Hillary vs Bernie re: supporter point of view

[upaloopa]

Last edited Sat May 23, 2015, 01:57 PM - Edit history (5)

Hillary supporter, I was born into this world, I need to help make opportunity available to everyone so that we all have an equal chance at success.
Bernie supporter, I was born into this world I have a right to food shelter clothing education and healthcare. Someone needs to provide it for me.
On edit:
Who provides Bernie's free education?
Who pays for it?
Who has the knowledge to share with students
Who puts in the effort to become a professor?
Speak to that
That is what I am getting at
You never talk about that part



We just say pass a law and everyone else get in line
If you can't answer me without an insult how are you going to answer the rest of the electorate when they say the same thing I did?

[cantbeserious]

1. Sounds Like A Republican Vs Liberal Perspective To These Eyes And Ears

eom

[orpupilofnature57]

5. They've morphed into them, bad memories and blurry vision .

[AgingAmerican]

42. They don't even try to hide it anymore

They now openly push Mitt Romney's, 'Takers vs Makers' meme.

[jwirr]

197. Absolutely agree. Back before raygun many of us got free educations and what happened there is

that the education benefits paid for themselves in more and higher paid jobs, entrepreneurial advances, number of people moving out of poverty and no longer using assistance programs. Companies also benefited by having more better educated employees.

But no free education is now a rallying cry to anyone who does not want to pay for taxes. Apparently it is not about making our economic system work anymore. Just about low taxes. The only candidate I see offering that is Rs.

[daleanime]

176. +1

[PowerToThePeople]

2. You sound like a repuke.

Last edited Sat May 23, 2015, 01:36 PM - Edit history (1)

Not sure that was your point, but your OP could be found on any right wing site.

upaloopa (6,826 posts)

Hillary vs Bernie re: supporter point of view [View all]
Hillary supporter, I was born into this world, I need to help make opportunity available to everyone so that we all have an equal chance at success.
Bernie supporter, I was born into this world I have a right to food shelter clothing education and healthcare. Someone needs to provide it for me.

[leftofcool]

9. Sound like someone who is willing to work hard to me.

[PowerToThePeople]

18. I work hard

Get about 100 hours of Union labour work in per pay period (two weeks), own and operate my own side business, and raise a child as a single parent. Do not talk to me about hard work, I know what it is.

[leftofcool]

24. So did I until I retired

I never said you did not work hard. I said, his post sounds like someone who works hard. Food, shelter, clothing and medical care are basic human rights and that is why I pay a ton in taxes. But, no one owes anyone a free college education. If you can get it by taxing the rich, that would be awesome. But, my piddly retirement check is not up for grabs so someone else's child can go to college free. And you and I both know that the rich will never be taxed for it so it will be the middle class people trying to raise families and us old folks who would feel the pain.

[PowerToThePeople]

26. "And you and I both know that the rich will never be taxed for it "

Well, this is one reason why I support Bernie and not HRC. Third way will not tax the rich. That is true because third way are Republicans.

[brooklynite]

36. And Bernie will not tax the rich because he won't get elected to do it...

[leftofcool]

39. He wouldn't be able to even if he got elected.

[AgingAmerican]

52. Defeatism: an attitude of accepting, expecting, or being resigned to defeat

So why even try?

[jwirr]

71. And you both may be right about that - but I have a hard time understanding the glee that so

many people will not be able to get an education. Why do you have so little concern about the youth today?

[leftofcool]

81. Where do you see glee?

No one is gleeful about it. The problem is the middle class and old folks can't afford it and these are the people who pay all the taxes.

[jwirr]

91. What I hear you saying is Bernie is somehow wrong about this need. But I also hear your

point. Bernie often speaks of the unfairness of our tax system.

For the most part Bernie is telling us what we need to do to make this country a better place for all of us. Things worth fighting for. He does not say it is going to be easy. He just says he will fight with us as he has been for 40 years.

And yes, congress will still be R for at least 2 years after the election. President Obama tried to get them to work with him by compromising but that did not work. I doubt we will be able to ever make that work as long as the teabaggers are in control.

I also will say that he and Hillary agree on a lot of this.

I tend to vote on issues and who articulated them the best. So far Hillary has not talked about what she thinks on a lot of issues so I am open.

And if she wins the primary I will vote D.

[leftofcool]

93. We are more in agreement that you think.

Teabaggers suck!

[jwirr]

97. LOL - thanks.

[eloydude]

127. So does the rich. Why are you afraid of taxing them?

Oh let me guess, you're a rich person.

No you're not. You're a retired person who probably has investments in the stock market and have vested interest in seeing their stock market continue.

With Hillary? No. Her economic policies are unsound. You stand to lose again, just like you lost in the Great Recession of Chimp.

With Bernie? Yes, your investment will be quadrupled, or even better if wisely invested.

[Hekate]

136. And you know this how? Your posts are always a real trip. nt

[AgingAmerican]

44. Wall Street Dems are desperate to silence Bernie

They want Hillary to be a foregone conclusion. The corporate media is trying to ignore him, and he keeps plodding forward.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win"

Mahatma Gandhi

[brooklynite]

55. How is he being "silenced"?

Or is electability an unacceptable discussion point?

[AgingAmerican]

59. They do this by having corporate media ignore Bernie Sanders

Because he is a threat to Wall Street.

[leftofcool]

82. Hasn't he been on tons of talk shows lately?

[AgingAmerican]

87. He has been on a few shows

But he is ignored when it comes to policy discussions.

[brooklynite]

118. Name a candidate who HAS been included in policy discussions

how is his coverage any different than Marco Rubio or Scott Walker?

[AgingAmerican]

125. They aren't running for the Democratic nomination

nt

[brooklynite]

142. Okay - what coverage has Hillary gotten that Bernie hasn't?

[AgingAmerican]

162. Are you serious?

Watch the video I posted.

[Hekate]

137. Wall Street Journal doesn't like Hillary at all. No way no how. You should try reading it. nt

[AgingAmerican]

139. Wall Street Journal is just a newspaper

It's called 'hedging their bets'. They donate to Democrats just in case they win the election.

https://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.php?cycle=Career&cid=n00000019

[eloydude]

126. Oh yes, Bernie will be elected as your next President of the United States

while Hillary Clinton flames out YET again....

Going to prop her up for 2024?

