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Tue May 8, 2012, 04:01 PM

On the issue of draft-dodging: I don't fundamentally object to it.

I only object to it when it is done by people who later become warmongers. Not that warmongers aren't already bad enough, but it adds an additional layer of creepyness.

As far as I'm concerned no one needed to go to Vietnam. I don't see how anyone would have been morally obliged to. Furthermore, I wouldn't blame anyone currently in the military for going AWOL.

That said, I admire Mohammed Ali for taking a stand and passively resisting instead of leaving the country, which he surely could have done. But I realize that it's not for everybody.

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Reply On the issue of draft-dodging: I don't fundamentally object to it. (Original post)
redgreenandblue May 2012 OP
Warren Stupidity May 2012 #1
Tierra_y_Libertad May 2012 #2
TedBronson May 2012 #14
bluesbassman May 2012 #19
murielm99 May 2012 #3
WingDinger May 2012 #4
rfranklin May 2012 #5
stevenleser May 2012 #15
redgreenandblue May 2012 #7
pinboy3niner May 2012 #10
frazzled May 2012 #6
redgreenandblue May 2012 #8
southernyankeebelle May 2012 #11
Zalatix May 2012 #12
frazzled May 2012 #17
Zalatix May 2012 #21
retread May 2012 #9
GoneOffShore May 2012 #13
RagAss May 2012 #16
braddy May 2012 #18
TheKentuckian May 2012 #20

Response to redgreenandblue (Original post)

Tue May 8, 2012, 04:10 PM

1. object? I wholeheartedly and enthusiastically support it.

But indeed, as you say, if you refused to participate in the rape and pillage expeditions of the 60's you really don't get to propose more of the same for the 2010's.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #1)

Tue May 8, 2012, 04:14 PM

2. You, me, and this guy.

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable love-of-country stance, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."

Albert Einstein

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #2)

Tue May 8, 2012, 06:24 PM

14. This quote always irritated me...

 

... as Einstein's home country, from which he was forced to flee, was liberated by those he apparently despises.

Easy to bash, until you need one...

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #2)

Tue May 8, 2012, 08:38 PM

19. Huge fundamental difference between those who joyfully march and those who serve.

I believe Albert understood that too.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Original post)

Tue May 8, 2012, 04:19 PM

3. During the sixties, everyone I knew

was trying to get out of the draft.

I can't understand why all of a sudden anyone who enlists has become a hero. I know some of these kids. There is nothing heroic going on there. Some of them are nice enough, they just don't know what they want to do with their lives yet.

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #3)

Tue May 8, 2012, 04:23 PM

4. When the Rethugs were attacking public emps, we almost called all cops heroes.

 

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #3)

Tue May 8, 2012, 04:24 PM

5. Many of us were trying to get into the National Guard but only the lucky and the connected got in...

 

like George Bush Junior.

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Response to rfranklin (Reply #5)

Tue May 8, 2012, 06:28 PM

15. Not only that, he went into an enlisted boot camp and graduated an officer.

I went to the same basic training. None of the folks who graduated with me became lieutenants at graduation and certainly none of us were sent to pilot training.

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Response to murielm99 (Reply #3)

Tue May 8, 2012, 04:29 PM

7. I wasn't around during the sixties (way too young)

but I know that if they put a draft in place today for some bullshit war there wouldn't be anything that could make me go. I'd probably just be non-compliant. They can take me to boot camp in hand-cuffs but they can't make me participate in any drills or pay attention to anything anyone says to me.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Reply #7)

Tue May 8, 2012, 04:54 PM

10. Ali's original sentence was 5 years in prison

He appealed, and his conviction was reversed by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Years ago, some of us in my VN veterans' group would get invited every year to speak to a HS class taught by someone who actually DID do prison time for refusing to report when he was drafted. He spent at least 18 months in prison, if not the full 2 years he was sentenced to.

Our group of VN combat vets had enormous respect for that teacher. He accepted the consequences, and sacrificed, to honor his principles.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Original post)

Tue May 8, 2012, 04:27 PM

6. My brother was a conscientious objector

My husband's best friend was, too. My husband didn't need to: his number was too high to be worried about the draft. No one I knew personally (I was in high school and college during Vietnam) went, mostly because of student deferments. My best friend considered emigrating to Canada.

I'm not sure who you're talking about with regard to "draft dodging" in the 60s and then becoming warmongers. Dick Cheney? Believe me, none of the people I knew who by hook or by crook avoided the war ever became warmongers.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #6)

Tue May 8, 2012, 04:30 PM

8. Dick Cheney, Ted Nugent, come to mind.

A couple of Democrats too perhaps.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #6)

Tue May 8, 2012, 06:19 PM

11. If they went to college they were able to get out of the draft. If they were able to get

 

into the National Guard then they were able to stay out of war. That was the way it was. When the draft came in I don't think it was fair and equal. As usual the poor kids got stuck going. They didn't have a way of getting out. But I tell you this much if this country goes into a WWIII there will be a draft and there better be no exemptions. Period. Everyone should be equal and have the opportunity to die for this country especially the rich who have led the great life. The first who should line up are all the Bush sons' and of course all those strapping Romney boys who have lived a life of reilly.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #6)

Tue May 8, 2012, 06:21 PM

12. Rush Limbaugh got out of the draft with "polynoidal cysts". Lots of other examples.

 

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #12)

Tue May 8, 2012, 06:36 PM

17. You're naming a handful of recognized assholes

I'm talking about the hundreds of thousands of young men who in one way or another got out of the draft and who DIDN'T turn into war mongers. This is a kind of stupid and ahistoric thread. And it bears no relationship to today, because there is no draft, and hasn't been one for many decades.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #17)

Tue May 8, 2012, 11:57 PM

21. Your argument has no bearing on the OP.

 

There are people in power today who are in favor of war but who dodged the draft. They may be few but they have power. Mitt Romney is a chickenhawk. Dick Cheney was one of those people - got draft deferrments, but then mired us in the Iraq War II.

Here's a long list of 'em. These people are problematic because some of them want to send us into some kind of war or another.

http://www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks/?sort_list=1

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Response to redgreenandblue (Original post)

Tue May 8, 2012, 06:22 PM

13. In 1971 I moved to England to avoid the draft.

Moved back in 1981.

I had CO status when I left but found that I couldn't deal with working in the geriatric ward of the local mental hospital.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Original post)

Tue May 8, 2012, 06:29 PM

16. My father was a medic in the US Army in WW II...

The Vietmam draft ended when I was 16...but he made it very fucking clear to me that if I was ever drafted he would ship my ass to Italy to go live with his cousins.

I will never forget that.

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Response to RagAss (Reply #16)

Tue May 8, 2012, 08:31 PM

18. Your father was probably drafted, 93% of those who served in the Army of WWII were.

Think draftees for WWII, and volunteers for the Vietnam War.


The numbers for war dead are roughly 70% draftee in WWII, and 70% volunteers in Vietnam.

In 1970 22% of the US army were draftees, and unlike WWII the Navy did not have to draft at all, and the Marines not a whole lot.

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Response to redgreenandblue (Original post)

Tue May 8, 2012, 09:01 PM

20. I'm perfectly fine with it until the objector turns chickenhawk then no mercy

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