NFL Finds It Probable The New England Patriots Deliberately Deflated Balls

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Developing...

[KMOD]

1. uh-oh

[yuiyoshida]

84. -passes out free popcorn-

[cherokeeprogressive]

2. Developing a yawn here.

[joeybee12]

3. In other words, there's no evidence...

And are saying the most likley cause..also, in other words, the NFL is covering its collective ass.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. Actually the reports finds it more likely than not...

In a civil case that is all that is required to establish liability.

[joeybee12]

5. In other words, no evidence....

This is legalese at its worst...the NFL can't prove it, and by actually investigating they are going to let people know about the chairty scam, about how the footballs probably were not carefully inspected...etc.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. If you are an automobile manufacturer...

If you are an automobile manufacturer and there is a flaw that renders them unsafe and folks are injured or killed and a jury finds it "more likely than not" you are liable you are going to be paying out money.

Preponderance of the evidence, also known as balance of probabilities is the standard required in most civil cases, and in family court determinations solely involving money, such as child support under the Child Support Standards Act.

The standard is met if the proposition is more likely to be true than not true. Effectively, the standard is satisfied if there is greater than 50 percent chance that the proposition is true. Lord Denning, in Miller v. Minister of Pensions, described it simply as "more probable than not."

[joeybee12]

7. I think that's a different scenario...

Here the Pats could have done it, they could have been inspected poorly, someone else could have done it...they have no direct evidence of any three other than it was the Pats who held the footballs after the were inspected, so most probable they did something...like I said, the NFL wants this to go away, so they're blaming the Pats but not really blaming them to make it seem like they actually got to the bottom of this.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. I am not all that invested in the outcome except as news

I do find it interesting that they used this language:


(CNN) -- An NFL investigative report on accusations that the New England Patriots improperly deflated footballs during the AFC Championship game found that "it is more probable than not" that New England Patriots personnel participated in violations of the Playing Rules and were involved in a deliberate effort to circumvent the rules." The investigation, led by attorney Ted Wells, found "that it is more probable than not that" two Patriots employees "participated in a deliberate effort to release air from Patriots game balls after the balls were examined by the referee." "Based on the evidence, it also is our view that it is more probable than not that Tom Brady (the quarterback for the Patriots) was at least generally aware of the inappropriate activities... involving the release of air from Patriots game balls," the report said.

[joeybee12]

10. Like I said, no evidence...

There are different ways this could have happened, they think this is the most probable...somebody should file a class action alwsuit to see how and if they really did investigate...

"At least generally aware"

And that's the most mealy-mouthed of all the statements.

Die-hard Pats haters are gonna hate, everyone else will not really care.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. I don't have the juice to "litigate" it because it is not something I am all that interested in...

eom

[R B Garr]

13. It's more the other way around: It's the Die-hard Pats fans won't care because

it got them wins, which is all that matters in the long run.

Everyone else is just supposed to shut up about it so they can have their parades and, most importantly, bragging rights, lol.

[Johonny]

17. pretty much this

The evidence the NFL has was more than I and most reporters expected them to get. It isn't that big a deal int he grand scheme of things, but the cover up has likely pissed off the league office. But it is pretty damning evidence that they collected. Got me what will happen now. I doubt they suspend Brady for lying to them. I doubt they fine him. I thought they wanted it to go away but the report seems to indicate they wanted very badly to paint all the suspects. At least the coach is in the clear.

[joeybee12]

19. "generally aware"

All that means is Tom probably knew those guys wanted to make him happy...I thought that was the weakest "evidence" of the whole thing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. "More likely than not is a standard the NFL used to impose sanctions for the past seven years."

"Tom Brady didn't cooperate."

"Bigger than Bounteygate"

-Bill Polian

[MADem]

65. No one is going to get killed by an under-inflated ball.

It's a lousy analogy.

The teams give the balls to the refs--I should think THEY should take the hit if they let balls into play without double checking each and every one, every time.

If the thing is too deflated, make the respective team ball handler pump it back up before it gets on the field.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. It's an apt analogy...

I was only referring to the standard of proof required to prevail in civil court; "more probable than not'' is the standard of proof needed to prevail in civil court and it is the standard the NFL has used to impose sanctions the past seven years.

Here's the report:


https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/investigative-and-expert-reports-re-footballs-used-during-afc-championsh.pdf


Please feel free to bookmark this thread...The Wells Report will become as famous as the Dowd Report and will do to Brady's reputation what the Dowd Report did to Pete Rose's.

[MADem]

69. I rather doubt it. What "punishment" are they going to impose?

Run Brady out of town on a rail? Even if they suspend him for a game or two, that's a bit of a stretch. He's not the ball boy. They can fine the team, but for what? Suspicion?

