Greece says: All Debt To The Troika "Illegal, Illegitimate, And Odious"

[dixiegrrrrl]

Zoi Konstantopoulou, speaker of the Greek parliament and a SYRIZA member, said she had established a new "Truth Committee on Public Debt" whose purposes was to "investigate how much of the debt is “illegal” with a view to writing it off."

Moments ago, this committee released its preliminary findings, and here is the conclusion from the full report presented below:

All the evidence we present in this report shows that Greece not only does not have the ability to pay this debt, but also should not pay this debt first and foremost because the debt emerging from the Troika’s arrangements is a direct infringement on the fundamental human rights of the residents of Greece. Hence, we came to the conclusion that Greece should not pay this debt because it is illegal, illegitimate, and odious.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-17/greek-debt-committee-just-declared-all-debt-illegal-illegitimate-and-odious

[Nuclear Unicorn]

1. I'm curious to know how they intend to support themselves now that they are broadcasting

their intent to not repay loans. Greece still has no viable economy of its own. Do they seriously think other nations are going to take money and labor from their own citizens just to support Greece?

[randome]

14. They haven't a clue, do they? Sink their nation in debt and then whine about it.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[BeanMusical]

29. You seem to be pleased about this.

I hope that I'm wrong.

[randome]

59. You are wrong.

It's simply an oncoming train wreck that seemed so obvious to me and others. No one bankrupted Greece but Greece. Pretending that none of their debt is 'legitimate' is the same as stealing.

The longer they try to avoid biting the bullet, the worse it will be for the very people they say they are standing up for. Negotiate the terms all they can but they need to get something done NOW.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

64. You haven't been paying attention, have you? The Train Wreck was caused by the Global Crooks who

crashed the world's economies and got away with it, due to the complicity of crooks in the governments of these nations. Iceland was the ONLY country to arrest and prosecute THEIR crooked bankers and politicians, amid the same 'warning's OMG they will not survive this'. Well, they have. Greece otoh was pushed into debt to the IMF and World bank when they SHOULD have followed Iceland's example.

Great to see this, same thing is now about to happen in other nations victimized by the same greedy criminals.

Funny, isn't it, that every country whose government sold out its nation to the IMF/World Bank has ended up in the same situation. It's way past time for a Global Revolt against the 'Men Who Crashed The World'.

I believe Greece is going to be followed by other nations also victims of these criminals.

The best thing, to avoid revolutions which ARE brewing in all these nations now, is to forgive all debt, and disband the IMF which has caused nothing but disaster for the nations it has enslaved in terrible debt.

[randome]

66. See my Post #61 below. Yes, Wall Street had a hand in Greece's downfall. So did Greece.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[Xolodno]

68. Well...not every nation...

Funny, isn't it, that every country whose government sold out its nation to the IMF/World Bank has ended up in the same situation.

Russia was sold out to the IMF by Yeltsin and would have been a permanent weak nation. Putin managed to reverse course on that and give the IMF the finger (even joined the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank recently to really stick it). Its one of the reasons why he is so popular there. Of course, everyone in the west can hate him for his stance on Ukraine, Gay Rights, etc. But to a lot of Russian people, they see him as someone who brought them from the brink.

[BeanMusical]

91. "etc."

Putin is a megalomaniac who have tons of blood on his hands. I wonder why you are praising him so much.

[Xolodno]

108. I point out reality...

...and people think I'm praising him. Geez.

He is well liked in his own nation, get over it. Just like Republicans praise Bush, Reagan, etc. Other megalomaniac's in our own history.

[sabrina 1]

105. Chavez paid off Ven's debt and the West never forgave him either.

This country cannot talk about anyone else when it comes to Civil Rights, we ought to clean up our own back yard, see the latest example of the incredible racism in this country today, another awful tragedy that will most likely get attention for a week or two, then we'll be back to talking about 'terror', somewhere else.

Good for any nation that gives the finger to the IMF and World Bank. Wolfowitz went there after his stint with our war criminals.

I hope every country in Europe rises up and does what Greece is doing. The Oligarchs do not deserve to be paid back. Greece is correct.

[BeanMusical]

92. Why do I always agree with you?

[sabrina 1]

106. Lol! I don't know, but I'm glad you do, which means I must always agree with you!

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

87. How many average Grecians

were involved in any of the decisions that led to this situation? This is big business and big banks and whatever. The average person is somehow held responsible..................

[randome]

93. Does it matter? If the government screwed them over, no one pays?

That doesn't sound like a sound monetary policy. If we solely blame the previous government, how do we make the previous government pay? You can't because the money is gone. So the next time a government wants to get free loans, it just does so because it knows there will be no consequences.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[mother earth]

42. Iceland managed well & thrived. They threw the banksters out for starters. nt

[Telcontar]

51. A population of 333k? Bad comparison

Greece has 10.8 million.

Iceland's economy is 22% industrial, vs Greece's 15%. Tourism is not a major contributor to the Icelandic economy, in Greece it's the second most important.

[mother earth]

55. No matter. Greece is in good hands with Syriza. While they have tried to remain in the EU, and

negotiate to have some debt reduced, without success, the Troika is forcing this situation. There are several issues playing out, the Troika falsely believed that Syriza would bend the knee to its debt and betray the people. They underestimate the integrity of Syriza and the fact that the people support Syriza. There will now be consequences for the Troika's ignorance and failure to actually negotiate. They played hardball, and I suspect they do not even grasp the totality of their choice in forcing Greece to exit. No matter, Greece will survive and be better for it.

