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Tue May 22, 2012, 05:58 PM

 

For Those Who Don't Feel 'Counter-Bullying' is "Appropriate";


You don't understand much about bullies or bullying.

The vast majority of bullies only understand the threat of force. They don't give a damn about detention, suspension, admonition, or anything that 'authority' figures will do to them. Those are merely inconveniences that reinforce their perception that their target was too weak to deal directly with them, and instead went to the 'authority'. Ninety-nine times out of one hundred, the bully will ramp up their harassment of their target in order to 'prove' that they are unaffected by any such attempts to mollify them. They will then double their efforts to intimidate their target into accepting their subordinate position.

This is a 'victory' for the bully.

I know damn well that this is exactly how it works having been the victim of bullies from the age of 6 to 16.

Here's what works: You HIT them. You HUMILIATE them. You INTIMIDATE them with a greater show of force, and if that means you have big, dangerous friends, so be it.

Unfortunately, we are still animals and many of us behave that way. Bullies are no different. They are the low ranks in a civilized society, and as such are less affected by the ministrations of civilized 'authority'. Therefore, if you want to shut a bully down, as I learned to do, you have to lower yourself to their level and be uncivilized. This doesn't mean assault, it means anything that will show them that their behavior as an animal will put them in a place that actually frightens them.

NOTHING a school can do will intimidate a bully because, as I said, physical force and intimidation are the world they like to live in. Once you show them how vulnerable they can be in that world, they will start to immediately see the benefits of civility.

You'd be amazed at how immediately well-behaved and civil bullies can become once they've had the right incentive. I've seen it first-hand every single time I've put the above into practice.

So when a linebacker threatens a bully, you can bet the farm the message is received loud and clear and better behavior will ensue.

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Reply For Those Who Don't Feel 'Counter-Bullying' is "Appropriate"; (Original post)
The Doctor. May 2012 OP
ag_dude May 2012 #1
The Doctor. May 2012 #6
ag_dude May 2012 #7
The Doctor. May 2012 #9
ag_dude May 2012 #11
cbayer May 2012 #14
The Doctor. May 2012 #39
Posteritatis May 2012 #60
Aerows May 2012 #66
The Doctor. May 2012 #35
rustydog May 2012 #49
gratuitous May 2012 #12
The Doctor. May 2012 #75
sabrina 1 May 2012 #55
laundry_queen May 2012 #97
cindyperry2010 May 2012 #2
nobodyspecial May 2012 #3
The Doctor. May 2012 #8
ag_dude May 2012 #10
pintobean May 2012 #18
The Doctor. May 2012 #77
pintobean May 2012 #80
The Doctor. May 2012 #87
pintobean May 2012 #88
The Doctor. May 2012 #92
pintobean May 2012 #93
nobodyspecial May 2012 #21
The Doctor. May 2012 #26
nobodyspecial May 2012 #48
The Doctor. May 2012 #76
The Doctor. May 2012 #86
dionysus May 2012 #84
The Doctor. May 2012 #85
dionysus May 2012 #89
The Doctor. May 2012 #91
dionysus May 2012 #95
pintobean May 2012 #99
The Doctor. Jun 2012 #100
jeff47 May 2012 #70
abelenkpe May 2012 #4
The Doctor. May 2012 #23
HappyMe May 2012 #42
Comrade_McKenzie May 2012 #5
cynatnite May 2012 #13
LineLineReply ?
The Doctor. May 2012 #24
cynatnite May 2012 #28
The Doctor. May 2012 #29
cynatnite May 2012 #34
treestar May 2012 #38
Manifestor_of_Light May 2012 #47
Cave_Johnson May 2012 #64
Aerows May 2012 #67
jeff47 May 2012 #71
treestar May 2012 #83
jeff47 May 2012 #90
elehhhhna May 2012 #15
Demeter May 2012 #16
laundry_queen May 2012 #98
cbayer May 2012 #17
The Doctor. May 2012 #25
ellisonz May 2012 #41
cthulu2016 May 2012 #19
The Doctor. May 2012 #31
Selatius May 2012 #20
lumberjack_jeff May 2012 #22
KG May 2012 #27
The Doctor. May 2012 #30
KG May 2012 #32
The Doctor. May 2012 #36
ellisonz May 2012 #33
jeff47 May 2012 #69
treestar May 2012 #37
The Doctor. May 2012 #40
treestar May 2012 #44
Odin2005 May 2012 #43
HappyMe May 2012 #45
ZombieHorde May 2012 #46
rrneck May 2012 #50
NCTraveler May 2012 #51
phleshdef May 2012 #52
Zanzoobar May 2012 #53
Robb May 2012 #54
REP May 2012 #56
The Doctor. May 2012 #58
REP May 2012 #59
Edweird May 2012 #57
backscatter712 May 2012 #61
HughBeaumont May 2012 #62
silentwarrior May 2012 #63
The Doctor. May 2012 #79
Capt. Obvious May 2012 #65
The Doctor. May 2012 #74
Capt. Obvious May 2012 #81
The Doctor. May 2012 #82
Buns_of_Fire May 2012 #68
lynne May 2012 #72
just1voice May 2012 #73
bluestateguy May 2012 #78
WriteWrong May 2012 #94
RedCappedBandit May 2012 #96

Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:03 PM

1. And if you like that explanation...

...you might be interested in the neocon's justification for two wars.