[leftofcool]

37. And I get that

But, there is no Executive order that can be presented or bill that any Democratic President can get passed that will raise taxes on the rich with the House controlled by Repukes.

[PowerToThePeople]

43. House will be up for election multiple times while he is President. n/t

[leftofcool]

54. Yes, and think Gerrymandering.

[AgingAmerican]

95. Defeatism

...so why even try? Just cede everything to the right without a fight.

[jwirr]

67. I do not see why you are all so upset about a free education. Education has and always will be an

investment in our country. That was one of the underlying basics for LBJ's war on poverty.

And at that time we fully understood that education was a good investment. It allowed more people to pay into the revenue. It allowed for better trained workers. It allowed for workers to be a bigger part of the economy - spending they did to improve their lifestyle. It allowed for entrepreneurial opportunities. And a lot more things that work in favor of not only the people but also our nation. It allowed us to increase the number of teachers, doctors, nurses etc that we needed in our economy.

Today education cost too much for most people. They do not want to owe a debt that they will never be able to pay off in their lifetime. And I doubt that Bernie expects the rich to get away with not paying into this. After all they are the ones most likely to benefit from better trained workers.

One of the sayings back then was "What if that child in the ghetto has the cure for cancer in him but we do not educate him?"

[leftofcool]

73. No problem with a free education

The problem is that it is never the rich who pay the taxes for it. It is always the middle class and old folks and we can't afford it.

[jwirr]

85. I agree but that is hardly the fault of either Bernie or Hillary. That is our fault that we have

let the Rs create a voting process that is anything but fair. This whole argument about free education really upsets me because I am watching my grandchildren work at idiot jobs EVEN when they have the brains to advance - just not the money.

[leftofcool]

88. Exactly!

The nice thing about idiot jobs as that your grandchildren may be able to take one class at a time at the community college and pay for it as they go. Sure, it might take a long to to graduate, but they can do it. Better than taking out loans they couldn't pay back

[jwirr]

96. They do not have enough money for food for their children. There have always been people who did

not have the money for education because they have families to support. The mother did go to school for a while but she had to quit to keep heat in the house.

I don't think your statement reflects how truly bad it is down here. It is hard to imagine what our kids today are facing.

[KingCharlemagne]

92. If the rich won't pay taxes, we can simply expropriate their wealth. - nt

[leftofcool]

98. Rich people don't keep money where you can expropriate it.

Keeping ones money in the US is for us peons. If you can find one 1%er who has money in this country, please give name, address and bank account number! Grandma needs new shoes!

[KingCharlemagne]

103. I understand where you're coming from, but do note I said "expropriate their

wealth" and not "expropriate their money." To wit, there are many beachfront mansions in Malibu (California) that would make wonderful old-age homes, veterans' hospices and housing for the homeless.

[leftofcool]

108. No kidding! Send me to Malibu when I am ready for assisted living!

[bravenak]

149. I'm down with this plan.

[treestar]

178. Sounds like an average voter

The ones who have to be convinced. They are not just going to vote for Bernie. They may come up with questions like that. Isn't there an answer?

[orpupilofnature57]

3. My over - simplistic definition

Hillary forget what I've done in the past remember the future


Bernie look at my past to see what I'll do for your Future .


Supporters point of veiw should reflect what their canidate say's as opposed to what they do.



Keep Trying, gravity will obey eventually, or as Secratary Clinton once said" Common people can't we just get on with it " .

[MaggieD]

17. What has Bernie "done"

He can't even get Democrats in congress to go along with his ideas. He's about as effective as Dennis Kucinich was in congress.

Why would it be different if he were President?

[orpupilofnature57]

51. Your post 12:44 this post 12:39, your not reading, here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6716469

[MaggieD]

65. Again, what has he "done"

Does he have the right values? Yes, IMO, he does.

But we need more than that in a President. He's too far to the left for a lot voters and the people in congress that represent them. Like Kucinich that prevents him from really being effective.

[orpupilofnature57]

83. And NO ONE will elect Hillary because of what she's

DONE .

[MaggieD]

84. So you won't vote for her if nominated?

Is that what you're saying?

[orpupilofnature57]

90. No it's not, I'm saying I would hate to . And will

do whatever I can to elect someone that I can Trust and Respect .

[MaggieD]

94. Good for you

Same for me with Bernie. I'd vote for him if I had to, but I'd rather support someone who I also trust and respect AND who would be more effective in my view. That's HRC for me.

[cascadiance]

182. Too "far left" and doesn't "do anything"? How about the Fed audit?!

"Far Left" Bernie in that case led the charge and worked with REPUBLICAN congressman Ron Paul in the House to put together a bill that was passed that let us audit the Federal Reserve, that had long been too secretive to show much of anything they'd done before they passed that bill!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Transparency_Act

It was auditing the Fed that helped provide senators like Ms. Warren the ammo to propose a bill where students would be able to borrow at rates that the fed charges banks.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2015/03/18/warren-sees-popular-momentum-for-student-loan-bill/NyocLbPmTgRKTx3SYH1aGJ/story.html

There are also many other things he's done too, but this one bill pretty much discounts what you've tried to criticize him with here.

[orpupilofnature57]

188. Well Put !!!!!

[orpupilofnature57]

57. Also this is how you tell what a person has done and is doing, the longest

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=114&session=1&vote=00142

[MaggieD]

148. Unless it's HRC apparently

Then it means nothing. As I have been told routinely.

[arcane1]

112. And Hillary CAN?

I liked the other version of you better

[Autumn]

138. Some things always come around again.

[MaggieD]

145. Absolutely

She already has in fact.

[cali]

143. You provided some form of health care, right? And as I understand it you

are now in some kind of business having to do with health care insurance?

Do you know what a CHC is? Look up Bernie Sanders, CHC funding ACA. You can manage that, right?

[MaggieD]

144. I do - not now

.... But since I started my business long ago. HRC was instrumental in getting SCHIPs passed 20 years ago.

ETA - she had a greater impact as first lady than your pal as an elected representative. And THAT says something.

[cali]

165. I know you haven't the slightest clue as to the difference between opinion and fact

there is exactly no hope that you ever will, magg

[orpupilofnature57]

166. Agreed, look at ALL of your posts .

Devoted & Deluded or in other words D&D .