There are actual plans that have been worked out in the event of such a Grexit, even though Greece negotiated with the best intent. If anyone were to listen to their FPM, Varoufakis, they would understand his vision of a united Eurozone. If you wish to actually know how they will deal with their exit, there is plenty of info available. When a country is between a rock and hard place, and has suffered tremendously for years, they will survive and be better for it. They may be a lesson for us all, I suspect it will be a great lesson of monumental proportions, and this has been forced by greed and stubbornness, it is pure folly for the Troika who puts the entire EU at risk.

The Eurozone imho, is making a grave mistake and there will be vast effects, least of which may be a domino effect. Not to mention, this domino effect may have repercussions beyond the Eurozone...predatory capitalism must end. It has been a deliberate change in capitalism forced upon the masses. The masses are saying enough.

[hack89]

97. Their sovereign debt was 28% of GDP. Greece's debt is 175% of GDP

Iceland's economy was much healthier and they had a much bigger financial cushion. Even then they suffered a 4 year recession and many Icelanders lost their life savings.

[mother earth]

98. Like I said, they are being forced into this & this is going to have repercussions, for all the

Eurozone. As I said before, they are in the best of hands with Syriza. It is the EU who should be realizing what an asinine move they are making by forcing a Grexit. Greece will not betray its people, fuck austerity, it makes the situation worst & again, as I said before, the suicide rate is extremely high in Greece because of austerity, yet the bastards insist of more and even stricter conditions. WTF?

Germany should recall how mercy was shown to their country, after Hitler's reign, and they should end their beggar thy neighbor policy, but they won't. So while they put the screws to Greece, they are cutting off their nose to spite their face. We'll feel this here, it will not be isolated. This is insanity by the Troika, because they want to force Greece to sell off their country? Fuck that.

[hack89]

99. The Greeks are fucked regardless of what they do

regardless of what path they take, austerity will be a painful part of it - that is what happens when you can no longer spend more than you make.

[mother earth]

100. No, the spending was to keep up with the debt brought about by oligarch interests buying corruption

in the political arena & the banksters. You fail to understand what this has been about & what it continues to be. They want to sell off Greece to big money...that's what all disaster capitalism is about. Like in Haiti, the benfactors were those who took advantage of corruption or ignorance and capitalized on it. Just like everywhere...the drive toward privatization is profit driven regardless of its impact on humanity, environment or anything...money trumps life.

Austerity brings more of the same pain to the working class. It is classic example of class warfare, and the oligarchs are winning while people like some who think they understand politics remain in the dark. Who benefits in the pillaging? They are guilty of debt enslavement and they don't care one bit.

Greece will triumph in the end, the Troika is going to find that out eventually, and the Eurozone is setting itself up for collapse, and putting the West at risk as well. A house of cards is what predatory capitalism is...the ransacking of nations is deliberate, and the oligarchs are dancing on graves for their gains. There is always a reckoning.

[hack89]

101. Time will tell. nt

[sabrina 1]

63. Maybe they can start prosecuting the Global thieves who stole their assets, hid them in

offshore accounts, and start collecting what was stolen. As Iceland did.

Good for Greece for being the FIRST to call out the greed and thievery that has destroyed, not just Greece but every nation that has been a victim of these neo-liberal policies.

And they will not be the last. Other nations already showing signs of doing exactly what Greece is doing include Portugal, Spain, Ireland among others.

It's a disgrace that the crooked bankers who were responsible for the collapse of Word Economies have not yet been held accountable for their crimes.

Hopefully every country who was a victim of the economic terror that crashed the world will begin the prosecutions and force the return of the assets stolen from them.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

67. If you like international bodies to govern economic matters you'll just love the TPP.

[sabrina 1]

74. I like sovereign nations handling their own economic affairs. Unfortunately in this New World Order

run by Global Corporations, like Goldman Sachs, who btw, overturned a Greek election and installed one of their own former CEOs to run that country, sinking it further into debt, naturally, this Global conglomeration of Banks and mega Corporations have been marching across the globe, buying governments, imposing THEIR rules, writing the laws, see the TPP eg, and acting like an invading army seeking Global Dominance of every country in the world.

I am happy to see the pushback now, and the PEOPLE becoming Global themselves to fight off these Economic Terrorists.

[geek tragedy]

2. if they're willing to swear off borrowing money from outside sources,

more power to them

[PoliticAverse]

3. So they won't be borrowing any more from them then? n/t

[whatthehey]

4. Did you spend the money?

Then it's probably a real loan.

[Man from Pickens]

5. ah but WHO spent the money?

If the money was borrowed through a corrupted process filled with fraud and misrepresentation, then spent by a privileged elite on themselves and their friends, why should the average Greek be on the hook for it?

[PowerToThePeople]

6. That sounds an awful lot like the US national debt. n/t

If the money was borrowed through a corrupted process filled with fraud and misrepresentation, then spent by a privileged elite on themselves and their friends, why should the average American be on the hook for it?

[dixiegrrrrl]

11. Bingo!!!!!!!!! n/t

[truebluegreen]

30. Exactly.

In the time honored tradition of the World Bank and the IMF, bankers lent money to the elite, who lined their pockets and wasted the rest. When the bill came due ordinary citizens were left on the hook paying for benefits they never received. "Austerity!" and belt-tightening is required--eating their peas, if you will--while the people who shouldn't have made the loans and the people who shouldn't have taken them increase their grip on power.