Even members of the Colts acknowledge that New England was the superior team:

Colts' Allen says Patriots could have used 'soap for balls' and still won

Pffft. Tempest in a teapot. Maybe those refs oughta be checking those balls when they are handed over to them before the game starts, and maintaining positive control over them after they are checked, instead of trying to blame the teams because the refs aren't doing their jobs. Looks like there's a problem with the way the refs manage the checking and distribution of balls, I'd say. I'll bet they will tighten up their procedures as a consequence. If they don't, they shouldn't cry if this pops up again.

They've got no conclusive evidence. They've got suspicion, innuendo, and what they call "probability." That's the bottom line, really.

I doubt this will approach Wild Irish Rose levels of import, never mind "Pete Rose" levels. The NFL is full of steroid-pumped wife-beaters and murderers...they don't care about much of anything, save the almighty bottom line.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. I don't know what the appropriate punishment should be...

I was just speaking to the standard of proof...

Then I see the morons on "Around The Horn" dismissing the report because the investigators found that it "was more probable than not " that the balls were tampered with. The term "more probable than not" has a very specific meaning.


The fact of whether or not he had a competitive advantage is of no more moment when it comes to adjudication than if I shoot at someone and miss.

[MADem]

82. "No evidence" has meaning too, but that's not going to stop some from

singing from the Taylor Swift songbook.

Like another guy said today--it wouldn't have mattered if they were playing with Frisbees, the Patriots are the better team.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

85. The Wells Report found that it was more "probable than not" the balls were tampered with...

The Wells Report found that it was more "probable than not" the balls were tampered with and Brady knew.

To the non-lawyer, the money quotes from the Ted Wells report suggest a mere probability that cheating occurred. But the specific terminology used by Wells actually indicates a belief that the evidence satisfies one of the most common standards used in a court of law.

“More probable than not” equates to a “preponderance of the evidence,” the standard that applies in most civil lawsuits. It means that the evidence makes it more likely than not, in the opinion of the investigator, that “New England Patriots personnel participated in violations of the Playing Rules and were involved in a deliberate effort to circumvent the rules,” and that “Tom Brady . . . was at least generally aware of the inappropriate activities.”



http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/06/more-probable-than-not-carries-important-legal-meaning/

It doesn't matter whether or not the Patriots benefitted from violating the rules. It matters that they did...

This is a huge story...It's getting blanket coverage on ESPN and was the lead story on political news shows like Hardball and All In With Chris Hayes...Tomorrow it will be on the front page of many major newspapers.

As Joe Biden would say "this is a big f--king deal."

[MADem]

87. And Gallup and Karl Rove found it "more probable than not" that Romney would win in 2012.

Just because someone of sketchy provenance says something, it doesn't make it true.

[R B Garr]

88. And this is why the cheating was worth it.

You still get the wins while suggesting everyone else is crazy for expecting the Pats to follow NFL rules. Rules are for suckers.

[MADem]

97. Colts players maintain the best team won. nt

[R B Garr]

100. Wasn't it one of the Colts players who complained about the

ball pressure?

Of course the Pats would get one over on another team if they are cheating the rules to their advantage.

[MADem]

108. Well, three out of four of THEIR (COLTS) balls were under-inflated, too.

So....whatever!

[R B Garr]

111. Did you see the texts between the Pats employees?

From the report: "...of the inappropriate activities of McNally and Jastremski involving the release of air from Patriots game balls," the report said.

[MADem]

116. Yeah, they sounded like they were joking about Brady being a dick.

That just didn't sound like "conspiracy" to me.

Did you see where Wells (Dick Cheney's friend and Scooter Libby's lawyer) lied IN THE REPORT about access to McNally?

Didja? Huh? They didn't make him available ONCE, they made him available not two, not three, but FOUR times. When they wanted him a fifth time, that's when they said ENOUGH.

Didja see how the COLTS had under-inflated balls, TOO?

Didja see how the COLTS said the Pats were the better team?

But that doesn't suit the narrative, does it? http://www.patriots.com/news/2015/05/06/statement-new-england-patriots-chairman-and-ceo-robert-kraft-wells-report

[R B Garr]

119. And this is exactly why the cheating pays off. It's a calculated risk, but

worth it because you can discount everyone's concerns about rules and stash the wins anyway to brag about. Rules are for suckers.

[MADem]

121. I guess someone on the COLTS team was a dick, too.

Because they also had under-inflated balls.

But no one mentioned those. Oh, those must have been an "accident," eh? Only the Patriots balls, inflated to the bare minimum, entirely legally, should be questioned...? Yeah, whatever.

Robert Kraft is a Democrat who has donated to the Obama campaigns. Wells is a wingnut friend of Dick Cheney who helped Scooter Libby evade consequences. Wells LIED in the report about access to McNally. Kraft called him on it.

