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Fri May 18, 2012, 11:13 AM

Massive tax fraud by undocumented workers in Indiana

If it's happening to this extent in Indiana it must be nationwide...

20 kids = $30,000

WTHR spoke to several undocumented workers who confirmed it is easy.

They all agreed to talk with WTHR investigative reporter Bob Segall and a translator as long as WTHR agreed not to reveal their identity.

One of the workers, who was interviewed at his home in southern Indiana, admitted his address was used this year to file tax returns by four other undocumented workers who don't even live there. Those four workers claimed 20 children live inside the one residence and, as a result, the IRS sent the illegal immigrants tax refunds totaling $29,608.

13 Investigates saw only one little girl who lives at that address (a small mobile home). We wondered about the 20 kids claimed as tax deductions?

"They don't live here," said the undocumented worker. "The other kids are in their country of origin, which is Mexico."

He later explained none of the 20 children have ever visited the United States – let alone lived here.

So why should undocumented workers receive tax credits for children living in a foreign country, which is a violation of IRS tax rules?

"If the opportunity is there and they can give it to me, why not take advantage of it?" the worker said.

Other undocumented workers in Indiana told 13 Investigates the same thing. Their families are collecting tax refunds for children who do not live in this country. Several of the workers told WTHR they were told it was legal for them to claim the tax credit for a child who does not live in the United States.

http://www.wthr.com/story/17798210/tax-loophole-costs-billions

62 replies, 5741 views

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Arrow 62 replies Author Time Post
Reply Massive tax fraud by undocumented workers in Indiana (Original post)
True Earthling May 2012 OP
sinkingfeeling May 2012 #1
ret5hd May 2012 #2
True Earthling May 2012 #4
Vanje May 2012 #54
4th law of robotics May 2012 #6
former9thward May 2012 #7
dems_rightnow May 2012 #9
obnoxiousdrunk May 2012 #3
sadbear May 2012 #35
Pisces May 2012 #5
4th law of robotics May 2012 #8
True Earthling May 2012 #14
4th law of robotics May 2012 #18
True Earthling May 2012 #10
zzaapp May 2012 #11
GeorgeGist May 2012 #12
jehop61 May 2012 #13
Major Nikon May 2012 #16
The-Roof-Is-On-Fire May 2012 #23
trof May 2012 #51
coalition_unwilling May 2012 #15
True Earthling May 2012 #17
coalition_unwilling May 2012 #24
True Earthling May 2012 #29
Rex May 2012 #30
coalition_unwilling May 2012 #37
True Earthling May 2012 #40
coalition_unwilling May 2012 #41
True Earthling May 2012 #46
coalition_unwilling May 2012 #47
Chan790 May 2012 #55
Hell Hath No Fury May 2012 #19
True Earthling May 2012 #21
coalition_unwilling May 2012 #22
4th law of robotics May 2012 #20
coalition_unwilling May 2012 #25
4th law of robotics May 2012 #27
coalition_unwilling May 2012 #38
4th law of robotics May 2012 #43
coalition_unwilling May 2012 #48
4th law of robotics May 2012 #58
4th law of robotics May 2012 #28
coalition_unwilling May 2012 #39
4th law of robotics May 2012 #42
coalition_unwilling May 2012 #49
4th law of robotics May 2012 #59
coalition_unwilling May 2012 #60
4th law of robotics May 2012 #61
coalition_unwilling May 2012 #62
Romulox May 2012 #26
EFerrari May 2012 #31
Major Nikon May 2012 #32
EFerrari May 2012 #33
Major Nikon May 2012 #34
LanternWaste May 2012 #36
True Earthling May 2012 #44
LanternWaste May 2012 #45
Blue_Tires May 2012 #50
CreekDog May 2012 #52
trof May 2012 #53
Vanje May 2012 #56
Hissyspit May 2012 #57

Response to True Earthling (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:16 AM

1. Sure. No wonder Indiana is blood red.

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Response to True Earthling (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:20 AM

2. Why is it fraud if the IRS says it is legal?

not stating a position on whether it SHOULD be legal but:

<snip from your link>
What does the IRS have to say about all this?