It's the Shock Doctrine, and Economic Hitmen, and neoliberalism, and anti-democratic, modern-day colonialism. Oh, and it works here too.




http://www.globalexchange.org/resources/wbimf/oppose

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/22584-neoliberalism-as-social-necrophilia-the-case-of-greece

[nationalize the fed]

32. +17 Trillion

No one I know borrowed money to drone bomb the middle east or invade Iraq -the Iraq that had nothing to do with 911

TPTB better get a handle on this or it might spread like a nasty infection

[mother earth]

7. Bravo, and it is about time. Predatory capitalism at its best, the borrowing was to keep paying on

interest, not debt, loans were made when they knew Greece was in trouble, they were made knowingly to incur more debt so as to make a slave of Greece on the backs of their working class. Greece was made the scapegoat for unbridled greed, unbridled corruption, the people of Greece NEVER had a choice in this enslavement, it was out of their hands. The elites escape accountability & the banksters triumph, yet again on the working class. This is the same poison sweeping the globe. Too big to fails and too big to jails...it is all too familiar.

Those who made this happen are first and foremost the Troika who knowingly approved loans for Greece all the time KNOWING corruption was rampant and the elite were guilty of tax evasion, while records were falsified to qualify for further debt enslavement, the Troika knew all too well what was playing out, yet they approved the loans. This pillaging has gone global.

The Troika KNEW, but now, after odious debt is further incurred, now they cry foul...oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!

I stand in solidarity with the people of Greece who say this must end. Thankfully Syriza is on the side of its people. I wish we had a Syriza here in the USA, where again that same poison is on the backs of the working class.

I salute Tsipras & all of Syriza. Solidarity!

[polly7]

10. Great post! nt.

[grntuscarora]

12. +1.

nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

16. Syriza is nothing but a collection of loud-mouthed crooks.

Greece didn't borrow from banksters they borrowed from the workers and businesses that deposited into the banks that loaned them the money. Syriza isn't striking a blow for workers they're robbing workers in other countries.

Greece is very quickly moving towards becoming a failed state and, no, they will not be allowed to pimp Greek territory to the Russians to save themselves.

[KamaAina]

22. Because workers' savings make up such a huge percentage of bank deposits.

Maybe a little higher in Germany than here, but still...

[Nuclear Unicorn]

23. What do you think the depositors of those banks will do if they believe their banks

will suddenly be left holding hundreds of billions of bad notes?

The dumbest thing that could happen would be for the home governments to underwrite the debt. All that would do is make the citizens pay principle and interest to prop up deposits the citizens have already lost.

And don't think the billionaires and multi-nationals are going to suffer. Their money isn't sitting in a bank at 1.5% it's invested in things making 5% that the working class can't number crunch their way into.

[mother earth]

40. You simply have not been following what's been taking place, nor do you have an understanding of

disaster capitalism. These exploits do not happen by accident, they are done deliberately, it is one big rigged game, just like here. Do you understand what is happening globally with the banks and the rigged system? Wall St. thrives while Main St. dives. You simply have not been paying attention if you can defend this.

Greece is a classic example of predatory capitalism. Oh yes, it was enabled by corrupt politicians & banksters, they want to privatize and sell off Greece. They want to squeeze blood from a stone, after they have deliberately already established this disaster onto this "sovereign" nation. So this sovereign nation, now with a gov't that is carrying out the mandate of its people, are saying enough of this shit. Got that? This is after trying every damned negotiation tactic they could to STAY in the Eurozone & pay their debts. Germany has decided they don't need Greece, they could've kept them in by reducing the debt, instead they will wreak havoc through their own Eurozone countries with their greed and stubborn denial of reality. Debt that cannot be paid, will not, tis better to negotatiate and forgive some of that debt, keep Greece in the EU and call it a day. Instead they insist of a full boat of debt to their own detriment. It's crazy, the Troika thinks this is ok for the other countries, NOT Greece, Greece wanted to make good on most of their debt, they want some of it forgiven.

Now, catch up on the situation. The Troika wanted to pimp Greece, the drive to privatize everything to pay off debt is classic disaster capitalism. Get thee to a Naomi Klein book or video and then tell me that Syriza is a bunch of loud-mouthed crooks. You know nothing about this situation if you think that. NOTHING.

Stay tuned, because if they force a Grexit, things are going to get rocky for the EU & elsewhere. Perhaps Germany and the Troika will actually think while there is time to reverse this situation. Syriza has a vision of a united Eurozone, they never wanted to leave it. They have a vision of one with shared prosperity. You need to research how Germany, the number one economy of the EU has driven down wages for its own people to beggar the other countries in their own EU in trade. This is predatory capitalism, this is poison, my friend. Greed and poison, with no regard to the dire circumstances of the people in Greece who had phenomenal suicide rates driven by austerity.

If you can't see the nature of what is taking place it may be because you choose to turn a blind eye.

Enough is enough. That cry may start spreading. Germany would do well to remember the compassion and forgiveness they were shown after WWII.

[MFrohike]

102. Tiny problem with your analysis

The ultimate destination of the bailout money? I do believe 91% of it went to French and German banks. It was laundered through Greece so that Sarkozy and Merkel didn't have to explain to their own peoples the necessity of bailing out institutions which made reckless loans during the housing bubble. Greece wasn't exactly given a choice in the matter, either.

Syriza aren't crooks in the slightest. Are they more or less incompetent at negotiating and governing? Yep. The claim that they're robbing anyone is a hoot. You might as well throw that charge at Merkel, where it would far more accurate, as her country's policy is to extract all possible wealth from its EU trading partners without ever recycling the surpluses gained in the country of origin. There's a name for that sort of policy: mercantilism.

[polly7]

109. +1000. nt.

