the easiest job in the world and have no fucking clue what they're talking about. That sure doesn't stop them from criticizing or advising, though.<

I was a nanny for over ten years. As a result of my experiences, I chose not to have children. I KNOW what it's like to deal with a child 24x7. You bet I'm going to speak up when someone else's child is doing something that's either injurious to me or to my property, and their "parent" is completely oblivious.

YOU have no idea what it's like to deal with the "well-meaning" prying of family and friends over one's reproductive status, or lack of it. It's frankly none of your business, but I could write a book on the crap we've fielded over the years: "It's different when they're your own," "I didn't know what love was until I had a baybeeeeee," "You'll never understand what it is to be a parent." Uh, I understood enough to choose NOT to undertake it. You'd best respect my choice in this matter as much as you demand respect of your own.

It's interesting that you believe we have no business "criticizing or advising" when we are essentially subsidizing a very expensive, private hobby.

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Response to Missy Vixen (Reply #179)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 04:26 PM

183. If you consider children a "hobby" then it's best that you don't

have them. And yes, it really IS different when they're your own and not someone else's for whom you're a glorified babysitter.

And you are not subsidizing SHIT. Those children will grow up to be your doctors, nurses, lawyers, accountants, customer service reps, store clerks, contractors you call when you have a maintenance emergency, workers whose social security and medicare payments help subsidize YOUR ss and medicare, workers whose taxes help subsidize YOUR services, the paramedics and firefighters you'll call in the middle of the night with a fire or medical emergency, the cops you'll call when your house is being broken into and who'll risk their lives to keep YOURS safe, the nursing home workers who'll keep you comfortable in your last days, etc., etc., etc., etc. You don't live in a fucking vacuum. It will get to a point in your life where former children will be subsidizing YOU. The adults who serve you now were once children themselves that SOMEONE had to raise and they weren't a fucking "hobby."

Now, I will totally agree that it is wrong, wrong, wrong for people to get on the case of others for making a very personal decision not to have children, one they have every right to make and every right to live free from judgment and prying. I also got that shit before I had my son and it always amazed me how people who weren't even close to me (let alone family and friends) felt perfectly free and justified to stick their noses in private business. But it seems to me that those who've made the choice not to have children, while they complain about being judged, see nothing wrong with judging others for choosing to be parents. And that's bullshit.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #183)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 07:33 PM

247. Bravo! Well Said, LibHist. (n/t)

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #183)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 08:03 PM

256. thank you, very good.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #183)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 01:18 PM

424. Nice to know you have no respect for those who care for your child

Have you let them know this? I'm sure they'd be dazzled.

>you're a glorified babysitter<

I'm fairly sure I had to have many more certifications and much more training to take care of someone else's children than you did before you just happened to have one. Let's see here: CPR and first aid classes, early childhood education classes, had to pass both state and federal background checks, for starters. I also provided more than the standard number of personal and professional references. It seems that most parents demand a higher standard of care than they are willing to provide themselves as well.

With the advent of "nanny cams", one can be videotaped or monitored without his or her consent as well.

>The adults who serve you now were once children themselves that SOMEONE had to raise and they weren't a fucking "hobby."<

I've seen an amazing number of people who believe that their parenting skills are beyond reproach, despite evidence to the contrary. They also want me to pay to indulge a whim they have little or no training or skill at. Considering the fact we're currently observing the fallout in our own family from a completely inept adult attempting to parent, "hobby" isn't far off the mark.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #183)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 10:14 PM

568. Bravo!

It sounds like what we have is a group of spoiled brat adults.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #183)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 07:11 PM

602. Well said!

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Response to Missy Vixen (Reply #179)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:18 PM

209. Thanks! Maybe parents of ill-behaved kids are the most angry at those of us who refused to have

kids. Who knows.

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Response to Missy Vixen (Reply #179)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:19 PM

210. Private hobby? Raising the next generation to be functioning adults is everyone's business

Directly or indirectly.

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Response to Missy Vixen (Reply #179)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 06:13 PM

232. I was a nanny also.

And the experience was what cemented my desire to not ever have children of my own. One woman in particular I worked for was extremely permissive and weak-willed with her three young boys and as a result the youngest was quite spoiled and badly behaved. Interestingly, he always behaved for me when she wasn't around, but wow, was it ever embarrassing to be in public with this family when they were all together. That kid knew exactly how to manipulate mom into making sure the world revolved around him. I always wonder what happened to him - I worried at the time that he would grow up into a horrible adult.

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Response to Missy Vixen (Reply #179)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 07:11 PM

243. right, you don't believe in subsidies --you will refuse Medicare, correct?

you will repay the cost associated with any time you spent in public education, be it as school-aged or in state colleges or universities.

and Social Security --can't have that either.

all these kids you don't want to subsidize will be paying for these things unless you give them up.

fair is fair.

are you willing to walk the walk or will you be a hypocrite?

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Response to Missy Vixen (Reply #179)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:14 AM

310. Who do you think will be paying for your Social Security? Our children.

They're no hobby; they're our future.

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Response to Missy Vixen (Reply #179)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 08:36 PM

612. Subsidizing an expensive hobby?

Um, no one is "subsidizing" my children, and if you think creating a new life as a hobby then we should all be thankful you have decided to remain childless.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #612)

Thu Dec 29, 2011, 12:37 PM

635. Tax deductions.

If you're taking tax deductions for your children, we're paying for it, whether you like it or not.

Furthermore, the parents who insist they had kids to "save humanity" are fooling themselves.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #173)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:17 PM

208. Not at all. I understand childhood is not adulthood, but to inflict bad child behavior on other

adults, who are not the parents of the child, is just wrong.

I honestly believe the parents of ill-behaved kids often find it quite amusing when their child is disturbing others' good time. Perhaps it makes them feel better to retaliate that way in exchange for having to live enduring their own ill-behaved child 24/7 or something.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #173)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 08:35 AM

375. Well said. I would also add that they ("idiot parents") don't usually post mindless

 

narcissistic rants on DU. More than can be said about haughty childless people, apparently.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #125)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 08:00 PM

255. wow, that's not consistent with my experience at all

"Childless people are more oft than not rude arrogant people who think the world revolves around them and any disturbance is a personal affront to their pearl clutching sensibilities."

A rather absurd generalization.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #125)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 11:33 AM

391. rude is rude

standing up for one's self is not necessarily rude (but can be depends on how it is done)
tolerance can go only so far and then something must change, asking people nicely to respect others rights and positions is a first step
taking punitive action next

This discussion has gone pretty much the same as the one a while back about children being refused service in restaurants.
Saying I am rude, arrogant and selfish is not helpful to the discussion because I am none of those things. I have been very tolerant even after repeated rudeness on the part of others.

