General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsShow me what a police state looks like! (Graphic! Dial-up warning!) Updated with livestream link
Last edited Wed May 23, 2012, 12:44 AM - Edit history (8)
May 19 and 20, Chicago. Peaceful protesters engaging in their 1st Amendment rights.
Occupy Wall Street ?@OccupyWallStNYC
Dear MSM: OWS does not "clash with the police" we are unarmed, peaceful protesters who are savagely attacked by the police. #MSM #noNATO
Never forget: Roid cops are a distraction to get Occupy to fight cops and not the 1%. Strategize. March on your favorite bank and hurt the 1% when their mad dogs hurt YOU.
The first few pics are what cops did to a peaceful, emotional Veteran's rally, where they renounced their medals and the infinite war machine and budget, the dishonorable use of soldiers to steal oil for the 1%, etc. Cops lined up several deep and made dispersal orders against an utterly peaceful 1st Amendment assembly, then beat and shoved those who resisted slowly out of the area, nearly causing some to be trampled. It's entirely upon the cops. At about 56:15 on the left, I believe that's the short-haired photographer seen below with a bleeding head wound; Freedom comments "you're bleeding"...so that's where he got it, for being peaceful. Cops even shoved the shit out of the pistashio-capped NLG Observers.
Link to recorded livestream taken just inside the mob of cops seen in the next three pics. Set the timer to 50:00 and play:
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/22742223
And this:
'NATO war machine responsible for global violence', blaming protesters is ridiculous:
LRAD sound cannon:
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)country has come to.
1monster
(11,012 posts)the '20s and '30s.
I guess the bastards (1%) have to be fought back every other generation or so. Chicago cops have a history of rioting against peaceful demonstrators and turning the protest into something dreadful.
niyad
(112,053 posts)Archae
(46,246 posts)Oh yeah.
Back in 1968, I was 8 years old and saw on the news "Daley's Boys" playing "Beat up the Hippies."
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)And
RueVoltaire
(84 posts)Response to Archae (Reply #3)
Fire Walk With Me This message was self-deleted by its author.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)I did not learn about them until I got my Children's Encyclopedia of American History the next year. But I was aware of the Prague Spring, and seeing the pictures and videos of the crowds in Czechoslovakia surrounding the paddy wagon containing Alexander Dupcek and demanding his release. And that was a Good Thing, because the People (of Czechoslovakia) were protesting against an unjust government.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)I don't remember who gave it to me. It's an amazing rundown of that amazing year all over the world.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)I looked through it at a library once, but I should really have my own copy.
I have a particular fascination with 1968, in part because it was a year that really stuck in my memory, a "best of times and worst of times" year, both inside and outside of my own little world.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)The way everything felt. All the joy and expansiveness was let out, like a big balloon deflating. Or, that was how all the adults around me reacted.
It's a great read, Art. I think you'll enjoy it. I should read it again, come to think of it.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)I was living in a very small, very sheltered town at the time, so there was undoubtedly a disconnect with a lot of those events that were far away. We had a family friend who often took us places, and she seemed to be always upbeat and never talked about politics or events outside of Arkansas. My friend's father would also take me to different places as well, and he always seemed to be cheerful as well and mainly discussed sports with us.
But I do remember a distinct change between the end of school in May and the beginning of school in late August. In late May, there was "Bobby fever", with just about every kid in my class saying that his/her parents were going to vote for Bobby Kennedy. In August, however, the mood had become quite somber, with some kids saying their parents were going to (grudgingly) vote for Humphrey. while others were saying their parents were voting for Wallace. There weren't too many Nixon supporters among my group. At any rate, the state ended up being one of 5 Southern states to vote for Wallace (Boo! Hiss!), but the state also re-elected its progressive Republican governor, Winthrop Rockefeller, and its liberal Democratic US Senator, J. William Fulbright. It was quite a schizophrenic year for Arkansas politics, to say the least.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)for the Kennedy campaign and left me to look after my brother who was a toddler.
That year was weird for me because I'd skipped a grade and landed in junior high, gone to El Salvador for a couple of months without my mother and was torn between my reading of 19th century novels and white gogo boots. lol
But, the day Bobby was shot, I'd gone to downtown San Jose with Mom to walk her precincts. It was so hot, I still remember it was airless, like an oven. And being Mom, she had two precincts to cover so we got home really tired to a late supper. And things went downhill from there. She was out of commission for days.
It was a huge deal in our family. My favorite uncle, younger than Mom, was also a big supporter and he was devastated. His response was to become a Republican. He was only 20 when JFK was killed and now this, maybe he figured he didn't want to wait around for Round Three. But, he became very bitter after that and for a long time. He was my surrogate father and the change in him was startling and even oppressive in some ways. He is a very private person and I can only imagine how much pain he was in if he let us see even that much of it.
My mom was also devastated. She just didn't hold things together as well as she had been and slipped into alcoholism for about seven years. Can't chalk it up to that event entirely but for sure there was the sense in our house that the center had not held and for some time, we were adrift.
I don't remember knowing about other places that year. My teachers may have tried to bring world events into the classroom but the pall around our little group was so heavy, I don't think I took much of it in beside the mechanical stuff needed to get through the school year. I don't remember Dr. King's death but do remember we stopped eating at the table that summer and took our meals on trays on the sofa in front of the television.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)My memory of the Bobby Kennedy assassination was one of going to my friend's house on the morning of June 6 and finding him and his sisters sitting around the TV crying their eyes out.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)My sons were born in '66 and '68, I gave them each a copy.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)I had a low opinion of the police before that and it got much lower after that.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Do not underestimate its positive effect.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)pricks who represent their over lords with a zeal that screams fascism.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)All respect to the freedom fighters of the 60s!
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)to defuse violence rather than to worsen it.