[MaggieD]

170. Well let's fact check me then.....

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/03/giving-hillary-credit-for-schip/

[orpupilofnature57]

167. Her husband was president, she wasn't " Instrumental " in

anything but concessions, cover-ups, and denials, which she was good at, still is . Second Eleanor Roosevelt had more impact on society than any other First Lady in history . Bernie Sanders Ideals, Votes and visage of his work resembles what FDR had in mind . Hillary for all her accolades and how she started and how she ended up, ressembles Prescott Bush .

[MaggieD]

169. That's just not true

Sad that you believe that.

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/03/giving-hillary-credit-for-schip/

[peacebird]

177. Bingo! Why would anyone believe HRC is now a populist? DLC/Corporatist/3rdwayer is her history

[onecaliberal]

183. Hillary: Nevermind that I will owe favors to every billionaire who has funded my campaign

And my family foundation. And please don't worry about my positions, I can change those in the blink if an eye when polling goes south.

Senator Sanders is fighting for the same things he's always fought for. He has a very long and distinguished record.

Look for yourself if you dare.

http://www.ontheissues.org/House/Bernie_Sanders.htm

[cali]

4. beyond puerile and ridiculous.

Let me reduce to the personal: I'm a Sanders supporter. I was born into great financial and cultural privilege. I'm set for the rest of my life. I want others to have at least some of the financial benefits I did. I never even thought about paying for college- let alone how much it cost to send me to the most expensive Country Day schools and prep school. I want people to have healthcare and education and a decent roof over their heads and not have to worry about where their next meal comes from.

And I believe that the vast majority of DUers are with me on that, whatever their backgrounds.

[orpupilofnature57]

7. +1000 !!!!

Your honesty is the only thing lets people know what's really going on, your Great .

[cantbeserious]

8. Roger That - Many Real Democrats See HRC For What She Is - A Patron Of The Oligarchs

eom

[cali]

20. Leaving HRC out of it; I am utterly sure that most DUers whoever they support

feel as I do. The OP has presented a false dichotomy, and whoever in this thread remarked that the op made Hillary supporters sound like republicans, is spot on.

[cantbeserious]

48. Noble Sentiment - This One Witnesses The Clinton's Activities Of Patronage For The Oligarchs

Despite the new populism rhetoric, all need to remember that HRC started political life as a Republican. Seems her stripes are most comfortable adorning those robes.

And despite popular sentiment, all need to remember that WJC was an ardent supporter of the DLC / Third Way which clearly does not represent democracy for the people.

So, the Clinton's are a mixed bag at best.

There fondness for the ultra wealthy at the expense of the people is documented fact - witness the devastating effects of NAFTA.

Adding insult to injury - witness the repeal of Glass-Steagall.

Continuing - witness the reform of welfare.

And finally - witness the the vote for the Iraq War.

The case is clear - the Clinton's are bad for 99% of Americans.

[cali]

66. So you're a hit and run flamebait poster. That's contemptible

[cantbeserious]

69. That Is A Contemptible Post Coming From You

Last edited Sat May 23, 2015, 02:59 PM - Edit history (1)

eom

[orpupilofnature57]

32. Exactly !!!!!!!!!

[treestar]

179. They aren't enough to elect a President though

Hillary is not a Patron of the Oligarchs, that is ridiculous. And most voters in the US don't talk like that.

[cantbeserious]

184. HRC Is Beholden To Wall Street - Wall Street Is Beholden To Oligarchs

eom

[treestar]

191. Just keep repeating that meaningless trope

The average voter is not going to hear or consider it long.

[cantbeserious]

195. Pointing Out Facts As A Voter - Has Meaining For Some

eom

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. Agree. I would add that a better society would better fuel a healthy economy. n/t

[KingCharlemagne]

100. I want the people who do the work to reap the benefits of their work, not the global 1%, who

mostly live off of rents and dividends, i.e., parasitism.

[cali]

119. In fairness

to my father, who spent his twenties beach bumming it and sort of pursuing anthropology and history, he invented and started manufacturing first counters and then computer peripherals. He worked his ass off. He paid his employees well and in many ways was a much better employer than he was a father. I still remember the time and money he put into employee gifts at Christmas. Everyone from the people who swept floors to secretaries and execs, got a bonus. He picked out a gift that everyone got, and then there were personal gifts for quite a number of people. And they really were personal. No shopping service crap. (and we kids always got the gift that went to everyone)

[KingCharlemagne]

122. Your post makes me a little sad as it evokes my own father somewhat. You seem to have

turned out more than OK, if I might be so presumptuous. If every capitalist were like your father, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion, I'm guessing.

But I'm also sad that you deserved a better father (as did I). Water under the bridge and all that.

[cali]

130. thank you for those very kind words.

[Exilednight]

135. I think we had the same father, except mine was a lawyer.

[cali]

140. brother (or sister) from another father.

[MaggieD]

150. Have you ever thought of volunteering?

It's good to get away from the keyboard and do something for those less fortunate sometimes. PM me if you need some suggestions.

[Alittleliberal]

155. You're silly.

[cali]

164. You know I'm disabled and

in considerable pain. My mobility is limited. And I spent most of my working life in social services and volunteered as a guardian ad litem, as a "big sister", and for a battered women's group

now do go away,dear mags.

[MaggieD]

168. There are still things you could do....

You could be a pen pal to women in prison, tutor kids for free, stuff envelopes for non- profit mailers, or make donation calls for them. I can think of tons of things you could do given that you can work at a computer all day.

Just a suggestion.

[cali]

171. Is that you Bill Frist?

Seriously, you are a piece of work.



Now don't you have some more truthiness to bestow on DU, maggs?

[MaggieD]

172. No it's just me

I'm a big believer in volunteerism. I even give my employees paid time off to work for non-profits. It helps other people, makes people more empathetic, and gives them a more positive attitude. IMO.

It wasn't a dig at you. I was serious.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

6. "Makers not Takers"? Sounds familiar.

[orpupilofnature57]

14. Republican Lite .

[NYC_SKP]

10. Sanders vs Clinton on Womens' Rights, LGBT Rights, Civil Rights:

One scores higher than the other.

