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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsKrugman: Europe Wins
Tsipras and Syriza have won big in the referendum, strengthening their hand for whatever comes next. But they’re not the only winners: I would argue that Europe, and the European idea, just won big — at least in the sense of dodging a bullet.
I know that’s not how most people see it. But think of it this way: we have just witnessed Greece stand up to a truly vile campaign of bullying and intimidation, an attempt to scare the Greek public, not just into accepting creditor demands, but into getting rid of their government. It was a shameful moment in modern European history, and would have set a truly ugly precedent if it had succeeded.
But it didn’t. You don’t have to love Syriza, or believe that they know what they’re doing — it’s not clear that they do, although the troika has been even worse — to believe that European institutions have just been saved from their own worst instincts. If Greece had been forced into line by financial fear mongering, Europe would have sinned in a way that would sully its reputation for generations. Instead, it’s something we can, perhaps, eventually regard as an aberration.
And if Greece ends up exiting the euro? There’s actually a pretty good case for Grexit now — and in any case, democracy matters more than any currency arrangement.
I'm pretty proud of our Greek brothers and sisters today!
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BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)Europe can win if they come back to the bargaining table with a liberal economic plan to help Greece and themselves.
SunSeeker
(51,513 posts)
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)That's the thing so many DU'ers don't remember about the French Revolution.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Ah, history.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... when those in power act like the French elites then where they feel they have nothing or nobody who can stop them at continuing to oppress those at the bottom to fuel their oligarchy, that a time like the French Revolution could happen again (which hardly anyone benefits from) if they don't stop their efforts to get rich and powerful and screw everyone else like the rich and powerful did then.
Hopefully images of guillotines can serve as a warning to both them AND us, that we need to find another solution soon before it devolves to one where we all replicate what happened then again when the situation gets out of control. Where they are headed with the way they want society organized will NOT be sustainable, and unless they change their ways, they are the most likely the ones that will be the first victims of these chopping blocks.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)
hack89
(39,171 posts)tax evasion in Greece extends well beyond the very rich.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)How she responds in the coming days won't just determine the fate of the eurozone, but will reflect on her as well, both at home and abroad, and it is hard to imagine a scenario where she emerges unscathed.
Given how much Germany has shaped the management of the crisis--a mixture of emergency loans and unpopular economic overhauls in the affected countries--the strong "no" vote emerging in Greece, according to a partial count of ballots Sunday, was a stinging blow.
A day earlier, the leading German newsmagazine Der Spiegel ran a cover story that lay the responsibility for the future of Greece and of the eurozone firmly at her feet. The magazine accused her of provoking the crisis through an approach it called "pedagogical imperialism."
Throughout the crisis, Ms. Merkel has repeated a mantra that "if the euro fails, Europe fails." In parliament last week, she said she would reopen talks with the Greek government after the referendum.
--
In case of a Greek exit, German voters are sure to put the blame largely on Greek Premier Alexis Tsipras, as recent polls indicate they have done so far.
Given all that, principles and an instinct for self-preservation may persuade Ms. Merkel to opt for the second option and stick with her tough line, an outcome many analysts see as more likely.
In a research note published on Sunday, Deutsche Bank said the most probable result of a "no" vote would be the end of Greece's euro membership, followed by the toppling of the Syriza government as economic hardship mounts.
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/emerging-no-vote-in-greece-poses-merkels-biggest-challenge-20150705-00005
jwirr
(39,215 posts)Duval
(4,280 posts)
jwirr
(39,215 posts)
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)Deutsche Bank said as much with "the toppling of the Syriza government" comment would indicate.
Rather, I look for a backlash against Merkel herself. She has steered this course so she is the primary person responsible. The Monday market bloodbath will be on her hands. Merkel's policy was straight out of the Smoot-Hawley playbook. We can only hope she does an about face but I am not counting on that to happen. Obama to the rescue.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)First of all, he doesn't care...he's too busy with his own little vengeances.