There are many things that the police could do to make violence by protesters or large groups of people less likely. Wearing armor and working in military formation are not among them.
just1voice
(1,362 posts)It's true but the police are pawns for their order-givers and are hired specifically to be that.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)In the future, we need to ask questions about the candidates for order-giver with regard to their views on police brutality.
It is our own fault that we have not made this an issue.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)boppers
(16,588 posts)What's the death count up to, while privileged college kids compare their inconvenient protest experiences to any actual police-state kind of brutality?
Oh, zero still?
Nevermind.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)that it doesn't fit?
A cop raping someone wouldn't even be reported because all that would happen is cops and their bootlicks would blame the victim and the cop would get away with it because they're a special privileged class. You know, the same thing that happens when they beat the dogshit out of innocent protesters.
Are we counting the federal government in murdered or vanished permanently? Because they pretty much admit to it.
Rapes ain't necessarily part of the definition of police state. They happen, yeah. But they happen now. Murders and disappearances aren't either, thought they happen too. And when those are happening in the open the usual suspects will be screaming "Well yeah murders and rapes, but not MASS murders and rapes! Whiners!"
It's taking a huge amount of willpower just to remain remotely civil.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Some people get really pissed at their order not being right at Starbucks.
Others get pissed because their entire family has been killed, and dropped on their door step, in bloody, rotting pieces.
I am annoyed by people who think the two are similar, or related.
So, in that spectrum, how many were killed? Or had a bad latte?
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)You complain about hyperbole about a police state, but you have no compunctions about going to the other extreme. The brain damage inflicted on Scott Olsen by Oakland cops is just like getting a bad latte? Really?
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)boppers
(16,588 posts)A concussion or a laceration is a long way from death.
Unless you're George Zimmerman, of course.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Two Iraq War Vets, eg, were nearly killed, one 80 something year old woman who remembers Nazi Germany, I'll take her view of what happened to her. She was pulled to safety by protesters, but her interview later was enlightening as to what her thoughts are on the state of our militarized police today and her memories of a different time. A very brave woman.
At least three cars rammed into protesters sending several to the hospital, one this weekend driven by a cop. We do not know the condition of the person who was reported to be seriously injured, the cop was not arrested.
People in wheelchairs, one who was unable to breathe after being tear-gassed and left in the middle of the road, unable to leave, saved again by protesters, no police helped. And when people went to help Scott Olsen, the cops shot at THEM, preventing them from getting to him.
I could go on, but personally I think I've seen enough to convince me that someone in authority needs to step in, as requested by the UN, to protect the American people from the police, BEFORE someone dies.
There was a report over the weekend that a protester had died, thankfully that turned out not to be true, the person was injured.
No one in this country should end up in the hospital at the hands of the police whose salaries they pay to protect them, simply for going to a protest. The fact that so many have, is a disgrace.
provis99
(13,062 posts)starroute
(12,977 posts)America is still wealthy enough to bribe most of the middle class into acquiescence. More negative but still relatively mild repressive tactics are reserved for the poor and include stop-and-frisk, widescale imprisonment of young men, and threats of loss of food and housing benefits.
What you're seeing on the streets of Chicago is the second stage of repression, which gets pulled out only in times of actual civil unrest. It is based on the assumption that if you can beat up or arrest a lot of middle class kids in a very public manner, they will eventually get discouraged and go back to their video games. Show trials for people like Bradley Manning (and Julian Assange, if they ever get their hands on him) are also part of this tactic of criminalizing dissent.
We haven't seen third-world style disappearances and torture because so far they haven't been necessary -- but if they were, there would be nothing in our current system to prevent them from happening.
That is the basic logic of a police state: The police can pretty much do anything they want to without being questioned. They can say, "We had information these people were making Molotov cocktails" or "We heard someone would be carrying an IED in a backpack," and that gives them license to break in without a warrant, arrest people and keep them incommunicado for three days, or use violence to force peaceful crowds to disperse.
And it's the existence of that logic -- and not the level of actual atrocity -- that defines when you've moved into a police state and are no longer under the rule of law.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)CrispyQ
(36,112 posts)lib2DaBone
(8,124 posts)..but Mr. Obama did sign NDAA late on New Years Eve when no one was paying attention.
It's just a matter of time until that tool is pulled out of the handbag of oppression.
I also look for TSA to be armed and checkpoints set up on the Interstate Rest Areas.
randome
(34,845 posts)starroute
(12,977 posts)You'd be amazed at how different the world looks once you stop worrying about the things the authorities want you to worry about and start worrying about the stuff they're trying to hide behind the curtain.
Among other things, there's no way to take action against the fake threats, which is what leaves the people who buy into them too paralyzed to get out of bed in the morning.
In contrast, there are plenty of ways to take action against the real ones, and that in itself can be amazingly energizing.
It's funny how that works.
randome
(34,845 posts)All the fake terror threats were just icing on the cake for them.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)being willing to give up your freedom to travel without being harassed by the government.
I'm so not scared of what the government tells me I should be scared of, that I want to minimize the number of police we have except in areas where there is high crime, like Chicago eg, but where the police look the other as they did this weekend, while children are being murdered so they can 'crack some peaceful protester skulls' (caught on video just so you know).
I am far more likely to be harmed by our police than by foreign terrorists, as were Scott Olsen and Kayvan Sabeghi, who both survived the scary Iraqis but came home and were both nearly killed by the Oakland Police.
I would like to remove the useless TSA from our airports, and now they are moving into malls and other places, as predicted.
Are you really so scared that you are willing to give up your freedoms? That must be hard.
just1voice
(1,362 posts)Also, herding and corralling peaceful protesters and innocent bystanders by the 100s and holding them for 24+ hours without food, water or medication is torture. Not to mention beating, pepper spraying, arresting reporters, tasering, being tied up, etc...