Sanders:

Rated 93% by the ACLU, indicating a pro-civil rights voting record. (Dec 2002)
Rated 100% by the HRC, indicating a pro-gay-rights stance. (Dec 2006)
Rated 97% by the NAACP, indicating a pro-affirmative-action stance. (Dec 2006)

Clinton:

Rated 60% by the ACLU, indicating a mixed civil rights voting record. (Dec 2002)
Rated 89% by the HRC, indicating a pro-gay-rights stance. (Dec 2006)
Rated 96% by the NAACP, indicating a pro-affirmative-action stance. (Dec 2006)

http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/bernie_sanders.htm
http://www.ontheissues.org/Hillary_Clinton.htm

[orpupilofnature57]

16. + 1000 !!!

NYC_SKP I get more comprehensive ammo from you , Thanks.

[NYC_SKP]

30. You're welcome, orpupilofnature57! There's more to come!

Does the 57 refer to your year of birth?

If so, me too!

[orpupilofnature57]

34. Yep .

[Starry Messenger]

11. No.

That isn't even close. You are wrong on all premises.

[LWolf]

12. So, I'm interpreting,

based on my many years of background knowledge when it comes to liberal/conservative and Democratic/Republican talking points, your statements like this:

DLC/"centrist"/"New Dem"/3rd Way/neo-liberal/Republican/UNRESTRICTED CAPITALIST rhetoric

In other words, arrogance and greed.

[CharlotteVale]

13. What opportunities are Hillary supporters making available?

[truedelphi]

114. Plenty of opportunities, provided by Ms Clinton -

If you are a defense contractor.

If you are an executive (like Ed Rendell) at a huge Energy firm.

If you are a Monsanto executive.

If you are an insider on Wall Street.

If you are part and parcel of Big Industrialized Medicine and Big Pharma.
****
But for the rest of us "rank and file" -- not so many opportunities.

Although won't those self driving cars be great! (Although not so great when we wake up and realize those cars are about putting delivery drivers out of their jobs.)

[CharlotteVale]

121. Yep, and I suspect the other "opportunities"

are in other countries.

[sufrommich]

15. You don't speak for me and those rights you listed most

certainly are basic human rights. You sound like a republican.

[m-lekktor]

45. I don't believe most other Hillary supporters would agree with the OP either.

I would hope not anyway.

[leftofcool]

61. Actually, we believe this:

Food, clothing, shelter and medical care are basic human rights. College tuition, not so much and certainly not on the backs of middle class workers and us old folks because that is who would be feeling the pain. The rich are never going to be taxed and never have been. It has always been the middle class paying the taxes and those folks have a hard enough time just buying groceries for their kids, much less paying more taxes disguised as college freebies.

[Starry Messenger]

77. I guess a couple of them do.

I certainly don't agree with it. I don't think Hillary would either, actually.

[Gregorian]

19. That's too close to the "Wellfare queen" mantra for comfort.

When I slash an artery I want someone to provide a trip to the emergency room. What's wrong with that?

Why not just call it a safety net that it is.

[NYC_SKP]

25. I don't see a difference, actually.

The proposition is horrid, creating opportunity, this is a RW position.

[m-lekktor]

47. there isn't. it's a flat out Ronald Reagon supporter comment.

I am glad this person outed themselves for future reference.

[polichick]

21. Try this: HRC supporters are okay with having corporations run "our" govt...

Sanders supporters believe in govt of, by and for the people.

[840high]

157. ...^ that

[Jackpine Radical]

22. “The True Measure of Any Society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members” – Gandhi

Last edited Sat May 23, 2015, 02:26 PM - Edit history (1)

EOM

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Your formulation

Hillary supporter, I was born into this world, I need to help make opportunity available to everyone so that we all have an equal chance at success.
Bernie supporter, I was born into this world I have a right to food shelter clothing education and healthcare. Someone needs to provide it for me.

My formulation

The goal of a just government is to provide that every individual has the right to fulfil his or her potential and should be there to help him or her should they fail.

It was once said that the moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the needy and the handicapped.

-Hubert H. Humphrey

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. This is awesome. How to win friends and influence people.

Hillary has so much money she doesn't need votes, apparently.

[NYC_SKP]

28. Then you need to change your avatar. Unless your support that free market thing you're talkin bout.

.

"opportunity available to everyone" = "get government out of the way"

And healthcare, are you saying you're opposed to education and universal health care for all?

Wow.

[upaloopa]

72. That is not at all what I said

Keep making shit up
You are so good at it
Someone has to provide the service
You never talk about that part
Just that it should be available.

[orpupilofnature57]

99. Keep attacking people with valid points, And the " Someone "

is us .

[Thinkingabout]

31. You have the heads exploding. I think they should create a society where like people can provide

the needs of others who thinks this is the way to live. It would make them happy.

[leftofcool]

33. Hippie Communes?

[Thinkingabout]

53. Yes and I bet they have an experienced leader in mind.

[Autumn]

78. Yeah we do. His name is Bernie Sanders. Experienced and cares about the American people

An amplification of Bernie's 12 Steps from his website

1. Rebuilding Our Crumbling Infrastructure
We need a major investment to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure: roads, bridges, water systems, waste water plants, airports, railroads and schools. It has been estimated that the cost of the Bush-Cheney Iraq War, a war we should never have waged, will total $3 trillion by the time the last veteran receives needed care. A $1 trillion investment in infrastructure could create 13 million decent paying jobs and make this country more efficient and productive. We need to invest in infrastructure, not more war.

2. Reversing Climate Change
The United States must lead the world in reversing climate change and make certain that this planet is habitable for our children and grandchildren. We must transform our energy system away from fossil fuels and into energy efficiency and sustainable energies. Millions of homes and buildings need to be weatherized, our transportation system needs to be energy efficient and we need to greatly accelerate the progress we are already seeing in wind, solar, geothermal, biomass and other forms of sustainable energy. Transforming our energy system will not only protect the environment, it will create good paying jobs.

3. Creating Worker Co-ops
We need to develop new economic models to increase job creation and productivity. Instead of giving huge tax breaks to corporations which ship our jobs to China and other low-wage countries, we need to provide assistance to workers who want to purchase their own businesses by establishing worker-owned cooperatives. Study after study shows that when workers have an ownership stake in the businesses they work for, productivity goes up, absenteeism goes down and employees are much more satisfied with their jobs.

4. Growing the Trade Union Movement
Union workers who are able to collectively bargain for higher wages and benefits earn substantially more than non-union workers. Today, corporate opposition to union organizing makes it extremely difficult for workers to join a union. We need legislation which makes it clear that when a majority of workers sign cards in support of a union, they can form a union.

