Spare a thought for the over 700 Muslims who died in that

[malaise]

stampede in Saudi Arabia earlier today.

[nil desperandum]

1. You would think

they would have addressed this by now, back in 1994 it was around 1400 dead if I recall....although with over a million people I guess it's hard to control what happens when they stampede...

[WinkyDink]

2. I don't get it. Why rush?

[brooklynite]

3. Religion seems to get people worked up

[jberryhill]

7. Well, that and Who concerts

But that was only 4 people, IIRC.

My understanding was that the Saudis had been working toward better crowd control and flow.

There are apparently two columns of rock that pilgrims are supposed to throw rocks at. In the past, having a whole lot of people throwing rocks at a target in the middle of a circle had predictable consequences. They eventually built something like a multilevel parking garage around it, established one-way traffic on each floor and supplied smaller throwing pebbles.

It's tough to manage in any event when you have a requirement that everyone manage to go to one particular spot and preferably during one particular season at least once in their life, if possible. Some Indian festivals come close.

But observances that are geographically distributed have problems as well. We manage around 400 deaths on Memorial Day weekend this year, apparently. http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nearly-400-fatalities-from-crashes-this-memorial-day-weekend-estimates-national-safety-council-300084247.html
But, that's with a whole lot more people, and spread out.

The upside, though, is that I believe that dying during a Hajj is a free pass to paradise, so that could factor into the extent to which additional safety measures are desired.

[Ichigo Kurosaki]

9. It was

It was 11 people crushed at Cincinnati. I was almost tempted to go since a friend had a spare ticket but it was a weekday and I couldn't get away from work to go.

[WinkyDink]

19. Not to digress too much, but that concert was exactly why I did NOT go to that tour's Philly stop.

I've since regretted that decision.

[jberryhill]

8. They have to do a sequence of rituals over the course of a few days

This one is the 'stoning of the devil', which used to cause all kinds of problems.

They finally built a facility through which people can stream on several levels and throw pebbles at the thing they are supposed to throw them at.

The stampede happened a ways back from there, where the red circle is:



I suppose it moves pretty slow during the day, so early on there must be a rush to get in line quickly.

Kind of like being first in line for Space Mountain when Disney opens in the morning. From the picture, it looks pretty organized once people are out of the camp area.

[dembotoz]

4. crazy stuff...if that happened in a western country it would be wall to wall coverage

but since it is over there....media not so impressed

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. It's been leading the bulletins in Britain all day (nt)

[etherealtruth]

20. Top story in all major news outlets ....?

horrifying tragedy

[malaise]

23. Yep I noticed that although there is more coverage this morning

on CNN - just imagine 700 dead in Rome on a pilgrimage although nowhere gets the numbers or logistical nightmares like Mecca.

[hlthe2b]

5. Devastating tragedy...

I can't even imagine the horrendous fear of being trapped in such a situation. Just devastating....

[GummyBearz]

21. Yep

They didn't complete the Hajj and wont get to go to heaven I think

[malaise]

24. Very true but I will never be trapped in such a situation

I run from huge crowds and all religions.

[LiberalElite]

27. I could never do that trip - too many people

in a too small space

[Half-Century Man]

6. Is there a final tally?

Horrible tragidy.

[starroute]

10. Islam is too time-bound and space-bound for its own good

I understand exactly why it seemed important at the time. Formal systems of astronomical calculations had replaced the rhythms of nature, and they were trying to get away from that. They were also trying to avoid the elaborate creeds of religions like Christianity in favor of a short-and-simple list of things that every Muslim had to agree to.

But in the long run, that simplification has created more problems than it solved. Having a lunar calendar that is not reconciled with the solar calendar by periodically inserting an extra month means your month-long dawn-to-dusk fast will sometimes come in the middle of summer -- and will cause particular problems in Scandinavia, where midsummer days are over twenty hours long.

Basing the calendar on what day a crescent moon first becomes visible or on when it becomes impossible to tell a white thread from a grey one by natural light invites either arbitrary solutions or people in different locations getting out of sync. And I have no idea how a Muslim astronaut would pray facing Mecca.

Every religion has prescriptions for the devout that seem designed to tie people up in knots. But Islam seems to go beyond any of them in the extent to which it's tied to the one little desert town where it originated.

[hunter]

11. Exactly.

In our world with a much greater population and quick affordable transportation things become exponentially more complicated.

That's true of many of humanity's most pressing problems.

[jberryhill]

12. Palmyra NY during the annual LDS festival is quite the hopping place

[LostOne4Ever]

13. ...

[MerryBlooms]

14. .

[panader0]

15. Horrific...

[Tom_Foolery]

16. ...

[spanone]

17. this seems to happen over & over and it's insane!

sad...

[Codeine]

22. Play stupid games

win stupid prizes.

[FLPanhandle]

35. +1

[oberliner]

26. Yes it was

Al Jazeera:

At least 717 people have been killed in a stampede at the annual Hajj pilgrimage, Saudi Arabia's civil defence directorate said, as the death toll continued to rise.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/pilgrims-killed-hajj-stampede-mina-mecca-150924082302232.html

Agence France-Press (via The Guardian)

Witnesses to a stampede that left more than 700 people dead at the hajj in Saudi Arabia on Thursday blamed Saudi authorities and said they were afraid to continue the rituals.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/25/hajj-stampede-witnesses-blame-saudi-officials-and-police-as-king-salman-orders-review

BBC:

Saudi Arabia's King Salman has ordered a safety review for the Hajj pilgrimage after at least 717 people died in a stampede near the holy city of Mecca.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34354651

Note: That last one is from the BBC.

[oberliner]

30. Understood - but there are countless sources from around the world using the term "stampede"

Presumably, sources like Reuters, AFP, Al Jazeera, etc. would not choose such a term if it wasn't accurate.

Here's a Reuters article (with video) using the term stampede:

Hundreds killed in Haj stampede

http://www.reuters.com/video/2015/09/24/hundreds-killed-in-haj-stampede?videoId=365709883

I just don't think it's reasonable to claim that it was not a stampede when it is extremely widely reported as such.

Here's the Saudi Gazette using the term as well:

Mina stampede death toll rises to 717

http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index.cfm?method=home.regcon&contentid=20150924257655

[A HERETIC I AM]

31. Fair enough. I'm gonna delete.

[Marrah_G]

29. This is so sad

It's going to continue to happen with such large crowds.

[oneshooter]

32. No.

[marmar]

34. Wow. Just wow.

[lunamagica]

33. ...