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Response to ag_dude (Reply #1)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:10 PM

6. Which is a bullshit response.

 


A bully is only a bully because they have been aggressive to a weaker target.

There is exactly zero similarity between Iraq never attacking the militarily formidable US and a bully picking on a weaker kid.

I guarantee that every single poster who agrees with you has never resolved their own bully issues.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #6)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:11 PM

7. Okay, sorry, violence IS the answer.

Just as you, Bush, and Cheney have said.

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Response to ag_dude (Reply #7)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:14 PM

9. To violence? Yes.

 

Again you're attempting to apply bullshit here.

Bush and Cheney said violence is the answer to a 'possible threat'.

Once a bully faces retribution they understand for violence they have already committed, they stop with very, very rare exception.

All you are proving here is that you have no concept of the bullying issue.

So... how would YOU solve a school bully issue?

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #9)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:17 PM

11. I just ignored the idiots.

I realized it was junior high and high school, would be over, and they'd be stuck being themselves in the real world.

Dimissing their impact on you is a surprisingly effective response.

Oh, and Bush and Cheney said they were responding to violence with their violence, just like you.

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Response to ag_dude (Reply #11)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:27 PM

14. That's how I did and do handle it, and have found it quite effective.

I could not disagree with this OP more.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #14)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:47 PM

39. You are lucky that you did not deal with actual bullies.

 


Why don't you regale us with a personal anecdote of what a bully did to you and how your ignoring them 'made them stop'?

Please, there are many of us here who attempted the very same thing but for some reason the magic just wasn't there. I'm sure we'd like to hear your account.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #14)

Wed May 23, 2012, 05:18 AM

60. Please explain for the rest of us how to "ignore" being physically attacked. (nt)

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #60)

Wed May 23, 2012, 09:26 AM

66. You can't

and there is only one way to respond to being physically attacked - defending yourself!

How was that kid that Romney and his buddies held down while Romney cut all of his hair off supposed to "ignore that".

So I agree with the OP when you have a really bully problem that involves violence.

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Response to ag_dude (Reply #11)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:39 PM

35. Wow. That you could even imagine that the bullying of the Bush Administration

 

Is in any way similar to direct intervention of actual bullying says several things:

Either a) You bought the bullshit from the BA that they were 'stopping an aggressor'. or b) You think that the powerful picking on the weak is 'counter-bullying'.

That you can't make the distinction between retaliation for bullying and committing unilateral aggression.

That you still have no clue about the dynamic of bullying.


That 'just ignore them' line doesn't work with the kids who are actually bullied. Which tells everyone very clearly that you don't know the difference between people who are annoying to you and real bullies.

Anyone who has dealt with a real bully knows that ignoring them only makes them work harder to achieve a result. Also, they see it as a clear sign of submission.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, and anyone who has dealt with actual bullying knows it.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #6)

Tue May 22, 2012, 08:14 PM

49. It doesn't work every time, but it worked when I punched a bully in the nose

He left me alone after that. They will keep on bullying you, so you at least have to stand up to him-her once and give them all you got, hard, fast and with bad intent.

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Response to ag_dude (Reply #1)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:23 PM

12. You are correct, sir

But in the land of the High Church of Redemptive Violence, your position amounts to heresy.

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Response to gratuitous (Reply #12)

Thu May 24, 2012, 04:13 AM

75. There is no "Church of Redemptive Violence".

 

As has been made crystal clear in this thread, there are those that understand the reality of bullying and those that are profoundly ignorant of it.

It's been made pretty clear by the time any rational reader apprehended your post.

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Response to ag_dude (Reply #1)

Tue May 22, 2012, 09:24 PM

55. Actually the Neocons bullied this country into two wars because NO ONE stood up to them.

Imagine if someone had done what the OP suggests to some of the world's worst bullies ever?

Imagine how many people might be alive today.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #55)

Tue May 29, 2012, 01:17 AM

97. +1 nt

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:04 PM

2. some ways i agree and some i don't

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:05 PM

3. Wow, really bad advice

Escalating threats and violence is not the answer.