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #125)

Sat Dec 31, 2011, 11:56 PM

654. Idiot parents with their bratty mini mes. nt

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Response to ThomThom (Reply #75)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 04:29 PM

185. She's also complaining about kids in their own homes.

For example, helping their parents by answering the telephone, or quietly listening while adults talk.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:11 PM

83. Is anyone (seriously) asking you to keep your children locked up?

 

I would simply ask that you control your children in public and keep them from being disruptive. If they do start throwing a tantrum or acting up while in public, please remove them from the situation so we aren't inflicted with their behavior.

What in the world is wrong with that?

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Response to Abin Sur (Reply #83)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:27 PM

89. You could choose to

not expose yourself to the public. Problem solved.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #89)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:53 PM

106. So if someone's brat is screaming his head off in a restaurant, *I* should leave?

 

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Response to Abin Sur (Reply #106)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:25 PM

128. If you can not deal with the realities of society

perhaps that would be an acceptable choice.

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Response to Abin Sur (Reply #106)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 05:30 PM

516. Since it's more likely that you'll find loud, obnoxious adults interrupting your quiet dinner ...

... perhaps you should leave until you get some perspective.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #89)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:14 PM

122. Wow.

No wonder so many people are disgusted with parents and children. The world does not revolve around you or your offspring. Shocking but true.

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Response to distantearlywarning (Reply #122)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:51 PM

148. I think you missed the point.

See Matt's post above yours.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #148)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 03:19 PM

159. The realities of society

Some of them need to be changed, not just "put up with".

I personally find it extremely offensive that anyone would suggest that the appropriate solution for badly behaved _anyone_ in public is for the target of the bad behavior to simply stay home while the badly behaved offender continues acting as they please. In fact, from my perspective, that is THE most offensive statement in this thread - so selfish and arrogant. That sentiment pretty much sums up EVERYTHING that is wrong with American culture today. Disgusting.

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Response to distantearlywarning (Reply #159)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 03:33 PM

165. I was being facetious.

That's why I included the smiley.

Even if I had been serious, it wouldn't justify your personal attacks. I suggest you edit those out, before someone alerts.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #165)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 03:45 PM

167. Nothing personal about it.

It's merely my opinion that that sentiment and others like it are a very problematic part of American society.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #165)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 03:53 PM

169. Ah, I see.

After re-reading this whole section of the thread, I realize that you were joking. But all the posters who responded to you took you seriously, and one of them agreed with your (facetious) sentiment. I'm glad you don't actually feel that way. It disturbs me that someone else does, though.

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Response to distantearlywarning (Reply #159)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:20 PM

211. Well put! Thanks. nt

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Response to distantearlywarning (Reply #122)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 01:49 AM

341. And the world doesn't revolve around single people who dislike children.

Who insist that children shouldn't answer the phone or talk to adults.

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Response to Abin Sur (Reply #83)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 03:57 PM

170. I agree for the most part but I do not expect parents

to remove their children from public transportation.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:37 PM

216. I have two children.........

.......and I ABSOLUTELY agree with her.

There were many, MANY occasions, when mine were little and prone to being randomly possessed by demons, that I scooped them up and left where ever we were -- restaurants, theaters, concerts, etc. It isn't the fault of the children -- kids are a volatile combination of energy, curiosity and joy housed inside frail skin & bone that cannot possibly keep them contained.............BUT, they do NOT need to run amok, inflicting havoc and misery on every one else in sight.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 07:41 PM

249. Strange if/then scenario

I did have children..eventually. After 15 years of marriage we had our first child. I've lived both with and without kids...and my perception and frustration over parents who coddle and raise brats remained unchanged. I agree with the OP.

I will 'give' you one thing though...my ability to see this as a parenting problem rather that an issue with the child has morphed.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:35 PM

135. Thank You For Your Decision To Not Have Children. It Was Obviously The Correct One. (n/t)

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Response to Paladin (Reply #135)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 04:06 PM

174. LOL,

no kidding. Truest statement yet.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:18 PM

301. The 'ol "do you have any kids" shoot down doesn't fly

with me. I don't have kids but I was one. I remember exactly how my brother, sister and I behaved and what my parents did to accomplish that.

I see what some parents do right and how other screw it up. I do not have to have my own kids to understand. I don't have kids because of extreme caution and a little luck when I was younger.

I could say that not having kids allows me to actually observe other situations more objectively. I'm also and expert grampa. They are my girlfriends grand kids but I handle them great. The two year old boy that is an absolute demon at home is a perfect young gentleman around me. I pay attention to him, hear him and we have a great time. He doesn't have to act up to get attention around us like he does at home. His parents pay more attention to their tv and computers than they do their kids.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 10:23 AM

381. Thank God.

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Response to trumad (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:13 PM

54. Not relevant

 

Try again.

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Response to Eliminator (Reply #54)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:18 PM

58. Very relevant.

Resistance to kid behavior is much greater if you have kids.

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Response to trumad (Reply #58)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:49 PM

103. You're right. The behavior of other parents' children

is usually of little concern to me. My level of tolerance is very high.

When my own children were small, I could feel stress managing them -- but other people's children were their problem!

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:54 AM

6. Actually these kids are not spoiled

They are missing the one thing that would really make them happy.

A parent who loves them enough to not try and pawn them off on others.

And a parent who loves them enough to discipline them.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:57 AM

11. True. Maybe these kids drive these parents so insane that's why they're pawning them off on

other people! I hadn't thought of that. Good point.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:39 PM

99. Not to get all

"Pop psychology" or anything, but I've heard many times that parents who allow their children to act like brats and don't say anything to them are likely allowing their kids to act out their (the parents') own issues.

It's like the parents are reliving their own childhoods where they weren't allowed to do a lot of what they now are allowing their kids to do...

Sort of a backhanded "fuck you" to their own parents or Society in general.



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Response to pipi_k (Reply #99)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:23 PM

212. You're right. I think parents of bratty kids who spoil them, are doing a 'fuck you' to the world.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:55 AM

7. I'm not quite sure how you REALLY feel about these children.

Can you be more explicit?

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Response to Jazzgirl (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:56 AM

9. LOL! I was a bit 'emotive' about this :) nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:56 AM

10. Although I generally like kids

I've experienced spawn-of-satan behavior from one in particular, and as you say, Mom looked on adoringly as the brat damaged my stuff: while my two were in the kitchen snacking on brownies with this child and her sister, the bad seed brought hers into the living room where the adults were socializing. Naturally, brownie fragments were dropped, which is bad enough, but then she ground it into my days-old pastel carpeting and pale velvet upholstery. Another time she pressed chewed gum into my kid's hair, resulting in an unpleasant peanut-butter head massage for my daughter. (which, by the way, is the only remedy that I know of to get gum out of hair.)