It's obvious what's going on here. It ain't "cheating." Were that the case, we would have seen the Pats fall on their asses after the balls were inflated to a higher PSI at half time. Instead, they scored double digits.

Some teams are just better. The Patriots pay well and they foster a cohesive organization that is very disciplined and enthused (Hernandez being an unfortunate exception, but he's joined the orange jumpsuit team). It's why they have loyal fans.

[mythology]

128. The Colts' footballs were found to be within the correct range

Then, at halftime, Riveron oversaw the testing of the Patriots’ footballs, instructing Anderson to go through his normal routine. Two officials tested 11 Patriots footballs and four Colts footballs, with the Patriots’ footballs all found to be less than the minimum 12.5 psi and the Colts’ football all within NFL rules.


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/06/wells-report-reflects-well-on-walt-anderson-officiating-crew/


If you were being honest, you would note that all four of the Colts' footballs that were tested were within the allowed range. Quoting directly from the report:

Each of the Colts footballs tested measured between 12.5 and 13.5 psi on at least one of the two gauges, as set forth below

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/investigative-and-expert-reports-re-footballs-used-during-afc-championsh.pdf

So unless there was some sort of magic involved that the Patriots' footballs were somehow subjected to a different set of weather condition than the Colts', there is basically no chance this occurred by accident. In fact, the Wells report did the math for you in the appendix.

From page 234:

The p-value for the team effect is 0.004, meaning that a between-team difference in average pressure drop as large or larger than the 0.73 psig difference observed between the Patriots and Colts would occur by chance only 0.4% of the time. The convention in statistical applications is to declare a finding significant if the p-value is less than 0.05—i.e., there is less than a 5% probability of observing a finding of that magnitude by chance. Thus, the p-values reported in Table A-3 also confirm the statistical significance of the team/gauge interaction effect and the variation in pressure drops among footballs provided by an individual team

The math, unlike Tom Brady, doesn't lie.

[MADem]

129. That's not what Kraft said, and I don't think he's lying.

They also claimed in that report that McNally was only made available/ interviewed once when they interviewed him FOUR times.

“What is not highlighted in the text of the report is that three of the Colts’ four footballs measured by at least one official were under the required psi level. As far as we are aware, there is no comparable data available from any other game because, in the history of the NFL, psi levels of footballs have never been measured at halftime, in any climate. If they had been, based on what we now know, it is safe to assume that every cold-weather game was played with under inflated footballs. As compelling a case as the Wells Report may try to make, I am going to rely on the factual evidence of numerous scientists and engineers rather than inferences from circumstantial evidence.

[opiate69]

103. Which is apropos of precisely...

[MADem]

107. Post 106 nt

[opiate69]

110. Weak sauce.

Fallacy of association.

[MADem]

117. How about the fallacy of Scooter Libby's lawyer LYING about his access to a

witness in the report?

Not a fallacy, that--but all I can say when it comes to associations, ya lie down with dogs like Scooter Libby and Dick Cheney, you get up with fleas.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

89. I don't see how you can compare the findings of a inept pollster and the opinion ...

I don't see how you can compare the findings of a inept pollster and the opinion of a political hack to the findings of an independent investigation commissioned by the National Football League.


The optics are awful...

[MADem]

91. Optics fade.

This ain't the end of the world.

When even the COLTS say they played better, and they are the ones pointing out that the Pats played better AFTER the balls were checked, well...

It comes off to some people like a bit of envy.

[R B Garr]

90. I take it you haven't been watching TV today? MSNBC is excoriating the Pats,

not at all sweeping it under the rug as nonsense as you are doing.

This is just more proof that it is the Pat's fans who don't care how they win, as long as they get one over on everyone, we're all supposed to shut up and take it.

[MADem]

92. MSNBC has been excoriating Democrats lately, too. They're "leaning in" to the right.

When the "enemy" says they could be playing with a frisbee or a bar of soap and the Pats would still win, I'd say the people complaining the loudest have an agenda that revolves around envy.

http://www.geeksandcleats.com/2015/05/colts-erik-walden-says-patriots-do-extra-sht-to-win/

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/laces-out/deflategate-colts-patriots-dwayne-allen-says-footballs-played-no-part-in-outcome-012115

[R B Garr]

93. Wow, so everyone in the NFL and MSNBC is envious of the Pats?

Really? It's just that simple.

[MADem]

95. Not the Colts, apparently.

They said they lost to the better team.

[R B Garr]

99. Wasn't it one of the Colts players who said the ball felt underinflated?

Which was then proven to be a true statement based on texts that just came out in this report.

MSNBC has also said more players from the NFL are not going to stay quiet about it anymore.

But the cheating was worth it to get those wins. Pats can just call every one else crazy and jealous.

