Cait Jenner is an entitled Republican jerk. She's no ally, at this point anyway.

[pnwmom]

She must be pretty stupid, or narcissistic, not to have learned something from her whole experience.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/caitlyn-jenner-conservative_55be5945e4b0b23e3ce31979?

Caitlyn Jenner's conservative views create some tension among a group of her friends in a released clip from an upcoming episode of "I Am Cait," Jenner's docuseries on E!.

While the group discusses homeless and unemployed transgender people, Jenner says, "Don't, a lot of times, they can make more not working with social programs than they actually can with an entry-level job?"

"I'd say the great majority of people who are getting help are getting help because they need help," a friend answers.

"But you don't want people to get totally dependent on it. That's when they get in trouble. ‘Why should I work? I got a few bucks, I got my room paid for,'" Jenner responds, while the rest of the group appears visibly uncomfortable.

"Now I'm worried," LGBT activist Jenny Boylan later tells the camera.

[hifiguy]

1. Just another rich, self-centered Repuke.

[elehhhhna]

53. nobody claimed Bruce or cait has any intellectual capital. ever.

[Dawson Leery]

2. Bruce, now Caitlyn's highest acomplishment was being able to make a high jump in

the air. For this, millions in endorsements were given. Bruce/Caitlyn does not know what hard work is.

The bastard also repeats lie that welfare is more profitable than working.

[truebluegreen]

3. While I generally agree with the sentiment,

and wholeheartedly agree that she is no role model in other areas, it would make your argument stronger if you were accurate regarding Jenner's athletic accomplishments.

[dsc]

9. training for the olympics

in a 10 event discipline it should noted, is a ton ass of work. It is ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

[TexasBushwhacker]

15. Not to mention, had Jenner not won the gold, the "pay"

would have been zero. Many had college scholarships, but other than that, it's years of hard work for a very uncertain payday. Most gold medal winners, other than figure skaters, may get a few endorsements, but most go on to regular careers. Mark Spitz is a dentist.

[3catwoman3]

19. Spitz was a "pre-dental" student, which, like pre-med...

...basically means you are a science major. He did not go to dental school after his Olympic triumphs.

[TexasBushwhacker]

22. My bad. Debi Thomas is an orthopedic surgeon though! n/t

[3catwoman3]

23. And good for her!

That is one long educational row to hoe.

[TexasBushwhacker]

32. No kidding. Plus her bachelor's degree was just

biology or chemustry . She got a degree in engineering from Stanford! No dumb jock!

[Syzygy321]

17. Wait - I read "Nickel and Dimed" years ago

And the author - who was very anti-republican as I remember - made exactly that point, didn't she? That the system is messed up and that poor working people go through hell and still can't make ends meet. And they have to find transportation, childcare, sick days, etc...all of which makes welfare the smarter choice - even for all the people who would love to work.

[Hydra]

34. It's a trap

I'm not sure about a few years ago, but they are quietly phasing out most of the programs that help destitute people...and even where it's available, as soon as you start getting ahead they pull the same or more out of your benefits.

It's really kind of scary. It's like the system is now designed to kill you by placing you in a situation where one thing going wrong means you're homeless, starving or dead.

[Kingofalldems]

55. So you are agreeing with Jenner?

[Syzygy321]

56. If Jenner meant it in the sympathetic

Last edited Mon Aug 3, 2015, 01:35 PM - Edit history (1)

meaning of "some people take welfare because the jobs they can get don't pay a living wage," then absolutely I agree.

In fact a friend of mine quit her job when she was nine months pregnant because federal assistance and being a SAHM was a better deal for her and her family (and she wanted to be s SAHM) - and I do have mixed feelings about that, especially as she had an unemployed hubby at home to take care of baby and had always given all her money to her church instead of saving any ("God will provide&quot . But, well, it was a low-paid unrewarding job and I could see her side of it.

If jenner meant it in the unsympathetic way of "people on welfare are too lazy to work," that's different. But since I don't know anything about Jenner (don't watch tv) I am happy to give her the ben of the doubt.

[trotsky]

82. Exactly. It's which direction you go with it.

"We need to make jobs pay people a living wage."

vs

"We need to cut welfare to make people either take a low-wage job or starve."