Torture and people whom fully support it are free to do so in America as we the people are told to look ahead and don't look back.
BULLSHT
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)two of them committed perjury last week, lied under oath in the first two OWS cases in NYC. They were proven to be the liars most already knew they were when video was produced showing that not only did lie under oath, but they made two false arrests which they knew to be false when they filed their charges.
Nothing will happen to them, as you pointed out, I am told, because they supposedly have some kind of immunity. I do hope they can be sued however.
do things have to get for people like you to decide that we don't want this kind of shit going on in OUR country? Because for me, this is too much. WAY too much.
You may sit around and wait for things to get so bad that people do get "vanished" before you say anything, but I won't. None are so blind as those who refuse to see, and the handwriting is right there on the wall about where we are headed if we don't stand up and say "Enough".
But like I said, YOU can sit around and wait for it to get that bad, but many of us will not.
boppers
(16,588 posts)I don't think 50 people, without leadership, and established control systems, is a safe group.
I do not trust humans.
Even with 50 people, I don't think a KKK lynch mob should have a "right to assemble".
Perhaps you trust a KKK lynch mob. I do not.
Once enough people assemble, and they start to act like pack creatures, it's time for them to disperse.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Or on people incarcerated for years because of lying cops? See just last week re the first OWS case to make it to court, and then the second one. Cops commit perjury on the stand, willing to help disappear protesters to one of our 'humane' prisons'. The only reason they failed was because of citizen journalists who had video showing they were lying, that they made false arrests and the cases were dismissed.
The cops wanted it made illegal to photograph them. They lost that battle last week, FOR NOW.
I guess you want to wait until it has gone so far it will be too late to do anything about it. For many Muslims of course, that already happened, you can't bring people back from the dead. You can't undo the devastating effects of torture or years of detention for no reason other you are of a certain ethnicity. But hey, they are not US. Of course throughout history whenever a government has its willingness to treat 'other people' so brutally and so unfairly, eventually it comes to their home countries. And the targets of that same mindset will always be the dissenters.
The very fact that we are not quite there yet, as far as Americans are concerned, even with the signs we already see, is BECAUSE OF THE PROTESTERS, and the courageous patriotic attorneys like the NLG, and the attorneys who got the NDAA altered to PREVENT what you say has not happened yet.
It was about to happen, but Americans, thank God, are fighting hard against what has succeeded in other countries, not so long ago. THAT is why you can say you just said, NOT because they are not trying to control the people, because of brave people who refuse to allow it.
Thank a protester today, for making it possible for you make the statements you just made. Because without them, you would be like so many other people asking yourself 'how did this happen to my country'. Thankfully others are doing the job for you of preventing it. Prevention is always better than cure.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)It's 'far more comforting to close you eyes, fingers firmly plunged into ears, and pretend it has nothing to do with them.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)and there are no worries about genetically modified salmon.
No use in arguing with them.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)And while you are at it, go to YouTube, and in the search button, list "santa cruz" plus expressions "military" + "armored vehicles."
Why are endless flat cars of armored cars, drones, tanks et al being transferred from Southern Calif to Northern California?
Either there is some political hanky panky with a senator needing to boost freight business between San Francisco and Afghanistan via the Port of San Francisco (the stuff is produced far south of San Francisco - the port that ships it out should be Port of Los Angeles)
or the powers that be have some real major shit heading the way of the major population centers.
quakerboy
(13,893 posts)If there is no official record how would we know? I do know that I see stories about the police mudering unarmed civilians on a regular basis, and then no more is ever said about it, except a few months later there might be a minor page 23 type news story about how the policeman was exonerated by the review board.
Granted, that is not for political protest. But it is still happening on a seemingly regular basis
I will give you that our police are better about using nonlethal violence against protestors than those in your average dictatorship. But their aggression is still unnecessary. And the whole picture is still quite clearly that of our police forces becoming less and less accountable for the actions they choose to take against those they are supposed to be protecting. And it is disturbing to some of us.
reACTIONary
(5,747 posts)coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)called myself a Democrat.
Shame on the Chicago PD, shame on Rahm and Obama and shame on the American people for allowing their youth to be sacrificed on the altar of the 1%.
TBF
(31,892 posts)imagine leaving this country. Now I am married to someone with dual citizenship and looking for the right opportunity to leave (or at least get to California - his company has an office there as well as several in overseas locations). I don't think it is going to get better anytime soon.
micraphone
(334 posts)Some of them look like they are ENJOYING it....
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Over in Los Angeles, we're used to smiling cops:
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)...sounds like a harmless Playboy photo spread, lol! But those smiles are deceptive, as we've seen how brutal they can be. And I've seen them push you around, Fire, with no justification at all.
We're going to be in for an interesting summer. Hope to see you out there again soon. We have a good contingent of DUers doing #Occupy L..A. actions!
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)micraphone
(334 posts)Looks like beating up the hippies is SOP nowadays - and a pleasurable pastime.
ClayZ
(8,623 posts)He likes being in the second row of HELL! CREEPY!
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)''Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.'' ~Isaac Asimov
Enrique
(27,461 posts)dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)I grabbed that one too..
I hope that pic keeps cropping up again and again.
arikara
(5,562 posts)Could use it to attract tourism I guess.
FirstLight
(13,341 posts)my dear FWWM thank you for bringing this to the forefront...
while I know that voting for Obama is better than the alternative...we still have serious work to do with our own HUMAN RIGHTS
this is just horrible
vaberella
(24,634 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Just fuming RAGE.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)blithely dispatches drones to kill terrorists disguised as children or that jokes about not being able to find those danged WMDs under office furniture.
geardaddy
(24,923 posts)That's battery right there.
