Obama Levels Cheap Shot At Unions - Again

[WillTwain]

Last edited Mon Apr 20, 2015, 04:33 PM - Edit history (1)

Oops, he did it again.

Fielding a question about TPP today, the President could not resist taking a pot shot at unions. in describing the opposition coming from within his party, he said wryly regarding unions, they are always against trade.

What a cheap shot. Unions are not against trade, they are against unfair trade. The president knows better than to demean union's sentiments on trade. These guys are experts on the economy and understand trade and its effects better than anybody. He would never talk to any other group in the party with such disdain. They have an interest like every other group in the Democratic party.

It would be like saying, women, well they just always complain about equal pay. And some folks, well they just always complain about racism or bigotry. He is calling out labor as complainers when they are concerned about American jobs being lost. Hello, they are called LABOR for a reason. Their sole purpose is American jobs.

Who should we trust on the TPP, the guys with their livelihoods at stake or the guy speaking for Paul Ryan and big business?

http://wegoted.com/shows/hillary-clinton-breaks-silence-on-tpp/

[LittleBlue]

1. Yeah those dumb unions wanting jobs with living wages and stuff

How dare they!

[WillTwain]

2. I could not believe my ears.

Where does this come from?

[whathehell]

4. His Wall Street cronies, maybe?

I don't know, but he's never been very good to the unions who supported his ass

during the campaigns.

[WillTwain]

7. whathehell is with this whathehell?

[whathehell]

14. Well, Will..

I've never thought the president was much of a Democrat, especially on financial

issue. He's good on social issues -- they don't cost anything, after all, but he's

never been particularly good on economics. He's a free trader, and when he's not bashing

unions, he talks a good game, but that's about it.

I've always seen him as more of a Libertarian or a moderate/liberal republican.

He himself said that in the 80's he would BE a Republican...Remember how

he expressed his admiration of Ronald Reagan?....After that, I wasn't terribly

hopeful. I voted for him ONLY after John Edwards, who seemed more progressive,

dropped out.

[WillTwain]

16. Did he really say that about the eighties?

Got a link?

[F4lconF16]

25. Here you are:

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/video/obama-considered-moderate-republican-80s-17973961

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/domestic-taxes/272957-obama-says-his-economic-policies-so-mainstream-hed-be-seen-as-moderate-republican-in-1980s

Edit--the whole statement, in context:

AMA: One issue that Cuban-Americans are worried about is, they believe that you favor a socialist model for our country. Cubans and Venezuelans especially because of what they have gone through. What do you think of that?

PBO: I don't know that there are a lot of Cubans or Venezuelans, Americans who believe that. The truth of the matter is that my policies are so mainstream that if I had set the same policies that I had back in the 1980s, I would be considered a moderate Republican. I mean, what I believe in is a tax system that is fair. I don't think government can solve every problem. I think that we should make sure that we're helping young people go to school. We should make sure that our government is building good roads and bridges and hospitals and airports so that we have a good infrastructure. I do believe that it makes sense that everyone in America, as rich as this country is, shouldn't go bankrupt because someone gets sick, so the things I believe in are essentially the same things your viewers believe in.

[WillTwain]

35. Thanks, stunning.

Who is this guy?

[daredtowork]

204. Apparently someone who fooled everyone who voted for his promise of Hope and Change. :( nt

[BeanMusical]

220. Not gonna get fooled again.

Especially not by Hillary who's not in the same league as Obama when it comes to being a fake populist.

[WillTwain]

323. Hillary may need Bill to sell this one more time.

[HERVEPA]

326. Yeh. Let's have a Republican instead. That's the ticket.

We'll be much better off.

[WillTwain]

328. What does that even mean?

[BeanMusical]

376. It's the General election already?

I must have traveled in time or something.

[merrily]

250. Charter schools and infrastucture loans. Right off the old DLC website.

[ChiciB1]

435. Did Anyone See Rachel Maddow's Show About The VA?

Seems THE KOCHS have been and ARE making progress in "privatizing" it! WOW, I've seen this country screw "we the people" for so long now by Repukes, but NOW it seems THE Democrats are rolling over ONCE AGAIN!

I know there are groups who are trying to organize here and there, pockets of protests but wonder if the "Oligarchy" really cares! TPTB actually seem to be gaining even more control as time goes by.

How much longer will it be before this country wakes up? Our foundation is crumbling each and every day, how long before the bottom falls in? I've been involved as an activist since Viet Nam, and while I understand that compromise from my liberal views is necessary I don't think I've ever been this worried. I think this TPP push from Obama is such a slap in the face to this country and his trend toward dissing Unions has probably broken me completely. I check in here from time to time, I tune in to Thom Hartman and FSTV for the most part and to put it simply... I'm very, very afraid!

Of course there have been times in the past when the rich have ruled, but today we have many more people and far too many people who tell me EVERY SINGLE DAY, that I'm stupid to worry about it. Just ignore everything, be happy! Even my liberal doctor told me last week it will all work out, nothing we can do, I WORRY too much!

And when I talk to 40-50 yr. olds and younger I'm flabbergasted by how little they know and mostly how little they care. We can't go on like this and I think those of us who pay attention are having a very hard time getting through to the people of this country!

Sure, we have nothing to fear but fear itself... too many people are unaware and they HAVE NO FEAR!!

[whathehell]

38. Yes, even I was surprised..I heard it on the radio

and I will attempt to find a link for you.

[CrispyQ]

275. This pretty much sums up the new Democratic party:

"...good on social issues -- they don't cost anything, after all..."

[WillTwain]

278. Time for upheaval

What many need to realize is the Republicans and New Democrats (Third Way) have the same economic goal in mind - recreate the U.S. with a tiny middle-class. Social issues are decoys used to fight for and decide who gains the White House. This explains why social issues are moving forward while labor issues are going backward.

The bottom line is Paul Ryan (Milton Friedman disciple) is pushing devastating policy for the working classes. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, advancing policy for the democrats is Larry Summers. There is very little daylight between these two multi-nationalists. They both view the middle-class as an inefficient relic from a bygone past with huge legacy issues. They aim to correct this "problem" by slashing wages, Social Security, Medicare, etc. What about infrastructure spending? Hell no, that would assume the U.S. has a future. They view a strong middle-class as a major mistake, an historic aberration that needs to be returned to its rightful place. Remember, neo-liberals and neo-cons believe in Thomas Friedman's the flat earth philosophy - we must level the global playing field. In other words, Americans make too much money. That said, we have not hit bottom, yet.

In ten years the cake will be baked. Members of the “extreme left” will gain no satisfaction in saying, “We told you so.”

[ND-Dem]

299. +100

[CrispyQ]

344. 21st Century Feudalism

Lots of serfs, only a few merchants.

The lack of infrastructure spending & increase in toll roads is indicative of how much the 1% wants to invest in America. William Gibson's Sprawl series comes really close to describing our future, imo. Minus the AI. Or with the AI. Interesting idea, huh? Let's give corporations huge amounts of global power & authority & it turns out AI exists & is using the corporate entity to control humanity.

Could it end any worse for us than where we are now?

[WillTwain]

364. It is all preordained,

What many need to realize is the Republicans and New Democrats (Third Way) have the same economic goal in mind - recreate the U.S. with a tiny middle-class. Social issues are decoys used to fight for and decide who gains the White House. This explains why social issues are moving forward while labor issues are going backward.

The bottom line is Paul Ryan (Milton Friedman disciple) is pushing devastating policy for the working classes. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, advancing policy for the democrats is Larry Summers. There is very little daylight between these two multi-nationalists. They both view the middle-class as an inefficient relic from a bygone past with huge legacy issues. They aim to correct this "problem" by slashing wages, Social Security, Medicare, etc. What about infrastructure spending? Hell no, that would assume the U.S. has a future. They view a strong middle-class as a major mistake, an historic aberration that needs to be returned to its rightful place. Remember, neo-liberals and neo-cons believe in Thomas Friedman's the flat earth philosophy - we must level the global playing field. In other words, Americans make too much money. That said, we have not hit bottom, yet.

[whathehell]

342. Agreed..and they've been able to get away with the "social issues alone" agenda

for quite awhile. Hopefully, most of the party is now wising up.

[appalachiablue]

389. My thought on these Gen 80s loving, Gen Reagan loving and Ayn Rand & Milton Friedman

adorers is they can locate to Qatar, Dubai or similar places, once and IF they acquire the $$$ they desire, and the material consumer luxury items they crave. Servants and slaves included, have at it. That goes for others like them. If they fall short money wise, Somalia is a good option. But NOT HERE.

That is Not what this country is about. The US was expressly founded to discourage extreme wealth and power, especially the hereditary form of old. No monarchs, kings or tyrants.

The last entitled European ruler of this land was the Hanoverian King George III of England and the United Kingdom, the one who went mad and had the worthless degenerate sons, 10 of them. In 1781 when we kicked George, his generals and admirals out at Yorktown, tyranny time was over.

Sic semper tyrannis

[WillTwain]

392. Just returned from a TPP rally. Not a millennial or gen-xer to be found, average age probably 60.

Sometimes you want to say why am I fighting for generations that will not fight for themselves.

[JDPriestly]

22. Where were his walking shoes when labor was in trouble in Wisconsin?

Left on the shelf, I do believe.