And, based on your post, I'm glad we don't move in the same circles.

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #3)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:11 PM

8. Then you have no concept of the psychology of a bully.

 


Sadly, I outlined it in the OP and it still went completely past you.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #8)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:15 PM

10. A person can understand you and still think you are wrong.

Though your style of reply is most certainly ironic for somebody talking about the bullying issue.

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Response to ag_dude (Reply #10)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:38 PM

18. I find the OP amusing.

From one of his posts:
I save my bullying for the bullies, liars, and assholes that ask for it.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/100255644#post82

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Response to pintobean (Reply #18)

Thu May 24, 2012, 04:40 AM

77. That's right.

 

I've been the victim of bullies for years, so I have long since stopped tolerating it against myself or others. I have absolutely no compunction about bullying bullies.

Simple harassment by empty minds on the internets is another thing. So what's your obsession with me anyway?

Lemme guess, you're just looking for a reason to alert on me because, as usual, you have exactly nothing of substance to add to this thread?

I would be very sad to live the sort of life from which I derived any kind of pleasure from stalking people on a discussion board I had little or nothing of value to add to.

So why do you persist? Just to prove there are enough petty, empty minds to hide the posts of someone you've decided to make a target of because you can't confront them with actual reason?

Whoever you are, it's just sad.

Get a life, a girl or boyfriend who actually respects you, or something else fulfilling so you don't have to be... what you are.

I feel very sad for you.

Now go ahead and alert.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #77)

Thu May 24, 2012, 05:41 AM

80. Oh, there's substance there.

You just don't want to see it because it contradicts your claims down-thread. Also, when you included liars and assholes, you really admit to being a bully. You've demonstrated an inability to determine either, but even if you could, who are you to judge?

Bad guess - I've told you before that I don't alert on you. I rarely alert. I haven't alerted on anyone in a month. I just expose what you are for others in the thread. Most know, but some may not.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #80)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:35 AM

87. You've contradicted nothing. Nor have I 'contradicted' myself at all.

 


You are essentially a coward. That is why you avoid posting any OP of your own about your own experience or real opinions. You like to just find people who actually have some kind of substance and then do your very best to undermine them.

That bullshit doesn't work on me because it's so very obvious.

You've done nothing to 'expose what I am' other than insinuate that I am something I am not. You should be a Limbaugh disciple for your mastery of the art of insinuation. What's funny? "Others" have made this observation about you as well.

Now, I know you have a nice gem through which to alert on me. I really don't give a flying fuck because I know what a sad creature you are. No, really... you're obviously lonely. Horribly so. I'm not the only one to have figured it out. You don't like me, but you can't actually explain why and point to anything I"ve said or done that makes me out to be what you insinuate. In the full reading of our exchanges, you always fail that test.

So... how long ago did he/she leave you? Why is your apartment so empty? What are you really looking for?

I'd like to help, but I know it will be easier for you to laugh and deny.



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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #87)

Mon May 28, 2012, 06:43 AM

88. It took a while to

come up with that pile of projection, denial, attempted insults and bullshit. My wife, of 24 years, says hi and she's

Again, I don't alert on you. You have plenty of people who will do that. I don't need to.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #88)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:06 PM

92. Funny that you behave other than a well-adjusted married man.

 


It's long past time that I ignored your pointless, childish, and ultimately useless sniping.

Buh-bye.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #92)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:09 PM

93. Thank you, Dr. Fraud.

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Response to ag_dude (Reply #10)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:42 PM

21. Correct. I understood what the OP was saying

I realize some share that philosophy, but I don't agree with it. Respect and lasting changes do not come through fear and physical contact. I also don't agree with spanking or paddling children for the same reason. I think that is why so many are stunted in their moral development.

People bully for reasons. Unless you uncover and resolve the underlying issues, you don't solve the problem. Perhaps the bully won't pick on you, but will definitely move on to the next target.

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Response to ag_dude (Reply #10)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:17 PM

26. If you understand me when I tell you the Earth revolves around the sun,

 

And still 'think I'm wrong', then you are merely displaying your ignorance.

It's amusing how you resort to the tactic of claiming parity between being told you are wrong and being 'bullied'. It's weak right on the face.

Tell us about your personal experience with being bullied and how you solved it.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #26)

Tue May 22, 2012, 08:11 PM

48. The earth revolves around the sun

is a verifiable, proven and scientific FACT. What you have posited is your OPINION of what works. Aside from your anecdotal experience, how has it been independently verified as true? What factual evidence do you have to back up your assertion? No matter how strongly you believe your theory to be, claiming it as fact -- equal to the earth's orbit -- doesn't make it so.

And sorry, you are not going to bully me into agreeing with you by calling me ignorant. Name calling is one of the weakest tools a bully uses.