The Wizard
(12,465 posts)pacalo
(24,721 posts)is creepy -- especially when protesters have been peaceful & compliant. It's just as creepy that it is the public servants who are doing the assaulting on the people they swore to serve & protect. And we're paying their salaries to attack people who have done nothing wrong.
I really like the picture of the guy holding up his arm...
and the shot of the crowd under the el...
They are really afraid of us to go to this extreme.
Good to see you, Fire Walk.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)Just substitute 'cop rage' for 'road rage.'
But police training is supposed to teach cops to put emotions aside...and if this is the result, they're failing miserably. At least, from our perspective. From another perspective, it's all just fine and dandy...
pacalo
(24,721 posts)Has police training changed since Homeland Security took over? We're seeing so much meanness & violence from police officers, from traffic stops to peaceful protests.
TBF
(31,892 posts)maybe there have been significant changes to police departments since then. From photos I've seen here it looks like some are getting military-style equipment, etc ... Looking back historically years from now I'm sure 9/11 and homeland security/the Patriot Act will be shown to be a definite turning point in this country.
ETA - Of course when I talked to my mom about Occupy she talked about the kids who were killed at Kent State when she was young. So, perhaps just a more prevalent attitude now - but it happened in the 60s too.
eppur_se_muova
(36,222 posts)No other group in the country riots more often or more dangerously than the police.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)PufPuf23
(8,678 posts)The cops are pathetic and anti-American.
meaculpa2011
(918 posts)create disorder. They're here to preserve disorder."
Meiko
(1,076 posts)does anyone know? There is usually some kind of trigger. My guess is that the police got too aggressive, which is usually the case, the protesters responded and game on. The police are responsible for this. They are charged with maintaining order not instigating a riot. You can see how they are putting pressure on the crowd and forcing a conflict. They are assholes but their orders came from somewhere higher up.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)and followed FB and Twitter feeds from various sources.
The first photos of riot cops, six+ deep, is from afternoon yesterday, when there was a completely peaceful and emotionally moving presentation from several Veterans who were throwing away their war medals because having been used to steal oil and line the pockets of the 1% is not honorable. Scott Olsen participated. There should be video on youtube by now, many people said how emotionally moving it was.
Then intel came in about hundreds of riot cops on the move. They began lining up at this rally as it continued, then afterward, when they were several deep, demanded the crowd disperse, that they were unlawful and would be met with arrest, force, chemical agents, and various "less-lethal" technologies (bet Scott Olsen loved to hear that). Some protesters left; many stood their ground, and cops eventually used force and bludgeoning to drive the protesters back.
I watched OccupyFreedomLA's livestream on ustream.tv. She knew what was developing, and that if cops managed to scare the protesters that some or many could be trampled (by cops as well). She and others -were- very nearly trampled a couple of times, as cops repeatedly beat them back. It was terrible to witness, having been in the same sort of situation (but lesser) in LA. Hell, Freedom was there that day as well, March 17, or "M17"; see the Video and Multimedia section for the video "speak truth to power" or close...
Cops were entirely to blame. They showed up to a peaceful, legal, 1st Amendment rally and proceeded to give illegal, unConstitutional orders and then forced and beat everyone out of the area. Period.
randome
(34,845 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)And you.
DLevine
(1,788 posts)fasttense
(17,301 posts)Watching corporate liar's media, you would think there were only a couple thousand protesters. But 6+ blocks of 4 lanes of highway filled with people does not add up to only a couple thousand protesters.
starroute
(12,977 posts)This depends on how closely packed they are, with stationary crowds typically being much denser than marchers.
But a total of 15,000-20,000 people sounds plausible and about in line with what I heard livestreamers guessing yesterday.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,129 posts)protesters.
What awesome role models.
The look on some of their faces............
Magoo48
(4,652 posts)Yes, the Black And Blue Gang is huge, armed, and dangerous. We The People hire this gang, arm this gang, and pay this gang. Sounds sorta weird don't ya think? When ordered to turn their deadly arms upon us, how many will obey? We'll see. Let's hope it doesn't ever come to that...
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)kick for truth
99Forever
(14,524 posts)The only question left, is just how long will We the People allow this police mob violence to continue?
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)At some point the police are going to need to make a choice. Either they are on the side of their peers or they are paid lackeys for the one percent.
Javaman
(62,394 posts)Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)We should not have any police.
I think we need a whole new system for dealing with criminals.
randome
(34,845 posts)The police were deployed to keep protesters from taking a certain path. Sorry to say this, but a city has every right to set rules for where mass groups of people can go. Otherwise, you would be free to hold a protest inside a day care center or a church.
A police state is typically defined as law enforcement thugs being able to demand papers of you, search your home without a warrant, etc. We are not in a police state.
Granted, abuses do sometimes occur. On both sides. The police also stopped 3 would-be terrorists from throwing a Molotov cocktail party for themselves. They showed remarkable restraint when a protester threw a bucket at them.
Any time you have two large groups of people set up against one another, shit happens.
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)A day care center or church could probably be defined as private property. Keeping protesters from using certain streets smacks of "Free Speech Zones".
As to having papers demanded of you and searching your home without a warrent, that happens every time somebody is pulled over for DWB or DWH (Driving While Hippie). And the initial raid on the Bridgeport was apparently warrentless.
randome
(34,845 posts)I'm sure there are legal exceptions for situations of imminent danger.
I have never been pulled over for DWH. But once I was pulled over with my girlfriend for no clear reason and was told that I had been drinking and was driving erratically. None of which was true.
But that did not make me believe that all police are thugs.