Lots of things I like about President Obama. His failure to support labor is not one of them.

[whathehell]

36. Precisely. I was very disappointed in him for that, and it said a LOT, in my view..

He's not, and never has been, in my view, an economic populist -- You really can't be if you don't support unions.

[Go Vols]

48. +1

[WillTwain]

37. Harvard probably did not have a class in breaking your back for a paycheck.

He doesn't get it.

[msongs]

187. "comfortable Pair of shoes..."- he hasn't found any in 6+ years nt

[Lifelong Protester]

209. + a gazillion!!!

[Omaha Steve]

43. 50-50

He never put on his comfortable shoes to walk a picket line.

Didn't interfere with the window sit down strike.

Didn't work to get EFCA passed.

His NLRB has been doing outstanding work for all workers in it's jurisdiction. New quick vote law took effect Tuesday 4-14-15.

Get the idea? EFCA still pisses me off.

[WillTwain]

46. EFCA was his promise. I feel for Hillary.

[merrily]

248. Not to worry. There's always Diebold or whoever owns that franchise now.

If she's meant to be President, the 1% will find a way. I have every confidence in them to be able to make it happen.

[appalachiablue]

396. Yes Diebold or another e-vote corruptor unfortunately.

[whathehell]

154. Okay..

but I guess that's not good enough.

[Jim Lane]

172. Glad to see you mention "comfortable shoes" -- that was the first thing I thought of.

Maybe TPP includes some provisions that will facilitate the import of comfortable shoes. Maybe that's what Obama's waiting for. Right now he can't afford them, poor guy.

[WillTwain]

374. Golf shoes are plenty comfortable. I know he owns them.

[merrily]

245. OS Googling sit down window strike didn't help me.

Can you please say a bit more about it so I can try again?

[Omaha Steve]

252. Obama Embraces Chicago Factory Sit-In: Symbol of New Wave of Activism

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-dreier/chicago-factory-sit-in-a_b_149510.html

Posted: 01/09/2009 5:12 am EST Updated: 05/25/2011 12:55 pm EDTPosted: 01/09/2009 5:12 am EST Updated: 05/25/2011 12:55 pm EDT

Peter Dreier Become a fan
E.P. Clapp Distinguished Professor of Politics, Occidental College

Since Friday, 240 members of the United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America (UE), a small but feisty union that has always been in the progressive wing of the labor movement, have displayed uncommon courage. They have illegally occupied their Chicago factory after their employer abruptly told them that it was shutting down the plant.

Equally impressive, President-elect Barack Obama, by quickly endorsing the workers' protest, showed the kind of bold leadership that progressives have been hoping for, but didn't expect to see so soon. Indeed, Obama's statement puts him ahead of Franklin Roosevelt, who didn't embrace worried workers' escalating demands until after his inauguration in March 1933, when a quarter of the workforce was unemployed.

The workers began their sit-in on Friday, after their employer, Republic Windows and Doors, closed the factory with only three days notice. The company management told the workers and their union, UE Local 1110, that the Bank of America had canceled Republic's line of credit, making it impossible to stay in business -- or even pay employees the severance and vacation pay they'd earned. The company immediately terminated the workers' health insurance.

The BofA said that the cancellation was routine business practice, caused by Republic's cash flow problem in the wake of declining sales in the nation's housing construction downturn.

FULL story at link.

[merrily]

253. Thanks. I saw that when I googled but he was not President yet then, so

Last edited Sat Apr 18, 2015, 08:59 AM - Edit history (3)

I didn't think that was the strike you meant.

ETA: Don't know if it means anything at all, but I just happened to notice that the author of that article is at Occidental College, which Obama attended for 2 years, before transferring to Columbia U.

And, it was a strike in Chicago, where Obama lives and where Rahm thought his future dream job lay.

[ND-Dem]

301. yes, the republic doors & windows occupation was december 2008; obama assumed the

presidency January 20 2009.

would have been very bad timing to immediately blow off labor, especially in deep recession. he saved that for later.

[merrily]

249. P.S. I would not have expected him to walk a picket line, but

he sure gave us the impression he intended to. However, where was his advocacy? Wisconsin leaps to mind.

And then, there was the US Post Office.

[Mnpaul]

97. and he was even worse

when they supported a different candidate in the primaries. This is when I realized he doesn't really support labor.

[hifiguy]

166. Truth. nt

[Enthusiast]

223. He fooled us again?

[WillTwain]

375. Two party system leaves no option. Fooled or not he got all our votes.

[whathehell]

3. Yes, it WAS a cheap shot..I wonder how much $$ he took from the unions when campaigning?

He didn't get it ALL from Wall St.

[WillTwain]

5. I do not get his disdain for the very people that got him elected.

He has a long history of getting his digs in on unions. Like I said, no other group would he dare disrespect like this.

[whathehell]

9. Well, most union workers, excepting those in Sports & Entertainment, aren't rich

and don't have an Ivy League education.

Do you know his administration employs more graduates from Oxford and Cambridge than

they do from ANY public university in the US?

There's a certain snobbish elitism to him, I think.

[WillTwain]

11. Father Knows Best

Seriously, i cannot get over his constant belittling of unions.

[whathehell]

24. Yeah, it's shitty..

but he has no more campaigns to finance, so I guess he feels more comfortable

showing his true colors.

[WillTwain]

42. What about the party as a whole?

[whathehell]

67. To be honest, Will, I don't think he cares..

I've always wondered about him..He never seemed that "political" to me. I've always

wondered if the presidency wasn't just an "opportunity" for him. His background,

except for his stint as a community organizer, wasn't particularly political.

I think we'll learn a lot more about the "real" him when he leaves office.

[WillTwain]

73. HIs actions speak loudly about who he cares about. Not the working class.

[merrily]

246. He still has to raise money for his Presidential Library, but

the Clintons might help him with that.

And, if TPP passes, it just might be the Buckingham Palace of Presidential Libraries.

[WillTwain]

372. Rahm - mayor of Chicago

It is all ok.

[AngryAmish]

17. But most union workers make a good wage.

They get to live with dignity.

And they want to do away with that.

[WillTwain]

26. For what they do, the pay is OK - no better than that.

[merrily]

251. Yes, but non union wages are worse.

That guy who raised the wages of all his workers to 70K and got such great publicity?

I don't trust him.

He said he was hoping to find capitalist solutions to income inequality. Sure. Now. But, when the issue blows over, buh bye.

BTW, I don't even trust the term "income inequality." Wealth inequality is a far more dramatic issue than a few execs making over a million a year in income. The discussion began with how much of the total wealth of the US is in a few hands and it somehow morphed into income inequality.

Everyone can hope for a raise, but re-distribution of wealth is a whole 'nuther thing.

[whathehell]

33. Of course...The unions really "made" the middle class from the forties until the eighties

America had the largest middle class in the WORLD during the sixties, as well

as the highest number of college grads.

But the One Percent doesn't need a large middle class, and, in fact, I think doesn't wants one.

It would be too dependent on government entities, like good public schools, and

an affordable health care system, and think about it -- The One Percent doesn't really need

those things -- They can easily pay for their kids privates schools and private healthcare

so why should they care?...I think their vision is a return to the Two Tier Society

of the Uber Rich, a small middle class of professionals (even the rich need doctors and lawyers) and

a majority of peasants (us) who will work for subsistence wages.

[WillTwain]

44. He is on board fully with the Larry Summers model.

[merrily]

254. Obama hired Summers, knowing what havoc repeal of Glass Steagall had caused this country and others,

by 2008, so, of course, he's on board with sexist, Third Way Larry Summers.

Alan, Greenspan, Larry Summers and Bubba lobbied the hell out of Congress to pass that repeal bill (aka Gramm, Leach, Bliley).

There's a pattern. It's not Bubba, it's not Obama, it's not Hillary. It's New Democrats/Third Way/DLC/No Labels philosophy and it was Bubba and Hillary who spread that old time religion gospel at home and overseas.

[WillTwain]

264. Imagine the closed door meetings between Obama, Emannuel and Summers - laughing at us.

Carrrying on about how lucky the rich are to have Obama. They are gleeful that so many will follow the pied piper anywhere he goes.

[Mnpaul]

108. The one percent does need a large middle class

They would make even more money if people had more money to spend. They would also benefit if that wealth was created here. The economy is slow due to flat wages and rising prices. Like Warren said, we know how to make our economy work well for everyone, we just need to follow proven principles instead of using those that benefit a few.

[whathehell]

145. No, if they did they would support policies that support one.

They did at one time, if only to have a consumer base for their products. Now, with the

global economy, their consumer base is worldwide.

[Mnpaul]

184. A good portion of the world can't afford their products

This point was made during the Edwards campaign. They were speaking out on the closing of a Frigidaire plant. The laid off workers can't buy your product any more and the workers in Mexico don't earn enough to buy your product. Who is going to buy your product? You also lose the multiplier effect. Workers with good wages spend the money and it trickles through the community. If they drive down wages worldwide they will continue to lose consumers. It may create quick profits in the short term but long term it is a loser.

[merrily]

255. I've often thought of that, and don't know the explanation, but I agree with with whatthehell.

but, I did hear on Charlie Rose this week that there's a new millionaire in China every week and that's an even bigger market than we are.