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Response to Ineeda (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:58 AM

13. Aaah, I see you've met the spawn of Satan too. Hmm... spawn gets around!

Did you say anything to the mother? I'm wondering if there's a way to break it to these moms that their kids are slightly demonic, thanks to them.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:00 AM

17. Very simple

Don't have them in your home.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:37 AM

42. And excuse yourself if you're someplace where the parents are bragging.

Simple indeed.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:07 AM

28. I did, and Mom looked at me with a blank expression

as if she didn't understand what the problem was. Another time I had put moth balls around some shrubs to deter cats from urinating on them and killing them. I warned this mom on the off-chance her kid couldn't figure out that bad-smelling things on the ground under shrubbery was not consumable. Next thing I know, the mom calls me after a trip to the emergency room, rather upset with ME! I've got lots of examples, but at the time we lived in suburbia and this family was next door. All the neighborhood kids played together, so it was impossible to avoid spawn-girl (or her mom).

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Response to Ineeda (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:04 AM

23. Peanut-butter gets out PB? Who knew?

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Response to tridim (Reply #23)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:08 AM

29. Sorry. Mis-typing. No, PB gets out chewing gum. I think it's the oil or something.

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Response to Ineeda (Reply #29)


Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:59 AM

14. You need to stop socializing with parents

"Yesterday I had to spend some time with one of these kids"

No, you didn't. You spent time with them incident to entirely voluntary social behavior of some kind, but you do not take responsibility for your choices.

Putting aside the fact that yesterday was a holiday which is viewed by some, rightly or wrongly, as a day specifically for being indulgent toward children, you can't claim you didn't know what you were getting into with your voluntary social engagement.

This power of "aggravation" is something only you can give to others. Only you are responsible for how you feel.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:00 AM

16. So my choice is to refuse to invite Brat's parents? nt

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:02 AM

20. That is correct

Stop being a victim of your own social choices.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:08 PM

50. Yes, that is your choice. You knew

that they were parents and that it was Christmas, for God's sake, did you think they weren't going to want to be with their own children on Christmas, of all days? Given your posting history about children, I think you just want an excuse to complain yet again about children and parents.

For many people who don't have children, everything they do irritates them and "gets on their nerves." They unrealistically expect children to sit primly and properly and quietly for hours at a time and not give any sign that they exist. And they certainly have no idea what it's like to be a parent, but that doesn't stop them from criticizing and giving "advice."

I had child-free friends who would invite me over for holidays but who said it was "adults only" and during the day, not in the evening when most children would be in bed. They had the right to make such an invitation and I had the right to refuse it, which I did, because I wanted to spend the holiday with my own son. They couldn't understand why I'd refuse or why I'd want to be with my own child on a freaking holiday, or why their other friends who were parents refused.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #50)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:21 PM

60. Not that simple

 

You don't know details of the OP's situation. Sometimes you are forced to invite people you would rather not invite. Maybe they're connected by family in some way, maybe it would be awkward to invite one friend but not another who is a friend of a friend, etcetera. The point is it's not a simple matter of just not inviting someone to solve the problem of them being shitty parents with bratty kids.

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Response to Eliminator (Reply #60)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:29 PM

63. Sorry, but when it comes to friends and holidays,

people DO have the choice of whom to invite. No one is "forced" to invite any friend. And we only have HER word that they were shitty parents with bratty kids. To many people without kids, ALL kids are brats. BTDT.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #63)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 02:06 PM

438. "To many people without kids, ALL kids are brats." Or most of those on the hard right.

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Response to Eliminator (Reply #60)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:40 PM

140. If she is being forced against her will, call the police!


Otherwise, you are saying that she has made a trade-off between not inviting them or having to tolerate that they bring children.

Inviting a parent to something on Christmas, and expecting that parent to leave the kids with someone on that day suggests that this person expects to be held in higher regard by those social acquaintances than they hold their own children. That's not going to happen.

As a young parent, I was perfectly able to understand that if others held social events for adults only, then I wouldn't be going if there was no childcare option available. At mixed age events, if I had one or more children with me, I was of course not going to be among the last guests lingering over drinks late into the evening, and would generally make it a short visit. But issuing an adults only invitation is perfectly fine.

If persons are entering your home without your permission, the number to call is 911.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #50)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:47 PM

72. As a parent, I wish I could independently recommend this post.

The bigotry I've seen toward children in this thread is astonishing.

Don't want kids, fine. Don't force the rest of us to conform to your belief system. That's not "democratic" OR "liberal."

And the OP did have choices.

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #72)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:32 PM

95. Bigotry toward children is the only kind of bigotry acceptable here.

I've seen it here often.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #95)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:33 PM

133. It's the only one actively encouraged on DU

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #95)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 05:39 PM

526. Indeed.

It seems bizarre, but, oh well. I'm going off to enjoy the rest of my holiday week.

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #72)

Sun Jan 1, 2012, 02:57 AM

656. I think you worded it well. A lot of this thread comes off as bigotry towards children.

I guess ageism can only exist one way.

After all, you're not human until you turn 18.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #50)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:41 PM

142. well said

what gets me is that there seems to be some disconnect between 'bratty kids' and 'normal child behavior'

yes, kids can get rowdy, a good parent handles it

yes, sometimes many of us parents only have stories or anecdotes that involve our children, they live with us and are a part of our lives, duh

yes, kids sometimes want to perform something for the group, it is part of that childlike abandon and should be nutured. (my son wanted to sing his christmas song for grandma last night, as things were winding down, my mom and BIL were watching the TV, he waited for commercial and asked his uncle to mute the tv for a minute, sang his song, gave a hug and was off... nothing wrong with that!)

there's so many things i can point out, but it seems like those who don't have kids and post here would rather see it all as awful behavior on the part of parents and kids.

I would suggest those who have issues with folks like this to seek friends who can accommodate their lives better. Yes, we do have times where certain friends drift because of life and family choices. It's part of life. instead of being so angry, perhaps look at what it is about your friends choices (or is it just the kids) really upset you. then take action to solve it in your own head...

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #50)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:38 AM

322. I think you might enjoy this story, liberalhistorian.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #322)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:49 PM

414. Oh, my, LOL!

See, my family wouldn't have put up with that. We don't put up with misbehavior or brattiness from the children, of course, and remove them if they're causing a problem for everyone else, but we also don't put up with people who get bent out of shape over every little thing a child does and who make ridiculous rules like that. We would have agreed that the woman had the right to make her own rules in the house, but we then would have had the gathering somewhere else. She would have been free to do that and we would have been free to decline.