I believe some situations require reasonable 'Non-Free Speech Zones' but hey, I'm not wedded to the concept, either.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)I'm interested to know. Along with having designated "free speech zones" are you for torture? Warrantless wire-tapping? Clearly I have a lot to learn and grow to understand about these sort of things.
randome
(34,845 posts)I don't have too much of a problem with 'free speech zones' because we always have 'non free speech' zones, like day care centers, theaters, churches, etc.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)All I'm saying, again, is that we accept restrictions on free speech all the time. You and I can agree to disagree on some aspect of this, but i don't think it has to do with the larger point that we are not in a police state and we still have rights.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)"A police state is typically defined as law enforcement thugs being able to demand papers of you,
search your home without a warrant, etc."
Supreme Court OKs Warrantless House Search
published May 16, 2011
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2015072154_scotus17.html
Justice Ginsburg dissented:
She said the Fourth Amendment's "core requirement" is that officers have probable cause and a search warrant before they break into a house.
"How 'secure' do our homes remain if police, armed with no warrant, can pound on doors at will and ... forcibly enter?" Ginsburg asked.
An expert on criminal searches agreed, saying the decision would encourage police to undertake "knock and talk" raids.
randome
(34,845 posts)I'm not saying I'm in support of it but it is certainly not evidence of a police state.
There are more than 800,000 officers in more than 581,000 cities in America. Different cities with different rules in different states with different rules. Do you really think they are being coordinated into some type of police state?
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)which occurred at the same time of the early morning darkness.
To answer you question more directly, and for the last time, there is enough evidence ( news reports, blogs, etc)
to show that attacks on any protesters are coordinated.
One example:
Justice Dept: Homeland Security Advised Raids On Occupy Wall Street Camps
http://gothamist.com/2011/11/16/justice_dept_official_raids_of_occu.php
EOM
randome
(34,845 posts)Don't police departments have the right to ask questions of other law enforcement entities?
Now if you want to abolish DHS, I'm all for that!
snooper2
(30,151 posts)With all the emails from the FOIA with stuff like,
Yo, Coast Gaurd here, FYI "Occupy" is "taking over" a port-
Yo, tell folks to take a different route to the federal building for lunch so they don't cause any conflict with the protesters..
Yo, what's for dinner?
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)Merriam-Websters Unabridged Dictionary defines a police state as:
a political unit (as a nation) characterized by repressive governmental control of
political,
economic,
and social life
usually by an arbitrary exercise of power by the police
and especially secret police
in place of the regular operation of the administrative and judicial organs of the government according to established legal processes:
a totalitarian state.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)A city has no right (cities have rights now? I thought people had rights... hmm...) to tell a person where they can and cannot go in public. This is no different for crowds. That is a right guaranteed to us in the constitution.
Day care centers and churches are not public spaces.
We'll see what happens with these "3 would-be terrorists" if they even ever go to trial. That story smells like BS to me.
randome
(34,845 posts)Those elected officials have the right and the duty to protect their citizens the way they see fit.
And if you read the court documents about the Chicago 3, you may see that the evidence is pretty extensive. Sure, it could all have been planted by someone but, geeze, it could also be that there are at least 3 people in the world who might want to cause violence.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)You can't yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theater. I'm only trying to understand both sides of the issue. Walking down a specific avenue in Chicago where VIPs are meeting? Doesn't sound like a good idea when the security of those VIPs is on us.
So, no, I don't have a problem with the police trying to keep protesters off a specific street.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)Hmm... maybe the poor shouldn't be allowed to walk down the same streets as the rich. I mean, they could mug the rich person. Better to just be safe than sorry, huh?
reACTIONary
(5,747 posts)NDAA ?
randome
(34,845 posts)And since a portion of NDAA seems about to be stripped, that makes it a little less abominable.
I confess to not having delved into all the other details it encompasses, though.
gkhouston
(21,642 posts)Welcome to DU!
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)EFerrari
(163,986 posts)PatSeg
(46,558 posts)if this happened in another country, our government would express outrage at the human rights violations and police brutality. When it happens here, we hear nothing.
44 years have passed and Chicago looks pretty much the same as during the Democratic convention. What have we learned? I'm having my doubts about evolution.
adigal
(7,581 posts)That is the one that bothers me the most. They are unarmed, and running. These cops are really assholes. I can't believe they are getting away with this, in the age of the video phone. When I get home, I am going to put these pics on my facebook, for all my republican cousins to see. Of course, they will say, "Dirty hippies, should be out working," even though it was a weekend.
I do like the pic of the guy with a respirator. Smart fellow.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Do police states afford the opportunity for public criticism, available on web sites accessible to anyone who wishes to see it? Or are we merely slipping through the net, undetected?
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)I think we would be better off with out them.
midnight
(26,624 posts)to protest, but not people in this country?
randome
(34,845 posts)Maybe not all that we SHOULD have but they are there.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Because some people refuse to pay attention or acknowledge the obvious. If one chooses to exercise freedom of dissent and to demonstrate in this country, you stand an increasing risk of learning just how much they have been lost.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)and see how many we actually have. Not to forget that there are other 'papers', legislation that has removed the nice words granting us those rights in the Constitution.
The latest being the NDAA. I sure hope this president will do as he promised and veto that bill.
randome
(34,845 posts)Both NDAA and the abominable Patriot Act should never have seen the light of day.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)and that claim gives them the right to do anything they want in other countries. If you push on any cant about free speech or democracy in any other country, you find a "US" interest that is being furthered.
Comrade_McKenzie
(2,526 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)and say hello to our new 'corporate thugs dressed in battle rattle'.
How has it come to this?
RueVoltaire
(84 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)We, the People, totally get it, loud and clear.
We, the People, are not deserving of any respect or consideration.
We, the People, are sometimes useful, but always disposable.
Let's collectively disarm these abusive, authoritarian bullies. All of them, from the top down.
No quarter.