We plan for tomorrow, maybe ten years out. They've had experts planning long-term for like forever.

Just one example: Oliver Stone's Forgotten History of America mentioned a certain memo, so I googled it. It was a state department memo that was top secret in the 1950s, but has been declassified.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Memo_PPS23_by_George_Kennan


Among many other things, it stated that Europe was going to have to form a union. Check it out
http://europa.eu/about-eu/eu-history/index_en.htm

The Bohemian Grove/Bilderburg crowd and many others have been at this sort of thing a very long time.

I have full confidence in the 1% to be able to know what they need and to get 'er done.

[whathehell]

322. Maybe that's why

we should sell them here, in Europe and in other First World countries?

[happynewyear]

64. Retired Union member here

and, no, I never made a lot of $$$ but I had a job that had good benefits.

I still pay dues today btw.

[merrily]

263. Big hug!

[WillTwain]

265. Congatulations, another union success story.

[PowerToThePeople]

41. elitism is a poison

Management, office staff, engineering, sales, executive staff, and government's only need for existence is as a support structure for labor. If they fail in this role they need to be replaced with staff that will do their job. They are labor's servants.

Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

Abraham Lincoln

[whathehell]

45. I don't disagree..

and thanks for that wonderful quote from Lincoln.

[WillTwain]

47. I thought he fancied himself as Lincoln. What a pile.

[PowerToThePeople]

65. i will go a step further and claim that

This nation's support structure has comitted treason by neglecting this nation's labor in favor of becoming modern day slave traders in less powerful areas of the globe. They are not only enemies of this nation's workers, but of every working person of the world.

[zeemike]

152. And the truth of Lincoln's statement should be obvious.

But somehow they have convinced us that it is the other way around, that capital creates wealth and that labor is just a leach on capitalism that needs to be controlled.

The answer to our problem is worker owned industry...cut out the middle men who produce nothing but rake in all the profits created by labor.

[PowerToThePeople]

163. I am in complete agreement. n/t

[WillTwain]

373. Honest Abe, Dishonest Barack

[StarzGuy]

216. It never ceases to amaze me what...

...becoming a rich 1%'er does for one who never worked a union job

[Enthusiast]

224. He seems to be absolutely heartless.

A little Greenspan/Ayn Rand in there?

[merrily]

256. Greenspan, Summers, potaytoe, pohtahto.

And Geithner was Kissinger's protege....

It's all one big happy family that fear of armed revolution requires we perceive as the Hatfields and the McCoys.

And even the need for our perception is being phased out by Homeland Security, militarized police, the NSA, cameras on every other street and so on.

[WillTwain]

268. Obama has been the greatest because he fooled so many.

Bill was damn good, too.

We are so busy hating Cheney, but the fact is, there is not much difference between any of our leaders for the last 35 years - referring to the top guys and gals. There are still a fair number of great progressives like Bernie.

[sabrina 1]

19. Lots of dollars, now he betrays them. That is why we can never listen to what they SAY

in campaigns, the only way, and even this isn't fool proof as it seems when some get to DC there is something in the water there, but look at their RECORDS, what they did when they were not campaigning.

That is what people are looking at now regarding the TPP.

Already there are calls to oust people like Wyden, who I used to have so much respect for, but if he goes along with this, he deserves to be replaced.

[WillTwain]

39. Sadly, Hillary will pay for this distrust.

[Mnpaul]

114. Look at Obama's cabinet

Then check out the list of DLC members. Team Hillary moved in the minute he was elected. Hillary deserves the distrust. Her cronies are the source.

[DrKZ]

131. I agree with you

i was pretty unnerved when he decided on Rahm Emanuel and then Arnie Duncan ... and then Clinton as secretary of state ... Hilary Clinton does deserve this sort of mistrust ... I agree with you completely

[sabrina 1]

134. I'm more concerned about all the Republicans he placed back in power in his cabinet. Democrats

don't elect Dems to that losers, Republicans, are put back in power by the Dem they elected.

[merrily]

266. Not only in his cabinet, but on Commissions.

And, before anyone pipes up to tell me he has to have a certain number of Republicans on Commissions, I know about that, but it's not technically true. They just can't all be registered Democrats.

But on the Postal Commission at one point, he appointed a Republican when he could have appointed a Dem and he appointed the Repubicans who were among the worst enemies of the Postal Commission and that did not have to happen, either.

[WillTwain]

270. Also, the dems he appointed are hand picked shills for the most part.

Do you trust the leadership to pick good Supreme Court justices?

[merrily]

272. You know his commission picks but not that he said he was like a 1980s moderate Republican?

[WillTwain]

274. One hand washes the other. It is a poisoned society of group think.

[merrily]

282. That bears no relevance to my question.

[merrily]

422. I shudder to think what happens when Ginsburg retires.

Many assume the first ACA decision said Obamacare as a whole was constitutional. It did not. It said the individual mandate was just another federal income tax. However, it also said the federal government could not withhold all Medicaid from a state that refused to expand Medicaid. It was a bizarre case. Voting with Republicans on the Medicaid portion of that decision were Breyer, nominated by New Democrat Clinton, and Kagan, nominated by New Democrat Obama.

I was happy to see Sotomayor side with Ginsburg, but she was the only one. I suspect Sotomayor and Ginsburg have actually known poor people.

I have been holding my breath that Cass Sunstein doesn't wind up on that bench.

[KoKo]

347. ......!

[merrily]

259. Many members of team Hillary were in his campaign, as was pointed out during a 2008 debate.

The moderator asked Obama something like how he was the candidate of change, since so many Clintonites were working for him.

Hillary interjected with something like, "Yes, I'd like to know that too, Barack.

Obama said something like, I plan on having you work for me, too, Hillary.

And he got hit with charges of sexism.

[still_one]

168. An intelligent person would find out Hillary's position on TPP before causing her or any Democrat

Running for office to automatically "pay for it"

The unions did that in the eighties by helping Reagan get elected. Those were the Reagan democrats, and they have been struggling since

[merrily]

261. And New Democrats like Hillary haven't helped them a whole lot.

An intelligent person would not rely on New Democrat (sic) campaign rhetoric.

When Bubba was Governor of Arkansas, Hillary sat on the board of Walmart. (No clue how they handled the potential conflict of interest issues, but I have no doubt they have some explanation. Others on the board say Hillary spoke up about some of "her" issues, hiring women and the environment, but not for WalMart's workers, even when they struck.

And, at that time, Walmart was the poster child for lousy employers.

[WillTwain]

273. They claim she was on our side fighting at Walmart - she failed.

She better find a better spin.

[merrily]

284. You expressed sympathy for Hillary at least twice on this thread.

What's really going on?

[WillTwain]

293. It is sympathy for the fact she will pay for Obama's words. He made her bed, seems a bit shitty.

[merrily]

425. Looking at only this one thread, I see inconsistencies in the opinions you express.

That makes me uncomfortable.

[WillTwain]

427. Hillary troubles me but I am holding out hope.

Maybe it is her inevitability and the only hope we have. I am extremely leary and have been hard on her. Honestly, I know better but want to believe there is a path. Her statement on the TPP erased all the good she did sounding like Liz.

Bernie is my guy.

Obama's loose tongue will make things difficult for Hillary. It has nothing to do with support for Hillary, merely a fact that sucks for her.

Like the conversation.

Nostrovia

[merrily]

419. Hillary and Wal-Mart

Mrs. Clinton’s six-year tenure as a director of Wal-Mart, the nation’s largest company, remains a little known chapter in her closely scrutinized career. And it is little known for a reason. Mrs. Clinton rarely, if ever, discusses it, leaving her board membership out of her speeches and off her campaign Web site.

Fellow board members and company executives, who have not spoken publicly about her role at Wal-Mart, say Mrs. Clinton used her position to champion personal causes, like the need for more women in management and a comprehensive environmental program, despite being Wal-Mart’s only female director, the youngest and arguably the least experienced in business. On other topics, like Wal-Mart’s vehement anti-unionism, for example, she was largely silent, they said.

Her years on the Wal-Mart board, from 1986 to 1992, gave her an unusual tutorial in the ways of American business — a credential that could serve as an antidote to Republican efforts to portray her as an enemy of free markets and an advocate for big government.

But that education came via a company that the Democratic Party — and its major ally, organized labor — has held up as a model of what is wrong with American business, with both groups accusing it of offering unaffordable health insurance and mistreating its workers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/20/us/politics/20walmart.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[merrily]

258. Sadly? Um, ever read about Hillary and Walmart?

Do you think Hillary would have done differently if she had been in the Oval Office between 2009 and now?

You wouldn't be pranking us, would you?

[A Simple Game]

118. There may be something in the water or air and it's most likely money.

I have said for years that our Representatives and Senators should stay home and only go to Washington DC a few times a year for ceremonial events. There is no longer a need for them to be away from their constituents watchful eyes. Make them work from their home town offices and I guarantee that the local paper or radio station will have it on the 6:00 O'Clock news when a lobbyist or anyone else meets with them. Let them use local people for staff and not professional politicians. Millions could be saved not having to pay for their housing, food, and transportation.

Let them vote over the internet or by phone and is there a reason a vote has to be done in an hour? Let it take a week or a couple of days. And stop wasting time naming post offices, that should be a local issue.

