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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIRS Getting Pressured To Crack Down On Televangelists Following John Oliver’s Segment
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/08/20/irs-televangelists-john-oliver/Oliver blasted televangelists this past Sunday for what he called seed faith, where they tell donors they will reap the rewards by giving money to them.
They preach something called the prosperity gospel which argues that wealth is a sign of Gods favor and donations will result in wealth coming back to you. That idea sometimes takes the form of seed faith the notion that donations are seeds that you will one day get to harvest, Oliver said in the segment.
He continued, The argument is sow your money into the ground, you will reap returns multiple times over, except as an investment youd be better off burying your money in the actual ground because at least that way theres a chance your dog may dig it up and give it back to you one day.
cilla4progress
(24,728 posts)to Bernie....
hahaha
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)I'm so glad he has picked up the torch left by Jon Stewart
Change has come
(2,372 posts)It's fascinating and exciting to watch!
DinahMoeHum
(21,784 posts). . .Jon Stewart's legacy is in good hands.
musiclawyer
(2,335 posts)Truth be told
valerief
(53,235 posts)Reich or O'Malley would suit me just fine.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)cilla4progress
(24,728 posts)is enough for me.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Who would you like to see?
cilla4progress
(24,728 posts)Julian Castro immediately comes to mind.
tblue37
(65,336 posts)speech at the DNC, like Clinton, Obama, and Kerry before him.
tblue37
(65,336 posts)is worth seeking or worth it for people to vote for is a significant factor in creating our current mess.
Ted Kennedy became the effective "Lion of the Senate" once he stopped trying to be president and started focusing on the very important job of legislating. Kerry, too, was an influential senator, but gave that up to chase the presidency.
Vinca
(50,269 posts)Televangelists are, 99.9% of the time, nothing but scamsters out to turn a buck . . . or a few million bucks. They prey upon the dimmer among us and live like royalty and it's all tax free. Oliver's piece was both funny and heartbreaking when you think that the one foolish woman kept sending in money as "seeds" rather than seeking treatment for her cancer.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)We had to figure out which checks had not cleared so we could close her bank account..
This woman's SS check was $203.00 a month, and she had written $20 checks to:
Jerry Falwell
that Schuller guy
Tammy Fay & Jim
Robertson
Tillman
and a few others..
and she did it fairly regularly
Vinca
(50,269 posts)She was in a similar financial circumstance in the last years of her life. What made the whole thing even odder was that she had never been religious during her life, only going to church for a wedding or funeral. I think the scamsters primarily target the elderly who often live alone and have no one to ask them why they're send twenty bucks a week to a greedy fool like Creflo Dollar.
flygal
(3,231 posts)She was convinced the more she gave the MORE she'd get. She also got sucked into a pyramid gifting program but lost her own money.
I seriously thought after the late eighties round up of those scam artists that this would never happen. It only got worse.
marlakay
(11,451 posts)Mega church guy from Texas. And she sends money to some prayer group that promises to pray for you...
I have tried to say something, goes no where.
I think they take advatage of older people and their faith, its sickening since these people are rich getting from almost poor seniors.
cilla4progress
(24,728 posts)You're still here! How's it going? Fire safe?
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Not only do they get to scam the weak, leaving them penniless (like Scientology did to my sister), but they don't even have to pay taxes on all that wealth because this scam is called "religion".
One day we will be smart enough to realize that all humanitarian donations have to be controlled by someone to make sure that is what they really are being used for, or you have to pay taxes on them.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)realized that they can run perfectly legal Ponzi schemes without even having to promise riches, just pie in the sky when you die.
Tar and feathers are called for and I'm not kidding about these fucking parasites.
ruffburr
(1,190 posts)I have never understood how people can be so gullible as to believe the line of pure horse crap these preachers spout , By the way God told me to tell you all that I need a new Lear jet so I can spread his word about the new house I need to entertain the true believers and share God's word of wealth.
jmowreader
(50,556 posts)He didn't need a "new Lear jet" - he needed a new Gulfstream G650 - which is much nicer than a Lear, and also harder to get. The weird thing is, if you look at what they plan to do with the plane you can't help but think an airliner would better meet his needs.
Springslips
(533 posts)If they are asking for money it means they don't have it, which by their own account means they are not favored by God. Therefor, God doesn't want you to send them money.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)... can be blurry. A poor woman Oliver highlighted apparently foreswore actual medical treatment for cancer in favor of sending money to one of these Bible-oil salesmen.