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #48)

Thu May 24, 2012, 04:16 AM

76. So, when a bully beat the crap out of you...

 

What 'study' did you cite in order to stop them?

Bullies don't use words, they don't 'counter' your arguments with insults, they put your head in a toilet, they punch you until you bleed, and they don't stop when you try to 'convince' them they are in the wrong.

I'm done trying to convince you of anything you can't possibly understand.

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #48)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:20 AM

86. No, it's not 'verifiable' to those who cannot understand the science behind it.

 


Psychology may be a 'soft' science, but it is proven. When you are called 'ignorant', it is not 'name calling'. It is a simple, verifiable observation. I myself am 'ignorant' of many things as are we all. Your inability to understand that your 'ignorance' is a state, not an insult, is simple proof of your ignorance.

Now, I asked you a question to determine, in a fairly empirical fashion, whether you are indeed 'ignorant'.

So, what did you do to stop the bullies from bashing your head against the wall, putting you in the trash, pinning you down naked in the showers, and harassing you into abject grief?

Please, do tell.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #26)

Sun May 27, 2012, 01:01 PM

84. you're providing us some tasty irony with this thread. thank you.

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Response to dionysus (Reply #84)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:13 AM

85. And you are providing... um...

 

nothing.

That, and you apparently do not possess the ability to make simple distinctions. I'd ask you to explain the 'irony', but a) I know you can't, and b) it can't be done.

But try anyhow. I love a good laugh just like the next guy.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #85)

Mon May 28, 2012, 12:13 PM

89. you just proved my point.

as you try (poorly) to bully people around in your thread..

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Response to dionysus (Reply #89)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:03 PM

91. You just proved mine:

 

You have no idea what bullying is if you think I'm 'bullying' anyone.

This is sad. I'm sick of dealing with adult children.

Buh-bye.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #91)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:32 PM

95. maybe. but insulting everyone who dares disagree with you does nothing more than make you look

like a jerk no one wouldever want anything to do with.

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Response to dionysus (Reply #95)

Tue May 29, 2012, 06:05 AM

99. It's funny, a guy with 6 hidden posts

says those who disagree with him have behavior problems. I guess all those jurors were being childish, as well.

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Response to dionysus (Reply #95)

Mon Jun 11, 2012, 12:14 PM

100. Calling someone 'misinformed' or 'ignorant'

 

for believing the Sun revolves around the Earth is not an 'insult'.

It's an observation.

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #3)

Wed May 23, 2012, 12:06 PM

70. So the bully is beating you.

It's the 3rd attack this week. The vast majority of school administrators take a "boys will be boys", or "if I didn't see it it didn't happen" attitude.

Now what, exactly, do you do?

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:06 PM

4. My hubby was bullied in school

until he showed up with his two friends who were much larger than those who bullied him. My little brother used to get picked on too, but all his friends would scatter when his big sister would show up. It's sad. But you are right. Now, I'm not saying we should go around threatening people or belittling people or behaving in the menacing way bullies do, but sometimes just showing up in greater or larger number is all that is needed.

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #4)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:11 PM

23. It's unfortunate that sinking to 'animal' behavior is the only thing that tends to work.

 

It's interesting to note that those with personal, practical experience with bullies understand this, but those that have no such experience claim the civilized 'high ground'.

Sometimes, the only ground is the dirty ground.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #23)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:53 PM

42. True.

When I was a wee HappyMe, myself and friends were regularly accosted to and from school by a group of 3 other kids. They were 1 year older, went to a different school. One day we decided to fight back. It surprised the crap out of those bullies. They were used to knocking us down, books and homework in the street, hats/mittens stolen....
We didn't attack first. We fought back. They left us alone after that.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:10 PM

5. I will always retaliate against people.

 

Freshman year, I was called fat by a boy and I put a thumb tack in his seat the next day. He never said anything to me again.

My ex-fiancee kept sending me harassing text messages, so I hijacked all of her Internet accounts and gave them back after she promised to stop it. She did.

A supervisor at work always gives people a hard time and was always an ass to me, so I photoshopped a picture of him in a Drill Sergeant uniform and put it above the time clock. He never bothered me again.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:26 PM

13. Bullying a bully doesn't solve the problem....

After being bullied for the entire school year, I was attacked in the hallway and finally I hit back. She stopped and walked away. I never had another problem after that. I was not bullying her. I defended myself and she saw that her bullying had lost it's effectiveness.

You don't have to humilate them or bully them to get it stop. It's you sinking to their level. You don't have to do that.

When I went to school there was no such thing as an anti-bullying policy. We didn't have an authority figure to show how detrimental bullying can be to a person or their life.