Let the President live in the White House and hold down the fort, let the rest of them face the voters on a daily basis.

[Enthusiast]

225. Yeah. I used to have respect for Wyden and Obama.

No longer.

[merrily]

243. No, but he got all he really needed. Remember, we only see the hard money numbers--and even they

were a billion. They made a concerted effort to be independent of their "traditional" sources of money, namely unions and the hoi polloi and they succeeded.

Running for POTUS is expensive, no doubt. But, there is also tons of free coverage. There has never been a study that says you have to match your opponent dollar for dollar.

More to the point, there's never been a study that says a New Deal or populist Democrat has to match his or her Republican opponent dollar for dollar.

[TheKentuckian]

6. Pitiful and gross. Good old Raygun minus the Southern Strategy strikes again.

[WillTwain]

8. Can he at least try to hide his hatred?

Geez.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. The new democrats do not like

labor, this is hardly news.

[WillTwain]

27. Nobody is claiming this as news, It needs to be reported on, anyway.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. My apologies, but let me clarify

labor does not like HRC. This is hardly a secret among the people I talk to regularly. It probably is surprising to some of the local hard core fans

Further clarification: Labor knows they are not liked, to put it mildly, by conservative neo liberals, that includes the POTUS, his economic team, and the HRC campaign.

Getting those folks excited will be a hard thing to do

[WillTwain]

51. I have been trying to let DUers know about the perilous position democrats are in.

There is no guarantee they will endorse a democrat - unprecedented.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. I would not quite go that far, YET.

and that is the big qualifier, YET.

Or at least none is willing to go that far even off the damn record.

But I agree with you.. it is unprecedented.

[WillTwain]

57. They have threatened openly already to walk away.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Not the locals

And I talk with them regularly. Though they have local fish to fry.

[WillTwain]

61. Trumka has clearly threatened for 2016.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. But trumka needs the majority of presidents from local labor councils

to go YYAAAYYY boss.

This is one of the last working democracies. in the country. I do not expect that to become official until the national meeting of the AFL-CIOs, and then you have the SEIU to contend with, which broke with the AFL a few years back. Though I expect them to go there faster than the AFL-CIOs by the way, or AFSCME.

I do not discount what Trumka said. I think he can get the necessary votes, and I think there is an absolute danger that the Labor Councils will turn very local and abandon national politicians in droves.

But until those steps absolutely happen, and even after they happen, those same national politicians will continue to ignore the 11 percent of the American work force. Never mind that they have more power to turn people to voting than their absolute numbers say they should.

With the 15 and a Union movement, this is why that scares the ownership class, labor might turn those horrific numbers around... hug your SEIU for that, most labor councils are not participating in that mess. (Too much inside baseball)

This is precisely the political calculus at play. (And I should go back to the fracking articles, but that is another story).

[WillTwain]

82. Trumka has agreement from all the unions to move forward together.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. Take my word on this, or not

but Trumka does not dictate huge policy issues like this one.

These decisions are taken by vote

http://www.aflcio.org/About/Exec-Council

edit to add to the constitution

http://www.aflcio.org/About/Exec-Council/AFL-CIO-Constitution

[WillTwain]

90. Ok, maybe Trumka is speaking about something else.

Thanks, I will go back and check it out further.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. He is floating it

but they need to take a vote.

Labor is a democracy.

He is running it up the flagpole, like the good politician he is. (A lot of this IS politics)

[merrily]

288. That was a very big and specific statement you made in reply 82, to retract this quickly.

Will, I am really starting to wonder.

[WillTwain]

292. Check this story out. He says they signed an agreement.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/28/afl-cio-wont-endorse-any-democrat-with-obama-econo/?page=all

[merrily]

426. An agreement to announce at the same time, not to endorse the same person.

Timing can have an impact, though.

That unions even entered an agreement like that says something.

However, be very careful of the Washington Times.

[DrKZ]

127. No he doesn't

The two unions that are close to HRC for some reason is the AFT Weingarten and AFSCME for some reason ... but I do think that state and local unions may decide to focus on those races because enough is enoug

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. There are good reasons actually

the ATF knows that they need somebody in DC to help them... and the AFSCME is made of municipal workers. This is not strange. And even their organizers acknowledge they will have a hell of a time getting the base enthused.

[happynewyear]

58. +1,000

Welcome back nadinbrzezinksi!!

[merrily]

262. +1 a unique voice on DU

[DrKZ]

119. I speak to people in labor all the time

And i recall the unions favored the president to Clinton and I know that there is talk among the rank and file of just working state and local campaigns ...
Watch what happens with labor particularly if Bernie Sanders runs (with perhaps the exception of the AFT and AFSCME) ... if HRC or a republican becomes president every single one of labors advances over the 20th century will be completely erased.

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. There is absolute talk of just working local races

absolutely.

[QuestionAlways]

177. I am an officer in an AFL-CIO union

and my membership and I support Hillary 100%, just not officially yet.

[merrily]

271. working families ticket, or doesn't that matter to you?

[redruddyred]

123. this is not making it easier for them to get elected imo

EVERYONE I talk to agrees that wages are too low. everyone.
were they to shift their focus to labor issues they would find tremendous support.
there's a nod in the party towards egalitarianism, but most of the ppl who work for it come from posh backgrounds.
the ppl who get a paycheck anyhow.

[Skittles]

12. he no longer needs votes

that is glaringly obvious

[WillTwain]

21. Hillary may end up paying for his blatant disrespect.

[Skittles]

96. she already has

[FiveGoodMen]

13. He was never on our side.

Like Hillary, he's a plant.

[WillTwain]

23. I Call Them Stealth Republicans

[Enthusiast]

226. Groomed for the job of stealth and betrayal.

Seeing this didn't move him enough to change his loyalties. Heart of stone.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Fred Sanders]

294. Yes, Obama is clearly a secret Republican! Thanks, you made me laugh!

[WillTwain]

302. Nothing funny about it.

He calls himself an 80's Republican - You know, a Reagan Democrat.

Got hoodwinked?

[Fred Sanders]

305. You made me laugh again! Hyperbole is fun!

[WillTwain]

308. Man, keep following him off a cliff. It is your life you are ruining.

[whathehell]

380. Fred lives in the UK, he doesn't

have to worry so much

[whathehell]

55. I've always suspected that..

I voted for him (five times if you include his senate run) but not long into

his first year in office, I had begun to suspect a certain fraudulence.

To put it caustically, I think we were "sold" a bill of goods with him

I think of him as a Trojan Horse -- a Black Democrat, and a very personable

one at that -- Who would have expected a secret Republican?

[840high]

89. With sadness I agree.

[Cha]

193. BooHoo.. you have no idea what you're saying. Just a lazy cheap pot shot that shows you haven't

been paying attention. But, need to get on internet boards and lob disingenuous insults.

[KG]

15. the prez is a smart guy. he know which side is bread is buttered.

dem politicos can blow off unions these days. coz who else they gonna vote for?

[WillTwain]

18. When they finally walk away, he will be a big reason why.

[sabrina 1]

28. The unions have threatened to walk away from the Dem party right before the last presidential

election. They were very disappointed in how they were treated by the Dem party. I know they formed a coalition with other big organiations, eg, Social Security Advocates eg, because they saw the writing on the wall. Airc, this coalition met and raised millions of dollars to start working on what they would do if the Dem Party continued its rightward slide,

This certainly won't help.

The President appears to be getting desperate over this awful bill due to the intense opposition to it.

In some ways, that is a good sign.

[WillTwain]

34. Unions built America,the party and Obama, yet he talks down to them like this.

It is like a man having an affair - complete dishonor.

[n2doc]

260. They walked away in 1980

And started digging their own graves.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/09/1107835/-Remembering-Reagan-s-Sweet-Little-Lie-to-the-Air-Traffic-Controllers

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/08/31/us/teamsters-vote-to-endorse-reagan.html

[RobinA]

411. This Rank and File

is probably going to vote for no one for President. State and local only.

[sadoldgirl]

20. Nothing new here.

We have seen how "he walked with the unions" in Wisconsin,
when he was needed. May be he was always a Third Way
member; if not, he certainly has become one.

The NDC is certainly not in love with the workers. Since he
is in his last term, he does not have to hide his attitude
towards the unions.

[WillTwain]

30. Same old song and dance.

[DeSwiss]

29. Whatever did you expect from a 80s' Republican?

- K&R

[WillTwain]

32. Oh My God

That is the first timeI heard him say that.

[DeSwiss]

63. You want more truth?

- I don't know it can be a shock to the system, if you're not used to it. But I highly recommend it anyway because living in lies sucks hard.

Pay close attention starting around the 7:50 mark:

http://vimeo.com/20355767

[jonno99]

212. Well, The general consensus seems to be that money & power corrupt

regardless of the political party. And from what I can see, this propensity is endemic to the human condition - regardless of locale, color or creed.

I'm sorry, but as I've gotten older, I've become very much the pessimist - as I don't see any improvement coming in my lifetime...

[DeSwiss]

217. When you see things clearly you're not pessimist, you're a realist.

The capitalistic monetary system we live under can't serve the people and it can't be made to do so because it is inherently flawed. It will work tolerably well in the beginning when there is plenty to go around for everyone. But that is not the case anymore as everyone knows.