Then again, I find it very hard to be around people who don't like children or animals. A lot of the time (not always, certainly, but enough times) they're tightly wound and controlling.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #414)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 03:54 PM

456. It was a perfectly nice summer day, so I didn't mind being outside

and I just made an executive decision that she really would prefer my son use the bathroom inside, no matter how adamant she'd been about children staying out.

I would have loved to never see her ever, anywhere, but the problem is that she was married to someone very dear to my husband. So I did what I had to to get along.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #14)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:05 PM

119. My house was on a corner across the

street from an elementary school. The parents, sitting waiting for school to dismiss, were far more destructive than any of their kids. Cigarette butts, empty soft drink (occasionally a beer) cans, coffee take out... were regularly dumped on the lawn. A lunch box would be cleared of the contents before driving away. These parents were w/o shame. Is it any wonder their kids have no respect for others after watching the actions of their primary role models?

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:01 AM

19. I'm a grandpa. That's my job.





Trust me. I know my boundaries.


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Response to lpbk2713 (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:03 AM

22. I get it perfectly when grandpas spoil their grandkids. You're right, spoiling is a grandpa's job

But a MOM's? Nope. These moms are just... well, incredibly aggravating!! They shape their kids into little monsters.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:25 PM

88. Were you "spoiled"? Did you/your mom engage in any of those behaviours?

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #88)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 10:30 PM

570. Sounds a wee bit spoiled to me...

Just a wee bit, self centered and self absorbed. Maybe my friends are just good parents. I truly enjoy their kids. I like the performances. When they answer the phone, I do entertain and listen to them until mom comes to the phone. They can play ball in my yard. And, I have seen bratty kids turn into nice adults...and a few quiet ones I wouldn't trust alone with my cat. Kids are kids. You never quite know how they'll turn out. But, I enjoy them. Think of the innocence of the children that may have encountered self absorbed adults without ever realizing the seething that existed inside of them because...wait for it, they answered a phone or weren't quiet enough.

Give me spoiled kids over spoiled adults any day. I can avoid spoiled children. Spoiled adults are EVERYWHERE. They're at work, they blog, they drive cars while texting, they cheat on their spouses, they rant about nonessential stuff...100 times worse than kids.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:04 AM

25. I don't usually see a lot of kids like you're describing, but I did last Thursday

I unfortunately had to attend a funeral last Thursday of an uncle whom I didn't know very well. Anywho, my 25-year old cousin brought her 3-year old daughter. It was inappropriate. She was coloring, screaming, running around, etc during the funeral service. I was talking to my dad and apparently the girl's father usually looks after her during the day. I didn't understand why my cousin brought her. She's not old enough to understand what's going on, was disruptive to the event in that 4 adults were having to help "entertain" her during the service. If she had sat there quietly coloring that would be one thing, but the child threw her colors around.



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Response to tammywammy (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:06 AM

26. Yes, I don't get why these parents insist that kids be in inappropriate settings...

or push them into doing inappropriate things for their age.

And those that cause other adults to waste their time only to have their kid as center stage, oh my goodness. Makes me a bit crazy.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #26)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:21 AM

315. On Christmas Day, a child's "appropriate place" is with her parents. If you want the parents,

you're going to have to put up with the kids. Hire a babysitter to watch them in another room -- if you can find one on Christmas.

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Response to tammywammy (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:34 PM

66. Some people think a funeral is a family event?


It is the deceased who has inconvenienced everyone.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #66)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:43 PM

69. For a 2 or 3 year old?

It would be one thing if the child hadn't been disruptive, but she was. She screamed, she threw things, she ran around. Sorry, that's inappropriate. There was plenty of family time after the actual funeral.

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Response to tammywammy (Reply #69)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:00 PM

76. Yes


This was the child of a cousin of "an uncle I didn't know very well". We are talking about a grandchild of the deceased, yes?

When a child is disruptive, and won't settle down, the parent should remove the child to the lobby or whatever.

But attendance at the ritual of passage of dead kin is engrained in us from the earliest stone age tribes, and some still see it that way.

It is also a fair bet that others in attendance of the "uncle I didn't know very well" may have more of an affectionate familial set of relationships in which they are all involved in the raising of that child.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #76)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:09 PM

80. I won't get into the family relationship details

But I will note that this was a step-grandchild and that the deceased did not have a hand in raising her.

My point was that the child WAS disruptive during the service. That's what I have an issue with. If she had been quiet then it would have been a non-issue, but she wasn't. She threw things, screamed, ran around, etc. I don't blame the child, it's the parent's fault.

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Response to tammywammy (Reply #80)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:11 PM

82. You need to find those knives from the "Omen"


I always bring a dagger to church services like that.

If a kid acts demon possessed, I offer the dagger to the parent, just in case.

That usually settles them down.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #76)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:12 PM

121. It would have been a sign of respect to the deceased and rest of the

family to go outside or out to the lobby with the child. Maybe she thought he / she would behave well but they were tired, hungry or bored ... sometimes just a little common sense goes a long way.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #121)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:29 PM

213. Exactly. It would be incredibly disrespectful to have a child running, playing, screaming while the

bereaved are inconsolably weeping and sad. Beyond rude. Just plain mean.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #213)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 06:28 PM

235. Inconsolable Weeping is not an appropriate adult behavior at funerals either


No, you don't go to a funeral to weep inconsolably, wail, ululate, fire guns in the air, or get into a drunken fight with your brother about who broke mom's heart.

Okay, wait, you can fire guns in the air if it is a military funeral.

Do we want to talk about annoying divorcès and funerals?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #235)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:38 PM

295. Well, most often being inconsolable at a funeral of someone you're mourning deeply isn't a choice,

IS IT?

Never has been for me, but then maybe we're not all as strong as you.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #213)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 08:06 PM

257. I'd rather a child playing than an adult inconsolably weeping at my funeral thank you very much.

And at my parents' funerals. Much prefer it.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #257)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 09:47 PM

282. Unless mom is a 'casket diver'

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #282)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 10:12 PM

288. I don't think I've told you

how much I appreciate your posts on this thread. thank you.

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Response to tammywammy (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:48 PM

73. Some people don't have the money for a babysitter.

Duh.

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #73)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:51 PM

74. The child's father takes care of her during the day while the mother works

I wrote that in my reply.

BTW, everyone seemed surprised that she brought her daughter to the funeral instead of leaving her with her father for the morning and picking her up afterward. Instead she child proceeded to throw things, run around and scream before and during the service. Sorry, that's inappropriate. The child was throwing a temper tantrum before things even started. The mother should have sat outside the service with her instead of bringing her in, since it was obvious from the beginning what was going to happen.