[MADem]

105. Inflation was off on Colt's balls, too--but no one brought that up.

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2015/05/deflategate_indianapolis_colts.html

"What is not highlighted in the text of the report is that three of the Colts' four footballs measured by at least one official were under the required psi level. As far as we are aware, there is no comparable data available from any other game because, in the history of the NFL, psi levels of footballs have never been measured at halftime, in any climate. If they had been, based on what we now know, it is safe to assume that every cold-weather game was played with under inflated footballs.As compelling a case as the Wells Report may try to make, I am going to rely on the factual evidence of numerous scientists and engineers rather than inferences from circumstantial evidence."

Look, if the "game rules" are so important that they worry about that shit (like someone intercepting a ball isn't "advantaged" by the degree of inflation) then the refs need to take control of the situation and get the teams out of the equation. They should require that the equipment managers inflate the balls out in public, in front of the paying customers, and the refs should maintain possession and control of them--not "equipment managers."

Funny how the Pats scored all those points AFTER the issue came to the fore! Apparently under-inflation didn't help them, but once the PSI was properly adjusted they scored like crazy!

Hmmm.

[R B Garr]

109. Yeah, we should all just shut up about the rules. Did you see the texts

from the employees which directly coincided with all the cheating allegations against the Pats?

And you are the only one focusing on the Colts and that game, except there was an MSNBC question today: Did the Pats cheat their way into the Super Bowl. The Pats didn't cheat just for that one game. Hmmmm, indeed.

[MADem]

113. Did you see where Scooter Libby's lawyer lied in the report, and said they only interviewed that

guy ONCE? One more time--the LAWYER, the one who is Dick Cheney's pal, who wrote the report--LIED about his access to a witness. In a report where he's placing blame!! How rich!

So Im supposed to get all excited about this guy's "interpretation" of events?

Rules are fine--but if you want rules to be obeyed, put the responsibility for enforcement outside the locker room. The balls need to be weighed in front of the spectators, in the stadium, not in locker rooms. The balls need to be held by the refs, not squirreled away.

The Colts had some deflated balls too--you didn't hear about that, though, because Scooter Libby's lawyer didn't put it in his little report.

I read the texts--they sounded like joking to me.

That's not how people conspire, seriously.

[R B Garr]

120. Apparently rules aren't fine if you're a Patriot or Patriot fan.

Last edited Thu May 7, 2015, 12:24 AM - Edit history (1)

This is why the cheating pays off. You can discount what everyone else says as long as the Win is in your column. That's the goal, and it's apparently worth it.

Keeping the cheating as a he said/she said competition is so worth it -- so long as there is a Win to stash, quite the Rovian tactic.

edited to correct a word.

[MADem]

124. Well, you've got your mind made up. Have a nice night! nt

[opiate69]

94. You appear to be unaware of the concept of "professional sportsmanship"....

But then, you're from Massachusetts, so most likely a Pats fan... which makes this a redundant statement.

[MADem]

96. I appear to be unimpressed with "Guilt by innuendo" especially when delivered by

Scooter Libby's lawyer.

[R B Garr]

102. From the report: ". the inappropriate activities of McNally and Jastremski involving the

release of air from Patriots game balls," the report said.

Texts between two employees about deflating the balls, which apparently doesn't matter as long as these cheating activities give a favorable advantage likely to result in a win, which is all that matters in the long run.

[MADem]

106. I don't think Scooter Libby's attorney's opinion is the Word of God.

No evidence--just "feelings."

The texts read to me like people joking--not people conspiring.

And they scored double-digits AFTER the balls had air added....so, whatever. Funny how the Colts don't make excuses!


http://www.patriots.com/news/2015/05/06/statement-new-england-patriots-chairman-and-ceo-robert-kraft-wells-report

“What is not highlighted in the text of the report is that three of the Colts’ four footballs measured by at least one official were under the required psi level. As far as we are aware, there is no comparable data available from any other game because, in the history of the NFL, psi levels of footballs have never been measured at halftime, in any climate. If they had been, based on what we now know, it is safe to assume that every cold-weather game was played with under inflated footballs. As compelling a case as the Wells Report may try to make, I am going to rely on the factual evidence of numerous scientists and engineers rather than inferences from circumstantial evidence.
“Throughout the process of this nearly four-month investigation, we have cooperated and patiently awaited its outcome. To say we are disappointed in its findings, which do not include any incontrovertible or hard evidence of deliberate deflation of footballs at the AFC Championship game, would be a gross understatement. In addition, given our level of cooperation throughout the process, I was offended by the comments made in the Wells Report in reference to not making an individual available for a follow-up interview. What the report fails to mention is that he had already been interviewed four times and we felt the fifth request for access was excessive for a part-time game day employee who has a full-time job with another employer.