The agency sent WTHR a statement, defending its policy of paying tax credits to illegal immigrants.

"The law has been clear for over a decade that eligibility for these credits does not depend on work authorization status or the type of taxpayer identification number used. Any suggestion that the IRS shouldn't be paying out these credits under current law to ITIN holders is simply incorrect. The IRS administers the law impartially and applies it as it is written," the statement said.
</snip>

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #2)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:25 AM

4. It's illegal to report children living in a false address in Indiana

when they're actually in Mexico.

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Response to True Earthling (Reply #4)

Fri May 18, 2012, 05:49 PM

54. If the children live in a trailer on some farm acerage

or in a car, What will the parents claim as their residential address?

There are a lot of Mexican families with kids in school locally (Homedale / Wilder Idaho) who have no residential address.
Should'nt these children be counted as dependents on their parents taxes?


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Response to ret5hd (Reply #2)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:27 AM

6. Rich people use tax loopholes all the time to get benefits and people get upset about that

 

I see it the same way: perhaps it is technically legal, but it shouldn't be.

So fraud may not be the right term. But it is dishonest.

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #2)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:28 AM

7. It is fraud because the children don't exist.

And the other people claiming the deductions at that mobile home are fictional too.

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Response to ret5hd (Reply #2)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:31 AM

9. The IRS doesn't say it's legal, quite the opposite.

Children who have never been to the US fail both of these tests to claim the credit:

Citizenship Test - To meet the citizenship test, the child must be a U.S. citizen, U.S. national, or U.S. resident alien.

Residence Test - The child must have lived with you for more than half of the year.

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Response to True Earthling (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:20 AM

3. Don't you need a

SSN for the kids ??

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Response to obnoxiousdrunk (Reply #3)

Fri May 18, 2012, 02:22 PM

35. I had a return rejected by the IRS

because I messed up my son's SSN by one digit. These people would need 20 legitimate SSN's to pull of this kind of fraud. Story smells fishy.

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Response to True Earthling (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:26 AM

5. Interesting that 30k outrages you, but 65 million from the Facebook guy doesn't merit a post from

you?? Your selective outrage on who should use the tax loopholes and who shouldn't says it all.

Look at Romney and his Cayman accounts. I am sure you can find millions of unpaid tax loopholes he has taken advantage
of.

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Response to Pisces (Reply #5)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:29 AM

8. Both, I think are outrageous

 

Consider: there are on the low estimate 10 million people living here illegally.

That means if they get 6 and a half bucks per from the tax system they are costing us the same as the fella from facebook.

It's easier to be outraged by the one guy who get's away with a lot, but that doesn't mean that a lot of people getting away with a little aren't also a problem.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #8)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:50 AM

14. ITIN filers claimed $4.2B in tax credits in 2010

from the article...

Claims for additional child tax credits by ITIN filers have skyrocketed during the past decade, from $161 million in 2001 to $4.2 billion in tax year 2010.

· Undocumented workers filed 3.02 million tax returns in 2010. 72% of those returns (2.18 million) claimed the additional child tax credit.

· In 2010, the IRS owed undocumented workers more in claimed additional child tax credits than it collected from those workers in taxes.

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Response to True Earthling (Reply #14)

Fri May 18, 2012, 12:01 PM

18. That's quite a bit of money

 

we could certainly use that for other things.

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Response to Pisces (Reply #5)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:34 AM

10. I didn't see the thread. Obviously Severin's crime is worse

and should be banned from re-entering the country. There are lot's of threads I didn't post on. What does that say about me?

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Response to True Earthling (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:43 AM

11. Fraud, no matter how you try to spin it.

 

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Response to True Earthling (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:45 AM

12. Fail

This is so last week. Try to keep up.