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Response to tammywammy (Reply #74)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 11:03 AM

386. Ultimately, this is what it's all about.

If a child is being disruptive, the parent needs to remove that child from the scene. Plain and simple. It's a sacrifice of being both a civilized adult and a parent. Summed up: it shows respect for all parties involved. Too bad many parents do not wish to hold themselves up to this standard.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:06 AM

27. heehee



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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:08 AM

30. now lets make a list what we hate about adults.... betcha as long.

it never took but seconds for my kids to figure out the adults that did not particularly like them, for the mere fact that they were kids. and they had no interest interacting or being around the adult, so they would have stayed well away from your plastered smile. the most obvious insults, derision, condescension has come from adults with their arrogant belief a kid won't recognize the rude behavior.

i like being around my kids. i like being around most all kids. i like listening to them and hearing what and how they think. and really, i mean this sincerely, if you dislike kids that much, you do not want to hear or see them, let the parent know, so they can be sure not to rock you boat.

as a parent, i have no desire what so ever to share my child with someone who does not want that child around.

now,

that may mean i cant participate in some events because golly gee.... i have these kids and they re my responsibility and i dont take them lightly. i won't be ditchin them for you.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #30)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:39 PM

100. I agree -- except that this was a family Christmas event, so I think all children should be welcomed

and anyone who with so little tolerance for kids should stay home.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #100)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:41 PM

143. the thing. a person who does not have kids may be the ones to blow something very small into a HUGE

Last edited Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:17 AM - Edit history (2)

deal and then say kids out of control. their tolerance so limited, no grace at all.

i dont want my kids to be around that adult that will teach them such a lack of tolerance, understanding or perception, anyway.

today talking to my father about his gr grabddaughter. 4. the face she gives. ya, a snotty face and she learned it fast, not to give it to me. but, overall the girl did a kick ass job with all the excitement, lots of people, early morning, lots of emotion. i told her how well she did. and i am tough on her. telling my father. she is in a lot of different environments with different demands and rules. her moms house. the mans house her mom is divorcing, she grew up with. and her biological fathers house.

fuck

she is just 4. lol

she was at biological fathers house all christmas eve. woken at midnght to open presents. (dont know what the fuck that is about). and brought to my house for santa morning at 8. then back here for dinner at 3. no nap. her biological father insists she is the princess and he the prince. spend the day with that then come into another environment, it is hard to adjust.

that is a LOT to ask from a little four year old

adults that have no patience with kids maybe ought to not put themselves in these nuclear environments, lol.

tis sad

and interesting

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #143)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:11 AM

309. We used to have a child-hater in our family. Fortunately, she's gone now.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #30)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:57 PM

152. +1

Kids are so much more perceptive than certain adults give them credit for. And depending on the personality of the child, certain children sense when an adult dislikes them and will attempt to aggravate that adult even more, on purpose. Or they simply act up in an attempt to get out of the situation.

I will say that my kids always get compliments on how well behaved they are and you know what? I did everything opposite of what my parents did. I also, like you seabeyond, really enjoy my kids' company and spend a lot of time with them. I include them in as much as I can, since my parents were of the mind 'children should be seen and not heard' and I believe it really crippled me for years. I was petrified of adults as a child and while people might like that because they think it makes for better behaved children who have 'respect' I can also say it makes for children who a ripe for abuse because they would never say no to an adult either out of fear of consequences.

There are many people in my immediate and extended family who are childless by choice. In fact, probably more childless than who are not. And I've never seen the level of arrogance at family functions that I see here regarding those with children. I also get tired of the 'I'm a victim' mentality when those people are around children. As others have said, they do have a choice. Don't invite said person. Make other plans. If it's Christmas and you believe that you can't get around it, then you grin and bear it just like the rest of us do with creepy uncle or sarcastic grandma. Or do the parents a favor and let them know how much you dislike them and their child. You'll be doing them and yourself a favor because I can guarantee, there's no way they'll ever attend another event with you. And it's likely no one else in the family will want to invite you either and then you'll never have to deal with them again. Problem solved.

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #152)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 03:08 PM

155. my oldest taught me it is true, the feel of an insult. by 3 or 4 he would look to me when an adult

would try to put him in his place or any other manner an adult chooses to be ugly to a kid. i would pull the child out of environment and a simply say "some adults dont like kids". that would put it in place for my son so he didnt internalize it.

my husband had parents that was like yours. my family was not like that at all. kids werent allowed in aprents bedroom. parents ate dinner after kids. mind blowing. my husband loves how we do it, but periodically i see his raising raise its head. and i laugh, ya right, not gonna happen.

his parents now do everything to connect the family. my family is just connected, without effort.

i also have more family without kids or even married than the other way. isnt that funny. no one has a problem with it. well, one uncle. and we dont visit. lol. too bad. i like the man.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #155)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 08:12 AM

373. While inflammatory, this topic is actually quite interesting

I have a severely autistic child so we need to sit out many gatherings because he has the athletic body of a 16 year old and the judgement and self control of a 4 year old. But this year, my husband's new girlfriend really wanted our whole family to come and meet her family for Christmas eve (if that last sentence didn't parse, it's because we're poly and everyone attending understood what that meant). Anyway, my husbands and I took shifts with our kiddo and actually he acted like a champ. When it was clear that he couldn't take the stimulation anymore, I took him home, and the others came home just a bit later. But everyone had really nice things to say about him and how we watched over him.One of them said something to me that I recently said to some friends of mine. They said it was obvious that he was loved and he knew it.

I have a couple of friends who are barely scraping by and they worry that their child will not have a good childhood because they struggle with money so much. But the thing is, they love this kid with all their hearts and this kid knows it. She isn't spoiled, she's loved. And she's happy, one of the happiest kids I've ever met.

I was raised by upper middle class parents who believed that children were a nuisance and clearly wished they had never had us. Sure, I had lots of things as a child, but no love.

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Response to tavalon (Reply #373)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:35 PM

411. Your parents with monetary problems are providing what the kids need to succeed in life

This is from a review article by a U of MN Inst. of Child Behavior professor on Resilience in Children at-Risk (including poverty):

"The most important protective resource for development is no surprise, it is a strong relationship with a competent, caring, prosocial adult."

Maybe you could pass the article on to your friends! Sounds like they're doing a good job!

Sounds like you're an awesome parent, too.




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Response to tpsbmam (Reply #411)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 07:37 PM

554. Not to sound arrogant,

but yeah, I am a good parent. I never thought I would be and I never allowed my loins to produce progeny for just that reason. He's my stepchild (been with him now for 11 years). I knew all the ways I didn't want to parent and I asked lots of parents and consulted lots of books, some about autism but most about parenting.