5. Raising the Minimum Wage
The current federal minimum wage of $7.25 an hour is a starvation wage. We need to raise the minimum wage to a living wage. No one in this country who works 40 hours a week should live in poverty.
6. Pay Equity for Women Workers
Women workers today earn 78 percent of what their male counterparts make. We need pay equity in our country — equal pay for equal work.

7. Trade Policies that Benefit American Workers
Since 2001 we have lost more than 60,000 factories in this country, and more than 4.9 million decent-paying manufacturing jobs. We must end our disastrous trade policies (NAFTA, CAFTA, PNTR with China, etc.) which enable corporate America to shut down plants in this country and move to China and other low-wage countries. We need to end the race to the bottom and develop trade policies which demand that American corporations create jobs here, and not abroad.

8. Making College Affordable for All
In today's highly competitive global economy, millions of Americans are unable to afford the higher education they need in order to get good-paying jobs. Further, with both parents now often at work, most working-class families can't locate the high-quality and affordable child care they need for their kids. Quality education in America, from child care to higher education, must be affordable for all. Without a high-quality and affordable educational system, we will be unable to compete globally and our standard of living will continue to decline.

9. Taking on Wall Street
The function of banking is to facilitate the flow of capital into productive and job-creating activities. Financial institutions cannot be an island unto themselves, standing as huge profit centers outside of the real economy. Today, six huge Wall Street financial institutions have assets equivalent to 61 percent of our gross domestic product - over $9.8 trillion. These institutions underwrite more than half the mortgages in this country and more than two-thirds of the credit cards. The greed, recklessness and illegal behavior of major Wall Street firms plunged this country into the worst financial crisis since the 1930s. They are too powerful to be reformed. They must be broken up.

10. Health Care as a Right for All
The United States must join the rest of the industrialized world and recognize that health care is a right of all, and not a privilege. Despite the fact that more than 40 million Americans have no health insurance, we spend almost twice as much per capita on health care as any other nation. We need to establish a Medicare-for-all, single-payer system.

11. Protecting the Most Vulnerable Americans
Millions of seniors live in poverty and we have the highest rate of childhood poverty of any major country. We must strengthen the social safety net, not weaken it. Instead of cutting Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and nutrition programs, we should be expanding these programs.

12. Real Tax Reform
At a time of massive wealth and income inequality, we need a progressive tax system in this country which is based on ability to pay. It is not acceptable that major profitable corporations have paid nothing in federal income taxes, and that corporate CEOs in this country often enjoy an effective tax rate which is lower than their secretaries. It is absurd that we lose over $100 billion a year in revenue because corporations and the wealthy stash their cash in offshore tax havens around the world. The time is long overdue for real tax reform.

[Thinkingabout]

102. And he has commune experience.

The resume really sounds like Hillary's also.

[Autumn]

105. So fucking what? Is that supposed to be something awful?

Maybe to small stunted republican minds that would be a minus but not to any intelligent thinking person.

[Thinkingabout]

109. Are you a expert on small republican minds? Not here, wrong again, I just said you have a leader,

if you don't like him then pick another for the commune.

[Autumn]

116. Oh I like the one I've chosen to support for President.

Your little hippie punching remark missed by a mile

[Thinkingabout]

131. Oh, you should ask him, he spent a few years in one.

[Autumn]

132. As an old hippie I don't need to ask.

another miss.

[Thinkingabout]

133. Already knew, huh

[leftofcool]

110. I lived in one for about 6 months. I don't see anything wrong with it.

[m-lekktor]

35. wow. your characterization of a Bernie supporter

sounds like Rush Limbaugh's characterization of Liberals! This post is all I need to know about you.

[DawgHouse]

38. Ha! I'm a Hillary supporter but I think you've just talked me into supporting Bernie! n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. I am in favor of the mixed economy. I am a Keynesian.

Where markets and incentives work I am in favor of markets and incentives. Where markets and incentives don't work or lead to inefficiencies that hurt people I favor government intervention .

Tax wealth for the benefit of all.

[AgingAmerican]

41. Did you vote for Mitt Romney last time?

Because you just repeated his 'takers vs makers' position.

Commies!!

[Thinkingabout]

60. You really like Romney, huh, well he isn't running this time.

[AgingAmerican]

63. Then who will you vote for?

Mitt Romney "There are 47% of people who feel entitled to healthcare, to food, to housing!"

[Thinkingabout]

106. Sounds like you are a fan of Mitt's, could be his fan voted for him.

Don't be ridiculous. I have been a Democrat all of my life and will remain a Democrat for the rest of my life. Accusing me of such is not acceptable.

[NYC_SKP]

46. You and Hillary against the right to education and healthcare? We have to get that on our own?

And if we elect her she'll help to make that opportunity available to everyone???

Like, get government out of the way? Enable people to lift themselves up by their bootstraps?





OH, man, you'll never live this down on this board.

Hillary vs Bernie re: supporter point of view

Hillary supporter, I was born into this world, I need to help make opportunity available to everyone so that we all have an equal chance at success.

Bernie supporter, I was born into this world I have a right to food shelter clothing education and healthcare. Someone needs to provide it for me.

That's just some sick shit, there.

[think]

58. The OP's post is very disingenuous & hypocritical to say the least. /nt

[AgingAmerican]

70. Mitt Romney "There are 47% of people who feel entitled to healthcare, to food, to housing!"

nt

[NuclearDem]

49. Oh dear.

No, that's not right.

[cali]

50. I suggest you self-delete. Hillary supporters here don't support the republican meme

meme that you're parroting. Not saying you were aware that that's a classic republican line, but you've been informed of it repeatedly in this thread.

[marym625]

56. This is some seriously bullshit stuff

You are quoting every right wing candidate, just exchange Hillary for Republican and Sanders for Democrat.

You also seem to miss the FACT we have working poor, millions of children going to bed hungry that have working families

Please quote ANY Bernie supporter that said this.

You really should be ashamed of yourself. But then again, your whole point was to bait and ditch.

Some people don't belong on a democratic site.

[Autumn]

62. That sure does sound familiar. Damn those Cadillac Queens that support Bernie Sanders.

Old Ronnie Reagan has been rotting in his grave for well over three days, my deepest sympathy for your failed dreams.