[Fred Sanders]

5. I fail to see how this one reported hearsay exchange means diddly. And you have her name wrong.

[Deadshot]

7. It's not hearsay when it's on video.

[pnwmom]

10. Her show is "I am Cait" and her last name is Jenner.

I said her name is Cait Jenner. What do you think I should have called her?

Also, it's not "hearsay" when you can watch and hear her yourself, on her own TV program.

[Fred Sanders]

11. Apologies, not hearsay. On video. The leap to judgment, though, about her motives is questionable, is all I would say

further about this.

[oberliner]

6. "... later tells the camera"

This is a television show.

[steve2470]

8. it's early days still

Give her time. I think over time, her attitude will change. She's been steeped in RW ideology probably her whole life, so it will take some time. I don't think she's a heartless sociopath, just clueless and has been in a bubble.

[GReedDiamond]

12. Jenner, a self-described Republican...

...is 60+ years old.

What's "early days" about that?

She's had her whole life for her attitude to change - or evolve - what is going to be the catalyzing event that finally wakes her up?

[pnwmom]

13. Exactly. If suffering for decades for fear of coming out hasn't taught her anything

about how the Republican party has made it worse for her, and millions like her, then what will?

[Bluenorthwest]

16. Her fear of coming out was fear of herself, not of outside things and her conservatism was part of

her self protection.
It is interesting that you demand perfection instantly from some for others you say we should tolerate raging bigotry and strident opposition to choice.

[pnwmom]

20. Interesting that you can't keep your virulent anti-Catholic bigotry out of any post on any topic.

To anyone who isn't familiar with this poster, he has a long history of posts to me disparaging the Catholic church. It is clear here what he is alluding to.

[Arugula Latte]

28. The Catholic church is a homophobic, misogynistic institution. It is AGAINST equality.

This is a progressive board. We are free and obligated to criticize repressive rightwing institutions, and the Catholic Church certainly qualifies as one. You can say "Oh, my particular parish/church/priest is so groovy and liberal" but support for a branch of the RCC is still support for the villainous anti-woman, anti-gay, child-rape covering up Vatican.

Do you call people who criticize the RNC "virulent anti-Republican bigots"? If not, why is it okay to criticize Republicanism but not religious beliefs? They are both chosen belief systems. Just because one espouses supernatural/magical thinking does not make it off limits from criticism.

The RCC is a corrupt, malevolent organization and I for one am not going to pretend otherwise.

[pnwmom]

30. The Catholic Church is made up of hundreds of millions of INDIVIDUALS with different points of view.

Supporting one doesn't mean you support all.

[Arugula Latte]

31. Can't the same be said about the Republican party?

The Republican party platform/agenda is anti-gay and anti-women, and the same can be said for the Catholic Church's platform/agenda.

[pnwmom]

33. The Republican party USED to be a big tent, like the Church, with liberals and conservatives.

That has changed. Their most "liberal" Rethug is significantly more conservative than the least conservative Democrat.

At one time your analogy would have made sense but this isn't the Republican party of John Lindsay, Nelson Rockefeller, and other liberals -- or even moderates.

Have you been paying attention to how Pope Francis has been decrying capitalism, and, when asked about gay people, said, "Who am I to judge"? He is nothing like his predecessor and many people have noticed this. No, he is NOT perfect and seems to have a blind spot about women. He is complicated and flawed and so is the Catholic Church. (So is the Democratic party.) But his statements about the economy and climate change would make him comfortable among the furthest left on DU.


Did you read that he invited Naomi Klein to contribute to a conference on climate change and its effects on the third world? She welcomes his support on that, and will be participating. Why are people like you unable to recognize that Pope Francis has been working hard to move the Church in a different direction?