It's funny (weird) that I always start from the place of knowing what I don't want and then I figure out what I do want.

I'll take a look at that article and might even pass it on. Honestly, we would never have crossed paths if I hadn't started being a volunteer at the kiddos moms' animal rescue. But they are salt of the earth good people. I tend to have few real life friends because I'm a nightshifter and a mom to an autistic kiddo and, and, and........

Anyway, because I'm a nurse, they think I'm miles above them. I'm not, or at least I don't want to be. If the article is too wordy, I'd rather put it in my own words. Which, actually, I do, often.

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Response to tavalon (Reply #554)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 04:34 PM

596. Nothing arrogant about doing a good job, recognizing it and acknowledging it.

That's healthy.

And he's a lucky guy having you! As difficult as it can be having a kid with autism, I suspect you're also lucky to have him as I've always found kids with special needs enrich my life in a way that few other things or people can.

As for the other, yeah, I totally know what you're talking about. I have a Ph.D. and have someone who works for me once a week cleaning my house and more (i'm disabled -- she does A LOT of stuff I can't do)-- she's been with me for 3 years and has become a friend. She has a high school education and does the same thing with me. I've told her a number of times this is total bullshit! She's incredibly bright -- among other things, she's an excellent problem solver and, when I pointed it out to her, she saw that there are MANY people in her life who rely on her for that, sometimes me included! I see her fluid intelligence on a regular basis -- the woman is seriously bright. I think I've finally convinced her that education isn't the same as intelligence -- I know VERY bright people who never went on to advanced education -- she's one of them.

Yeah, it's pretty wordy -- summation is a good idea.




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Response to tpsbmam (Reply #596)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 07:44 PM

605. But totally spot one

Thanks!

I adore my kiddo except when he practices his highest squeals in my ear, as he just did. But since he's grinning ear to ear, it's hard to stay annoyed.

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #152)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 06:33 PM

236. Bravo

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #30)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 07:18 PM

244. +a million, seabeyond

as a parent, i have no desire what so ever to share my child with someone who does not want that child around.

+a million.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #244)


Response to seabeyond (Reply #30)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 10:41 PM

571. +1

Seabeyond is right, tell the parents how you really feel. Don't hold back. Let it out. Don't sugar coat it. Then they'll know and will either ignore your invites or make other arrangements for their children. And, when they see your name on caller ID...they'll make sure their kids don't answer the phone. Unless they start doing it to purposely annoy you. I bet a few of them already know how you feel. I'd love to hear their perspective right now. Even when we don't appreciate honesty, we generally act on it. Your life is probably just a few phone calls away of being simplified. It just takes a few calls or emails. Hey, send a copy of the rant. It was really effective on DU.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:14 AM

31. Some children are very likeable.

The delightful children tend to be the ones who are occasionally told "no", who have parents who expect good behavior from them, and who are not allowed to do anything they want.

Parents who never say no to their children, who let them run around wreaking havoc, who let their children interrupt adult conversations, etc, are doing a disservice to their children.

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Response to Quantess (Reply #31)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:31 PM

214. Exactly. Some kids are awesome. Some are something out of a nightmare, because their parents

allow this (or maybe LIKE them to be this way).

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:19 AM

32. Hark all those about! Bask in the light of my brilliant child.

Dude no one else in a 15 ft circumference thinks your childs' a genius for their constant questions during the IMAX show.

Could you shush them please.

I paid my $15 to watch the show. Not hear you chatter with your indulged brat.

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Response to alphafemale (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:32 PM

215. So true! nt

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Response to alphafemale (Reply #32)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 05:42 PM

224. Isn't that the worst? had the same experience myself.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:19 AM

34. Whatever happened to children being seen and not heard?

 

I see (and, unfortunately, hear) a lot of children waiting in line with their parents at the post office where I work. The well-behaved ones are the exception, not the rule.

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Response to Abin Sur (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:11 PM

52. Yeah, let's just keep them all locked away in their

rooms and never, ever let them out of the house except for school where they can be with their own kind.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #52)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:16 PM

55. Please tell me you aren't being sarcastic...I'm *so* in on this!

 

But seriously, I have no problem with quiet, well behaved, respectful children.

It's a shame they're so rare...

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Response to Abin Sur (Reply #55)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:37 PM

98. It's a shame quiet, well behaved respectful adults are so rare.

Still, we can hope.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #98)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:51 PM

104. While many adults are poorly behaved (in a restaurant, for instance)

 

which is more disruptive to a nice meal? An adult loudly speaking on a cell phone, or a kid screaming, crying, throwing food, and running around?

I've seen examples of both, and the brat has a *far* worse impact on one's dining experience.

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Response to Abin Sur (Reply #104)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:55 PM

107. I agree, the brat talking loudly on the cell phone has a *far* worse impact on dining experience

After all, they should know better, that they are not the most important people in the world and I really don't want to have to listen to them yelling about whatever the hell they are yelling about.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #107)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:57 PM

110. Cute. Are you actually arguing that an adult speaking loudly on cell phone is

 

more disruptive in a restaurant than a child screaming, throwing food, and running around?

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Response to Abin Sur (Reply #110)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:00 PM

114. Yes, it certainly can be. Are you arguing that an adult screaming on a cell phone is

less disruptive than a child screaming is?

Are you arguing that a drunk adult is less disruptive than a child running around?

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #114)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:05 PM

118. I never said the adult in question was screaming, did I?

 

While I've certainly encountered adults in restaurants speaking loudly on a cell phone, I've never encountered one screaming...and I *have* encountered screaming kids running around in restaurants, so (at least for myself) the former isn't a problem, whereas the latter is.

But let's go with your example. In this case, the adult and child are equally disruptive...but I will speculate that a screaming adult almost invariably be asked to leave, whereas the screaming children are often not.

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Response to Abin Sur (Reply #110)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 10:08 PM

620. It's certainly much more common.

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Response to Abin Sur (Reply #104)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:57 PM

109. I've honestly never had a "dining experience" ruined by a child.

But I've had some unpleasant experiences with drunk adults.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #109)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:59 PM

113. I've never had a bad experience in a restaurant with a drunk adult,

 

but I have had a couple of fancy dinners ruined by children.

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Response to Abin Sur (Reply #113)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:02 PM

117. A couple? In how many years of restaurant going?

And how many children did you encounter over the years who didn't ruin your meal?

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #117)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:10 PM

120. I was thinking of the worst examples. I've certainly encountered more than 2

 

instances of children acting up in restaurants in the last 30 years.