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Response to True Earthling (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:49 AM

13. This is old news

It was posted several weeks ago. I wonder just how someone could get a "REFUND" on his taxes on 20 children. Doesn't REFUND mean you already paid something and are getting it back because the government took too much? This story doesn't pass the smell test and the tv station that showed it is very very suspect. Do you believe everything you see on tv and on the "nets"?

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Response to jehop61 (Reply #13)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:55 AM

16. You can get a tax refund even if you paid zero federal income tax

So a "refund" doesn't always mean you paid too much.

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Response to jehop61 (Reply #13)

Fri May 18, 2012, 12:05 PM

23. Tax credits.

 

You were wondering how someone gets money back that they didn't pay in...read up on tax credits.

Education is empowerment.

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Response to jehop61 (Reply #13)

Fri May 18, 2012, 05:14 PM

51. The exact same story showed up in and about Alabama a few weeks ago. RW Astro-turf?

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Response to True Earthling (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:51 AM

15. Are those undocumented workers driving their welfare cadillacs to

 

the local supermarket to buy foie de gras and caviar?



channeling my inner Reagan.

This is such right wing, anti-worker horseshit.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #15)

Fri May 18, 2012, 11:56 AM

17. Do you believe they deserve the tax credits?

I'm against fraud regardless of who commits it. What kind of society would it be to selectively prosecute crimes... look the other way for those we have sympathy for and prosecute those we dislike? The law should be applied equally to all.

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Response to True Earthling (Reply #17)

Fri May 18, 2012, 12:08 PM

24. They deserve the tax credits as much or more than 1% of the country's

 

population 'deserves' to own\control 40% of its wealth and 10% to own\control 80% of its wealth.

Since we're talking 'deserves'.

Flame away

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #24)

Fri May 18, 2012, 12:28 PM

29. So as long as there is a 1% it's ok to break the law

and take advantage of other taxpayers to even things out? The $4.2B that these workers received came from somewhere.... the taxes collected from other workers.

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Response to True Earthling (Reply #29)

Fri May 18, 2012, 12:43 PM

30. Well you know how it goes, 'monkey see monkey do'.

Citizens see crime commited by the leaders/owners of their country, why not they as well? It is shitty piss poor leaders that instead commit crimes that become the champions of those that might not have considered a life of crime in the first place.

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Response to True Earthling (Reply #29)

Fri May 18, 2012, 03:25 PM

37. Capital (and capital gains) are generally taxed at a far lower rate (15%) than

 

income from labor for most workers. So forgive me if I fail to lose much sleep over the rearranging of deck chairs on the U.S.S. Titanic.

Note we were talking about the question of who 'deserves' what, not the morality or lack thereof over obeying the laws of a highly suspect capitalist state where wealth and opportunity are highly concentrated and daily becoming more so. After Katrina and the smashing of Occupy by a federally coordinated attack nationwide, it should be obvious to all but the most somnolent that it's every person for him- or herself. The government has for the most part abandoned, and declared its enmity for, the working and middle class.

If you wish to keep whistling past the graveyard, more power to ya.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #37)

Fri May 18, 2012, 03:41 PM

40. So you have no problem with those who do not pay taxes or defraud the gov't?

If it's every person for him/herself then it's anarchy. Is that what you're advocating?

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Response to True Earthling (Reply #40)

Fri May 18, 2012, 04:06 PM

41. I have a problem with a society where 80% of the wealth is controlled by 10%

 

of the population.

Is that what you're advocating?

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #41)

Fri May 18, 2012, 04:44 PM

46. Not at all.

I advocate the law equally applied to all but the law has to be fair as well. I don't advocate fraud and theft as a form of social justice.

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Response to True Earthling (Reply #46)

Fri May 18, 2012, 05:02 PM

47. As the 19th-century French novelist Balzac put it, "Behind

 

every great fortune lies a great crime."

Sometimes the social contract becomes so corrupt and rotted from the inside out that only a fresh start will fix matters. I believe we are living in such a time, reminiscent of France 1789 or Russia 1917.