MagickMuffin
(15,872 posts)Though your brother's bound and gagged
And they've chained him to a chair
Won't you please come to Chicago
Just to sing
In a land that's known as freedom
How can such a thing be fair
Won't you please come to Chicago
For the help we can bring
We can change the world -
Re-arrange the world
It's dying - to get better
Politicians sit yourself down,
There's nothing for you here
Won't you please come to Chicago
For a ride
Don't ask Jack to help you
Cause he'll turn the other ear
Won't you please come to Chicago
Or else join the other side
We can change the world -
Re-arrange the world
It's dying - if you believe in justice
It's dying - and if you believe in freedom
It's dying - let a man live it's own life
It's dying - rules and regulations, who needs them
Open up the door
Somehow people must be free
I hope the day comes soon
Won't you please come to Chicago
Show your face
From the bottom to the ocean
To the mountains of the moon
Won't you please come to Chicago
No one else can take your place
We can change the world -
Re-arrange the world
It's dying - if you believe in justice
It's dying - and if you believe in freedom
It's dying - let a man live it's own life
It's dying - rules and regulations, who needs them
Open up the door
We can change the world
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)rather than make things better, they have only gotten worse. "We can change the world"!
I wonder what Crosby thinks about all of this now. I know he was at the OWS protests in NYC. So, he hasn't changed his politics.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)And yes, this IS what a police state looks like.
I wonder if they are teaching them to hate? The way they were teaching the NYPD to hate the Muslim Community. Which has been exposed?
How do you teach cops to hate their people though?
But they sure look like they hate the American People daring to exercise their rights.
Thank you Occupiers! The only hope we have of stopping all of this.
And where are our elected officials?? Why have they not moved to protect the American from this militarized ARMY that has proven over and over again, they are a threat to the safety and well-being of the American people?? Shame on all of them.
FayeKane
(4 posts)You don't have to "teach" cops to be like that. They've wanted to be cops ever since they were schoolyard bullies, and if they couldn't be cops, they'd be collecting "protection" payments for the mafia.
It's why our people called them "pigs" a lifetime ago, when people had pubic hair.
It may be genetic or it may be fucked-up parents or it may be the lead paint chips they ate; but that doesn't really matter. Everything that happens has an antecedent; so what? What matters is what the cops DO, not what's going on in their diminutive brains while they hit people with wooden clubs, gleefully, excessively, and repeatedly.
Trying to "figure them out" is only meaningful if it lets us predict their actions. But that's not really very hard. They're not a complex system to model, they're COPS. Bad ones. Stupid, angry, violent ones.
That's all we need to know about them because there isn't really anything else to know that matters. I'm not dehumanizing them; they dehumanized themselves when they used that nightstick on a peaceful people.
All you need to know about a rabies dog is that it has rabies. Its breed and name and pedigree and coat don't matter. The plumage don't enter into it.
Similarly, all that matters for US is what WE do. That's the only thing that has any effect. Yes, we need to plan, and this forum is good. But I see too much talk and not enough action. Occupy wall street took over, the whole world really WAS watching... and then they didn't DO anything. They just sat there for weeks, eating pizza, smoking dope, doing webcasts, and holding their dicks--but not making any demands.
Just like Obama in his first months, we had the evil motherfuckers by the balls. A fortuitous confluence of circumstance gave us control of everything, but we failed to DO anything. Jupiter's moons were lined up for a moment, but we didn't enter the stargate. And when the moment passed, we (and he) lost that control and now the re: pig lickin' party runs the show again. All we can do is gawk 'n squawk on this forum.
DO or do NOT. There IS no "why".
?,
-- faye kane homeless brain
Autistic savant astrophysics chick who got so disgusted by the 1% that she moved into a cave in the woods, 3 years ago, hacked into the pwr grid for A/C & wireless net, and reads hyperbolic geometry naked by festive, colored christmas-tree lights. Here: nude pix of a reeeeally smart girl because I like being deliciously humiliated and embarrassed. Fuck Steinem. Paglia was right.
So was Magneto.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)though, they were under a coordinated attack across the country to remove them from the public square to cut off their ability to stay in touch with the people, to feed the poor, to remain close to each other etc. It worked of course but not end the movement or their activities. They just moved on to other pursuits, such as occupying foreclosed on homes and saved a few people from being thrown out on the street. For the winter they pretty much dedicated their efforts to these kinds of activities. Too band Cogress wasn't trying to save people's homes.
Now they are regrouping and planning more big events and some are looking for permanent places to stay. Their goals include taking over abandoned buildings to help house the homeless etc.
Anyhow, welcome to DU.
firenewt
(298 posts)are the storm troopers of the far Right. I do not trust police. I was beaten and arrested during an anti-war demonstration in 1971 . I know there are good cops but they are becoming fewer. We are heading for a darkness few can even imagine.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)perhaps technology is just making the bad ones more visible.
I'm definitely not one of these "cops are bad!! grrr!!!" people, because the police do an awful lot of good. I think the real criticism should not go to the police - that is, blaming that large block for the actions of a few - but to those who ordered this operation. The buck stops where? These cops didn't spontaneously decide to assemble like this. Unlike the protesters, they were ordered to assemble - with weapons.
randome
(34,845 posts)After all this time, why aren't the police better trained to deal with protests? I think protests will become much more common in the next few years so training is essential.
harmonicon
(12,008 posts)The real question is, why were they there in the first place? Why the riot gear?
randome
(34,845 posts)Maybe because they were outnumbered a thousand to one? Part of their responsibilities are to protect themselves, too.
secondvariety
(1,245 posts)It might be smart for the po-lice to think about the implications of such a lop sided division of forces and show a little restraint. Things could quickly get very, very ugly for them.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Were protesters armed? Did you know that the biggest and most peaceful march took place in Oakland with over one hundred thousand protesters, the day that there were hardly any police around? Iow, without the presence of the police no one got hurt, and that was over the course of a whole day. Do you know why there so little police presence that day?