That being said, I will freely admit that the majority of children weren't particularly disruptive...but I can think of a couple dozen times over the decades when children have had at least *some* negative impact on my dining experience, and I honestly can't think of any where an adult did anything worse than talk and laugh somewhat loudly.

Note that I'm speaking of upscale restaurants, not fast food.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #98)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 05:47 AM

358. Perhaps because they were allowed to be

loud, disrespectful children.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #358)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 07:15 AM

364. Or maybe it's just the opposite. As soon as they're out from under their parents' iron thumbs

they let loose.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #364)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 08:47 AM

376. Could be.

I suppose to be safe a parent might seek something in the middle.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #376)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 04:25 PM

476. Yes! Being a good parent is a difficult balancing act --

that's never changes.

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Response to Abin Sur (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:07 PM

78. The 1960's and liberal ideas about childrearing?


Teaching children to do things like "question authority" and so on.

It was those dirty hippies, I tell ya.

I'm asking the same question about the under-30 crowd and what makes them think they have anything interesting to say.

Across the board we need to make kids understand that they must respect and obey their elders, uphold out cherished traditions and maintain the integrity of our precious bodily fluids.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #78)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 10:53 AM

385. You.

Full of win.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #78)

Sun Jan 1, 2012, 03:03 AM

657. The sarcasm in this post was brilliant.

Or I hope that was sarcasm.

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Response to musicblind (Reply #657)

Sun Jan 1, 2012, 04:39 AM

658. Consider your hope rewarded

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Response to Abin Sur (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:36 PM

97. That is part of many authoritarian cultures, but not of the America

that most progressives want to live in.

Children don't suddenly become adults at the age of 18, after almost two decades of being "seen and not heard." They need years of practice being seen and heard before they can join the world as adults.

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Response to Abin Sur (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 08:20 PM

260. I don't think well-behaved children are particularly rare

I think people are just more likely to notice (and focus on) poorly behaved children.

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Response to fishwax (Reply #260)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:05 PM

299. the thing about it is, it could be a wonderful child having a bad moment and there is NO grace at

all

see one moment of a kids life and they and parent are categorized as horrible people.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #299)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:34 PM

303. good point

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:20 AM

36. Admittedly I don't know the kid in question, but I think you're confusing two issues:

parents who include their kids a lot in social arrangements and adult activities, and parents who let their kids get away with murder. The two are not the same.

I have no children myself, but I enjoy being around the children of my friends and relatives. I do find them interesting to be with (often more so than adults!) and am happy to be in their company. They do not need to be 'special' or 'fascinating' to be refreshing and enjoyable companions; all children are special IMO.

Allowing children to mess up and break other people's property, run through shops without consideration for others, and otherwise misbehave is another matter, and is not doing anyone a favour, least of all the kids.

In my experience, the WORST behaved kids I've encountered have tended to be those who are not included much in family and social activities and given an implicit message by their parents of 'Do what you like so long as you don't bother ME!'

I should add that yesterday was Christmas, which is for many families basically 'Children's Day', and I would not really think it reasonable to expect to spend a child-free day with a parent on that particular day.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #36)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:30 PM

93. I agree. Children are enjoyable human beings who need to interact with other human beings.

Parents should keep their children from being disruptive; but other adults should understand that children are works in progress.

And, as you mentioned, yesterday was Christmas -- which is an incredibly exciting day for children. Anyone who is bothered by the high-energy of kids should try to avoid them on that day of the year!

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:26 AM

37. I feel the same way about dogs...nt

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #37)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:38 AM

43. The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.

 

That having been said, there are certainly poorly-behaved dogs...but on the whole I would rather interact with a random dog than a random child.

Kids. Yech.

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Response to Abin Sur (Reply #43)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 01:58 PM

111. "Kids. Yech." This is a form of bigotry that seems to be acceptable here.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #111)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:25 PM

127. If this were said here about any other group of people other than children or

Republicans, pizza would be served!!

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Response to retread (Reply #127)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:19 AM

314. That's for sure. n/t

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:28 AM

38. Yeah...your right....prostitution SHOULD be legal

Oops...wrong thread

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:28 AM

39. That is a funny post:)

I absolutely adore children and am usually the first to make excuses for almost anything when it comes to them, but ... I can absolutely see how someone who doesn't have their own could easily be bothered by the things you've stated. I have a niece who, when she was young, was a real terror... so much so that her mom and dad had a VERY hard time finding anyone to babysit. People loved her, they just couldn't stand being around her for longer than a few minutes. She's a very grounded, sensible, happy young woman NOW .... but, oh lordy she put us through hell. So, I hear ya.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Original post)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:34 AM

40. Obviously written by a person who doesn't have kids.

It's amazing how annoying kids can be to single people, especially in restaurants. Once you've had a few yourself, these annoyances morph into background noise, along with the muzak and clanking plates in the restaurant kitchen.

Fact is, most singles who air the kind of complaints we see here come loaded for bear to hate the kids before they even arrive, no matter what the situation and no matter who the kids. It's just another stereotypical response to something already disliked.

You'll notice the OP doesn't bother listing any LIKABLE traits for kids.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:35 AM

41. not to mention overstimulation on a day like christmas for many reasons and the age of the child. nt

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Response to stopbush (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:40 AM

44. "Likeable traits for kids". Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

 

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Response to stopbush (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 11:48 AM

45. I have two, now grown, and though they were far from perfect,

they would never have gotten away with behavior such as several people, including me, have posted. So, there are no broad brush complaints about kids here. This thread is about brats and their indulgent parents, and you must admit that they do, indeed, exist.

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Response to Ineeda (Reply #45)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 04:38 PM

189. There may be no broad blush complaints, but there are misguided and intolerant complaints.

It is misguided to think that children should be held to the exact same standards of behavior as adults; or to think that children shouldn't be allowed to answer the telephone in their own home, or to talk to the checker at the supermarket, or to listen quietly while adults talk -- all points made in the OP.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:18 PM

57. Utterly irrelevant

 

This OP is about the bratty kids, more precisely, about the bad parents.

There are PLENTY of children who are well behaved. They usually have good parents. Single people don't have problems with kids. They have problems with the bad ones who have shitty parents.

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Response to Eliminator (Reply #57)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 12:31 AM

319. You didn't read the OP carefully.

Some of her complaints were about perfectly acceptable and normal behaviors -- such as answering the phone in a child's own home. Now that my kids don't bother anymore, I miss the help.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #319)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 11:55 AM

396. That's a matter of perspective

 

The OP didn't just talk about answering the phone:


Parents that allow the kids to run and answer the phone every time and waste your time talking trash, when the reason you called is to talk to the adult, not entertain the kid


If it's a matter of the kid answering the phone, saying "hold on I'll go get him/her", that's different. Maybe the OP would have a problem with that too, I don't know. But the OP is complaining about having to talk to the kid about kiddy stuff, and that the kid answers the phone every time.