My son's school has a great anti-bullying policy. He's in Jr. High where a lot of bullying starts. The teachers are trained to deal with it and they will not hesitate to bring parents in. They go out of their way get ahead of potential bullies and deal with it. They nip it early on.

Bullying a bully doesn't solve the problem. It's just a different bully and a different victim. The act remains the same.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #13)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:13 PM

24. ?

 

Where did I say to 'bully' a bully?

No, one show of force or intimidation is usually enough. Thank you for validating that.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #24)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:21 PM

28. You said lower yourself to their level...

You said to use force, intimidation and humiliation. What do you think bullying is?

I did not have to humiliate her or intimidate her. I did not use any of those bullying tactics. She attacked me and I defended myself to keep her from abusing me.

There is a huge amount of difference you're not seeing.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #28)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:26 PM

29. Bullying is chronic harassment and intimidation against a weaker person.

 

It's a very fine distinction, I'll grant, but once you resort to their tactics, it's not 'bullying' as you've balanced the 'relationship'.

Bullying is an imbalanced relationship. Fighting back is 'fighting back', not 'bullying'.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #29)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:37 PM

34. Here is what you said...

Here's what works: You HIT them. You HUMILIATE them. You INTIMIDATE them with a greater show of force, and if that means you have big, dangerous friends, so be it.

you have to lower yourself to their level and be uncivilized


Now, I know I snipped it and this is what I got out of what your OP said. In order to fight back against a bully, you have to become a bully. Turn the tables so to speak.

You want to make imbalanced relationship imbalanced with the bully as it was with you. That is what I am seeing from what you wrote.

I completely disagree with this notion. I can defend myself against a bully without turning the tables or making them feel as I felt when they were bullying me. I don't have a need for that kind of retribution. You are advocating becoming the bully so that you won't be bullied. I find this argument invalid and full of faults.

What do you think makes a bully? Why do you think a bully acts as they do? Is it possible they are themselves being bullied at home? Maybe they are trying to find a way to fight against feeling weak and ineffective themselves? Maybe this is the only way they know how to fight?

That is why I am saying that turning the tables on them as you are advocating does not work and at best is only a temporary solution. A bully's problems run way deeper than even just fighting back. They need help...serious help so that they don't continue this kind of behavior throughout their lives.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #29)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:46 PM

38. If the person is weaker, how do they become "stronger" than the bully

for a time, in order to retaliate? That just won't be the case in many instances.

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Response to treestar (Reply #38)

Tue May 22, 2012, 08:06 PM

47. A lot of kids stay small. i am one of them.

I would not fight back because i didn't want to mess up my hands since I was a musician.

My parents were pretty tall, I had skinny uncles that were six foot two on both mom and dad's side of the family; but I am five foot two and weighed 115 in high school.
I weigh more than that now, but I am still five foot two and have small bones.

Fighting back wouldn't do any good. I don't fit that fantasy narrative of kids growing up and getting big and tall and strong so they can beat up the bullies.

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Response to treestar (Reply #38)

Wed May 23, 2012, 08:23 AM

64. Big guys (like me)...

 

... often underestimate smaller folks.

A broken nose from a head butt will go a long way. Can't half ass it though...

If you aren't prepared to commit to the fight and close that distance then don't even try.

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Response to Cave_Johnson (Reply #64)

Wed May 23, 2012, 09:32 AM

67. I used that tactic

Against this big boy that was harassing me in the sixth grade. I warned him to let go of my hands, he didn't, and he got a bloody nose for it from me, a much smaller girl!

He didn't mess with me anymore.

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Response to treestar (Reply #38)

Wed May 23, 2012, 12:14 PM

71. They don't have to be stronger.

Bullies are looking for weak targets that pose no threat to them. If you demonstrate that you are able to hurt them they will move on to other prey.

It doesn't matter that the bully is stronger, because the bully isn't looking for a "stand-up fight". He's a coward. He's looking for someone who will just curl up into a ball and take the abuse.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #71)

Sun May 27, 2012, 12:55 PM

83. How does one "demonstrate they are going to hurt" the bully?

Tell school authorities or adults? Hurt them in some surreptitious way or some nonphysical way?

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Response to treestar (Reply #83)

Mon May 28, 2012, 06:34 PM

90. No. Hit them.

The blow will probably do negligible damage, but the bully will usually move on to another target.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:30 PM

15. the linebacker threatening the bully, imo, is an effective use of

peer pressure and calling the bully out.

even nonlinebackers can do it. safety in numbers. just speak up.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:33 PM

16. People like to pretend we are all descended from angels

When all we are is a more prolific, aggressive, and successful predator than any other animal on the planet.