Did you know that the policy of this movement is to befriend the police? Did you know that on this weekend protesters offered the food and drinks and that they threw them away, angrily?
I have to ask, do you know anything about this movement? You seem to me to be very misinformed frankly. But anything you want to know, feel free to ask.
randome
(34,845 posts)Nor the rationale behind them. If you want answers, maybe you could start a dialog with the police or city authorities.
All this distracts from the initial point I made, which is that police do thousands of heroic, life-risking activities every single day.
So to say it is evidence of a police state because some protesters got injured is hyperbolic, to my way of thinking.
The police are not blameless in everything they do. Neither are protesters. As in the protester who threw a bucket at the police. As in the 3 who were arrested.
The only thing I care about is to see things for how they truly are.
We are not in a police state. Not even close.
On edit:
I suppose you've seen this thread.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002712548
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)We are talking about the actions of the police in every demonstration since this movement began. As most people have seen with their own eyes, because no protests have been more photographed or video-taped, (in anticipation of lies being told), that over 99% of the violence at every one of these protests was initiated by the cops.
The OP did not say we live in a police state. He said 'this is what a police state looks like'. Do you deny that?
Are 86 year old women, simply standing peacefully watching what is going on, a serious threat to an army of police armed with military style weapons? A person in a wheelchair? Pregnant women? Journalists? Elected officials?? All have been brutally attacked by the police. You are choosing to ignore the facts. There is video of all of it. Reams of video.
Now show me some small amount of video that even comes close to the evidence against the police, of where the violence has come from protesters. Remember there are hours and hours, days of video by now, and so little of it shows any violence from the protesters that it is barely worth mentioning, yet out of all that, YOU have focused only on that miniscule amount of reaction from a very, very few people.
Do you know what it looks like eg, to people overseas? Are you aware that we now have a reputation of being a 'police state' in many countries around the world? Unfair? Yes, but that is the fault of the police and the elected officials who gave them their orders, that is not the fault of the protesters.
If they do not want to be compared to police in oppressive countries, the solution is simple. Either stay away from the protests which seem to do fine UNTIL the police begin acting violently, or stop attacking peaceful protesters. It is a crime to do so. Problem solved.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)They were ashamed and did not deny the image they are portraying. But as one cop said to me 'I understand your concerns for the protesters, but I am not in charge, you would need to speak to the chief'. I did try to speak to the chief, but the chief was not taking calls.
randome
(34,845 posts)But have you been to this latest thread about Chicago? It seems there is always more to the story than just 'Cops Gone Wild'.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=712548
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)we will get the video soon and like all other situations where someone tries to defend the brutality, as in the case of Kayvan Sabeghi, Iraq War Vet whose was beaten to the point of rupturing his spleen, and then thrown in jail and left with no medical attention for 18 hours, the defense was 'but he must have done something to deserve it', until what they thought did not exist, the video showed up. His own account of what happened turned out to be completely accurate.
What do you think of the police beating up Iraq War Veterans, in that case, to a point where his life was threatened? Simply for walking on the street, a whole mob of robo cops against one peaceful, unarmed, War Veteran and respected member of the business community in his town? You have not commented at all on these brutal attacks, which got the UN HR Rappateur involved to request that the US Government step in to protect the people?
Their behavior is shocking for a democracy, it has been from the first few days, they armed, as foreign media has pointed out, as if they are going to battle with an armed insurgency, rather than protect unarmed US Citizens.
Sorry, but this has been tried from the beginning, the effort to try to defend this behavior, the reaons it has failed, is because of the Police and the Mayors who are responsible for it.
Tell you what, why don't you call a few of them and ask them why they are armed as if going to war against an armed insurgency rather than what should be in any democracy, a run of the mill protest made up of unarmed American people?
Ask Rahm's office eg, why he spent over one million dollars on Blue Helmets, did he know the contractor, and other police 'equipment' when his city he says, needs to close down Mental Health Clinics because they 'have no money'??
No money for Mental Health Clinics, but plenty of money for Blue Helmets. Someone made a killing on that and we will be asking who that was and who they know.
randome
(34,845 posts)The police behave abominably at times. They also risk their lives on a daily basis. And sometimes protesters behave abominably.
We are not even close to being in a police state but I suppose we can agree to disagree there.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)the brutal Bahrain police, you know, the ones who have been killing their own citizens on the orders of their brutal dictatorship. Also with the Israeli Border patrol, renowned for their brutality and universally condemned by HR Organizations everywhere. Why are our civilian police doing this?
Why are these riot patrols being used at peaceful legal protests in the US? Why are they being armed with military weapons? We have an army, the police are CIVILIAN police, totally separate and for good reason, from the military.
I think you need to do some studying about what has been going on since 9/11 with these departments before criticizing the protesters.
We are NOT talking about little town cops here, we are talking about a whole new issue, a militarization of the police, a centrally controlled military style police force, supplied with weapons by the Department of Homeland Security, now being used to suppress dissent, NOT being use for the purpose police are supposed to be used for, to 'protect and serve' the American people who pay their salaries.
You have avoided addressing an issue that has caused concern now even to former Police Chiefs and to the UN. Let me say it again. This country has an army, a huge army. Now we have a second army, armed and being used against the American people. Sooner or later someone is going to die, as many already nearly have, a fact that does should concern everyone. You have offered no logical reason why peaceful protesters are being treated with such brutality. Who are these cops working for, if not the people?
As one CNN reporter said while watching the brutality this weekend, trying his best to be 'fair', 'does ANYONE need to be treated like this'? And that is my question also. These are NOT as you are attempting to portray, isolated incidents, they are sustained attacks on the American people for now over seven months. NOT a few 'bad apples'. An army of robo cops who present a clear threat to the American people exercising their rights.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)that our party isn't desperately sick and purchased, too, and that the authoritarian, civil-rights-destroying, corporate fascism is coming only from the other side.