[Arugula Latte]

37. The official policy of the Catholic Church is still BIGOTED under Francis & he backs this shit.

Last edited Mon Aug 3, 2015, 01:10 PM - Edit history (1)

You can pretend Francis is liberal but he actively supports anti-gay and anti-women policies. How anyone can support such a backwards, repressive institution and still call themselves a liberal is beyond me.

http://www.cruxnow.com/church/2015/01/16/pope-francis-criticizes-gay-marriage-backs-contraception-ban/

http://ncronline.org/news/global/children-need-heterosexual-parents-pope-francis-says-after-gay-pride-march

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Pope-Francis-blesses-ban-same-sex-couples/2015/02/04/id/622803/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jennifer-labbadia/pope-francis-has-a-woman-_b_6968974.html

By the way, you've got a lot of nerve calling Bluenorthwest a bigot for despising an institution with a centuries' long track record of hardcore persecution against many groups of people, including gay people like Bluenorthwest. Of COURSE Bluenorthwest hates a bigoted, anti-gay church like the RCC -- it has actively worked to make the lives of gay people fucking MISERABLE for untold years. And this is not just harmless rhetoric. Do you know how many young gay Catholics have killed themselves out of guilt? Would you criticize an African-American for hating a racist, anti-black group? Would you call that person a bigot?

(Edited to change name of DUer I mistyped last night.)

[pnwmom]

39. BlueJazz wasn't the poster I was responding to. And anyone who would post from Newsmax here on DU

isn't thinking very clearly.

It is one thing to criticize the institutional Church. It is another to attack individual Catholics who are DUers and working inside the Church for positive change.

Yes, it is possible to be an anti-Catholic bigot. The KKK is an example of that. People who slur all Catholics, no matter what their actions or beliefs, are being bigots.

[Bluenorthwest]

49. My post was about the Pope who attacks trans people in a thread attacking a trans person. It's

not cool what you are doing. At all. You need to check yourself.

You keep pushing the same old lies about Francis. 'Who am I to judge'. Such bullshit. That quote is not talking about LGBT people with lives and relationships but about sexless priests.

Here is what he actually said:
"If a person, whether it be a lay person, a priest or a religious sister, commits a sin and then converts, the Lord forgives, and when the Lord forgives, the Lord forgets and this is very important for our lives. When we confess our sins and we truly say, “I have sinned in this”, the Lord forgets, and so we have no right not to forget, because otherwise we would run the risk of the Lord not forgetting our sins. That is a danger. This is important: a theology of sin. Many times I think of Saint Peter. He committed one of the worst sins, that is he denied Christ, and even with this sin they made him Pope. We have to think a great deal about that. . . . I believe that when you are dealing with such a person, you must distinguish between the fact of a person being gay and the fact of someone forming a lobby, because not all lobbies are good. This one is not good. If someone is gay and is searching for the Lord and has good will, then who am I to judge him? The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this in a beautiful way, saying . . . wait a moment, how does it say it . . . it says: “No one should marginalize these people for this, they must be integrated into society”. The problem is not having this tendency, no, we must be brothers and sisters to one another, and there is this one and there is that one."

He cites the Catechism which says:
"The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.
Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."


Why that one phrase is edited out of that long winded speech is obvious. It is a mendacious editing.

[Arugula Latte]

57. I typed that late at night. I meant Bluenorthwest, but you knew that.

Those articles aren't false just because you don't like one source.

You can selectively pick phrases and word pick but that does not erase the fact that Francis is anti-gay and anti-women and continues to push policies to keep these groups from having full rights as humans.

So before you get up on your high horse about Caitlin Jenner you might want to look at the rightwing people YOU support and enable.

[snooper2]

62. all of those different views are based on one creature from mythology though

who was apparently a carpenter who told good stories....

[Bluenorthwest]

47. You, who support those who attack LGBT are saying a T is not an 'ally'. YOU should be the ally to

her in this case. LGBT people AND allies. No one has ever said that being LGBT or any other minority makes a person a Democrat. Duh. But we support them in their identity not in their politics.

I am disparaging you for having a double standard. You promote preachers who say gay people are from Satan. Then you pick on LGBT people for not being liberal enough? Yeah, she's a right winger. So is the Pope, anti gay, anti choice and you excuse his bigotry and promote him as good,

You started an OP about this. You, who promote anti choice political activists, anti trans activists on this board, started an OP like this one. Charming.

[pnwmom]

59. She's not really being an ally except for those in the 1%. They are trying to tell her that they

need social programs and she's telling them they should get jobs.

[Arugula Latte]

60. The disconnect is astounding, isn't it?

[LanternWaste]

68. I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that particular and dramatic inconsistency.

"You, who promote anti choice political activists, anti trans activists on this board, started an OP like this one..."