[passiveporcupine]

20. I stand in solidarity with the people of Greece who say this must end.

Me too! Wish I could Rec this post.

[truebluegreen]

34. +a zillion Thank you. nt

[Jack Rabbit]

8. Right on, brother

US College grads should make a similar declaration. And US homeowners.

Down with the oligarchs.
[center]

[/center][font size="1"]From Wikipedia Commons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eugène_Delacroix_-_La_liberté_guidant_le_peuple.jpg)
(Public Domain)
[/font]

[Nuclear Unicorn]

17. "US College grads should make a similar declaration. And US homeowners."

And then what happens to people after that who want school or home loans?

If you can just welch on a debt other people will stop loaning money. If people stop loaning money then the economy becomes cash-only. While it could happen -- eventually -- their will be a deflationary spiral that will impact the working class long before it hurts those who actually have cash-in-hand, i.e. the rich.

[mother earth]

41. Haven't been following Elizabeth Warren much? nt

[Jack Rabbit]

48. The lending institutions should be reorganized

Since the problem is with the unwise deregulation of the banking industry, which the crooks in the banking industry wanted, the solution will come as a result of overall reform of the banking industry to remedy the abuses made possible by deregulation. Banks took advantage of deregulation by making loans to unqualified borrowers, but, under deregulation, these banks could turn around and sell the loans without have to suffer any consequence for lax lending practices. Since the banks could make loans without having to consider the borrower's ability to pay it back, they did. By sell the loans to investors, the loans originators defrauded them.

The loan originators who made bad loans and sold them as soon as the money was out the door will be made to pay the buyers of the loans for lost income due to the inability of borrowers to repay. Don't feel sorry for the loan originators. They knew they were making bad loans, but didn't care because they didn't have to hold them long enough to suffer any losses from having made them.

The largest banks that took advantage of deregulation to cheat borrowers taking money they couldn't repay and investors buying those loans will be broken up and their assets used to create public banks or other new private banks in the hands people with more integrity than Legs Dimon, Pretty Boy Lloyd or their fellow banksters. In this way, the criminals [i i.e., Legs, Pretty Boy, their ilk and their associates) will not have cash-in-hand to hand with which to make more mischief. While we're at it, it would be a good idea to bar them working in the banking and finance industry ever again. Prison sentences would be nice, but as long as they can do no more harm, it might not be necessary.

As for the borrowers of these loans, their debt is odious and they should not have to repay anything beyond which they have already paid. They should be given title to any tangible assets purchased with the borrowed money and, if they cannot maintain them, they can sell them. These people were simply chumps used by criminal banksters to defraud investors. The only thing they did wrong was give false information when applying for the loans, often with false assurances from the lender that it was OK to do that and even at the urging of the bank.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

52. None of that changes the fact that if there is a massive default then there will be no future loans

No one is going to loan money to watch the borrower keep it without repayment. No depositor would keep their money in a bank that loaned money with no expectation of repayment. Banks don't have money, they have other people's money.

It makes for cutesy populism but it does nothing except allow the borrower to screw over depositors and future borrowers.

There is more than just the banks that need reforming. The trillion dollars of student loan debt is a symptom of a college system gorging itself on a currency glut which inevitably leads to currency inflation spirals. Colleges will have to lower their tuition fees.

[Jack Rabbit]

90. I believe that I am at fault for miscommunicating

There is more than just the banks that need reforming.

Agreed. American society has been corrupted from the top down. We are no longer a democracy, but an oligarchy, at least according to a study by Princeton University. I do not believe an election is going to fix this problem in the age of Citizens United. It's up to us and we, who put the demos in democracy, will have to plan an execute a mass campaign disobedience to fix the problem.

How's that for cutesy populism?

No depositor would keep their money in a bank that loaned money with no expectation of repayment. Banks don't have money, they have other people's money.

Then why keep any deposits in a bank? The law allows banks to take depositors' savings and gamble on derivatives. If the bank loses, the depositors don't get their money because the bank "needs" it. It sounds to me like we're being cheated out of our money by the banks whether or not we pay back odious debt.

And no, I don't favor withholding debt payments except under extraordinary circumstances like this one, where the aristocrats at the peak of society are thieves and law protects them and insulates their power from popular threats from a normal political process, viz., a free and fair election. Otherwise, we end up with precisely the problem you describe.

There can be no free and fair elections under the Citizens United regime. Short of mass civil disobedience, where we refuse to repay odious debt, refuse to pay taxes or fines on homeowners who put up solar panels, refuse to pay taxes to fund imperialist resource war and refuse to enter military service in order to prosecute those wars, I don't see any way we're going to restore democracy.

If you have a better idea of addressing the problem, I'm willing to hear it.

By the way, a couple of hours ago the House of Representatives voted to give the President, the current one and the next one, authority to negotiate bad trade deals featuring investor/state dispute systems with the power to virtually nullify legislative acts of the elected representatives of sovereign states over the presumed "right" of a private corporation to realize expected profits.

[sabrina 1]

107. Why is it necessary for everyone to be borrowing money? Who set up this system in the first

place? We borrow money, why?

Who does China borrow from?

Airc, Ven paid off its debt and Western oligarchs never forgave him for it. Why? Who benefits from all this borrowing?

Even here, if you don't borrow, you have no credit. Or if you pay off loans, they don't like that.

[arikara]

83. Well for one thing, education should be free for everyone

instead of tying students to astronomical student loans, many for the rest of their lives like now.
And if the assholes in power quit with all the weapon buying and warring, free education would be easy.

I say good for Greece. Things will be better for them once they toss out the bankster leeches who are sucking them dry.