While some humans may aspire to higher things beyond reality, to forget the animal within is to ask to get creamed. Or to be enslaved and subservient to a protector, as women were. Whether it was in silk or in rags.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #16)

Tue May 29, 2012, 02:12 AM

98. Yep.

And I think a large part of the problem with Democrats is because they (not all, some, as evidenced within this thread) truly believe that there is good in everyone and that only if people had enough guidance, enough love, enough education, enough information then they, too, will see the light and become progressive, stop bullying, become reformed characters - whatever.

And then there are those of us who believe that some people are just simply incapable of that kind of growth - their brains are wired differently and you can't fix it. The only way to deal with them is to deal with them within the confines of their own ways of thinking. And in my experience (and I grew up with a bully for a father) standing up to them with their own tools (threats, intimidation, whatever) works every time - and sometimes even gets them to come around to a rational point of view. I don't understand exactly why, but have had the experience several times.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:36 PM

17. Wow. I would love to respond to you reasonably, but, frankly

you really come across as a bully both in the OP and in responses to those that merely disagree with you.

As per the professionals who have done real research on this and have some fact based information, I think it's best to just walk away.

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Response to cbayer (Reply #17)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:14 PM

25. Ummm... yeah.

 


So telling someone who obviously has no experience with an issue that they are clueless is 'bullying'.

No, you're here just to wade in, strike a blow, and run away.

Since I'm not a bully, that doesn't work on me.

Now, let's have this 'real research'.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #25)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:50 PM

41. "Since I'm not a bully, that doesn't work on me."

Actually, you are a bully, to the point that you've threatened another poster on an internet message board.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11727993#post219

Response to ellisonz (Reply #213)
Thu Jan 12, 2012, 01:52 PM
The Doctor. This message was hidden by Jury decision.
219. Your perception of gun-owners is so twisted there's no reasoning with you.

Last edited Thu Jan 12, 2012, 01:56 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)
You're full of it and you know it. I've proven it.

You have no support at all for your twisted characterization of people you don't know and have never met. There is nothing 'honest' or 'earnest' about deliberately characterizing others as 'crazy' while refusing to discuss or debate the actual point of the thread.

Again, here is the challenge you ran away from:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=8253

I'm going to put that to you in every gun thread I find you posting in to demonstrate your abject lack of reason and willingness to engage in any kind of constructive discourse.

It is very disturbing to me that someone can be so convinced of something they can't actually demonstrate because their perception filters prevent them from actually reading, thinking, understanding, and applying reason of any kind. You're just the sort of person who behaves the way you do only because the internet allows you to get away with it. If we were face-to-face, you would actually feel the shame of deliberately refusing to back up your own assertions. But the internet allows you to believe you are something you are not.

I'd love to meet in person and have this exact discussion someday. We'd put it on youtube and then we'd all see who the irrational one is. Thing is, I know to a certainty that you would behave very differently in person... especially if you knew you were being video-recorded.

Assuming you are no coward, I'll let you know when I can come around your area. We can talk terms and make a nice lunch out of the occasion or something.

Sound good?

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:40 PM

19. Well, this worked at Gitmo

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #19)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:30 PM

31. No one stopped the bullies at GITMO.

 

Or the bullies in the administration that created the policy of bullying.

What, precisely, is your point here?

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:42 PM

20. I disagree with the term counter-bullying. A credible "deterrent" is sufficient to stop a bully.

The point of such a show of force, of a "deterrent," is first and foremost to stop a would-be attacker or somebody who has attacked you before.

It would be like building a nuclear weapons stockpile to deter a military superpower from attacking and invading you. You don't use that kind of force unless you are seeing his missiles coming at you.

In my mind, "counter-bullying" would be giving license for "pre-emptive war" against a known bully, and I don't support such a position and I haven't supported it in any iteration for more than a few years now.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 06:53 PM

22. In JR high, I joined the wrestling team.

Whatever degree of bullying that I experienced (as a medium-large but unaggressive kid) prior to that point stopped. Further, because wrestlers come in all sizes, I learned from coaches that it was justified to stick up for the smaller teammates when they were being bullied. Being empowered to stick up for the smaller kids did it for me. I don't take myself especially seriously, and consequently don't stick up for myself as often as I should, but people learned to not pick on anyone else around me. Even most bullies are good enough with math to walk away from that situation.

Defending the truly defenseless is a primary reason that I spend my volunteer time with the developmentally disabled.

Ideally, the school administration will do a good job of preventing it, but failing that, it's fully appropriate to counter it in the language that bullies understand.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)


Response to KG (Reply #27)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:29 PM

30. Not one for making distinctions, are you?

 

So stopping an 'asshole' from being an asshole makes you an asshole?