Second, he doesn't dare. He's got too much on the line already, shepherding TPP, TiSA and other treasonous legislation throw Congress.
Third, he can't afford it. The US is still under Sequester due to his lack of real leadership, and hasn't the funds or the will to raise them for the EU, the ECB, or even NATO. Besides, they are shaking down the banksters for Ukraine.
Not gonna happen.
pa28
(6,145 posts)I reminded me of Nixon making the Chilean economy scream in order to get his way. The Greeks would not be pushed around and did not give in to fear.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)It's only money.
JoeLaValle
(12 posts)Honestly what did they have to loose? More Austerity that has not worked or helped in any way, so if they told the EU no thanks, what did the greeks loose not much.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Chan790
(20,176 posts)So it's not really "something they lost" and in the process they kept their autonomy.
Hopefully, this topples Merkel though. She needs to go and German hegemony in the Eurozone needs to go with her.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)It would be the most liberating and democratizing movement in history.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)now Greece... that is the fear.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Should have been done all over the world.
hack89
(39,171 posts)theirs was a failure of the private banking system. They were not bankrupt like Greece.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)it certainly does not address the significant differences between Greece and Iceland.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)you read the papers. Unlike our press, they have gone in detail on both situations. You see what happened in one place, you see what just happened in Greece. You tell me they are not getting ideas? If you are a banker you are indeed concerned about contagion. It matters little if the two situations are apples and rocks.
I am sure we will see stories on this quite soon, just not on CNN. CNN-I has possibilities though.
I am starting to hate autocorrect.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Iceland did not have a sovereign debt issue. In fact its debt has risen considerably since.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)whatthehey
(3,660 posts)I swear this place lumps everything with the word "bank" in it into one simplistic financially naive bucket.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)you think their populations are not watching this with care? Chiefly getting ideas?
snooper2
(30,151 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)jwirr
(39,215 posts)
Deny and Shred
(1,061 posts)and shove the debt onto taxpayers, i.e., future generations. Its the New American Century.
I am compelled to paraphrase The Wire, Frank Sobatka: We used to make stuff in this country, now it's just one guy with his hand in the next guy's pocket.
fasttense
(17,301 posts)Really believe that more austerity was the answer for Greece.
They tout the proven failure of free trade as an economic solution.
Good to see that NGOs and propaganda didn't con Greece into voting against their own interest like it does in the US.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)voting against our own best interests by allowing wedge issues to divide us.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)already has anemia. The cure is complete when all the blood (or money) is removed from the body and the patient is dead. The real cure is to remove the leeches.
Austerity shrinks an economy, putting a nation at ever greater risk and into an ever deeper depression.
The Greeks do need to start jailing their wealthy tax evaders, and confiscating their fortunes if necessary.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)You can't get blood from a stone, or whatever the saying is.
Duval
(4,280 posts)not cave in to fear mongering no matter what form? Hurrah for Greece! And I admire Krugman. Thanks for the post, GliderGuider.
thank you
mountain grammy
(26,598 posts)This is wonderful news.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)mountain grammy
(26,598 posts)Had quite an experience with it in Athens, some 35 years ago.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)I'll bet that is what did it.
starroute
(12,977 posts)If Greece has been a corrupt oligarchy, it's because the British and Americans wanted it that way.
https://www.popularresistance.org/the-long-term-western-imperialism-behind-the-greek-crisis/
Challenged to protect their self-respect and their country, Greeks put aside their hatred of the Metaxis dictatorship and rallied to fight the foreign invaders. The Greeks did such a good job of defending their country that Adolf Hitler had to put off his invasion of Russia to rescue the Italians. That move probably saved Josef Stalin since the delay forced the Wehrmacht to fight in Russia’s mud, snow and ice for which they had not prepared. But, ironically, it also saved the Metaxis dictatorship and the monarchy. The king and all the senior Greek officials fled to British-occupied Egypt and, as new allies, they were declared part of the “Free World.” Meanwhile, in Greece, the Germans looted much of the industry, shipping and food stuffs. The Greeks began to starve. As Mussolini remarked, “the Germans have taken from the Greeks even their shoelaces…”
Then, the Greeks began to fight back. In October 1942, they set up a resistance movement that within two years became the largest in Europe. When France could claim less than 20,000 partisans, the Greek resistance movement had enrolled about 2 million and was holding down at least two divisions of German soldiers. And they did it without outside help.