Capitalist systems don't survive because the greed of the (all) participants overwhelms it in the end. It corrupts even its victims the same way one's own cells can become cancerous and kill its host.

And fiat monetary systems such as we have, are nothing less than a Ponzi Scheme of the first water. It's considered a legal practice only because the government is the one operating it, ostensibly for the ''public good.'' Right.

Unless and until enough people finally realized that they cannot make this flawed, corrupted, capitalist system do what they want it to do, and abandon it entirely, then we may have some reason for hope.

However, if we remain stoically by supporting it, albeit with our eyes closed to the truth all around us then whatever happens later, we will surely deserve. But not our children. It will be ''we'' who have condemned them to poverty and probably worse, because they had no choice in the matter. We do.

- If we continue to succumb to our fears of change, then they'll have even fewer choices later......

Resource-based Economy

[merrily]

277. For me, it played only to 2:58, then stopped. Can you give us a brief clue?

By the way, Brandeis was correct about wealth and democracy. See Reply 251.

[DeSwiss]

369. I checked it and it's working for me......

...so you may want to check it later. Or you may want to just skip to the good parts around 7:50 where the campaign promises (lies) start spilling forth.

Summarily, you're correct in the assessment about incompatibility of wealth and democracy being the underlying theme here. It is a more comprehensive look at almost all the issues we discuss here daily concerning the weaknesses in our system of governance. Except that instead of talking head pundits, it uses academics who've built their careers studying, researching and teaching in the political sciences. As well as footage from campaigns, debates and news conferences to illustrate the inherent and sometimes blatant contradictions in our form of government.

- In particular the current president's predilection for lying his ass off. And doing it well.

[WillTwain]

371. Worked

[merrily]

420. Thanks so much, DeSwiss!

[cui bono]

85. Yeah, sad.

I've had to post that several times on here when people try to convince me that Obama is a liberal.

[Octafish]

50. More than a small political worldview, that clip.

It eerily reflects the "Raised on Reagan" influences of Corporate McPravda, Wall Street on the Potomac, and lAckademia.

Makes me sad for him, but outraged for what the future could have been.

[DeSwiss]

68. Yeah, me too.

- That's why I'm George:

[Enthusiast]

227. Same here.

[redruddyred]

130. this is pure politics tho

'socialist' is still being thrown around as dirty word.
I'm a self-hating one.
we need to change the dialogue.
can't do it when they're yelling much louder.

[DeSwiss]

171. I try to eschew all labels.....

...as they tend to constrict understanding, rather than elucidate upon it. But in the end, no monetary system (no matter what the kind of government is that's operating it), will work for long. Because monetary systems are inherently flawed and incompatible with Nature.

- And anything that is incompatible with Nature, fails in the end.

[bvar22]

40. President Obama has no love for Organized LABOR.

Remember back during Campaign 2008 when Obama played a Union Friend?


*

*Promised to "immediately Renegotiate NAFTA to protect our American jobs

*Promised to "put on comfortable shoes" and walk the line with strikers


There have been other insults to LABOR during this Administration,
but the one that hurt me the most happened in 2010 in Arkansas.

The Arkansas Democratic Primary of 2010 was a heart breaking eye opener for the Grass Roots and Organized LABOR. We were given a Look Behind the Curtain,
and it wasn't very pretty.

[font size=3]We did EVERYTHING right in Arkansas in 2010.
We did EXACTLY what the White House asked us to do to "give the President Progressives in Congress that would work with him."[/font]

We organized and supported Democratic Lt Governor Bill Halter, the Pro-LABOR/ Pro-Health Care challenger to DINO Obstructionist Blanche Lincoln's Senate seat.
Halter was:

* Polling BETTER against the Republicans in the General,

*was popular in Arkansas in his OWN right,

*had an Up & Running Political machine,

* had a track record of winning elections (Lt. Governor)

*Had the full backing of Organized LABOR and The Grass Roots activists

*was handing Blanche her Anti-LABOR ass

...and we were WINNING!

Guess what happened.

The White House stepped in at the last minute to save Blanche's failing primary campaign with an Oval Office Endorsement of The Wicked Witch that Wrecked the Obama Agenda who was actually campaigning at that time as the one who had killed the Public Option!!!

Adding insult to injury, the White House sent Bill Clinton back to Arkansas on a state-wide Campaign/Fund Raising Tour for Blanche,
focusing on the areas with high Black Populations, and bashing Organized LABOR and "Liberals" at every opportunity.

For those of us who had worked hard to give President Obama Progressive Democrats who would work with him, it was especially difficult to watch his smiling Oval Office Endorsement for DINO Blanche Lincoln which played 24/7 on Arkansas TV the week before the runoff Primary election.

White House steps in to rescue Lincoln’s Primary Campaign in Arkansas

"So what did the Democratic Party establishment do when a Senator who allegedly impedes their agenda faced a primary challenger who would be more supportive of that agenda? They engaged in full-scale efforts to support Blanche Lincoln.

* Bill Clinton traveled to Arkansas to urge loyal Democrats to vote for her, bashing liberal groups for good measure.

*Obama recorded an ad for Lincoln which, among other things, were used to tell African-American primary voters that they should vote for her because she works for their interests.

*The entire Party infrastructure lent its support and resources to Lincoln — a Senator who supposedly prevents Democrats from doing all sorts of Wonderful, Progressive Things which they so wish they could do but just don’t have the votes for.

<snip>

What happened in this race also gives the lie to the insufferable excuse we’ve been hearing for the last 18 months from countless Obama defenders: namely, if the Senate doesn’t have 60 votes to pass good legislation, it’s not Obama’s fault because he has no leverage over these conservative Senators. It was always obvious what an absurd joke that claim was; the very idea of The Impotent, Helpless President, presiding over a vast government and party apparatus, was laughable. But now, in light of Arkansas, nobody should ever be willing to utter that again with a straight face.

Back when Lincoln was threatening to filibuster health care if it included a public option, the White House could obviously have said to her: if you don’t support a public option, not only will we not support your re-election bid, but we’ll support a primary challenger against you. Obama’s support for Lincoln did not merely help; it was arguably decisive, as The Washington Post documented today:"

<much more>

http://www.salon.com/2010/06/10/lincoln_6/

After the White House and Party Leadership had spent a truck full of money torpedoing the Primary challenge of a Pro-LABOR Democrat for Lincoln's Senate seat, the Party support for Lincoln evaporated for the General Election, and as EVERYBODY had predicted, Lincoln lost badly giving that Senate seat to a Republican virtually uncontested in the General Election.

Don't you find it "interesting" that the Party Establishment and conservative Power Brokers would spend all that money in a Democratic Primary to make sure that their candidate won, and then leave Their Winner dangling without support in the General Election?

Many Grass Roots Activists working for a better government concluded that the current Democratic Party Leadership preferred to GIVE this Senate Seat to a Big Business Republican rather than taking the risk that a Pro-LABOR Democrat might win it, and it was difficult to argue with them.
This was greatly reinforced by the Insults & Ridicule to LABOR & The Grass Roots from the White House after their Primary "victory" over Organized LABOR & the Grass Roots in the Arkansas Democratic Primary.

When the supporters of Pro-LABOR Lt Gov Bill Halter asked the White House WHY they had chosen to throw their full support behind Lincoln at the last minute, rescuing her failing campaign, the only answer was ridicule and insults.

Ed Schultz sums up my feeling perfectly in the following clip.
http://crooksandliars.com/heather/ed-schultz-if-it-wasnt-labor-barack-obama-
(Please view the video before accusing me of stretching the truth)

So what did the White House gain by Beating Down Labor and the Grass Roots in the Arkansas Democratic Primary?
We don't know.
The White House has never responded to our questions with an explanation, only insults.
To date, the White House has refused to answer our questions,
or issue an apology for their taunts and ridicule of Organized LABOR and the Grass Roots in the Arkansas Democratic Primary.

[WillTwain]

53. I sense he loathes them. He drips with contempt when he speaks of them.

[whathehell]

167. He's spoken of progressives like that as well. n/t

[merrily]

286. Halter was collateral damage.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12776064

[AtomicKitten]

49. Ugh. That's repulsive.

[yallerdawg]

54. Obama explains why union leaders formally oppose Free Trade agreements.

If it cost you one job in your union, how do you justify that to the rank and file?

He is not dissing unions -- he is explaining their opposition, and how he understands their positions.

Obama is intending to create more jobs, higher paying jobs, and more economic security all around.

From the White House now:

WORTH A SHARE: 5 ways trade is linked to our economic strength

1. Made-in-America exports are a growing pillar of our 21st century economy:
Last year, we broke the record in American exports for the fifth year in a row, selling $2.35 trillion in goods and services abroad – more than ever before.

2. The more we sell abroad, the more jobs we support here at home:
In fact, U.S. exports supported 11.7 million American jobs in 2014, an increase of 1.8 million since 2009.

3. Those jobs tend to pay better wages than non-export related jobs:
In fact, businesses that sell their products abroad pay up to 18% more than businesses that don’t.

4. Ninety-five percent of the world’s potential consumers live outside our borders:
To ensure our economy keeps pace with China and the rest of the world, we have to ensure our entrepreneurs have access to the fastest growing markets so they can expand here at home.