Here in the real world, it often makes you an 'anti-asshole'.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #30)


Response to KG (Reply #32)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:41 PM

36. So, nothing intelligent or salient to say?

 

No questions? No points countering anything in the OP?

Just mindless insults for no other reason than to put someone down?


Let me ask you this: When that first kid finally fought back against you after all the taunting and tormenting.... How did you finally feel?

It seems you still have some pretty sore feelings.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:33 PM

33. You're wrong...

...Love conquers all. We should love bullies, not stoop to their level.

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Response to ellisonz (Reply #33)

Wed May 23, 2012, 11:58 AM

69. Saying "I love you" while getting your head dunked in a toilet is not very effective. (nt)

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:43 PM

37. That legitimizes what they do

And what if you are smaller than they are? Hitting back doesn't do much good then.

If they are that bad and irredeemable as you say, we'd have to lock them up permanently. Reform school comes to mind.

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Response to treestar (Reply #37)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:49 PM

40. I was smaller.

 

And it did work.

What I find most interesting here is how those with actual, personal experience with real bullies understand their mentality while those without such experience do not.

What did your bullies do to you, and how did you stop them?

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #40)

Tue May 22, 2012, 08:01 PM

44. I didn't do a thing

Though they quit after a while. Minor stuff, though.

One kicked me sitting from behind me. Maybe the teacher saw it and yelled at her.

Another threw rock laden snowballs at me on the way home from school. A boy. I was a girl and wasn't exactly the type who would beat up a boy or succeed at that. He just got tired of doing that eventually.

Now had I lived in modern times, I might not have been too embarrassed to say something to the school teachers or parents. Don't know what my parents would have done, but doubt it would have been "well, hit this boy with a snowball." Snowballs thrown by me would not teach anyone a lesson.

Then there's the non-physical bullying, where they make fun of your clothes, etc. I did not have the social power to return that. Physically hitting them would have gotten me in trouble, I imagine.

What of the skinny and nerdy kid? So they go up to some bully and hit him? That's not going to work. They'd have to do something more subtle or clever.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 07:54 PM

43. + Infinity. I hate when people punish kids for defending themselves.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #43)

Tue May 22, 2012, 08:02 PM

45. Thank you.



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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 08:03 PM

46. Violence may be one way to make a bully move on to someone else,

but you cannot say there is no other way to handle a bully with any certainty. Individual counseling may make many bullies become more peaceful. I think we should try getting counseling for bullies, and there victims, and see what happens.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 08:20 PM

50. Bullies don't want a fight.

They want an easy victory. Once they understand that they are about to start something that will never end they will leave you alone.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 08:37 PM

51. Violence and psychological abuse is not the answer.

"Here's what works: You HIT them. You HUMILIATE them. You INTIMIDATE them with a greater show of force, and if that means you have big, dangerous friends, so be it."

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 09:08 PM

52. I wouldn't call it "counter-bullying". I just call it "taking up for myself" and you are correct....

...its usually the only way to get any real results.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 09:21 PM

53. I see nothing wrong with that outlook

 

Your timing, however, seems to be at least a couple decades off.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 09:23 PM

54. At what cost?

I mean I get you. But you start telling everyone to get in the mud, you've got a world of pigs on your hands.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 09:25 PM

56. "Every single time" implies more than once - that it didn't work the first time

It's easy to be tough online. It's a lot harder in real life.

I dealt with a bully that way when I was 12. Then I grew up.

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Response to REP (Reply #56)

Wed May 23, 2012, 02:53 AM

58. Not sure what you're failing to grasp here.

 

Yes, "Every single time" I've used a direct counter-bullying approach, it has worked.

It worked the first time, it worked the second, and it worked "Every single time".

If you are having comprehension issues, I don't know what else to say.


As far as your own experience, did it work, or did you fail?

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #58)

Wed May 23, 2012, 03:38 AM

59. When I was 12 and didn't know other ways, yes it worked

Only needed the one time, though.

As an adult, I have found far more effective remedies.

The issue isn't on my end; you imply that you have needed to apply your remedy over and over again, which leaves the impression that it's not as effective as you are claiming.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Tue May 22, 2012, 11:32 PM

57. I agree with you on all points.

 

I find the psycho-babble nonsense in some the the replies particularly amusing. It's obvious that the vast majority of the 'do nothing' crowd has never been bullied.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Wed May 23, 2012, 05:44 AM

61. I stopped one bully at school with a swift kick to the nuts.

In my experience, bullies only respond to force and dominance. Nothing. Else. Works.

Bullying is physical and psychological abuse, that causes lasting psychological damage. A bully-victim has the right to exercise self-defense and end this abuse by any means necessary. Including violence.