Amazing how Scooter Libby's lawyer made it sound like they only interviewed that guy ONCE, when in fact, they interviewed him FOUR TIMES.

Sing it, Taylor Swift!

[R B Garr]

135. Oh, I see you're relying on a statement from Robert Kraft

No wonder no one else has said that is significant or even factual. Like a fox guarding the hen house, lol.

[stevenleser]

51. The texts are pretty damning. The Patriots are refusing to allow the texters to be interviewed...

... all the while trying to claim they are cooperating with the investigation in every way.

Those are not the actions of an innocent team.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. And Brady refused to turn over his cell phone records to excuplate himself.

[stevenleser]

55. Makes one glad Brady didn't make it to the White House. GOP would be blaming Obama for deflategate

after this report.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

58. LOL

[mythology]

76. I'm guessing his texts wouldn't have been exculpatory

I'd wager they would have been incriminating. Brady was up to his eye brows in this. There is no way that two low-level employees did this on their own.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. " There is no way that two low-level employees did this on their own. "

That's what the Wells Report found and Brady failing to turn over his related communications only reinforces those findings.

[MADem]

118. No they didn't refuse--that's a lie. They made McNally available FOUR TIMES.

Wells LIED about that. http://www.patriots.com/news/2015/05/06/statement-new-england-patriots-chairman-and-ceo-robert-kraft-wells-report

“What is not highlighted in the text of the report is that three of the Colts’ four footballs measured by at least one official were under the required psi level. As far as we are aware, there is no comparable data available from any other game because, in the history of the NFL, psi levels of footballs have never been measured at halftime, in any climate. If they had been, based on what we now know, it is safe to assume that every cold-weather game was played with under inflated footballs. As compelling a case as the Wells Report may try to make, I am going to rely on the factual evidence of numerous scientists and engineers rather than inferences from circumstantial evidence.
“Throughout the process of this nearly four-month investigation, we have cooperated and patiently awaited its outcome. To say we are disappointed in its findings, which do not include any incontrovertible or hard evidence of deliberate deflation of footballs at the AFC Championship game, would be a gross understatement. In addition, given our level of cooperation throughout the process, I was offended by the comments made in the Wells Report in reference to not making an individual available for a follow-up interview. What the report fails to mention is that he had already been interviewed four times and we felt the fifth request for access was excessive for a part-time game day employee who has a full-time job with another employer.

Of course, Wells is a buddy of Dick Cheney. He defended Scooter Libby. I'm guessing lying comes easy to him.

[mythology]

125. Truly an unbiased source there

What, couldn't they find Tom Brady's mom to be a character witness of what a swell fellow he is?

Given the fact that this isn't the first time the Patriots have cheated, I don't see why anybody should believe what they have to say.

[MADem]

127. And Scooter Libby's lawyer, investigating a team owned by a strong Democratic donor,

one who has been vocal in his support for POTUS, is any less biased? That guy is DICK CHENEY's good buddy.

Come on--gotta do better than that.

[spanone]

16. Long-awaited deflate-gate investigation implicates Pats, Tom Brady

Ted Wells' investigation into the possibility that the New England Patriots were involved in deflating footballs for the AFC championship game has found that it's more likely than not some of the Patriots were guilty.

"Based on the evidence developed in connection with the investigation and summarized in this Report, we have concluded that it is more probable than not that New England Patriots personnel participated in violations of the NFL Playing Rules and were involved in a deliberate attempt to circumvent those rules," the report, released Wednesday, said.

With that line on Page 121 of the massive report, it again questions the validity of the Patriots' great dynasty, which included a Super Bowl victory this past February, the fourth for coach Bill Belichick and quarterback Tom Brady.

Brady was specifically implicated as well.

"Based on the evidence, we also have concluded that it is more probable than not that Tom Brady was at least generally aware of the inappropriate activities of McNally and Jastremski involving the release of air from Patriots game balls," the report said.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/long-awaited-deflate-gate-investigation-implicates-pats--tom-brady-173408354.html

[lpbk2713]

8. I thought Deflate Gate was all over?

Or is it the NFL's version of Benghazi?

[ProfessorGAC]

12. ^^This^^

This is an "oh brother"!

[MineralMan]

15. Steroid use, over time, will have that effect, for sure.

[Blue_Tires]

18. Shouldn't surprise anyone

[R B Garr]

20. You're right, it's not surprising.

And furthermore, it's the Pat's fans who are the haters. Anyone who does not bow to their greatness whether or not it is achieved through cheating shall be hunted down and forced into submission.

[Malraiders]

21. The NFL's credibility should be called into question after their

coverup of the dangers from injuries due to concussions on the playing field.

OH and remember that O'Qwell Jackson denied bring the issue about the ball to anyone after the interception.