[FrodosPet]

103. About the "free for everyone" deal

Would you support limits, such as free up to a bachelor's degree?

There would have to be safeguards to prevent someone from becoming a professional student for 20 years. As well, I think such a program would have to limit people who just never will be qualified for a particular degree from sucking up the precious funds that could go towards someone who does have, and demonstrates, the intellectual capacity.

[arikara]

104. People still have to live

If somebody wants to be a professional student, so be it. There really is no advantage to it though as they still have to work to support themselves. I don't know if places like Norway have limits but however they do it, it works.

When education is cheap or as in some enlightened places free, students can live on summertime work and part time jobs. When tuitions are too high then they are forced into usurious student loans which HAVE to be paid back, can't even be discharged with bankruptcy. With disappearing jobs and wages on a race to the bottom they never get out of debt. I don't know if its true, but heard in the US they can't even collect their social security if they still owe student loans, where's the fairness in that if they paid into it all their working life. I'm Canadian and we are heading in the same direction as you, unfortunately.

[mother earth]

43. :) Love that pic, Jack, and the attitude.

[Dont call me Shirley]

9. Greece the birthplace of democracy says a big FU to fascist global bank.

[maindawg]

13. Awesome

Tell the billionaires to go F themselves. We should all do that.

[Fred Sanders]

15. Interest on debt is banned by some countries and outlawed by some nations for a reason.

Interest charges in Islam are banned because it is considered usury:


"When one reads the Islamic texts concerning interest, one is immediately taken by how stringent the warnings are against any involvement in interest. Islam prohibits a number of immoral acts such as fornication, adultery, consuming alcohol etc., and murder. But the variety of discussion and extent of warnings for these other acts is not of the same level of those related to taking interest. This has led Sayyid Qutb to write, “No other issue has been condemned and denounced so strongly in the Quran as has usury.” [3]

The Quran, for example, contains the following verses concerning interest [4]:
“O you who have believed, do not consume interest, doubled and multiplied, but fear God that you may be successful. And fear the Fire, which has been prepared for the disbelievers.” (Quran 3:130-131)

This rather strong warning towards the believers warns of a fatal consequence: being thrown into the Hell-fire that has been prepared for the disbelievers.

God also says:
“Those who consume interest cannot stand [on the Day of Resurrection] except as one stands who is being beaten by Satan into insanity. That is because they say, ?Trade is [just] like interest.’ But God has permitted trade and has forbidden interest. So whoever has received an admonition from his Lord and desists may have what is past, and his affair rests with God. But whoever returns [to dealing in interest or usury]those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide eternally therein. God destroys interest and gives increase for charities.

https://qaazi.wordpress.com/2008/10/08/why-does-islam-forbid-interest/

[Nuclear Unicorn]

18. "Interest charges in Islam are banned because it is considered usury"

The Hebrews beat them to it by a dozen or so centuries.

[sulphurdunn]

38. Only to other Hebrews.

[trumad]

19. I've often wondered what type of bonuses and commission lenders earned...

as they helped put Greece into debt.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

24. Yeah. Some guy behind a desk leaned on an entire soverign nation.

[trumad]

25. You don't think that happens?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

26. No, I don't think an entire sovereign can be hoodwinked by a bank.

If they can be then they should be allowed to govern.

"Gee Greece, how is it you came to fall upon such hard times?"

"Well, you see what had happened was, there was this Nigerian prince that said he needed our help getting his money out of country and..."

[truebluegreen]

36. Do you know anything about this situation?

It was a bunch of corrupt assholes making loans to other corrupt assholes who enriched themselves and left the citizens holding the bag when the bill came due. There are some excellent educational posts in this thread, maybe you should have a look at them.

[Dick Dastardly]

89. No one put a gun to gun to Greece's head, they voluntarily took out loans.

Whether the Greek government/politicians who took out the loans were corrupt or not it makes no difference as to Greece's responsibility to repay the loans as they were the countries representitives and especially to boot since Greece is a liberal democracy.
Why is it ok for Greece and its citizens to avoid responsibility and consequences of its poor economic decisions mismanagement or corruption and leave other countries citizens holding the bag?
Why should other countries and their citizens be responsible and left holding the bag for Greece's poor economic decisions, mismanagement or corruption?

I'm not saying that Greece should not get some help and relief from its debt, but they are responsible. Its not ok for, them to shirk responsibility, expect no consequences and leave others holding the bag.

[dixiegrrrrl]

53. Did you somehow miss our bailout of the banks and corporations????? n/t

[Nuclear Unicorn]

54. No, I didn't forget. In fact, it's why I write what I write.

The banks took our money in the form of deposits and made loans that weren't repaid. The government then took our money which comes to them in the form of our taxes to prop-up our deposits.

Except the government didn't have cash in hand so they used debt instruments to secure the payments which charge principle and interest. That money will have to be repaid.

How?

With our taxes.

We're being shafted before, during and in the future.

[cstanleytech]

21. Debt is debt though and if they borrowed money shouldnt they pay it back????

Now lowering if not outright removing any interest on the debt I could understand because that just makes it harder but the money itself should be returned otherwise it leaves someone else holding the bag.

[truebluegreen]

39. The question is, who is the "they?"

"They" are the elites who took loans for grins and giggles and their own personal enrichment, and then insisted their pet politicians take more loans to pay the interest on the first (bad) loans, and then left the Greek citizens to pick up the tab, or, "holding the bag".

It is an old, familiar story, and one that we should recognize by now.

[cstanleytech]

47. Except the elites wont get burn it will the rest of who will take the fall for it like we did for

the banking scandals and the real estate bubble bursting.