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that particular and dramatic inconsistency.

[steve2470]

14. no, I meant early days as being a woman

I'm hopeful that as she goes along, her participation in that community will change her. Maybe not. She might opt to only mingle in conservative circles, which, I would think, would make her life a lot more difficult. We'll see.

[GReedDiamond]

36. This makes no sense to me

..."no, I meant early days as being a woman."

Caitlyn has apparently self-identified as a Woman - and as a Republican - for at least a couple of decades, IIRC.

[steve2470]

38. ok, I'll refine what I mean

Being a woman in public all the time. Yes, I know she's been a Republican for many years and identified as a woman internally for a long time. As I said, I'm hoping that exposure to transgender people will change her attitudes. Maybe not. Maybe she's hopelessly selfish and narcissistic and uncaring, etc. I guess I'm a dreamer.

BTW, thanks for your help with my son some time ago. I don't know if he will eventually pursue it as a career, but I support him if he does.

[snooper2]

63. maybe sexual orientation has nothing to do with political affiliation

Log Cabin Republicans anyone?

Oh,

And the reason her views are simplistic is because she really just isn't that fucking bright LOL. Fuck, being around Kim for years and years probably took a few IQ points by itself

[steve2470]

72. of course, you're correct

No, she's no rocket scientist, for sure. I remain hopeful that being in the transgender community will change her views. Maybe not. If she deliberately isolates herself to only the conservative community, she probably won't change. We'll see.

[RichGirl]

25. My guess is that....

When you are a man trapped in a womans body you probably want to do all things macho. Republicans just seem more macho...guns and all.

[cwydro]

26. This is a person in her 60's

She is not going to change.

I find it hilarious that we're supposed to think Jenner is some wonderful person because of her transition.

[steve2470]

29. people can change at ANY age, sorry

Yes, it's harder and less likely at older ages. I'll give her a pass for a while. YMMV.

[cwydro]

48. It won't happen.

I'd bet money on that.

[LanternWaste]

69. Almost as hilarious as the non-existent posts concluding we're supposed to believe she's a hero...

Almost as hilarious as the non-existent posts concluding we're supposed to believe she's a hero...

[cwydro]

81. There was so much swooning and fawning over her here.

I just didn't get it.

[UTUSN]

18. I agree. I tuned into the 'dash people for a season to see what everybody was talking about

then consciously uncoupled. I ain't even coupling here.

[LuvNewcastle]

42. I ain't coupling neither.

[Initech]

21. While I applaud Ms. Jenner for bringing trans issues to the national spotlight...

She is in for a rude awakening. Ms. Jenner has always been a member of the upper 1% for most of her life. What she experiences is not, and I repeat, is not what the average trans man / woman experiences in their everyday life. The harassment, family abandonment, murder... Ms. Jenner will experience none of these things.

[RichGirl]

24. The way I look at it....

If Cait supports the GOP candidate it will hurt them not help them...since republicans are probably repulsed by her.

Last thing they want to see is their macho candidate, whoever that will be...standing next to a tranny.

[Oneironaut]

27. While I like what Jenner has done for the trans community,

I still don't like her or the Kardashians. The trans community deserves a better spokesman or spokeswoman.

[valerief]

35. Too bad there isn't a surgical procedure to remove the GOP assholishness. nt

[JI7]

40. i don't think anyone is saying she is some great liberal

[pnwmom]

41. No, but I think everyone was hoping she'd be an ally. If she doesn't change her thinking

she won't be much of an ally -- except for other wealthy, prominent transgender people.

[jberryhill]

51. She's not going to change

why should she change her thinking any more than, say, Ann Coulter or any other conservative woman?

[Cha]

43. "A Conservative says, "It hasn't happened to me so I don't care". A Liberal says, "It should never..

happen to anyone and that's why I care".

by Brandon Ottinger · Owner at My Own Business

First comment under article.. says it for me..

shows how little Cait Jenner knows when she says.. she ".. will give President Obama credit for being the first to say Transgender" when that's the very least he has done for the Transgender community. She's ill informed to put it kindly.

Mahalo pnwmom.