And died.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...and the ducks immediately ate it.
I did not get a 7 fold return.
In fact, they didn't even pretend to be my friends after I ran out of bread.
I had a sad.
Solly Mack
(90,762 posts)Always ducking.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Under pressure, they'd quack up.
packman
(16,296 posts)quaked me up.
Solly Mack
(90,762 posts)Paladin
(28,254 posts)A $6.4 million parsonage? Lord help us all.....
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Love the guy!!
Rex
(65,616 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Link to Oliver, pretty please?
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)either (1) run out of town on a rail or (2) set on fire.
frylock
(34,825 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)It's even BETTER, because the preachercreatures never even promise to make the marks and chumps rich, like Ponzi did. They just take the money and buy Gulfstreams and estates. And the cretins keep sending these charlatans even MORE MONEY.
Jefferson was right, we need a lot more freedom FROM religion in this benighted and superstitious wasteland called 'murka.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)My sister is one. She has always gone for the flakiest stuff out there. She is into holistic health and flower oils and all kinds of things that have never been proven to be effective. She lives in poverty and has a house full of rescue animals, and spends all her money on health food and natural products to keep everyone healthy. She was also a Scientologist for years. Thank dog that's over with.
But some people are just born strange and there is nothing we can do to protect them, short of locking them up. We have to let them do what they will, no matter how much it hurts to watch.
Because there are people like this out there, there will always be hucksters taking advantage of them, and it's our job to make sure we protect them as much as possible by controlling and stopping the hucksters. But we don't do that now. The FDA does somewhat, but not nearly enough. There are all kinds of people selling miracle cures for weight loss, diabetes (Huckabee?) and all kinds of other health issues. It's a huge industry...selling to the vulnerable.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)And let me put in here a plug for Shermer's The Moral Arc, as important and thought-provoking a book as I have ever read.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)nature. Visited cardiologist BP and heart, healthy! Herbs, organic vegetables, meditation, calming aromatherapy, acupuncture, it all works.
Drug companies and for profit private health care companies HATE holistic healing. It "steals" from their profit margin because it is a permanent fix for many modern diseases.
But Scientology, yikes I knew that was crap when I was 18 and went to a meeting. Never went back. I sure don't want to live in poverty, too much struggle! Now Pat Robertson, that's one sick billionaire lying scammer.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)It was supposed to make me wealthy.
Didn't work.
Seriously though, I have two sisters into the natural health stuff. Both are massage therapists. One is more normal and not as obsessed with the more off the wall stuff, but she still uses homeopathy. She is not fit...she is getting pretty damn heavy (stress) and it's not healthy for her. It has never helped me the times I've tried it, upon their insistence. Healthy eating, of course it good for everyone. That's a natural "cure" for many people. But that's not what I'm talking about.
The other sister has just always been weird...even as a little kid. And she should have been as prosperous as my other sis, but even after leaving scientology, she just could never get herself into a good place financially. She is always working for someone who is taking advantage of her...until finally a few years ago she moved to OK and finally works for herself...but she does not get full-time clients, so the wages just aren't enough. She probably doesn't charge enough either to get the clients she has now. She is already on early SS retirement to supplement her low income, and struggles every day to take care of her seven dogs and three or five cats. I don't know long she will be able to keep doing massage...she is in good health and fit, but she's almost 67 and can't work forever. Massage is a physical job. Once she loses that income, I have no idea how she will survive. She only gets a couple hundred a month on SS. She is the only one of us kids who has never owned her own house. She struggles all the time to find a place she can afford to rent. She is into everything there is out there. Crystals, magnets, flower oils, all homeopathy stuff. I don't know if she has tried acupuncture, the one thing that I think may actually work. I've tried things she has sent me and nothing has ever done a thing for me. I seriously believe most of it is placebo effect. But, if it works for you, I'm glad. More power to you. I just wish my sister could be in a better place in her head. She drives everyone in the family crazy.
LuckyLib
(6,819 posts)goofy stuff, I'm surprised she caught on to that scam.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)And the marriage only lasted two years. When she left him, she moved and dropped out of Scientology. I don't know if he is what woke her up or not. I'm just glad she dropped out.
When she was in it, she was such a proselytizer and it drove us all nuts.