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Response to True Earthling (Reply #40)

Fri May 18, 2012, 05:52 PM

55. No and not so much advocating it as realizing Bakunin might have been onto something. :D n/t

“To revolt is a natural tendency of life. Even a worm turns against the foot that crushes it. In general, the vitality and relative dignity of an animal can be measured by the intensity of its instinct to revolt.”

“The liberty of man consists solely in this: that he obeys natural laws because he has himself recognized them as such, and not because they have been externally imposed upon him by any extrinsic will whatever, divine or human, collective or individual”

“Does it follow that I reject all authority? Perish the thought. In the matter of boots, I defer to the authority of the boot-maker.”

-All quotes Mikhail Bakunin

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #15)

Fri May 18, 2012, 12:01 PM

19. Did you know pot use was associated with aggression?

OP was kind enough to point that out to us once THC was found in Martin's blood. Ahem.

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Response to Hell Hath No Fury (Reply #19)

Fri May 18, 2012, 12:04 PM

21. What does that have to do with this thread?

Please explain.

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Response to Hell Hath No Fury (Reply #19)

Fri May 18, 2012, 12:05 PM

22. The only thing pot use made me aggressive about was eating

 

too many chocolate chip cookies

While I long ago discontinued the pot use, my aggressive tendencies toward chocolate chip cookies (and all things chocolate, actually) remain unabated.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #15)

Fri May 18, 2012, 12:01 PM

20. Supporting government subsidies for low wage earners

 

that drive down wages for american laborers and make organizing all that more difficult = pro-worker?

With friends like this . . .

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #20)

Fri May 18, 2012, 12:09 PM

25. Oh please. Your specious logic and race-baiting national

 

chauvinism are quite telling.

Care to explain how 'government subsidies for low wage earners' make organizing all that more difficult? Otherwise, spare me the right wing cant.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #25)

Fri May 18, 2012, 12:13 PM

27. Specious logic:

 

The availability of 10+ million disposable low wage workers that can be held to lower safety/health standards than American workers harms the ability of American workers to demand better conditions.

You I assume believe that they are helping to drive up wages and improve labor conditions by . . . magic perhaps?

Race-baiting: never mentioned race.

national chavinism: well if you mean I think American tax dollars should primarily benefit Americans who are now suffering yes, I suppose so.

You believe our wealth should instead be used to the benefit of everyone else while American workers struggle to make ends meet?

And government subsidies to these people mean they can work for even lower wages. Meaning that at the mere hint of organizing those companies that still employ americans will gladly kick them all out for near slave workers.

Explain how adding a large number of easily exploited low wage workers improves the lot of the rest please.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #27)

Fri May 18, 2012, 03:30 PM

38. Reality check: if the government somehow magically (speaking of magic) got

 

rid of every undocumented worker in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan area, the entire city would come to a screeching, grinding halt. Hint: it ain't the gringos who are mowing the lawns, changing the diapers and collecting the garbage here.

You're either for workers or you're not. Undocumented workers are workers first and citizens of some arbitrary nation-state second.

40% of the wealth of this country is controlled by 1% of the population. And 80% of the wealth of this country is controlled by 10% of the population. News flash: the 1% (or 10%) are not, generally speaking, undocumented workers.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #38)

Fri May 18, 2012, 04:09 PM

43. So any explanation as to how having 10+ million illegal workers helps the lot of American workers?

 

Anyone?

Bueller?

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #43)

Fri May 18, 2012, 05:03 PM

48. There's no such thing as an 'illegal worker' (or "illegal human being" for that matter), except

 

in right wing fascist fantasy land.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #48)

Sun May 20, 2012, 06:14 PM

58. There's no such thing as an 'illegal worker'

 

Actually according to the law, there is.

You may be basing your definition of legal/illegal on something else (the Bible perhaps). But generally speaking it's based on the law.