[pnwmom]

44. Mahalo, Cha!

[Cha]

45. Aloha, pnwmom!

[stillwaiting]

46. Every time I see Caitlyn in the media she appears to be HUGELY narcissistic.

To be fair, I haven't watched a SECOND of any of her reality shows. And, I won't be watching her new one either.

The way her entire family carries themselves though (i.e. the energy they give off) is extraordinarily shallow, narcissistic, and ultimately very selfish.

And with that said, I am still glad she has helped the transgendered community.

She's not someone I have a high opinion of though. Someone who is financially privileged that spouts such conservative bullshit is simply an asshole. A rude asshole.

[dembotoz]

50. i can not see why folks are shocked. Like you expected the rich guy to be a socialist????

[Cal Carpenter]

52. "Guy"?

[Gothmog]

54. Jenner is a republican and this is to be expected

[Prism]

58. So what?

Not all LGBTers are liberal or Democratic. Expect a monolith and you're going to have a bad time. I'm not going to excoriate Caitlyn any more or less than I would excoriate anyone else for their views.

She's bringing visibility to trans rights. Good. That's all I'd really want or expect from her.

The fact that she remained a Republican 1%er? Who's really shocked by that? It's not like orientation or gender identity magically bestow an entirely new ideological point of view.

What am I supposed to do? Bash her for being especially worse than other Republicans because she's trans? Meh. I don't do that. And I certainly don't cotton to heterosexuals who judge my brothers and sisters on account. "Oh, you're transgender, so you should hold my politics." World doesn't work that way. Never has.

[pnwmom]

61. Yeah, maybe I shouldn't have had higher expectations because of her situation, but I did.

During my childhood, my family lived in a few middle to upper-middle communities My father was working his way up in a company, but there were people surrounding us with a lot more money. Through it all both my parents were strong progressives in communities full of Republicans. My father especially was active in civil rights and talked about male white privilege -- a lot.

It all made sense when I hit my twenties and my parents divorced and my dad came out as gay. He, like Jenner, had always identified as an outsider. But unlike Jenner, it informed his view of politics and contributed to making him different from people in the communities we lived in.

And there were repercussions that won't be happening to Jenner. Self-employed by then, my father lost most of his clients in the few years after he came out. He ended up retiring early, but leading a happier life with less.

[Prism]

65. Wealth is an excellent insulator from hardship

In the LGBT community, it isn't uncommon at all to see wealthier people hold conservative or Republican views. Like with those gay hoteliers who hosted the Ted Cruz dinner. They had money, and all their politics were mainly informed by that money.

It also created a lot of division even within LGBT Democrats during President Obama's first term. While the community was protesting, the professional activist/Establishment crowd wanted much more accomodationist tactics. This drove the rest of the community nuts. People like the heads of the Human Rights Campaign were too busy protecting their access, their wealth, and their connected friends. They were referred to derisively as "the cocktail set" by those of us that did not share their privilege. Eventually they collapsed in the face of a community on the edge of full-on revolt.

That aside, it's not uncommon to find LGBTers who are really only liberal or Democratic because of gay rights issues. One of the things I'm interested to see over the next decade or so is if the Democratic Party maintains a 75% share of the LGBT vote now that marriage is resolved. There are still discriminatory/equality issues to work out at the moment, but I think, if it weren't for the Dem/Repub divide on LGBT equality, you'd see a more "normalized" breakdown in LGBT conservatism/liberalism in relation to the rest of the general population.

I think, because prominent LGBT activists and organizations tend to be themselves very liberal or leftist, that people get the impression most of us are. But that isn't much the case. We're a very, very diverse spectrum of ideologies.

[pnwmom]

70. I have wondered about that, too.

Will marriage equality mean that the LGBT people no longer feel more connected with the Democratic party? Or will we remain in a situation like we have with abortion? That even though the law has changed, there's still enough opposition among the Rethugs to make that party seem unwelcoming.

I'm guessing you're right that the LGBT breakdown will eventually "normalize"; so the only question may be when.

[Prism]

71. There are a number of complicated factors

Part of it is that LGBTers aren't born into a shared ideological culture. We come from every ideology conceivable, and I think that's why you usually see LGBT support for Democrats top out at 75% (as opposed to 90+% from a community like African Americans). LGBTers aren't raised in a Democratic-supporting culture as a default.