Stardust
(3,894 posts)passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)I suspect a lot of people have a strange sibling. Or maybe it's really we who are strange and they are the normal ones?
Stardust
(3,894 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)douggg
(239 posts)They get to 'pass the buck' to God for the results and then can wash their hands of any accountability.
You didn't get the fortune?
That was God's decision.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)let me tell yez about this bridge I got for sale in Brooklyn.
douggg
(239 posts)Hallijooyah!
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)I was a travel consultant ..
Every DECEMBER, they booked a swanky trip to Hawaii for their "religious retreat"..
They always booked first class flights
Multiple suites at the BEST hotel of that year
Rented boats & side trips vis rented helicopters to the other islands
Booked golf arrangements
The works..
They visited a local church and put on a "musical performance of faith"
and they always paid in CASH ...
This was in the late 70's and the trips usually ran upwards of $15K,,
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Oh, those fine upstanding xtians certainly reported every penny to the IRS as income.
Nope, I can't even type that with a straight face. Can't do it.
Grifters gonna grift.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)Yes, it is a con, but at least with a pyramid scheme, there are some people who do get something out of the investment. With this, the only one getting any money out of it is the preacher. Worse than a pyramid scheme.
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)packman
(16,296 posts)and it's been going downhill ever since.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)and he's more right now than ever. Fleecing the suckers is truly the world's oldest profession.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Look at how President Jimmy Carter has used his faith.
paleotn
(17,911 posts)...depending on what that faith is....organized religion, however, was a scam from the beginning, meant only to empower and enrich the few at the expense of the many.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)It morphed into organized religion for the reasons you say. I still think a lot of people feel the need for something to put their faith into. Not all organized religion is a scam. Many pastors really believe what they preach. Many are really holy people (meaning good moral people who live what they believe and live to help others).
It is a shame that it has to be based on a myth that others can use to extort money and reign control over the masses.
Televangelists are my favorite bad guy...nobody does this unless they are in it for the money, prestige, power. They are like carny barkers. It should be illegal.
DiehardLiberal
(580 posts)Bless him!!!
valerief
(53,235 posts)90-percent
(6,829 posts)Frank Zappa performed a Beatles Medley about that.
Frank loathed televangelists and all the scandals of the 80's were put to use on his 1988 World Tour.
Oliver always come up with brilliant things to expose, while practicing some excellent INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM, which is so rare these days, but still an important part of an "Open Society".
-90% Jimmy
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)on preachers as far back as "You Are What You Is" back in 1981.
According to The Real Frank Zappa book he stumbled across teevee preachers accidentally while channel surfing one afternoon in the late 1970s. FZ kept vampire hours, composing, recording and mixing until early morning and never woke up before the afternoon, when he'd fire up a heater and make breakfast with the teevee on as background noise. To say he could barely believe what he was seeing would be monumental understatement.
Frank hated sanctimony, superstition, stupidity, bullshit, and hypocrisy with an undying passion and he found the perfect target for his eloquent vitriol in preachercreatures.
Initech
(100,065 posts)He totally railed on televangelist crooks, unnecessary censorship, and the rise of the lunatic fringe republican right. It's history on a rock CD.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)"Just Another Band From L.A." Probably because it was my first Zappa. First loves are the best loves. "Billy the Mountain" is still great 45 years later and I listen to it regularly. Tons of Conceptual Continuity and Kaylan/Volman were every bit as funny as FZ.
In terms of sheer hysterically funny meanness BWTHW is a true classic, though. A Zappa-less world is a much duller place.
Initech
(100,065 posts)Yes friends.... pass the plate around, friends....
90-percent
(6,829 posts)I went to that show. Met the dynamic Eric Buxton, briefly, and had a brief chat with Dweezil when he was signing autographs.
My first MOI show was Oct 16, 1971 Stony Brook late show. Bought Just Another Band from L.A., because it has all the material from the show I saw. And the rest was 44 years of history.
-jim
spanone
(135,828 posts)classykaren
(769 posts)PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Initech
(100,065 posts)The IRS and the FBI were investigating Scientology back in the late 80's / early 90's shortly after L. Ron Hubbard died and David Miscavige began running the church. The result? Scientology filed something like 2,300 consecutive lawsuits against the IRS until it caved and gave Scientology its' tax exempt status.