And the law clearly defines who may and who may not work in the US for a wage.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #25)

Fri May 18, 2012, 12:20 PM

28. Out of curiosity; what are your thoughts on outsourcing

 

you know, forcing Americans to compete with low wage workers in a game that benefits owners and drives wages down.

You're cool with that right? You think anyone who argues against outsourcing is a racist no doubt.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #28)

Fri May 18, 2012, 03:32 PM

39. If capital is allowed to move freely across borders (what you call

 

"outsourcing"), then labor should be free also to move freely across borders.

I think anyone who argues against outsourcing is failing to back the international working class. Sometimes that's racism, sometimes it's national chauvinism and sometimes (as in the case of MinuteMen), it's both.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #39)

Fri May 18, 2012, 04:09 PM

42. So just to clarify: you are pro-outsourcing

 

and you claim to also stand up for working Americans.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #42)

Fri May 18, 2012, 05:04 PM

49. Straw man alert. Did you bother to read what I wrote? - n/t

 

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #49)

Sun May 20, 2012, 06:15 PM

59. I don't think you even understand how your policies are harming workers

 

you no doubt believe in a highminded way that you are working for international solidarity or whatever.

But in reality by promoting the use of wage lowering illegal labor you are only harming american workers to the benefit of the 1%.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #59)

Sun May 20, 2012, 06:25 PM

60. You clearly DID NOT READ what I wrote. I said, "IF capital is allowed

 

to move freely across borders, then labor should be allowed to move freely across borders too."

Do I have to spell it out for you any more clearly? if labor is not allowed to move freely across borders, then capital should not be allowed to move across borders either.

Screw you. I was a labor shop steward. All you do is spew. So screw you. I am a democratic socialist and an internationalist. YOU ARE A NATIONALIST AND A CRYPTO-FASCIST.

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Response to coalition_unwilling (Reply #60)

Sun May 20, 2012, 06:34 PM

61. You side with the owners who seek near slave labor

 

then call me a fascist.

Interesting.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #61)

Sun May 20, 2012, 10:28 PM

62. Funny that you say I side with owners when I favor expropriating

 

the wealth of the 1% and placing it under public control.

You, on the other hand, spout nationalistic tripe like 'American jobs for American workers' and expect not to get called on it.

Interesting indeed.

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Response to 4th law of robotics (Reply #20)

Fri May 18, 2012, 12:11 PM

26. Exactly. Government subsidizes cheap labor, hammering working people and enriching the 1%. nt

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Response to True Earthling (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2012, 12:46 PM

31. Who is the source for this story?

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #31)

Fri May 18, 2012, 01:26 PM

32. 'unnamed sources'

Surprise, surprise.

Even if it's true to the exent the story would have you believe (and I highly doubt it is), pointing this out while failing to mention the 40% of bonafide US citizens who cheat on their taxes seems more than a little disingenuous.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #32)

Fri May 18, 2012, 01:30 PM

33. Unnamed undocumented workers.

So, are they telling the truth to the reporter or were they telling the truth to the IRS or what?

This story was just a clear attempt to rile nativist anti-immigrant feeling.

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #33)

Fri May 18, 2012, 02:18 PM

34. I had already heard the story from two different wingnuts

So it's definitely making the rounds within wingnut circles. That alone is very telling, even before you realize it's ridiculously easy to debunk.

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Response to True Earthling (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2012, 02:45 PM

36. If it ever reaches the extent of corporate fraud, I'll allow it due consideration...

If it ever reaches the extent of corporate fraud (e.g, KPMG defrauded the government for 11 billion dollars, businessman Water Anderson, or Deutsche Bank), I'll allow it consideration.

Until then, I can only presume that those focusing on the aberration of tax fraud by undocumented workers rather than the frauds that actually make a dent in our collective treasury are less interested in tax fraud, and more interested in finding irrelevant criticisms regarding undocumented workers.