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Response to Eliminator (Reply #396)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 04:11 PM

468. What's wrong with the child answering the phone every time?

What gives this woman the right to have her calls answered at all? A lot of people just let the machine answer everything. She'll get a faster response if SOMEONE is answering it.

And what gives her the right NOT to have to politely talk to ANYONE who answers the phone? If she doesn't want a child to answer, she has lots of alternatives these days -- emailing, texting, etc.

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Response to Eliminator (Reply #57)

Wed Dec 28, 2011, 09:21 AM

584. Yes there are. I have two visiting my home right now. My nieces kids. She is a great parent.

And she would be the first one to agree with the OP that obnoxious bratty kids with oblivious or even enabling parents suck.

That some would get so outraged over that premise is odd.

I was at a summer work party and a co worker brought her two very entitled boys along with her and her husband. They were around 11 and 13.
They got on a schtick where they were going around to all of the adults pretending to be waiters. And then demanding tips. People would say "no thank you" politely but they were being really aggressive and getting in your face. Over and over and over and over.
Mom of course thought their behavior was just adorable. They were interrupting conversations with their cute little game. And neither Mom nor Dad did a thing.

It would have been such a no brainer as a parent to be aware of other peoples reaction to your kids and tell them to knock it off. But that didn't happen. Finally one of my less tolerant co-workers said loudly something like "No and stop bothering people" And of course Mom and Dad were pissed. At my co-worker. Not their brats.

So yeah as far as a situation like this goes, I am totally on board with the OP.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:24 PM

61. Amen. And this particular poster has had a bee

in her bonnet against children and those of us who dare to be parents for a long time and never misses an opportunity to make that be known.

She has the right to decide for herself not to have children, and the right to live her life free from criticism or judgment over such a decision. She does NOT have the right to go about demanding that children be kept under lock and key and to constantly criticize other parents when, never having been a parent, she doesn't understand the first thing about it.

Speaking of restaurants-when my son was younger, he and my parents and I were in a FAMILY restaurant once. He'd been coloring with the "entertainment packets" they give children in such restaurants and was laughing at something he'd colored. A couple people at the table across from us got mad and said "can't you keep him quiet?" He wasn't screaming. He wasn't crying. He wasn't banging on the table or making a huge mess or throwing food around or running amok around the restaurant. He was LAUGHING. And this was a FAMILY restaurant, not an upscale, romantic ambience establishment. We politely told them where to put it and what to do with it. Politely, of course, unlike them.

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #61)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 02:45 PM

144. touche

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Response to liberalhistorian (Reply #61)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 04:29 PM

186. You win this thread.

I've read this entire thread with horror.

It is my opinion that the OP just does not want to be around children, which is odd since she was obviously a child once. I'd like to know what her childhood was like, and what her parents were like but she won't share that.

I have two very well-behaved adult children who are in the same age group as the OP.

They don't have children, either. But they sure as hell aren't disturbed by them.

So, as much as I'd like to be a grandfather, I respect their decisions. But just outright disliking children and compartmentalizing them in 19th-century Dickensian terms is ridiculous.

Thanks for your good post.

And I wish the OP had a little more compassion. We were all kids once, perhaps she was the perfect child to instruct the rest of us.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 26, 2011, 12:32 PM

64. Actually, the OP was quite clear that the rant was about permissive parents, NOT about the children

And I agree with the OP completely that adults who spoil kids (and therefore cause problems for other people) are extremely irritating.

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Response to distantearlywarning (Reply #64)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 01:49 AM

342. One's 'permissive' parent...

...is another's 'progressive' parent. Even in some cases, seen as a 'restrictive' parent. After 30 years and five children, I have been told all three. It all depends on the judging person's perspective.

While dining in finer restaurants, other customers would come up to our table and compliment us on our children (funny how I remember that same thing happening to my mother when she took my sister and I out to eat).

I have had some other mom's tell me I am too permissive...I shouldn't be letting my 3yr daughter rifle through my stuff (my jewelry box). She was curious about it and wanted to explore it. She could not damage anything in there or be harmed.

I heard the 'tsk' tsk' (you'll spoil her) when I carried my baby around in a snugglie becasue she cried in the playpen. What baby wouldn't rather be with their mother?

And a group of women once pounced on me when I mentioned we don't buy cola products (kids were now tweens) like I was the worst mother in the world.

Having children in the company of adults for conversations is a wonderful thing. Of course the topics are chosen wisely. Children can be removed to another activity if 'those' types of conversations need to begin. Since none of my five children spent their childhood locked up in a room with 30 other kids their own age, day after day, year after year, they were around many adults, babies, teens, children of all ages. I think this prepared them on how to communicate with people different than themselves. (a mother at my daughter's dance class came up and told me how much she always enjoyed talking with my daughter. She was 10).

Taking children to restaurants to learn how to behave is a teaching moment. The first few tries may not end happily. And other patrons of that particular restaurant will only see 'bratty' kids.
I work in a restaurant now. My children are all grown. I see every day how parents react with their children. Yes, there are bratty ones, but mostly they are just being normal kids doing normal kid stuff and they have parents that are teaching them what is appropriate.

When I am out and about and run into family with children, most times I enjoy watching them. The times I do not, the kids are obviously out of control and the parents do nothing to control them. Depending on the situation, I may try to take control (honey, running around in this restaurant is very dangerous to yourself and to others. If you need to leave your seat, make sure you do so carefully and not bump anyone) or I leave the area (restaurant, store, etc) and let the management know why I am leaving.

Even my perspective is subjective. But at least it keeps my stress level down. I have done something to stop the annoyance.

It is only human to have empathy for something you have experienced yourself. So it is no surprise that child free individuals have less tolerance for children than individuals who have children. People who do not have cell phones or who do not use them while driving have less tolerance towards people that do.

My suggestion for the OP would be to first try and understand what the situation really is...a teaching moment for the child (how the parents respond). If they do and are effective, then realize the 'annoyance' should be seen as a really great moment in that child's life. It is the miracle of raising a wonderful person right before your eyes. Second, if the parents do nothing, YOU try to make the teaching moment, not with stern judgement, but like a teacher to her student. If that fails, you leave the situation or tolerate it. I would leave. Even the best filet in the finest restaurant is not worth a child run amok or two adults arguing (why do men think that by taking their wives to a really fine dining establishment to ask for a divorce will NOT cause a scene?). Of course the same is true with animal lovers and their pets.

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Response to Skelly (Reply #342)

Tue Dec 27, 2011, 05:33 PM

518. Exactly