If you haven't seen that movie yet it's an absolute must watch.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)All these years that these shysters have been bilking the gullible out of their money, and the IRS is only being pressured to do something because a comedian did a skit on it? I am baffled....at the IRS for never thinking that this was something to look into, and at the people who are just now making noise about it.
A Little Weird
(1,754 posts)Feel free to donate!
http://www.ourladyofperpetualexemption.com/donate.html
Oliver set up his own church called Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption to prove his point.
Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption will not be able to accept donations from Church supporters from the states of Mississippi, Nevada, Pennsylvania, or South Carolina. We apologize for any inconvenience. Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption may choose to wind down and dissolve in the near future, the website states. Upon dissolution, any assets belonging to the Church at that time will be distributed to Doctors Without Borders, a non-profit charitable organization that is tax-exempt under § 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code (EIN: 13-3433452) and which provides emergency medical aid in places where it is needed most.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)They are not allowed to accept donations from PA. WTF???
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)From: http://www.ourladyofperpetualexemption.com/donate.html
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)I am surprised that this state has laws against donating to churches....real churches with real 501c status.
This is a really screwed up state, but that takes the cake. Wow, I wonder if they will allow me to donate directly to Doctors Without Borders.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)I'm guessing Doctors Without Borders has filed appropriate paperwork with Pennsylvania to solicit donations there.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Seriously thinking of getting ordained as a Dudeist minister myself.
From the website:
Probably the earliest form of Dudeism was the original form of Chinese Taoism, before it went all weird with magic tricks and body fluids. The originator of Taoism, Lao Tzu, basically said smoke em if you got em and mellow out, man although he said this in ancient Chinese so something may have been lost in the translation.
Down through the ages, this rebel shrug has fortified many successful creeds Buddhism, Christianity, Sufism, John Lennonism and Fo-Shizzle-my-Nizzlism. The idea is this: Life is short and complicated and nobody knows what to do about it. So dont do anything about it. Just take it easy, man.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)do Dudeists take seed money and make it multiply and multiply. If not, what's the point.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Just make another White Russian and see what happens. League is tomorrow night. Priorities, man.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)Screw the cream.
marlakay
(11,451 posts)To show everyone what a pac was and how you can do anything with money.
Jon is doing great, he is bringing up all the things no one talks about and should!
Moonwalk
(2,322 posts)..and those working for the IRS are basically accounting nerds. And people treat them like they're some great evil and our country would be better off without them. That's how Scientology finally won it's religious status. It accused the IRS of being a bully. The poor accounting nerds never had a chance once Scientology attacked them with ads and lawyers saying they were persecuting a poor, innocent religion. They backed down and let Scientology win.
And at this point, the IRS doesn't even have the teeth they had back when Scientology attacked them. Look at who is in power, who has all the money--the IRS' money was cut by the GOP congress which is funded by corporations that don't want to pay taxes, and wealthy faux religions that don't want to pay taxes.
Three things need to be done if we want the IRS back on its feet and getting money from anyone other than the law-abiding middle class. (1) they have to be given a big enough operating budget. (2) They need to hire not only accounting nerds (and computer people for a whole new system), but those who can and will go after the scammers and not let them get away--bulldog lawyers who won't be scarred of their tactics. The current crop of quiet, nerdy IRS guys who are aging and doing their best with an outdated computer system can't possibly fight big churches with well paid lawyers and access to television where they can say nasty things about the IRS and have their followers abusing IRS agents and voting in congressional representatives that say they'll do away with the IRS. (3) They have to be supported by congress with laws that don't allow such scams.
Quite simply, the laws allowing religious organizations special privileges just because they're religions need to be done away with. If a religion is non-profit, then they can show where their money goes (soup kitchens, homeless shelters, etc.) and they won't get taxed. If they cannot prove that they are fully non-profit, then they have to pay. Period. Just being named "a religion" should not allow any organization freedom from paying their taxes. But I seriously doubt this law will be changed unless we really mange to kick out every tea party member and blue dog currently in congress.
Point is, don't blame the IRS for only NOW thinking they should look into it. They haven't the resources. The GOP congress is making sure of that. And WE, the people of the U.S., should have insisted they take care of such long before now. WHY have WE allowed religion a tax-free ride for over 200 years? That's the question.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)in the past after spending $2.5 billion on it.
See: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-06-24/irs-chief-tries-to-protect-crown-jewel-computer-system-from-budget-cuts
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)The IRS budget keeps getting cut, making it harder and harder for them to do the job that they really should be doing. There is so little chance of being audited anymore because of the cuts---and that is just what the GOP no-tax reps want.