[MADem]

115. Better to argue about this, a report where the lawyer writing it lied about access to a witness!

And failed to mention that the COLTS had under-inflated balls at half-time, TOO....!!!

But hey--the lawyer who wrote that "Guilt By Insinuation" screed got Scooter Libby off.

No wonder Condi Rice wanted to be in charge of the NFL.....

[R B Garr]

137. That lawyer also served as Treasurer to Democrat Bill Bradley's campaign.

What does that have to do with Brady cheating?

from Wiki:
Wells also served as the national Treasurer to Democrat Bill Bradley's presidential campaign.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. From the report

[GusBob]

29. LOL even the trainers cant stand the d-bag

hilarious!!

[GusBob]

30. *ahem* someone upthread is claiming "no evidence"

Last edited Wed May 6, 2015, 04:15 PM - Edit history (1)

these texts are pretty damning. I expect serious discipline

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. And I told that gentleman that "more probable than not" is a legal term...

And I told that gentleman that "more probable than not" is a legal term and it is the standard the NFL has used for the past seven years to impose sanctions.

[GusBob]

35. Try this:

your precious team cheats and your star QB is a fucking cheater

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. I don't have a dog in this fight but I love a good scandal./NT

[GusBob]

41. same

I like to see how their fans handle it, see if any of them accept the findings, or continue to deny, deny, deny.

Loss of credibility is harsh

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. Those text messages are damning...

Their fans are crying about "circumstantial evidence"...


Isn't a Patriot sitting on death row on circumstantial evidence.

[bigtree]

64. that'll be the most intriguing part of it all here at DU

...so much arrogant push-back from Pat fans. Any question about the character or actions of the team or teammates is greeted with bull about jealousy of their wins.

I didn't watch the SB, btw. Once my Ravens fall away, I'm done. I actually think consistent winners like the Pats, make the best opponents and make games worth watching.


report: https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/investigative-and-expert-reports-re-footballs-used-during-afc-championsh.pdf

[joeybee12]

45. Um, this sin't evidence...

It shows they're pissed about Tom doing something...not once did they say they deflated them after the fact...it's his job to inflate the way the QB likes them...you're too stupid to deal with...ignore.

[GusBob]

48. I sin't too stupid!!!

lolz

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. Now I have a dog in this fight...

Maybe Joeybee is Tom Brady Sr.

[GusBob]

52. He does seem to be taking this personally

poor guy

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. I really couldn't care less...I am a huge sports fan but it doesn't affect my life.

But I am watching ESPN and they are treating it as if they were around for the Black Sox scandal...

To quote Joe Biden "this is a big f--ing deal".


LOL


P.S. In one of the texts the equipment management refers to himself as "The Deflator".

[Shrike47]

71. Yes, it is evidence. Not sufficient or persuasive evidence, to you, but evidence.

And yes, I'm another attorney. You are throwing around a term of art here and using it incorrectly.

By the way, if Brady refused to produce his own e-mails, they can be presumed to implicate him.

[LittleBlue]

57. Wow, that is absolutely damning

No way to explain those

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. In another text the equipment manager refers to himself as "The Deflator".

[LittleBlue]

61. Wow, seriously? The penalty for this might be unprecedented

Caught twice now. Ouch

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. The guy that put me on ignore implied I lied when I said Brady didn't cooperate...

Res ipsa loquitur:

Similarly, although Tom Brady appeared for a requested interview and answered
questions voluntarily, he declined to make available any documents or electronic information
(including text messages and emails) that we requested, even though those requests were limited
to the subject matter of our investigation (such as messages concerning the preparation of game
balls, air pressure of balls, inflation of balls or deflation of balls) and we offered to allow Brady‟s
counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive
materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady‟s telephone or other electronic
devices. Our inability to review contemporaneous communications and other documents in
Brady‟s possession and control related to the matters under review potentially limited the
discovery of relevant evidence and was not helpful to the investigation

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/investigative-and-expert-reports-re-footballs-used-during-afc-championsh.pdf

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. ...

During the offseason McNally and Jastremski exchanged the following texts in which McNally referred to himself as “the deflator”:

McNally (4:37:16pm): You working

Jastremski (4:37:53pm): Yup

McNally (4:39:40pm): Nice dude....jimmy needs some kicks....lets make a deal.....come on help the deflator

[Approximately eight minutes later.]

McNally (4:47:15pm): Chill buddy im just fuckin with you ....im not going to espn........yet

(The investigators note these messages were among those they were unable to discuss with McNally due to the refusal of counsel for the Patriots to arrange a follow-up interview with McNally.)