[fredamae]

64. hahahahahaha-nice try n/t

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

68. For decades we have hoped for someone...

to step forward and fight for the people. A compassionate person willing to do more for others than for themself. Someone intelligent, forthright, with an ability to think outside the normal Washington ideas. A fighter wiling and capable to take on corporations, banks, Wall Street. A politician that is willing to say to the very wealthy, ENOUGH! Pay your own way also.

Now that leader is here and the negative discourse is staggering.

Bernie Sanders is just the right man for the job at this time. Someone with the vision to put this country back into the hands of the people where it rightly belongs.

I'm a Dem for life always was. I will vote for the choice of my party.

Ah yes, the but, always the but....

I hope that choice is Bernie!

[Autumn]

74. This is why WE support Bernie Sanders.

I see why it would upset poor mistreated republicans and why they would think that supporting that big bad Bernie Sanders would make us welfare queens.

Special thanks to Jackpine Radical for this Op
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12808348

1. Rebuilding Our Crumbling Infrastructure
We need a major investment to rebuild our crumbling infrastructure: roads, bridges, water systems, waste water plants, airports, railroads and schools. It has been estimated that the cost of the Bush-Cheney Iraq War, a war we should never have waged, will total $3 trillion by the time the last veteran receives needed care. A $1 trillion investment in infrastructure could create 13 million decent paying jobs and make this country more efficient and productive. We need to invest in infrastructure, not more war.

2. Reversing Climate Change
The United States must lead the world in reversing climate change and make certain that this planet is habitable for our children and grandchildren. We must transform our energy system away from fossil fuels and into energy efficiency and sustainable energies. Millions of homes and buildings need to be weatherized, our transportation system needs to be energy efficient and we need to greatly accelerate the progress we are already seeing in wind, solar, geothermal, biomass and other forms of sustainable energy. Transforming our energy system will not only protect the environment, it will create good paying jobs.

3. Creating Worker Co-ops
We need to develop new economic models to increase job creation and productivity. Instead of giving huge tax breaks to corporations which ship our jobs to China and other low-wage countries, we need to provide assistance to workers who want to purchase their own businesses by establishing worker-owned cooperatives. Study after study shows that when workers have an ownership stake in the businesses they work for, productivity goes up, absenteeism goes down and employees are much more satisfied with their jobs.

4. Growing the Trade Union Movement
Union workers who are able to collectively bargain for higher wages and benefits earn substantially more than non-union workers. Today, corporate opposition to union organizing makes it extremely difficult for workers to join a union. We need legislation which makes it clear that when a majority of workers sign cards in support of a union, they can form a union.

5. Raising the Minimum Wage
The current federal minimum wage of $7.25 an hour is a starvation wage. We need to raise the minimum wage to a living wage. No one in this country who works 40 hours a week should live in poverty.
6. Pay Equity for Women Workers
Women workers today earn 78 percent of what their male counterparts make. We need pay equity in our country — equal pay for equal work.

7. Trade Policies that Benefit American Workers
Since 2001 we have lost more than 60,000 factories in this country, and more than 4.9 million decent-paying manufacturing jobs. We must end our disastrous trade policies (NAFTA, CAFTA, PNTR with China, etc.) which enable corporate America to shut down plants in this country and move to China and other low-wage countries. We need to end the race to the bottom and develop trade policies which demand that American corporations create jobs here, and not abroad.

8. Making College Affordable for All
In today's highly competitive global economy, millions of Americans are unable to afford the higher education they need in order to get good-paying jobs. Further, with both parents now often at work, most working-class families can't locate the high-quality and affordable child care they need for their kids. Quality education in America, from child care to higher education, must be affordable for all. Without a high-quality and affordable educational system, we will be unable to compete globally and our standard of living will continue to decline.

9. Taking on Wall Street
The function of banking is to facilitate the flow of capital into productive and job-creating activities. Financial institutions cannot be an island unto themselves, standing as huge profit centers outside of the real economy. Today, six huge Wall Street financial institutions have assets equivalent to 61 percent of our gross domestic product - over $9.8 trillion. These institutions underwrite more than half the mortgages in this country and more than two-thirds of the credit cards. The greed, recklessness and illegal behavior of major Wall Street firms plunged this country into the worst financial crisis since the 1930s. They are too powerful to be reformed. They must be broken up.

10. Health Care as a Right for All
The United States must join the rest of the industrialized world and recognize that health care is a right of all, and not a privilege. Despite the fact that more than 40 million Americans have no health insurance, we spend almost twice as much per capita on health care as any other nation. We need to establish a Medicare-for-all, single-payer system.

11. Protecting the Most Vulnerable Americans
Millions of seniors live in poverty and we have the highest rate of childhood poverty of any major country. We must strengthen the social safety net, not weaken it. Instead of cutting Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and nutrition programs, we should be expanding these programs.

12. Real Tax Reform
At a time of massive wealth and income inequality, we need a progressive tax system in this country which is based on ability to pay. It is not acceptable that major profitable corporations have paid nothing in federal income taxes, and that corporate CEOs in this country often enjoy an effective tax rate which is lower than their secretaries. It is absurd that we lose over $100 billion a year in revenue because corporations and the wealthy stash their cash in offshore tax havens around the world. The time is long overdue for real tax reform.

[Bluenorthwest]

75. FDR's 'Second Bill of Rights' included the right to a good education, it is not a new idea/

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the Nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.

http://www.rooseveltinstitute.org/new-roosevelt/fdr-s-second-bill-rights-necessitous-men-are-not-free-men

[LoveIsNow]

76. So.... Which one sounds like a Democrat?

And which like a Republican?

Without equal access to food, shelter, clothing, education, and healthcare (and transportation), equal opportunity does not truly exist.

When you are unable to feed yourself or put a roof over your head, when your clothes are torn to shreds, when you have teeth broken or missing that you can't afford to fix, when you couldn't afford college and had to drop out, when you can't afford a car, how do you have equality of opportunity with someone whose parents sent them into the world with a good education, good healthcare, and a car?

The success of the second individual is all but preordained, as is the failure of the first. Surely our life choices can make or break our lives, but when some have a rocky path to success, and others a red carpet, that is simply unequal opportunity to succeed.