[truebluegreen]

49. Yup. And that is exactly what they are doing to Greece,

with the added unfortunate element that Greece doesn't control, and therefore cannot devalue, its own currency.

[cstanleytech]

50. I thought that the main problem was the interest payments they were having to make

that were making it difficult to pay it off?

[truebluegreen]

69. It is the main problem now, but the basis of the problem was the original loans

made to a corrupt government, which used the money to line their own pockets and enrich their friends. When the inevitable happened, more loans were required to pay the interest (i.e. protect the banks) for the first loans and so on. In the process the lending banks required "Austerity!" and really tanked the Greek economy.

"...Chapter 1, Debt before the Troika, analyses the growth of the Greek public debt since the 1980s. It concludes that the increase in debt was not due to excessive public spending, which in fact remained lower than the public spending of other Eurozone countries, but rather due to the payment of extremely high rates of interest to creditors, excessive and unjustified military spending, loss of tax revenues due to illicit capital outflows, state recapitalization of private banks, and the international imbalances created via the flaws in the design of the Monetary Union itself.

<snip>
It has also come to the understanding of the Committee that the unsustainability of the Greek public debt was evident from the outset to the international creditors, the Greek authorities, and the corporate media. Yet, the Greek authorities, together with some other governments in the EU, conspired against the restructuring of public debt in 2010 in order to protect financial institutions. The corporate media hid the truth from the public by depicting a situation in which the bailout was argued to benefit Greece, whilst spinning a narrative intended to portray the population as deservers of their own wrongdoings.
(my bold)

http://greekdebttruthcommission.org/wp/

The part about not controlling their own currency makes the whole thing impossible for Greece: as members of the Eurozone, their currency is the Euro and they cannot devalue it....unlike the US--which cannot go bankrupt. Our debt is owed in our own currency and if it becomes unmanageable we can unilaterally devalue it and pay our creditors in devalued dollars (the rich would totally freak of course). Greece can't do that...and absolutely cannot repay this debt without doing it. These past 5 years have amply demonstrated that. Nevertheless, the banks that made bad loans in the first place, and then more bad loans to back up the first ones, are now requiring that they be repaid in full, instead of themselves suffering for their bad judgment. It's the usual, privatize the profit, socialize the loss.

It all sounds depressingly familiar, doesn't it?

[cstanleytech]

77. I would want to see a breakdown of the numbers for that list because other than the interest rate

the majority of it sounds like problems created by the Greek government.

[truebluegreen]

78. That is the point: a corrupt government

doing the bidding and pandering to its elites while the people, who had no control over the funds and the borrowing, get to pick up the tab. Follow the link if you'd like more info--it goes to an in-depth analysis. And there are other sources.

[cstanleytech]

80. So because allegations that the government was corrupt the people who loaned the money should

get shafted totally?

[truebluegreen]

81. They should have no responsibility for making loans they knew couldn't be paid back,

and then making more loans to pay back the first ones? So you are a supporter of the big banks on Wall Street? Because that's what it sounds like.

Have a nice day; I'm busy.

[cstanleytech]

85. Chill, I am not "for" anyone I just dont think its ok to expect people who made loan on good terms

or atleast honest terms to get screwed over.
That doesnt I dont sympathize with the Greek because I do and would actually totally support modifying the loan agreements and doing away with the interest payments as well as stretching it out over a longer period like say 100 years or so.
That way the companies or whatever will in time their money back but it eases the burden on the Greek people to make it easier.
As for the people involved in corruption, well thats what they have courts for and if the Greek government officials were corrupt then they need to be prosecuted and have their assets seized and if the banks made any kind of fishy loan like for example fishy terms then the Greek government should take those banks to court, simple as that.

[truebluegreen]

94. "...good terms or at least honest terms..." is exactly the point.

It is not just the Greek government that was corrupt.

[cstanleytech]

95. Thus the part of my post that they need to take them to court.

After all there is a right way and a wrong way to do things, right way being that they take them to court like Iceland did, wrong way is to do what the US did and give them a piss poor tiny fine and admonish them to behave better.

[fasttense]

60. If the money is borrowed fairly, legally and based on accurate information

Perhaps pay back should be considered. But many a time countries' loans have been forgiven to allow the people relief from economic devastation and the wars it brings.

There are many lingering questions about falsified documents and corrupt bankers and politicians. Conning your country into unnecessary and excessive loans is traitorous.

There is also the banks responsibility to make safe loans. The bank after all does get interest on the loans in exchange for the risk they are taking. But with bailouts, fed cheap money policies and implicit future bailouts the bank are not taking any risks.

Bankruptcy should also be allowed but countries can't declare bankruptcy so forgiving debt is a rational policy to prevent mass poverty and conflicts.

[sulphurdunn]

27. The CIA seems to think

Greece was sputtering along but not in serious trouble until 2007 when the Greek economy collapsed because of the same banks that caused the global economy to collapse and then imposed austerity measures on Greece that made everything worse.

Maybe the blood sucking banks are the biggest part of the problem and they're scared shitless other countries are going to figure that out.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gr.html

[truebluegreen]

33. +1

[dixiegrrrrl]

70. The IMF, and Euro. Central Bank (ECB) are scared shitless that Spain, Italy, etc. will copy Greece.

In order to get the loans in the first place, the countries had to meet certain economic conditions, which Goldman Sachs helped falsify.

In order to join the EU, countries had to pay certain amounts.

Greece's last payment was actually the money sitting in the EU account.
Which they now owe on top of the debts run up by past administrations.