[MADem]

70. That sounds like a couple of guys fucking with one another.

It's not evidence, and it's not suggestive of anything other than gallows humor.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

73. Then why didn't Brady offer his e-mails and texts to exculpate himself.

Similarly, although Tom Brady appeared for a requested interview and answered
questions voluntarily, he declined to make available any documents or electronic information
(including text messages and emails) that we requested, even though those requests were limited
to the subject matter of our investigation (such as messages concerning the preparation of game
balls, air pressure of balls, inflation of balls or deflation of balls) and we offered to allow Brady‟s
counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive
materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady‟s telephone or other electronic
devices. Our inability to review contemporaneous communications and other documents in
Brady‟s possession and control related to the matters under review potentially limited the
discovery of relevant evidence and was not helpful to the investigation

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/investigative-and-expert-reports-re-footballs-used-during-afc-championsh.pdf

And why didn't the Patriots make the equipment manager available for further interviews ?

As noted, there was a significant exception to the cooperation provided by the
Patriots. Although we requested a follow-up interview of Jim McNally after our initial
interview, counsel for the Patriots refused our request. We offered to conduct the interview at
any time or location that would be convenient for McNally, and explained—both in writing and
in-person during other meetings—that our follow-up questions would be limited to subject
matter directly relevant to the investigation that was developed following our initial interview
with McNally. McNally was one of the earliest Patriots personnel interviewed by our
investigative team and a number of important follow-up questions had arisen based on
subsequent interviews and information discovered after our initial interview of McNally.
Counsel for the Patriots, however, declined to produce McNally, and communicated an
unwillingness even to advise McNally of our request for a follow-up interview. We do not know
definitively whether McNally was, in fact, informed of our request. The investigative process
would have benefited from further questioning of McNally on certain topics, and we believe that
the actions of the Patriots and their counsel in this regard are inconsistent both with the club‟s
public pronouncements of full cooperation with the investigation and its obligations under
Section 2 of the Policy on Integrity of the Game & Enforcement of Competitive Rules.3

[MADem]

80. Probably because he didn't want someone in Scooter Libby's attorney's office

copying the private material on that phone and selling it to the Enquirer. I'd trust a friend of Dick Cheney as far as I could throw him, too.

They made the McNally guy available, and then they wanted to go back to the well. How many more "follow ups" would they do until they were satisfied? If the Patriots wanted to be real assholes, they wouldn't have made him available at all.

Funny how no one is making an issue of the COLT's balls inflation issues. Doesn't fit the narrative, I guess.


There's no 'there' there.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. So the whole investigation and its findings are of no moment ...

So the whole investigation and its findings are of no moment and the National Football League defamed Tom Brady for what?

Cui bono?

[MADem]

83. A hundred and eight days worth of billable hours...?

Who knows?

Cui bono, indeed? Who ever heard of Dick Cheney's buddy/Scooter Libby's attorney before now?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. ESPN covering it hard like CNN, FAUX, ans MSNBC would cover a political scandal.

WoW

[mythology]

25. It's a big deal that the Super Bowl winner cheated

It further stains the team's on the field accomplishments. Especially when the star quarterback is likely complicit.

New England fans obviously aren't going to acknowledge it (like they never remember that David Ortiz failed a drug test when criticizing the Yankees for Alex Rodriguez), but there is a pattern of cheating within the organization.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. I don't have a dog in this fight but it's the biggest sports scandal since Pete Rose's gambling.

WoW

[pipi_k]

26. Yeah, and this guy says

just about every quarterback messes with game balls in some way...



http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/21/leinart-says-every-quarterback-tampers-with-the-ball-except-one/



In any event, we all know what happened after halftime when "properly" inflated balls were brought back on the field in that AFC championship game against the Colts.

Poor Tom Brady just couldn't handle properly inflated footballs and went on to lose in pathetic fashion to the Colts.







OMG if only they could have kept playing with those deflated footballs!! The Pats could have beaten the Colts by 90 points!!!

[frylock]

134. completely irrelevant..

check the timestamps on those texts. This was happening all year. What was the score of the Divisional Championship against the Ravens again?

[Cali_Democrat]

28. Take away their rings. They were probably cheating all season long.

I feel bad for Pats fans.

Nobody outside of Mass will ever give them credit for any of their super bowl victories.

Spygate and now this.

[Cali_Democrat]

56. Why the personal insults?

It's not my fault the team you like has a history of cheating and gets almost no respect outside of New England.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. Here's the report:

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/investigative-and-expert-reports-re-footballs-used-during-afc-championsh.pdf

[mythology]

78. Because that's all there is left for Pats fans

This report is clear that the evidence is strongly in favor of the Patriots cheating yet again.

[AgingAmerican]

31. USA Today headline:

Tom Brady and the New England Patriots cheated their way to a Super Bowl

There will be an asterisk next to this Super Bowl for eternity.

I'm curious what the punishment will be this time? Lost draft picks, I presume.