Though I would disagree with the OP in that I wouldn't call it counter-bullying. It's just self-defense, using the only thing that works to make a bully stop - force.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Wed May 23, 2012, 06:11 AM

62. Yeah, and I would have been expelled . . . .

. . . . all for being an unwilling participant in some fuck's anger management issues.

Teacher's kids, big names in the city, always ran in packs. I had no big friends to counter them and using weapons (which would have been my only hope against these rednecks, athletes and stoners) is illegal.

Assault is a crime and has to be dealt with that way, by adults. Something no adult would put up with in the real world should not be regarded as a "rite of passage" for kids.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Wed May 23, 2012, 07:23 AM

63. The Bullying Ritual

From my own experience bullies follow a set ritual when selecting a victim. Like Arnold Achwarzenegger searching for Linda Hamilton in the film "Terminator", a bully will scan the area for an available victim. Once the victim has been selected and targeted there is a feeling-out stage.

Bullies, you see are often cautious and insecure. They are similar to boxers trading feints instead of punches at the start of the bout. The bully, like the boxer wants to see how strong the intended victim is. They are not looking for an opponent; just someone who wont fight back.

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Response to silentwarrior (Reply #63)

Thu May 24, 2012, 04:58 AM

79. Excellent piece of insight.

 

Absolutely correct as I've found in both experience and training.

The sad part is that in looking to transfer their own insecurities, they sometimes create monsters.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Wed May 23, 2012, 08:31 AM

65. I see what "you" did there

This is a "good" thread

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Reply #65)

Thu May 24, 2012, 01:30 AM

74. You "Failed" to put your "Thumbs Up"

 

in "Quotes".

I'm glad to see what this site lacks in maturity, it makes up for in "Wit".

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #74)

Thu May 24, 2012, 06:50 AM

81. "Lame"

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Reply #81)

Thu May 24, 2012, 05:18 PM

82. You're quite sharp. That's pretty much exactly what I was saying.

 


But you already knew that contributing nothing of actual substance to a thread would beget such a view of your posts.

Good for you. You should go have a cookie.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Wed May 23, 2012, 11:26 AM

68. Sometimes your inner berserker is your best friend...

...sometimes, your only friend at the time. Surrounding yourself with bigger, stronger friends works to a point, but they're not going to be around you 24/7. Being a skinny, nerdy, four-eyed, pimply shrimp usually put me in the crosshairs of the bullies.

The taunts and insults, I could deal with. I was always taught that "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me." I didn't like it, but getting the crap beat out of me wasn't on my agenda.

But twice, both times in junior high school (once in Oklahoma, once in Florida), it went beyond taunts and insults, and there was no one around to stand up for me. That's when my "inner friend" exposed himself. I refer to it as my "Popeye Moment" -- "That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more."

In the five or ten seconds the "fight" lasted, neither of us did any real damage to the other (other than a pair of broken glasses both times, which I caught hell for at home).

But the bullying stopped.

(Unfortunately, I was still a skinny, nerdy, four-eyed, pimply shrimp, but at least the pimples went away eventually.)

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Wed May 23, 2012, 12:15 PM

72. +1,000. But, you can't bully a bully. It's called defending yourself -

- and, sadly, that's the only tactic that will work. Unfortunately, the bully will usually move on to a lesser victim but that victim will need to learn to take up for him/herself, as well.

For those who say they would have been kicked out of school for defending themselves, may I add "So What"? I told my kids to always report a bully first but - if the bully struck the second time - to defend themselves and I'd back them 100%, with an attorney, if needed.

My brother - younger and much smaller - was the victim of an older bully. And it continued until I beat the crap out of that bully on the school bus. BTW, the bully's father was the bus driver and I almost got kicked off. Again, SO WHAT??? He never beat on my brother again. And, trust me, no one ever even looked cross-eyed at me!

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Wed May 23, 2012, 03:13 PM

73. Agreed if someone's life isn't on the line

 

For instance: repukes only respond to being attacked politically, they have no interest in doing anything good for anyone, only protecting their own ability to rip people off.

However, try attacking a gang of "bullies" with force and watch how many people end up seriously injured or worse.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Thu May 24, 2012, 04:54 AM

78. I oppose counter-bullying, but I am for self-defense

It is all fine and good to demand that school authorities take bullying seriously through preventative and punitive measures, but when a bully is assaulting a boy or girl, I don't think the student should just have to sit there and get beat up.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:30 PM

94. There is a profound difference between force and violence. Force is appropriate.

 

Some people have a hard time telling the difference.

The only thing that has controlled bullies, ever, is bigger, more powerful bullies. That's why every government holds a monopoly on military force and police power, or tries to.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 11:49 PM

96. It's called self-defense, and it is fine IMO.

Hardly the be-all end-all solution to bullying, though.

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