5. High-standard trade helps level the playing field for American workers:
Enforceable protections for our workers and environment in trade agreements like TPP will help our workers compete.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/trade

[elleng]

66. Thanks for the explain, yaller.

Useful, in the face of so much hostility here. And necessary, to understand this intelligent man.

[redruddyred]

139. obama can be intelligent, and yet completely wrong

I believe he believes he's right but he's also from UChicago, aka goldman sachs feeder school sucking off milton friedman central.
I don't know enuff abt the TPP to have a strong opinion but am bothered that it's such a big secret. why are we not allowed to know? that doesn't bode well.

[elleng]

156. So the fact that he taught at U Chicago LAW SCHOOL suggests he followed Milton Friedman's economics?

That's a bit of a stretch. He also became a community organizer, on the south side of Chicago.

AND the University of Chicago law school established a legal services project at the Cook County Jail to help inmates with their legal matters. (I worked there.)

Unfortunately secrecy's part of negotiating these agreement. It's good that congressmembers know enough about it to raise serious questions.

[redruddyred]

164. yes but likely has connections with the academic community there.

I bet that's how they got their in with him.
anyhow, anyone who has received an 'elite' education, or any sort of post-secondary schooling at all has been brainwashed in free market economics. most departments do not tend to be v balanced I find.
I DID UNDERGRAD THERE

[whathehell]

341. Not necessarily, but they don't suggest he's a progressive democrat either..

Last edited Sat Apr 18, 2015, 01:38 PM - Edit history (1)

He needed the community organizer job for his resume, especially if he was going

to run for anything as a democrat. You mention that the UC Law School established

a legal services project at the Cook County Jail, but you don't say whether Obama was

a part of it. Even if he was, it doesn't guarantee that he is, or ever was, a progressive dem.

He himself has said that "In the Eighties" he'd have been considered a Republican.

[uponit7771]

235. The hostility is FUD ... notice the off hour recs on these half truth threads are..

..unusually high

[bvar22]

359. What do you mean by "off hour recs"?

...do you mean that when Working People[ get home from their jobs that they are more Liberal than those who just sit on DU all day?

[WillTwain]

360. Nice

Are you saying some people work after 5:00 p.m. We are not China - please stop the hyperbole.

[WillTwain]

69. Pure Bunk: He will create good jobs all right in China. What does he know that Trumks doesn't?

[DeSwiss]

80. WHAT. A. FUCKING. LOAD.

[Go Vols]

95. I was making around 34 bucks an hour in '95

and about that much in benefits when I retired.

How much are these folks making that have broken the record for US exports?I would guess 50-60 an hour per your post.

[Fred Sanders]

124. Of course you realize the Instant Outrage Based On One Sentence Out of Context has already begun?

Nice try attempting to being reason and context and historical fact into what passes for debate on comment threads.

[yallerdawg]

186. Sometimes it's like being in a giant cave...

and all you hear is an ECHO ECHO echo...

Bill Maher is coming on. He gets me.

[treestar]

242. I was just being amazed we are back to ODS

After the days of Hillary DS.

They wait for something they can jump on.

[WillTwain]

304. How his actual words are not his actual words is a hell of a concept.

The Pied Piper.

[Fred Sanders]

306. Ever heard of "context" and "ad hominem" logical fallacies, because some have?

Remember when Obama was against Keystone pipeline the unions were all in favor of?

That is the kind of thing that "proves", for some, that Obama hates unions, right?

Rather silly conclusion.

[WillTwain]

309. You do not get the big picture at all. He loves and needs you.

[Fred Sanders]

310. I get your viewpoint, I get you completely....and you are completely wrong. Trust Obama? Or not?

Say it.

[WillTwain]

314. What do you "completely" get about me? I cannot read your mind.

Say what?

[WillTwain]

311. Here is a little more context for you pal.

This is from a story in the Washington Examiner,

President Obama again compared Republicans in Congress to workers going on strike, telling reporters Tuesday that GOP lawmakers had no more right to shut down the government than factory workers had to walk off their jobs.

The president made similar remarks at an event in Rockville, Md., on Thursday. He even referenced that event in his remarks Tuesday.

Both times, he compared GOP lawmakers to hypothetical striking workers. He argued those workers would be rightfully fired if they tried to shut down a plant to extract concessions from management.

In each case, Obama seemed unaware that the worker activity he was describing was a classic organized labor strike, a federally protected activity under the National Labor Relations Act. The law was signed by President Franklin Roosevelt in 1935 and is considered one of the era’s major liberal victories.

Will you ever admit you are wrong about the president?

[Fred Sanders]

313. Washington Examiner? You win! No more kicking a boring thread.....Pal.

[WillTwain]

315. Thank you for conceding. Pal. I actually thought you were too proud to admit Obama is rude.

[jeff47]

170. They promised the same stuff with NAFTA

Didn't quite turn out the way they promised.

Now they promise it with TPP....golly, I wonder how it will turn out this time!

[QuestionAlways]

183. BS absolute BS

[TheKentuckian]

194. Anyone stupid or naive enough to buy these bullshit, well worn, and nonsense lies

needs to spend some time in the corner with the dunce cap on.

How many times can reasonable people eat the same shit?

Just trotting out this same tired garbage says all that needs to be said, how fucking stupid do these folks think we are?

[Populist_Prole]

203. Those were the same EXACT talking points used to push NAFTA and GATT

Damned near word for word.

I simply cannot believe the arrogant glibness in which their trotted out.

Stunning.

[Enthusiast]

228. We heard the same LIES leading up to NAFTA.

Examine the trade deficits.

[uponit7771]

234. the stupid facts CONSTANTLY get in the way of me being needlessly pissed at Obama!!!!

/ sarcasm

[WillTwain]

279. Many call him a charlatan.

[Scuba]

56. Another disappointment from the most disappointing POTUS ever.

[WillTwain]

60. It is like he is cheating on us, then laughing about it in public.

[geek tragedy]

98. "most disappointing president ever"=absurd hyperbole of the week. nt

[Scuba]

102. You must have expected very little good from BHO's administration, kinda like how I felt about Bush.

[geek tragedy]

116. Ooh, I spoke to soon. Can't get much more absurd than Obama=Bush nonsense.

And, for the record, I and the vast majority of Democrats think he's done a pretty good job. Saved the economy from Bush's wrecking ball, got us out of Iraq, Cuba agreement, passing comprehensive health care reform (something every other President had failed at), DADT repeal, arguing against DOMA, Iran agreement, climate change agreement with China, Dodd-Frank, two excellent supreme court nominees.

Last word is yours--not in much of a mood to waste time with "Obama=Bush" dead enders.

[F4lconF16]

132. Not what he said at all.

He expected Bush to screw him, therefore he wasn't disappointed.

He didn't expect Obama to say and do things like the OP states, and other things that have been mentioned in the thread, therefore he was disappointed.

[geek tragedy]

185. Well, they also suggested that the only way

someone would avoid being intensely, overwhelmingly, fanatically disappointed with Obama is if that person had Bush-like expectations.

Still ridiculous hyperbole and absurd on its face.

[Enthusiast]

229. +1 You nailed it.

[Cha]

415. Dead enders is right. They refuse to acknowledge all the Progress our Dem Prez has made but

hate the word "haters". LOL

[PrefersaPension]

430. If you support Third Way Democrats, then just say it.

Most of us are "old school" Democrats, something you apparently have no idea about. When President Clinton signed off on Glass Steagall, that's what really woke me up to these "new" Democrats. I never thought I would live to see the day that the Democratic party would be okay with pulling the ladder up on Americans after they "got theirs." This is serious stuff; nothing to make constant snark about.

You and your ilk are just what the "New" Democrats want; cheerleaders for whatever they propose because they are in charge and you will have their back no matter what. I am not impressed at all with your little club as you have nothing of substance to add.

Your "game" on this blog site is dangerous, immature, and embarrassing to our party.

[ChiciB1]

436. I Find You "LOL" Offensive!

I've agreed with you in the past on issues, but here comes a time when reality should sink in. He has made progress where others weren't able, but he's scaring me a great deal now!

[Cha]

446. They refuse to acknowledge all the Progress our Dem Prez has made but

hate the word "haters". LOL"

Well, I'm not referring to you am I? You acknowledge what Progress the President has made. But, there are some who don't.. they only come to hate. That's who I am referring to.

[WillTwain]

449. Did you watch the clip of him marginalizing unions.

[kelly1mm]

122. I don't know if that is absurd hyperbole. It is not disappointing when R's screw over labor

as that is what we expect. But when D's do it is certainly disappointing. Heck, I am still waiting for his PROMISED renegotiation of NAFTA. What ever happened to that?

I think a case can be made that President Obama may be the most disappointing President ever in that he had such promise and stirred such passion, much or which (certainly for labor issues) has been for naught.

[geek tragedy]

129. For better or worse, TPP is probably the

renegotiation of NAFTA (all three NAFTA countries are in TPP). Whether it makes it better or worse, I am agnostic, since i lack enough information at this stage to form an opinion.

[Enthusiast]

230. It stands to reason that it will cost American workers.

Since, you know, we have higher labor standards, environmental, worker safety and living standards.

There is no way workers in the poor nations will see their wages and living standards jump up to equal ours. Our living standards will take a hit.

Do you really think there will be someone there in Vietnam to enforce new higher standards for worker health and safety? Never in a million years.