There has to be a point where enough is enough, and Greece's recalcitrance is permeating the entire EU.

[sulphurdunn]

72. Good.

Banks should exist to serve not rule. What I think you are saying is that Goldman Sachs commuted fraud against Greece and the EU. There has to be a point where enough is enough and banks pay for their crimes.

[mythology]

28. For a country that can't survive without those bailouts

I'm not sure that claiming the debt is illegal and shouldn't be paid back is the smart play. I'm sure it goes over well with the public, but it doesn't make a lot of economic sense.

[truebluegreen]

31. Actually, the country can survive...

what can't survive is the banks that took the loans in the first place, pocketed or wasted the money, and then looked to citizens to pay their debt. Sound familiar? It should.

[mythology]

58. People need to stop believing that everything bad is some conspiracy

The Greek economy wouldn't survive if they couldn't get any more money. And nobody is going to loan them money if the Greek government won't pay.

Greece chose this path and they are going to pay for it.

[truebluegreen]

65. Who is "Greece"?

The Greek government or the Greek people? The ones who took bad loans for their own profit, and then more loans to pay the interest on the first loans, or the Greek people who are left holding the bag? Re-payment required austerity, which required cuts in education, health, transportation subsidies, privatizing national assets, freezing wages etc etc etc. It is a very familiar story by now, or it should be.

Educate yourself: look into the way the IMF, the World Bank, in this case the European Central Bank do business. Look into how multi-nationals tilt the playing field to their advantage, and then use economic crisis to bolster their own power and influence. Read The Shock Doctrine. Read Confessions of an Economic Hitman. Look at what is happening here, for god's sake. "Austerity" doesn't help economies grow, it doesn't promote recovery from economic downturns, but it does protect the elites and it does promote even more wealth flowing to the top. It is economic colonialism and it is rampant. Some things are a conspiracy.

[sulphurdunn]

73. The Greeks can't pay.

The banks can't foreclose and liquidate the country. The banks need to come to terms with reality. As for who chose the path, that is debatable.

[randome]

75. Do you think the banks want to get nothing back from Greece?

Maybe the terms can still be negotiated but I think the organizations bailing out Greece are quite aware of the possibility of not getting anything back for their money.

It sounds like it's Greece who isn't coming to terms with reality but none of us is a fly on the wall to know who is being more intransigent. But I find it hard to believe the banks loaning the money would take the risk of losing it all.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[sulphurdunn]

96. The banks want to loot (privatize)

Greece, not save it. The current Greek government was elected to save the country from that fate. If the EU wanted to save Greece it would print the money to do so. If anyone cared about responsibility for this mess they'd have already prosecuted Goldman Sachs executives and leaders of the former Greek government for fraud.

A far greater disaster than default would be Russian or Chinese white nights riding to the rescue to gain a foothold in Western Europe without the demand that Greece destroy itself to save itself.

[randome]

110. They've already destroyed themselves if they don't accept a Western bailout.

No one will invest in that country again. No one. And being beholden to regressive regimes is a worse outcome, IMO.

If the banks want to 'loot' Greece, as you say, they have to negotiate in order to 'hook' their fish. And they know that, which is why I don't think the terms of the bailout are as onerous as Greece says.

But if they truly are unacceptable then the banks are shooting themselves in the foot and they aren't particularly known for doing that.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[sendero]

35. You realize that the "bailouts"..

... are essentially loans from the troika to pay back outstanding loans to the troika. Right? And a condition for obtaining these loans is an ever-tightening noose of "austerity" on pensioners, workers and other 99% types.

It's past time for Greece to tell them to go fuck themselves. And then Spain, Italy and Portugal can follow suit.

[Nye Bevan]

44. They certainly have the option to tell everyone they owe money to to go take a hike

and not repay a single Euro going forwards. Of course, there would be consequences, however.

[sendero]

46. I realize this is way past your pay grade..

... but the consequences for the Euro are just about as dire as those for Greece. So yes, they need to Grexit and let the EU spin like a top trying to keep Spain and Portugal and maybe Italy from joining them.

Folks who think that this is just a case of someone borrowing money and not wanting to pay it back are woefully ignorant of what is actually happening.

[truebluegreen]

82. +1

Seems to me--based on some comments here--woefully and willfully ignorant.

[sulphurdunn]

37. The banks may be worse off without Greece.

I seriously doubt Greece will be worse off without the banks. Indications are the bailouts have only made things worse than they would have been without them.

[Calista241]

62. Greece will be infinitely worse off having to switch back to the drachma.

Anything Greece imports today will be totally unavailable for the intermediate future. Is Fiat going to ship cars to Greece knowing they might not get anything back for them?

What about food? Can Greece feed itself, or do they need to import food? Is Tyson going to ship chicken to Greece knowing they may only get a fraction of their costs back, if they get anything at all?

There will be massive job losses also. Companies that employ Greek citizens are going to lay them off as their revenue becomes unpredictable.

Look at Venezuela, only orders of magnitude worse. Everyone here seems to think some rich dude is the only one who's going to suffer if the Grexit happens, and that is most assuredly not true.

[polly7]

45. Has anyone heard anything else wrt to Greece possibly joining the BRICS Development Bank?

Last edited Sat Jun 20, 2015, 06:43 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016122248#post2

Mr_Jefferson_24 (8,160 posts)
2. Hopefully this is a bit...

...of good news:

The Greek prime minister was invited to join the BRICS after a phone call conversation with Russian Finance Vice-minister Serguéi Storchak, RT reported.

Tsipras has shown interest in the proposal and will join the BRICS countries in June at the forum in St. Petersburg to discuss the possibility.