The system you call Hillary's only offers us the equal opportunity to survive. Bernie's point of view (and mine) is that our society would work better if it we looked at survival as a human right, and worked on giving people the equal opportunity to thrive, so that they can make a contribution to their community, country, and world.

[orpupilofnature57]

79. Well put .

[leftofcool]

86. So, do we want all these things free?

Or do we want to raise the minimum wage to a "real" living wage and create more jobs?

[Autumn]

101. Education benefits us all, tax breaks for the wealthy and corporations and Wall Street benefit

only the wealthy and corporations and Wall Street, Fuck them they have gotten a free ride long enough. Time for them to pay. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but Ronald Reagan is still fucking dead and was a fucking moron in life.

[leftofcool]

113. If you can get them taxed, hell I'm all for it!

When was the last time the wealthy were taxed for social programs. Never! Even if there was a tax raised on them, where does it go? Pentagon!

[Autumn]

134. You just need someone be willing to fight to make them pay taxes.

It's amazing what a President willing to fight for something can do. Take Fast track for example. That shows what a President can do if they really want something done.

[ms liberty]

160. 20th century from FDR to sometime in the 70's...

We've done it before, and we know it works. We can do it again.

[LoveIsNow]

141. Some of both.

Essential commodities like that should be kept, if not free, affordable to anyone. However I understand that the more social programs that are free to their recipients, the greater the resentment from those who are paying taxes and not receiving the benefits of these programs. Therefore, I think: (A) it is important that there be some kind of contribution required from all able citizens to receive the benefits of living in our country, be that in the form of copays for government benefits, a basic citizen's tax, or community service, and that (B) we should extend our welfare state beyond just the very poor, so that those in the lower and middle class (outside of the very poor) can see the direct benefit of them paying taxes. (Also, because they aren't doing too hot either). In short everyone should have a give and take relationship with the government.

As for the minimum wage, it is obvious that it is well overdue for a raise. When there are college-educated people who can only get minimum wage jobs, we must make it a true living wage. However, I have several reservations about using the minimum wage as our only tool to improve the lot of workers and stimulate monetary flow:

First, I think that if you increase the minimum wage, you will not do all that much to increase access to healthcare and education, because the price of these commodities will rise as there is more demand, or they will become scarce - universities will become more selective, and it will be harder to see a doctor. We will need to invest in new and existing schools, and we will need to provide incentives for people to fill key shortages in the medical sector.

Secondly, while the minimum wage protects workers from slave wages, it cannot protect them from a host of other abuses - not from fake managerial promotions to avoid paying overtime, not from being intimidated into doing things that aren't part of one's job. It can't make sure you get sick days or that you don't face retaliation for using them. This is why we need to streamline the process for forming a union, so that instead of the government defending workers (a task at which they have proven ineffective), they can defend themselves. Better yet, the government could provide grants or low-interest loans for the founding of worker cooperatives, removing the boss, so that the process for setting wages can be democratic rather than adversarial.

Also, by focusing on building trade unionism and cooperativism in this country rather than on the minimum wage, the wages achieved will be tailored to the location and industry, rather than a one size fits all approach. What is a fair minimum wage in Gallup, New Mexico is far too low in Seattle, but the reverse is true, and in desperately poor Gallup, a $15 minimum wage would be a severe burden for many businesses.

Finally, I think that most minimum wage jobs are "busy work". They are service jobs, hospitality, etc. that do not contribute anything to anyone but the owners. If you work a job like this your whole life, how high will your self esteem be? How long before your day is just: work for the man, stop for food and beer, consume, sleep, repeat? What will your child's career day be like when you have to tell their class that you work at Starbucks? I think our country can't settle for this type of economy. When we have a shortage of general practitioners, teachers, and nurses, and when our whole national infrastructure is wholly inadequate, why waste our human capital on cahshiers and servers? The government needs to step in with investment where the private sector won't, so that these jobs can go back to being temporary or starter jobs, instead of simply settling for a nation of adequately-paid baristas, and declaring okay a situation that is clearly not okay.

In summation, I would say that while a substantial increase in the minimum wage, as well as pegging it to inflation, are a part of the solution, on their own they are merely a patch, not a true solution. Also, in regards to the welfare state, that it cannot replace a robust welfare state either.

Sorry for the long response, but, hey, you asked.

[historylovr]

154. +1

[840high]

158. +1

[whatchamacallit]

196. +1

[Katashi_itto]

80. Spoken like a true Hillary Supporter.

[marym625]

89. I call bullshit on your edit

First, the fact you don't know the answer just shows how uninformed you are.

Second, you can't respond with any sincerity to the call outs on your original, RW propaganda post so you changed your story.

Third, still right wing propaganda.

Do some research. You will have answers to your questions. Though, I suspect you don't care what the answers are

[Scootaloo]

104. Yup, I think you've encapsulated the outlook of a Clinton supporter quite nicely

[TheNutcracker]

107. Bernie has put a way forth to pay for free college.You could google it. hint: CNN money page

[arcane1]

111. At least you're giving Sanders supporters right-wing arguments to practice on.

"Who puts in the effort to become a professor? " has to do with... what exactly?

Who pays for Hillary's vague "opportunities"?

[cali]

115. Aren't you the brave poster? Nope. You post puerile flamebait

run, run, run away, come back edit the shit- not that it's much of an improvement and then duck off again.

And if you're going to post stuff, do some research, so you don't demonstrate your abysmal lack of knowledge, loopa.

Bernie is talking only about public universities and colleges. If you knew anything about the history of those institutions you'd know that there were once many that were either tuition free or very inexpensive for instate student.

Here's his plan, oh poster of puerile flamebait:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/05/19/bernie_sanders_free_college_plan_make_wall_street_pay_for_higher_education.html
Bernie Sanders Wants to Make College Tuition Free. Here’s Why We Should Take Him Seriously.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/apr/11/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20120411

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_tuition_in_the_United_States

Your op really is a towering, reeking pile of .....

[Autumn]

120. Prove this to me and everyone else you have offended

"Bernie supporter, I was born into this world I have a right to food shelter clothing education and healthcare. Someone needs to provide it for me."

Where's your poof of that statement of your belief?

I always wanted to ask the idiot republicans who pull that out of their ass but never had a chance.

[marym625]

156. I asked the same question

Just a hit and ditch post. Ridiculous

[99Forever]

123. ...