There. I have provided you with the necessary information.

[geek tragedy]

291. No I don't but thanks for trying to help. nt

[uponit7771]

236. They love Bush... they hate being wrong about him

[WillTwain]

324. Hyperbole, when over-used, is hyperbolic.

[nationalize the fed]

62. Obama was talking a different talk during the 2007 AFL CIO Democratic debate

Keith Olbermann Hosts The 2007 AFL-CIO Democratic Debate in Chicago

The whole trade segment begins at 18:18

@18:37 Hillary- "NAFTA...Has hurt workers"

@20:22 Keith: "Scrap NAFTA or keep it- Senator Obama"

Obama: "I would immediately call the president of Mexico and Canada...blah blah..."


You have to see this to believe it

more on unions around 60:00

[WillTwain]

72. I am fucking sick of this bull.

[yallerdawg]

78. You all do know TPP includes Obama's NAFTA fixes?

Mexico and Canada are participants in the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

[WillTwain]

83. OK

[DeSwiss]

84. Fixes?

You're priceless!

[BrotherIvan]

325. My eyes almost didn't stay in my head

[WillTwain]

329. Scooby Doo, off with the mask.

[BrotherIvan]

330. It's the new meme going around

Wow. I assumed it would be 21-Dimensional Chess (so much better than 11). Because we've been told to wait and see what's in it before opposing it, now we're being told it's the ponies and rainbows we've been waiting for.

[WillTwain]

332. So, let's all enjoy the German countryside in the lovely trains on the way to Auschwitz.

Can I sit by you?

[BrotherIvan]

333. Uh oh, a Godwin

I just think it's foolish and downright hypocritical to lie to people's faces and try to tell them this deal will "create jobs" and "higher wages". It's Orwellian to say the least. But a reference to gassing in a concentration camp, no.

[WillTwain]

337. I knew it was risky.

Everyone understands it. That has value.

[BrotherIvan]

349. Yeah, I step over the line often myself

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. So tell mey yellerdawg

are they rewriting Art. 17 of the Mexican Constitution to strengthen labor rights? You know they had to write those out due to NAFTA.

I guess you and Hoyt got those talking point from the same place.

[Hoyt]

331. What have they changed in Article 17 of Mexican Constitution?

If I have today's version, this is what Article 17 says. What have they changed, and what does that change do?

Article 17. No one may be imprisoned for debts of a purely civil nature. No one may take
the law into his own hands, or resort to violence in the enforcement of his rights. The
courts shall be open for the administration of justice at such times and under such
conditions as the law may establish; their services shall be gratuitous and all judicial costs
are, accordingly, prohibited.

[nadinbrzezinski]

340. Forgive me 123

http://www.jacksonlewis.com/media/pnc/0/media.2380.pdf

Article 123 of Mexico’s Constitution, entitled “Labor and Social Security,” expressly recognizes and protects employees’ basic inalienable rights including, but not limited to: vacation, overtime entitlement, job stability, maximum work shift, maternity rights, social security rights, salary protection, profit-sharing entitlement, severance payment in case of unfair dismissal, freedom of association (the right to unionize), and collective bargaining rights, including the right to strike.

http://www.nationalemploymentlawcouncil.org/nonmember/agenda_PDFs/2013/Basics_of_Mexican_Labor_Law.pdf

Since nafta strikes still happen, but far less often because the unions have been weakened. So are those coming back? In particular the CTM is very much weakened.

And it gets worst.

The Mexican Congress is set to pass labor law “reform” this week that will be devastating for millions of workers’ legal rights and incomes. Here members of the independent electrical utility workers’ union (SME) demonstrate against the law. Photo: SME.
The Mexican Congress looks set to pass a piece of fast-track labor law “reform” this week that could be devastating for millions of workers’ legal rights and incomes.

The changes both pro-business parties are agreed on would undermine the 44-hour work week by permitting subcontracting and temporary or part-time work for the first time.

Additional changes that would make it virtually impossible to organize or maintain genuine unions or to strike were part of the legislation introduced September 1, but it appears that some of those changes may be withdrawn under pressure.

- See more at: http://labornotes.org/blogs/2012/09/mexico%E2%80%99s-labor-law-changes-undermine-worker-rights#.dpuf

These reforms, with the rest of the pro business reforms, are in preparation for TTP. There is also an extensive energy reform that essentially privatizes PEMEX, or close to it. Education reform that apes NCLB. I could go on.

I am sorry, my mind kept going to the series of articles I had to memorize by heart in HS. My point still stands. TTP will not be good for workers.



You might live in that fantasy, the rest of us are not. What we are seeing in San Quintin is exactly what we expect to see TTP trade zone. You should find out more on this. And you and your friend got your talking points from the same fucking pace.

So go argue with labor. There is a reason why labor trade zone area wide dies not want these types of treaties.

[Hoyt]

343. Forgiven.. So what did they have to change in Article 123? Please try to focus in your response.

[nadinbrzezinski]

352. They started by weakening strike rights

that was a huge one for Ford that got strikes regularly, because they tried (and continue to) not follow the Labor contract fully. They got those about twice every five years, now they are down to one a decade. The rest of the new car manufacturers are making sure to get weak contracts from the get go.

They also made the equivalent of the NLBR not labor friendly but management friendly. The Central de Trabajadores de Mexico, the CTM, it went from the main ally of the PRI during elections to an enemy, almost a dog with mange. They started to play unions one agains the other. Like we have been doing in the U.S. For decades.

The problem Mexico still has (if you are business) is that membership is still pretty high, and then there are the reforms started under Calderon (PAN) but signed under Pena Nieto, that normalize temporary work for the first time in Mexican history. They are going after the full time workers, err associates, that Wal-Mart, among others, wants to make part time so they do not have to pay full rights including the Christmas bonus.

Now if workers in the North American region started to organize across borders....but that is a fully different discussion.

But the reforms, are part of the we are getting ready for TTP, just like they did with nafta. The changes and less rights are a consequence of what these treaties demand. In the U.S. We barely notice because labor is already pretty weak, and the NLBR is nowhere close to the 1950s.

It is no coincidence that the last national strike in the U.S. Happened in 1952. I will not be too shocked if the unrest in Mexico leads to a national strike, or outright revolt. Right now it is simmering, at times flowing out of the vessel, but that pressure is growing. The state is counting on lack of memory, which in Mexico is far less prevalent. When that fails, people go missing. And if you got a troublesome labor leader you dig out all the skeletons and prosecute. Skeletons, that mind you, were put in there in the first place by previous administrations. This is what happened to the head of the national teachers union. No, she was not that squeaky clean, but a lot of that came from previous agreements.

If that fails, people still wake up at the side of the road without a head. Those old tactics are new again.

And when you talk to people in the street...people know. They have no idea of the latest tmz scandal, but they know of these reforms and how it affects them. They also know that the vote (alone) will do squat and have gotten to the same state of zen I have come with US elections. It matters little who occupies Los Pinos...it really does not. The difference is, while some do advocate a boycott of the elections, people know that just voting will get them nothing. They need to do a lot more...it is the last point that people who advocate get out the vote in the. U.S. miss. So no, I really don't give a shit who is in the WH. In the era of citizens united my vote is not going to influence a thing.

Ed spelling

[Hoyt]

353. TPP and NAFTA are responsible for all of that?

[WillTwain]

354. Do you ever listen to the other side? Listen to Trumka and Gerard. They dwarf Oabama's knowledge.

[Hoyt]

357. They are protecting their turf, I get that.. But it's a relatively small turf nowadays.

[WillTwain]

358. What does that even mean? Or prove? This is a much deeper discussion than trite comments.

[nadinbrzezinski]

355. Yes. It is making the country ready for the treaties

and this is part of what the agreement requires. The side agreements on nafta to "protect" labor rights and the environment have never been tested. Nor were the migratory rights.

All this started after nafta. It is part of the new liberal reforms that were also pressed on by the world bank.

By the way, it is called "competitiveness." The latest set are in preparation of TTP and foreign investment.

As I said, in the U.S. people discuss tmz, in Mexico people argue shit like this. I got one of the best views of the educational reform from a taxi driver.

[Enthusiast]

231. That's what we're afraid of.

Just imagine a lowering of labor health and safety regulations and environmental regulation. Even if new rules appear in print there will be no enforcement mechanism.

Why do you think these corporations want this TPP so badly, so they can correct past human rights and environmental abuses? Do you believe these corporations are naturally benevolent? You should give labor history a cursory glance.

Those are the facts, Jack.

[WillTwain]

276. Hackneyed excuses are getting old-yaller.

[sulphurdunn]

70. When Hillary is elected,

labor hating Wall Street Democrats will have elected the last three democratic presidents. They are not some peripheral fifth column. They are the leadership of the party.

[WillTwain]

74. We are tying our own noose.

[a kennedy]

71. Very disappointed in this......d*mn.

[WillTwain]

76. Two more years.

[Scootaloo]

75. Because the politician definition of 'trade' is very different from the dictionary definition

We grow up understanding trade as basic commerce; two interested individuals agreeing to a mutual exchange of goods or services. Nobody has a problem with this concept, and in fact, looking at other primates, it might even bee instinctive to engage in trade of this sort.