If Greece agrees to join the new Development Bank, the country would become its sixth member alongside Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa.

The BRICS Development Bank is a new initiative that will help BRICS member states lessen their dependence on the IMF.

Source: http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Greece-Invited-to-Join-New-BRICS-Development-Bank-20150512-0039.html

Also, this:

Putin meets with Tsipras, says Russian pipeline project should help Greece pay its debt

Associated Press June 19, 2015 | 8:02 p.m. EDT + More

By SANDY MACINTYRE and NATALIYA VASILYEVA, Associated Press

http://www.usnews.com/news/business/articles/2015/06/19/greece-signs-deal-with-russia-to-build-gas-pipeline?page=2

[Betty Karlson]

56. As early as 1993, the then Dutch prime-minister Ruud Lubbers warned

that the Euro was unsustainable unless the European economic integration came at two different speeds. I can only imagine that he hates to be so right, after so many years.

[fasttense]

57. Wish I could recommend this post seven ways to Sunday

First corrupt politician get with corrupt bankers to create a huge con to take on illegal loans with falsified documents leaving the Greek people to pay the loans off. They took these excessive loans knowing the rich were scamming out on their fair share of taxes, knowing the working class would get stuck paying.

Then the WTO and global bankers give them more loans to pay the interest and payments on the illegal loans, but tieing the new loans to policies guaranteed to devastate the working class. The Greek economy is destroyed and finally the people see how they have been conned.

Since the initial and subsequent loans have NOT been going to pay on Greek infrastructure and government functions. NOT paying the loans will free up money to fund the infrastructure and government functions. Tax collection from the uber rich and taking back fee generating government functions would also bring in revenue. Taking back bailout money and closing the larger more corrupt banks could also generate revenue. There is a lot sovereign countries can do to get back to solvency if they consider taxing and fining those responsible for the economic disaster.

[randome]

61. Greece is responsible for Greece.

Sure, the Wall Street bust had much to do with it but Greece had been understating its deficit for years. Add to that their notorious tax evasion and you have a recipe for disaster, which is exactly what is playing out now.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/09/business/international/explaining-the-greek-debt-crisis.html?_r=0

Greece became the epicenter of Europe’s debt crisis after Wall Street imploded in 2008. With global financial markets still reeling, Greece announced in October 2009 that it had been understating its deficit figures for years, raising alarms about the soundness of Greek finances.

Suddenly, Greece was shut out from borrowing in the financial markets. By the spring of 2010, it was veering toward bankruptcy, which threatened to set off a new financial crisis.

To avert calamity, the so-called troika — the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank and the European Commission — issued the first of two international bailouts for Greece, which would eventually total 240 billion euros, or about $264 billion at today’s exchange rates.

The bailouts came with conditions. Lenders imposed harsh austerity terms, requiring deep budget cuts and steep tax increases. They also required Greece to overhaul its economy by streamlining the government, ending tax evasion and making Greece an easier place to do business.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[dixiegrrrrl]

76. During a recent investigation of the overall problem, the Greek Parliament Committee found:

that the unsustainability of the Greek public debt was evident from the outset to the international creditors, the Greek authorities, and the corporate media. Yet, the Greek authorities, together with some other governments in the EU, conspired against the restructuring of public debt in 2010 in order to protect financial institutions. The corporate media hid the truth from the public by depicting a situation in which the bailout was argued to benefit Greece, whilst spinning a narrative intended to portray the population as deservers of their own wrongdoings.

and

Chapter 7, Legal issues surrounding the MOU and Loan Agreements, argues there has been a breach of human rights obligations on the part of Greece itself and the lenders, that is the Euro Area (Lender) Member States, the European Commission, the European Central Bank, and the International Monetary Fund, who imposed these measures on Greece.
All these actors failed to assess the human rights violations as an outcome of the policies they obliged Greece to pursue, and also directly violated the Greek constitution by effectively stripping Greece of most of its sovereign rights. The agreements contain abusive clauses, effectively coercing Greece to surrender significant aspects of its sovereignty. This is imprinted in the choice of the English law as governing law for those agreements, which facilitated the circumvention of the Greek Constitution and international human rights obligations. Conflicts with human rights and customary obligations, several indications of contracting parties acting in bad faith, which together with the unconscionable character of the agreements, render these agreements invalid.

[randome]

79. At least they blamed the "Greek authorities" for some of it.

That seems to be an acknowledgement of reality. But if Greece is, on the one hand, begging for a bailout and on the other hand saying "do it the way we say", I don't know what they hope to accomplish other than default and collapse.

Negotiations are supposed to be two-way, of course, but to think they can get away with no pain at all when their situation is so dire is beyond me.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Nye Bevan]

71. They still cashed the checks though, didn't they?

Easier to call it "illegal" and "odious" after accepting and spending the cash than to refuse it in the first place.

[truebluegreen]

86. Who is the "they" to whom you refer?

The current government, or a previous one? And which checks? The first ones, that were wasted or pocketed instead of being used for public investment? Or the subsequent checks, which were used to pay the interest on the first checks? i.e prop up the banks at the citizens' expense?

Any of this sounding familiar? Anyone? Bueller?

[yurbud]

84. Better yet, track who profited from it and claw it back

[cstanleytech]

88. Its not that easy, alot of the loans were probably legitimate with fair market terms and

making profit off those kind of loans is ok.
Now if someone made a loan and it can be proven that they suspected that Greece wouldnt be able to pay it back then ya they should prosecuted and the loan should be wiped of the books for Greece, because thats just the right thing to do.