[Cheese Sandwich]

124. Bill O'Reilly is that you?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

128. You should delete this thread . It is beyond repair.

There has to be better ways to present the difficulty a candidate will have in enacting the programs he or she advances.

[AndreaCG]

129. Who paid for it in the 50s and 60s

When most public universities were free or charged a nominal tuition? Taxpayers. Because education was seen as furthering the common good, especially when it was veterans we were paying for. Even private institutions were more accessible if you were poor, by working part time during the school year and full time during summer. Make the upper middle class, the wealthy and corporations pay their fair shares to support not just higher education but public K-12 as well instead of public funds going to charter schools and even religious ones.

And BTW you DO NOT REPRESENT Hillary supporters in general!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bobjacksonk2832]

146. This is Right Wing flamebait at its worst.

I can't believe so-called "progressives" here would resort to such sophomoric arguments. In any case, I much prefer Sanders to Clinton any day of the week.

[Motown_Johnny]

147. Tax increases on corporations and top bracket individuals

along with increases on capital gains taxes above a level to be debated later.

You know, everything that Progressives support.

Why do you think the question you asked is difficult to answer? Bernie is a Socialist. We know exactly how he will pay for things.

[Vincardog]

151. Who provides Bernie's free education? It is paid for by a .005% tax on high speed traders.

Who has the knowledge to share with students? The same professionals we have doing it now.
Who puts in the effort to become a professor? People who want to.

Now can we count on your support?

[ucrdem]

152. LOL, you are taking a lot of hits upaloopa but I think you have a valid observation.

For better or worse, Bill and Hillary are well-intentioned technocrats, and believe in using the levers of government to achieve what they feel to be worthy ends. We might disagree on some means and ends, and those disagreements aren't trivial, and Bill might have a more telegenic personality than Hillary, but thats what they are. That's also why Bill won many elections and why Hillary will probably win in 2016.

Bernie on the other hand is great at saying no, and that's probably just what Vermonters want to hear. He can call himself whatever he likes but he's basically a libertarian with a thinning New Deal comb over. His "Robin Hood" plan is an unconvincing toupee. His public role in all the years I've been aware of him has been to attack Dems from the left and he's played it with relish and continues to play it. Wonderful guy if you like that kind of thing but it won't win many Dem primaries much less get him elected president.

[INdemo]

153. sounds like a Republican script

[L0oniX]

159. It's amazing that you've managed to not get banned within your 6k+ posts.

[ms liberty]

161. Well, this has been a most instructive thread...

Interesting to see some of these comments. Very revealing. Of course, the OP is bullshit...

[freshwest]

163. The only way to get from your examples is teaching the social contract.

Although I don't accept your parameters for either of them.

No matter people think, we are in a social contract with everyone, whether we like them or not.

I don't go for the demonization of banks, oil companies, the needy, or anything. There are reasons for all of those things, in moderation. When things get out of balance, is when there is a collapse and great misery.

Example of the social contract is that people work for each other, and should be able to survive and thrive. Different people have different abilitis. Confront me with a spreadsheet, and my brain leaves the room. Have me try to be a teacher, and my body will leave first. I've done a lot of physical labor. Now I can't, I run from it but others can handle. Give me a menial job I think is pointless, repetitive and boring, and I go utterly batshit.

But I need someone who can do all of those things.

In politics, the social contract means some people do believe wars need to be fought to save the nation, others thinks they don't need to happen. Some believe that we should have social services, others think they are worse than going to war.

In each case taxes are paid for each of those things. The point of balance and justice are in finding a medium range. In that reckoning, your context fails.

OTOH, if you are looking at things from a Libertarian POV, every little tax or every big one, and all forms of government are 100% evil unless they are going to directly benefit.

Neither Democratic candidate is goine to give you that. Despite your example , HRC is known as a 'big, no, huge government' advocate. If she's changed her mind due to her latest foray across the USA, it'll be because she ran into a lot of LIbertarians who think what you ascribe to her but doesn't fit her record.

But then again, you may be speaking on a very different plane and we are not getting thriough to each other. Bernie is my first choice, but I look for good things about HRC, too.

Sorry if that's not where you were going there.

[hootinholler]

173. "If you can't answer me without an insult"

When you can ask me without an insult, I will answer you without an insult.

SO what sort of folk form an insult as a 'question'? I suspect you are one.

[merrily]

175. Speaks volumes: 2307 views, 174 replies and only 5 recs for claiming that Hillary supporters are

Last edited Sat May 30, 2015, 08:39 AM - Edit history (1)

there to help others while Bernie supporters are looking for a handout for doing nothing.



(recs from cantbeserious, freshwest, Thinkingabout, Moon River and leftofcool)'

ETA: lunamagica has now joined the ranks of the very few who agree that supporting Bernie means I want a free ride. So make that six.

[daleanime]

185. Please think about editing post.....

no need to name names.

[merrily]

186. Hi, I am not sure what is happening here. Are you making this request as a host of GD?

The names of people who rec threads are visible to anyone who wants to see them.

[daleanime]

189. No, just a worry wart.....

who doesn't want anyone to get any trouble. Seen too many silly alerts.

[merrily]

190. Thank you.

All anyone has to do to see the names of the reccers is click on the number that shows how many recs the thread has. I cannot imagine I would get a hide, just for saving readers the trouble of clicking. However, if you are worried about an alert in the future, pm is the way to go. Otherwise, you are only making an alert more likely by kicking the thread and drawing negative attention to the post you think might be alertworthy.

[daleanime]

180. Sure I could answer you without a insult.....

I could talk about how it's not a matter what's owed to some one, but what's the best investment we as a nation could make for our future.



But that's not what you want.

[whatchamacallit]

181. Repuke Bootstraps Bullshit

Someone just came out.

[Fumesucker]

187. Your OP reminded me of a book I read long ago...

[DanTex]

193. ...

[cyberswede]

192. Yikes. I don't think you're doing Hillary any favors with that comparison

Your first statement sounds like something a Republican would say.
And your second sentence sounds like something a conservative would claim a liberal would say.

...and if a student has access to affordable college, doesn't that help him or her achieve their dream of becoming a professor (to use your example)?

[HereSince1628]

194. Great example of use of a Red-Herring, it screams out to be bookmarked

[bunnies]

198. I cant wait for your next installment of RW lies about Liberals.

This one was such a success for you.