None of this goes away until we are united against it, whether it is coming from Republicans or Democrats, or both. Demand the money out of our government. Demand that our party stand against tyranny. Wake up and join the occupation.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Seven+ months of it.
donheld
(21,311 posts)Pachamama
(16,849 posts)....sick, absolutely sick.
We have become a police state and the police are being used by the 1% to show the rest of the population who has the power and control.
Meanwhile, some of those police think they are doing their job and others within the police are fascist thugs themselves who just see these people as punks and criminals that they have the right to beat and abuse. Sadly, the cops who think they are doing their job, dont realize they have become the tools of the 1% and that they really have more to agree with the protesters.
I have been watching the footage and especially the international press. While there may be some anarchists and trouble makers, the vast majority of people are protesting peacefully. But the police presence and tactics is very disturbing.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)unhappycamper
(60,364 posts)He should be immortalized on the Thug Wall of Shame with Lt. Pike and that NYPD asshole who was sent to Staten Island for macing a blind girl.
RZM
(8,556 posts)Scroll down to click on the Freedom House column until the 'not free' countries are clustered at the top. Then do some digging on those. Most are police states.
After that I'll teach you how to Dougie:
AzDar
(14,023 posts)WhoIsNumberNone
(7,875 posts)As far as I'm concerned they might as well be working for the other side.
Where were they during the Teabagger rallies? Probably holding 'Obama is a Nazi' signs....
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)and there was a similar one yesterday! Cops were caught in Canada dressed as protesters, attempting to get them violent, and the police department had to publicly apologize. Never forget they definitely do that!
WhoIsNumberNone
(7,875 posts)The cops have been doing this since the Bush Administration. I remember seeing a video in 2007 of some cops getting caught infiltrating a protest in Canada wearing Black Blok style clothes.
FedUp_Queer
(975 posts)North Korea.
Swede Atlanta
(3,596 posts)This is police brutality against the Constitution but who will challenge? The Reich-wing love the beating up of Americans because they beat them up economically so why not physically? They probably get some sexual gratification over this.
We have become a nation of the haves versus the have nots and, guess what, there are more of the have nots and at some point this will boil over and a revolution will be ignited.
I don't think this is going to happen immediately but soon..very soon and the wealthy may need to consider their actions to protect their families because, unfortunately, unruly crowds do very impertinent actions.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)progressoid
(49,753 posts)Prometheus Bound
(3,489 posts)And it isn't from the protesters.
jillan
(39,451 posts)the President is speaking dressed like this:
[img][/img]
Where are the cops?
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Cops don't beat them up either.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)Do you find it ironic that you're praising what has been condemned on this thread?
chollybocker
(3,687 posts)I mean, who signs up to be a cop these days? Are new recruits trained/brainwashed into this eventuality? At what point do they decide to conform absolutely to authority and violence? Do they never consider quitting the force on the spot? Who the fuck are these people? Are they raised on farms like cattle, or in biolabs like mutants? WTF.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)if you search the web for "cop IQ" or similar you'll see that some state forces won't hire people with IQs higher than about 100.
"Just following orders" cannot possibly be accepted as an excuse any more. I've spent enough time speaking truth to cops to wear out my vocal cords. A couple have listened, but the rest...sometimes grin shark grins at me.
chollybocker
(3,687 posts)I can hear black helicopters hovering over my apt every night, for a few weeks now. The student protesters have overtaken the city streets every night (till 11:00 pm; we protest civily). The police create nothing but havoc and arrest innocent people; the government passes unconstitutional laws at whim.
Montreal is currently 100 times more fucked up than any weekend in Chicago; ignore the MSM and plan your summer vacation accordingly.
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)Their departments get big post-9/11 money from the Feds directly and from the Feds through the state. So, the guys running these police departments don't have their heads in the community any more but in the incoming $$$. They're not community police, they're urban militias with no local oversight, really.
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)Chicago neighborhoods (working class, blue collar) aren't breeding grounds of understanding and compassion.
in some place you either become a cop or a gangbanger.
U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)Now I'm all riled up again.
Quite a few OLA folks are in Chicago.
I hope they're safe.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)but cops were in heavy evidence until then. Hoping they don't interfere along the route. @OccupyFreedomLA is tweeting and streaming.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)andrewserin
(1 post)[IMG][/IMG]
So over Saturday and Sunday, OccupyDenver, OccupyAustin, OccupyPortland OccupyLongBeach, and OccupyRichmond (Virginia) were all raided.
I dont know much about OccupyLongBeach.
OccupyAustin had a few dozen arrests, and two folding tables confiscated. Im not sure on their status right now either.
Portland police used horses to divide media and observers from the arrestees.
There were a few times on the livestream where the horses got skittish too close to seated demonstrators in what was, at times, a tense scene that echoed an even tenser scene in Times Square that avoided sheer disaster by a (horse) hairs breadth. (Seriously police, when dealing with crowds, horses quickly make bad situations worse.)
randome
(34,845 posts)Last edited Tue May 22, 2012, 03:15 PM - Edit history (1)
Confiscated folding tables and skittish horses. That's your evidence of a police state?
Was there supposed to be a link, too?
On edit:
That original subject line was way harsher than it should have been.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)I hadn't heard about this and hope that everyone everywhere is okay
treestar
(82,383 posts)People can't do it in the first place. There are no trials and no warrants. There are no juries and no appeals.
This is like when the right wing calls a few regulations "socialism" or "communism."
It's like you are admitting everything in the photos is OK unless you can fit the label "police state" to it.
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)Photo shared by Occupy Canada's FB page:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303360504577414370915099252.html
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Glad you posted this, Fire Walk With Me, and even gladder to see that over 150 people have rec'ced it.
Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)2008, but definitely related.