As the war’s outcome became apparent, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill was determined to return Greece to the prewar rule of the monarchy and the old regime. He was motivated by fear of Communist influence within the resistance movement.
Churchill tried to get the Anglo-American army that was getting ready to invade Italy to attack Greece instead. Indeed, he tried so hard to change the war plan that he almost broke up the Allied military alliance; when he failed, he threw all the soldiers he still controlled into Greece and precipitated a civil war that tore the country apart. The Underground leaders were outsmarted and their movement was smashed. The bureaucracy, police and programs of the prewar dictatorship resumed control.
McKim
(2,412 posts)Time to head for Greece with our tourist dollars, contribute to their charities and tip big. Time to show you care, if you have the means.
They are gonna need some support in the struggle for Democracy.
If you have the inclination and means to do so, this next year would be a good time to travel in Greece.
malaise
(268,701 posts)Democracy wins!!
jobendorfer
(508 posts)Essentially the choice in front of the Greeks was: three to four decades of 30% unemployment,
or immense short-term pain but the hope of substantive recovery in the 4-5 year time frame.
It's also important to remember that, at the start of last month, the Syriza government wasn't
looking to roll back the austerity measures. All they asked was to not INCREASE the severity
of the austerity, so that they could route some of their GDP into desperately needed economic
stimulus. But even this small token was too much for the Troika.
And as Krugman points out, this was a big win for democracy in Europe.
Frankly, I think the Greeks are dealing with this quite calmly, when you consider the level
of damage that has been inflicted on them since 2010. In the last five years, that nation
has been abused beyond the endurance of a block. The economic situation was dire when
I was last in Greece (2011), I can't imagine what it's like right now.
J.
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)I'd use the term "Blitzkrieg" but it might be considered inflammatory. 
radhika
(1,008 posts)I'm not sure how we'd have voted, if our Constitution provided such a way. We had been terrorized by Hank Paulson, and threatened with the collapse of all-that-is if we didn't cough up - and we had to act so FAST!
With a pause for a meaningful referendum, the bankers would have been held accountable and have had to abide by the decision of the people. They couldn't just rely on the politicians they own to give them cover.
I recall doing the good citizen thing in those day. My friends and I were dutifully calling all Reps and Sens. Their staff was flooded by calls, and I was informally told that roughly 90% opposed the original terms.
But we bailed them out with taxpayer $$. We foreclosed on thousands of families, the bankers later bought up and profited on the empty houses. They got their bonuses, too. No bankers or rating companies have gone to jail for the crimes and manipulations that led to this all. The banks are bigger than ever.
So proud of Greece. Whatever follows, they showed courage and integrity.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)The Greeks are about to find out they had no good choice. Things are about to suck. But with hope that maybe they wont suck forever, if they've learned their lesson.
florida08
(4,106 posts)if the countries who spout democracy actually helped Greece to get back on it's feet? Instead they want to squeeze the life out of them. I admire the Greeks tenacity. The IMF is a vampire. No one is holding Goldman Sucks accountable for what they did but they should be the ones force to give back the money they took from them.
florida08
(4,106 posts)
d_legendary1
(2,586 posts)Goldman Sachs helped rig the deal for Greece to join the Eurozone while at the same time shorting Greece since they knew it would fail. It isn't just domestic banksters the Eurozone has to worry about. Wall Street (a foreign market) is bleeding them dry.
http://wallstreetonparade.com/2015/06/goldman-sachs-doesnt-have-clean-hands-in-greece-crisis/
lark
(23,061 posts)I love Krugman, he tells it like it is and doesn't just parrot convenient lies and conventional (un)truths like so many beltway pundits.