[KMOD]

33. likely suspension for Brady.

The report concludes that Kraft and Belichick were likely unaware.

[GusBob]

36. I'm guessing a year off for Tom

[KMOD]

37. I don't know if it will be that harsh,

but I'll try to hide my glee if it is.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. ESPN is covering it like the cable news stations covered Monicagate.

WoW

[AgingAmerican]

38. It is a sports thing

...so that's not too surprising

[trumad]

40. Probable...LOL

[madinmaryland]

79. Too bad joeybee isn't around to defend his football god!!

[KMOD]

42. Shady Brady and Bill Belicheat

I'm sorry, I just have to

[youtube]

[/youtube]

[El Supremo]

68. Great! I've never seen this.

[KMOD]

123. It's one of my all time favorites.

[U4ikLefty]

136. Bookmarking for later.

thx

[LonePirate]

62. No wonder this country is so screwed up.

This ridiculous and insignificant story is receiving far too much coverage - far more than it deserves. Our priorities in this country are so out of whack right now.

[trumad]

86. We can multi-task

[Skittles]

140. sports in general receives far more coverage than it deserves

[edbermac]

74. "Probable?" "Probable??"

And it's probable that Obama is a Muslim terrorist who will put all Christians into concentration camps.

And it's probable that Hillary is a lesbian involved with the Illuminati.

And it's probable that hubby Bill had hundreds murdered while Governor of Arkansas.

And it's probable that the US government will take military control of Texas this summer with Operation Jade Helm 15 and take away all our gunz.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

75. "More probable than not " is a specific legal term

"More probable than not", "preponderance of evidence,", "more likely than not" are specific legal terms for a plaintiff to prevail in civil court, ergo:

To the non-lawyer, the money quotes from the Ted Wells report suggest a mere probability that cheating occurred. But the specific terminology used by Wells actually indicates a belief that the evidence satisfies one of the most common standards used in a court of law.

“More probable than not” equates to a “preponderance of the evidence,” the standard that applies in most civil lawsuits. It means that the evidence makes it more likely than not, in the opinion of the investigator, that “New England Patriots personnel participated in violations of the Playing Rules and were involved in a deliberate effort to circumvent the rules,” and that “Tom Brady . . . was at least generally aware of the inappropriate activities.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/06/more-probable-than-not-carries-important-legal-meaning/

preponderance of the evidence
n. the greater weight of the evidence required in a civil (non-criminal) lawsuit for the trier of fact (jury or judge without a jury) to decide in favor of one side or the other. This preponderance is based on the more convincing evidence and its probable truth or accuracy, and not on the amount of evidence. Thus, one clearly knowledgeable witness may provide a preponderance of evidence over a dozen witnesses with hazy testimony, or a signed agreement with definite terms may outweigh opinions or speculation about what the parties intended. Preponderance of the evidence is required in a civil case and is contrasted with "beyond a reasonable doubt," which is the more severe test of evidence required to convict in a criminal trial. No matter what the definition stated in various legal opinions, the meaning is somewhat subjective.

[KamaAina]

126. In civil court? So are the Dolts bucking for money?

Or draft picks?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

141. It's the burden of proof that the NFL has established .

It's the burden of proof that the NFL has established that has to be met before they impose sanctions.

[MADem]

98. Hey, the author of that opus is a Friend Of Cheney!!!!

He got Scooter Libby off!

[R B Garr]

130. He also represented Johnson & Johnson...

They make baby products. What does that have to do with Brady cheating?

[DonCoquixote]

101. is anyone surprised

The Patriots embody the worst US value: that as long as you win, it is okay to cheat and be an arrogant (censored) about it.

[Generic Brad]

104. Cheaters never win

Unless they are the Patriots.

[bullwinkle428]

112. Q: "Tom Brady - how do you manage to sleep at night?"

A: "With my gorgeous Brazilian supermodel wife, on a bed made of a mountain of money with my 4 Vince Lombardi trophies atop the posts!"

(Points for anyone who identifies the reference!)

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

114. Quelle surprise

Of course I'm biased for obvious reasons.

[nilesobek]

122. Seahawk homer here

who thinks this scandal had little impact on the Super Bowl. Its just a game and even though my high hopes for the Seahawks were dashed against the rocks, I believe all these teams stretch the rules as far as they can one way or another.

I am curious how long this was going on last season, if true.

[Jamaal510]

138. It feels like bad karma

how since the chickenshit call in the Tuck Rule game, the Pats have gotten suspected and/or caught cheating more than once yet have gotten no more than slaps on the wrist. After the Tuck Rule, I was so mad. Brady and company went on to win multiple super bowls and they will walk into the sunset as winners. Meanwhile, my team is barely climbing out of joke status after a decade since then...

[Skittles]

139. gee, no f***ing sh**