And just a heads-up...
"If it's happening to this extent in Indiana it must be nationwide... " That is a logical fallacy known as Denying the Antecedent

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #36)

Fri May 18, 2012, 04:23 PM

44. Abberration? 2.3M returns - over $4B paid

Disapproving tax fraud by undocumented workers does not imply approval of tax fraud by the 1% or corporations.

Since the 1% and corporations don't pay their fair share of taxes then the $4B paid in credits to the undocumented workers came from honest working taxpayers. You're advocating theft and fraud as a form of social justice which is really harming the average law abiding taxpayer. The money taken out by fraud has to be made up from somewhere... additional gov't debt, job cuts, higher taxes etc. which we all pay for.

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Response to True Earthling (Reply #44)

Fri May 18, 2012, 04:33 PM

45. appears you're inferring sentiments simply that don't exist.

"You're advocating theft and fraud as a form of social justice ..."

Nope-- appears you're inferring sentiments simply that don't exist-- unless of course you can point to the relevant and specific implication which may only be interpreted as such.


I simply do not give due consideration to mice when a pack of lions appears. Crack open some research (e.g., Wenzel's The Impact of Outcome Orientation and Justice Concerns on Tax Compliance, Tax Havens: How Globalization Really Works by Ronen Palan, & Treasure Islands: Uncovering the Damage of Offshore Banking and Tax Havens by Nicholas Shaxson) to find out that the bulk of tax fraud and evasion (in dollar amounts) is by far due to the machinations of corporations.

I realize that may not validate your narrative, but until you at least cite sources (other than simply "unnamed sources" as per the OP article), you're blowing wind without an instrument...

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Response to True Earthling (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2012, 05:08 PM

50. There was a similar issue in Maryland

It used to be laughably easy to get a driver's license there because they never used to double-check the addresses on the application...So a lot of undocumented immigrants used imaginary house numbers or dozens of people would use one 'real' address

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Response to True Earthling (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2012, 05:24 PM

52. people cheating on their taxes? and you act surprised?



and the article has a mistake.

it's not a "loophole" if you cheat the system out of illegally taken tax deductions and/or tax credits.

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Response to True Earthling (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2012, 05:30 PM

53. Viral 'Tax Loophole' Video is Misleading. (Forbes)

Earlier this month, a reader sent me an email with a link to a news clip from Channel 13 (WHTR in Indianapolis) with the title “13 Investigates: IRS tax loophole.” She wrote:
“I was wondering if it was true…seems a little far-fetched to me.”

checked it out and dismissed it as much ado about nothing.

But then I saw it on Twitter.

And I saw it on Facebook.

And I realized that the video had gone viral as taxpayer outrage mounted.

But folks are mad about the wrong thing.

This is not a loophole. It’s tax fraud. Those are two totally different things. And Channel 13 knows it.

A loophole is an ambiguity. There’s nothing ambiguous about what’s going on here: this kind of fraud simply isn’t allowable under the Tax Code. The credit that the report refers to is the Additional Tax Credit and it’s claimed on a federal form 8812 (form downloads as a pdf). The credit is for certain taxpayers who get less than the full amount of the child tax credit – it is not some kind of loophole for undocumented workers to use to beef up their refunds. The rules for qualifying children still apply and it’s very clear that the credit is restricted to those children who are classified as “a U.S. citizen, a U.S. national, or a U.S. resident alien.”

Nonresident aliens – meaning those living abroad like those cited in the news piece – don’t qualify. And the scenarios that were noted in the piece? Those instances are used as the example of what doesn’t count in the IRS Publication on child tax credits.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2012/05/15/viral-tax-loophole-video-is-misleading-taxpayer-fraud-is-a-much-bigger-problem/

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Response to True Earthling (Original post)

Fri May 18, 2012, 06:05 PM

56. So THATS why our economy is sunk...



These guys are taking all the money!

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Response to Vanje (Reply #56)

Sat May 19, 2012, 05:36 PM

57. THAT'S IT!



This has been the most important DU thread ever!

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