Add to that the "accounting nerds" that work for the IRS....who are not the brightest accounting nerds. The best are working at the CPA firms that protect their clients, and those CPA's can usually run rings around the IRS accountants. I worked for a CPA firm, and I have seen how easy it is to confuse and convolute. My opinion is also that many of the IRS accountants are older and are basically just biding their time until retirement. They burned out years ago. The amount of money that can be made in the private sector keeps the IRS from hiring the best. That is a shame.
turbinetree
(24,695 posts)John Oliver and it reminds of a time long ago when I was unemployed and desperate-------------- 1982.
I called the 700 Club phone lines and asked the sweet woman on the other end if they would send me $500.
This sweet woman told / ask me to send in some money any amount to get a "prayer cloth".
I said, I don't need a "prayer cloth" I need some money to help get through the month, I can't eat a "prayer cloth or have a roof over my head.
She said we can't do that.
I said why
She said that's not what we do here--------------I said really, in a sate of disbelief
I said really, then why do you get a tax break, your suppose to be a "church" to help the poor, down trodden in time of need
Why do you have this scam, because your are designated as a church by the IRS
She said sir, I want to know if you are going to send us some money to spread the word of god and we can send you the "prayer cloth"
I said no thanks I don't need a "prayer cloth" I have my principles and my god doesn't abandon the poor or the down trodden ---based on a "prayer cloth" for greed
So Patty Roberts if you read the post on this thread----------------remember the "prayer cloth" snake oil salesman pitch you initiated a long time ago-------------------your deceitful right wing hypocrite
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)They were claiming a woman paid off her mortgage after, "planting her seed and reaping her supernatural harvest".
They talked about people being able to buy a car, pay off their credit cards, etc.
Then they threw it to their mixed race chorus to sing gospel songs.
Bunch of con artists.
wolfie001
(2,227 posts)4lbs
(6,855 posts)Really? God needs money?
The same entity that supposedly created the universe and every living thing needs money? God has the power to create everything, but creating money is suddenly outside his sphere of knowledge?
Yeah, right.
EDIT:
And didn't Jesus, supposedly the Son of God, rail against the moneylenders doing business in churches. Isn't this the same thing. Asking for wealth and money in church? Didn't God supposedly, through Moses, strike down those Hebrews that wound up worshipping the Golden Calf, made out of gold (aka money) ?
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Asking parishioners to tithe a percentage of their income (no matter how poor they are) to the church.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Warpy
(111,253 posts)Televangelism aint church, it's a billion dollar begging business offering false hope for cash.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Solves half the problem. Not to mention, with the tax money, we could solve a massive part of poverty in the US. Funny how hypocritical so many churches are--when it comes to private property, their faith in that trumps all else.
ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)Frank Cannon
(7,570 posts)Federal income tax didn't even exist until the 16th Amendment.
ColesCountyDem
(6,943 posts)The power to tax is the power to destroy, and any reasonable reading of the 1st Amendment certainly prohibits it. Prior to the Constitution, churches were exempt from colonial and, later, state taxes. These exemptions were incorporated into the federal tax code in 1913.
Moonwalk
(2,322 posts)...is stop them from being so profitable. Religious organizations should not get a tax-free ride in our country. We should do away with that law. The ones who are REALLY doing good, who are really non-profit, will get a tax-free ride just like other non-profits. But just naming oneself a religion shouldn't allow anyone a tax free ride. Why should a church, temple, mosque or any other such place and the organization it serves NOT be taxed? Every single one of them should be audited, and if they can't prove that they're non-profit, they should pay.
Render unto Caesar. Even Jesus said that people should pay their taxes.
ashling
(25,771 posts)She would send a dollar every week or so to brother Greene from Greenville SC
She died in Feb 1972 the day after her 90th birthday. We lived in Harahan, La. at the time. My mother had cancer and that October we moved back to Houston Tx. Mom dis in July 1973. I remember when going through the cars we got at the time. There was a "seed" request to my grandmother from Brother Greene in Greenville SC sent to our house in Houston.
frylock
(34,825 posts)Hoppy
(3,595 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Initech
(100,065 posts)Televangelist is just another term for "career criminal".
PatSeg
(47,418 posts)I was wondering if it would have an effect.