A second part is that LGBTers are less shuttled into a shared adolescent/adult ideology. Used to be, if you were gay and living in a terrible area, you moved to an urban place and took residence in a "gay ghetto". There are scores of articles about the demise of the gay neighborhoods over the past decade. As acceptance has spread, LGBT youth feel less a need to move into or primarily reside in a homogeneous community. They are beginning to feel safe among their own heterosexual peer groups, and the rise of social media and internet/app dating makes for a less isolating experience overall.

And the third, I would venture to say, is economic. As acceptance, marriage, and nondiscrimination laws have spread throughout states, many LGBTers stop thinking quite so much on their own social justice issues and more towards their own economic stability. If you live in, say, California (and a solid chunk of us do), you're not thinking of LGBT discrimination on a day to day basis. You have laws protecting you, the ability to marry and adopt, and a social and professional culture that is generally pretty accepting. So, social justice falls a bit by the wayside as life and family and work take over.

These are, of course, very generalized statements with exceptions all over the place. Discrimination still exists and there is much work left to do, but this seems to be the trajectory the community is currently on. I would expect LGBTers will remain lopsidedly Democratic and liberal for quite awhile - especially if Republicans continue to be batshit - but if it fades in about 10-20 years, I wouldn't be too surprised. Once marriage and anti-discrimination laws become a fact of life everywhere, you'll see the rise of a generation of LGBTers who won't feel the same sense of loyalty towards the Democratic Party that many of us currently possess. They won't have experienced the battle. They'll take for granted the results.

We'll see, though.

[OnlyBernieBurnsBush]

83. It could very well happen...

Generally speaking, there is less racism in the settler countries of the British Commonwealth than there is in the United States and in France, and we see that reflected in the fact that immigrants and minorities, particularly in my native Canada, are far less likely to all support one party (they're pretty split three ways between liberalism, social democracy, and conservatism, as it should be in a mature political community).

[HereSince1628]

64. Jenner is unlike any gender dysphoric person I ever met.

And I've met a few via clinical support settings.

Jenner's politics aside, I think Jenner's interest in making money via mining celebrity is the most outstanding difference I've ever encountered.

People I know who had m-t-f drive sought psychic relief rather than celebrity, and often found it in small but meaningful physiologic phenomena that were feminizing.

No doubt my experience is a small statistical pool, but I find Jenner very unlike anyone I've met who was dealing with GD.

I don't mean to be judgmental when I say that, it's just unlike my limited experience.

I've thought about why I get that "feeling" a bit. What I find most different is actually Jenner's apparent exhibitionist/celebrity drive. I suppose it's part of the same drive that created a revenue stream through Kardashian television. Maybe this is just individual variation...

But, the small circle of people I know who are in similar circumstance, really want a very personal and private reconciliation with their own lives.

Jenner just stands apart from my experience.

[cbdo2007]

67. Bruce/Caitlyn comes from the current most attention seeking family in the world...

and found a way to out-do the rest of the Jenner/Kardashian clan with this. We'll see if it lasts but it doesn't seem to be a very positive look at real people going through these same issues.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

66. These shows are scripted

My guess is there is a story arc where Caitlyn "grows" about her feelings towards the poor.

It's all bullshit. And it's why I don't think she's a good spokesperson.

[pnwmom]

75. She never did. But many here were hoping she'd want to be one. So far,

she's showing that she mostly has wealthy, conservative friends.

[KG]

74. what does that dipstick know about having job?

[AllFieldsRequired]

76. Disgusting views she has, that is for damn sure.

[Ilsa]

77. This snide GOP talking point is proof that minimum wage needs

To be doubled.

[ladyVet]

78. Well, it would be nice if she could see other people's troubles like some saw hers.

I never expected her to change politically or empathatically, but I supported her decision to become the person she felt she should be.

[rusty fender]

79. So many DUers fawned over her as

the new messiah for the LGBT community. A couple of DUers even wanted to have me banned from DU because I disrespected Jenner. How wretched can some people get?

[Syzygy321]

80. Welcome back to eighth grade.

Where rigid conformity is enforced - by people who consider themselves avant-garde.