The politician concept of 'trade' however is purely about flow of capital. Goods and services aren't of particular interest, and the desires of the people of a participating nation are not only not considered, but are actively opposed. because in order for capital to flow from one state to another, it must first be 'liberated."

In a healthy economy, the middle and lower classes hold at least half, ideally more, of the capital in the system - simply by dint of population. The 'problem' there is that their capital rarely goes very far away from them. They spend it locally, on local goods, local services. Eventually some fraction of that local spending does exit into global trade, but not a lot of it; it stays within a community, for the most part.

To "liberate' wealth and facilitate fast flow of capital across nations then, it must be taken out of these local communities, stripped from the hands of the middle and lower classes, since they are not 'using it properly." Once so 'liberated" it can be packed together and tossed across borders like a volleyball. it never returns to the communities it was taken from.

Politician "trade" is economic fracking - stressing and shattering a community bedrock to release the resources inside, which are then shipped away, leaving that community with the costs of operation.

[WillTwain]

79. Nicely stated.

Why does he detest us?

[Scootaloo]

106. I don't think he "detests us."

I just don't think we're on the radar. There are so many walls and barriers between the president and the common American - and the only way through the gates is ever-larger denominations of bills. I know the president didn't set the system up like this, but he's certainly on the inside of it, and we're on the outside.

if for seven years, the only people you ever had a normal conversation with were the rich and powerful, don't you think your perspective of reality would change to fit those conversations? maybe not. But for most people, yes, that would happen - simple social osmosis.

[Enthusiast]

233. They have his ear. We do not.

[PowerToThePeople]

88. this is exactly what occurs when

This is exactly what happens to a company when it gets purchased by a multinational conglomerate.

[Enthusiast]

232. Thanks for sharing that.

[malthaussen]

257. Well put, Scootaloo

More people need to realize that this is how the leadership thinks.

-- Mal

[busterbrown]

81. “They are always against Trade"

How about a link....

Others have looked as well, not a trace...

This thread certainly has sucked it all in...and spit out joy..

How about it?

[WillTwain]

87. Heard it on the ED Show

He played Obama's response to a question in its entirety. Bernie and ED were sick about it.

[busterbrown]

93. I’m looking all over the place on his facebook google everything

Can’t find it.. but I’ll keep looking.. Would like to see the context...

[WillTwain]

110. Look at this thread, you will find it.

[WillTwain]

140. Try looking in the thread of all places. You owe me an apology.

[WillTwain]

107. http://www.msnbc.com/the-ed-show/watch/hillary-clinton-breaks-silence-on-tpp-429927491836

Actually what he said is even worse than my paraphrase.

10:38 of the clip

The unions on principle regardless of what the provisions are are opposed to trade.

[Andy823]

94. Yep

But then some here don't give a damn about "links and proof", as long as it's against Obama!

[busterbrown]

100. This is a fucking disgrace..

And I’ll apologize as soon as I see a link...Also if he said it.. I want to dissect the context..

[WillTwain]

113. Waiting for the apology.

[WillTwain]

121. This is a disgrace all right.

He said, The unions on principle regardless of what the provisions are are opposed to trade.

Regardless of what the provisions are. What the fuck was that?

Apology will be accepted upon delivery.

[WillTwain]

135. Hey Buster, You owe me an apology. You promised.

[busterbrown]

143. Hardly a cheap shot...

but he could have used a better choice of words..

So heres the apology.. You were correct..






Today there are all sorts of indications that the the TPP has merit...

[WillTwain]

149. Thank you Buster. I appreciate your apology. Very nice.

[WillTwain]

111. Hey buddy, the link is posted and it is even worse than reported. Settle down.

[busterbrown]

147. Hey will...Here’s one for U..

Thanks..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251403839#post19

[WillTwain]

155. At least you are trying.

[WillTwain]

128. Apology will be accepted upon delivery.

The unions on principle regardless of what the provisions are are opposed to trade.

regardless of what the provisions - this is what is really insulting

Still feeling the same way about me?

[PrefersaPension]

176. You need to give a damn about your fellow Americans!

And you need to be curious and concerned about bad policy. Please pay attention!

[WillTwain]

280. Andy, what I give a damn about is you apologizing for ugly assumptions.

[Bluenorthwest]

146. Here are the remarks in full, White House website.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2015/04/17/remarks-president-obama-and-prime-minister-renzi-italy-joint-press-confe

[PowerToThePeople]

160. At least one lie/fabrication

The point I’ve made to my labor friends and my progressive friends is that companies that are looking for just low-cost labor, they’ve already left.

This is a false statement, as the union shop I am employed with are currently and continuing to outsource living wage jobs to low cost locations.

[WillTwain]

285. He is such a bullshitter.

[WillTwain]

398. You did not introduce yourself.

Hi, I am Willtwain.

You are apparently Darb.

The president we shall call Bullshit. Agreed? Let me know if you want o go with Liar instead.

Can we be friends for life?

[Darb]

404. No thanks.

You are a reactionary that causes far more trouble than you will ever prevent.

[WillTwain]

414. Obama is rude to union men. They know him too well and he is uncomfortable.

[Bluenorthwest]

334. I'm certainly not defending those remarks, simply providing them for those who claim they are

fabricated. I went to find the full remarks because the OP did not have a quote. The full remarks contain pretty much what the OP said. Very very shitty thing for Obama to say.

[PowerToThePeople]

336. i did not think you were defending them

I was just making a comment after reading the link.

Thank you for supplying the full text.

[WillTwain]

338. The real quote is much worse than the shortened paraphrase.

He made the unions sound reflexive and dumb - like you could give them riches beyond imagination and they would still pout and scream no. No democratic president in the last century would talk down to unions like he has on several occasions. He is a rude arrogant man, at least to the unions.

[PosterChild]

368. Here is the full quote....

...in context


And being opposed to this new trade agreement is essentially a ratification of the status quo, where a lot of folks are selling here, but we’re not selling there. Japan is one of the negotiators in this deal. Now, the last time I checked, if you drive around Washington, there are a whole bunch of Japanese cars. You go to Tokyo and count how many Chryslers and GM and Ford cars there are. So the current situation is not working for us. And I don’t know why it is that folks would be opposed to us opening up the Japanese market more for U.S. autos, or U.S. beef. It doesn’t make any sense.

So I’m going to be able to make a strong case. But I think it’s important when you talk about dividing the party -- look, we got a Korean free trade agreement passed, we got a Colombia free trade agreement passed, and a Panama free trade agreement passed over the last several years, during my presidency. It didn’t divide the Democratic Party. There’s going to be a set of Democratic senators and House members who traditionally have just, on principle, opposed trade because the unions, on principle, regardless of what the provisions are, are opposed to trade.

And then there are others who, like me, believe that we cannot stop a global economy at our shores. We’ve got to be in there and compete. And we’ve got to make sure we’re writing the rules so that we got a level playing field -- because when we do, products made in America and services provided by American firms are the best in the world. And I will continue to make that argument.

https://whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2015/04/17/remarks-president-obama-and-prime-minister-renzi-italy-joint-press-confe

[WillTwain]

370. regardless of what the provisions are, are opposed to trade. Unbelievable language

regardless of what the provisions are

What a kick in the ass.

[PosterChild]

377. it is certainly historicly incorrect . ..

... since unions, post war up through the 60s or so were proponents of liberal trade agreements. Of course at that time foreign protectionism was against them and they benifited. Into the 70s that turned around and they became more opposed to trade agrreements and more in favor of domestic protectionism.

I don't think any of this is "principled". Its situational dependent on self interest. Autoworkers supported rhe Korean trade agreement.

[WillTwain]

378. Blatantly false and merely an opportunity for a cheap shot at adversaries. That is all it is.

[senseandsensibility]

99. Insulting but not surprising.

After seeing his handpicked Education "Czar", and his absolute disdain for unionized teachers, nothing surprises me.

[WillTwain]

115. Maybe Scott Walker will pick him of Vice President.

[Jim Lane]

181. He became ineligible about three months ago.

But, on the off chance that you were conveying your general disappointment rather than making a specific literal proposal -- I agree with you.

[Enthusiast]

237. All the appointments that I am familiar with tell me a bad story.

Duncan is one of the worst. Emanuel and Geithner were off the charts bad.

[democrank]

101. When it comes to unions and other issues that involve money

President Obama is a center-right Democrat.

[JohnnyRingo]

218. He saved my pension

I retired from GM and was months away from "redirecting" my life when he bailed out the company. If that's what "center right" does it ain't half bad.

To be clear, I'm opposed to the Trans Pacific Partnership as are my congressman (Tim Ryan) and senator (Sherrod Brown), but nothing is settled yet so I think I'll contain any contempt. I wouldn't be living in this house if not for Obama.

[WillTwain]

281. Obama did not save your pension - unions saved your pension. They forced his hand.

It is documented. The team did not want to save GM, but the political calculation and pressure from big unions turned the administration. If they thought they could get away with it and not lose all union support, they would have cut you off. That is a fact.

Insiders have been quoted and written about. This actually happened.

Thank your brothers and sisters and grand-brothers and grand-sisters for your pension not the administration.

This is why we still need unions. The little influence they still have saves lives.

[JohnnyRingo]

335. We see it differently.

I watched it as a white knuckle horror show from a front row seat, while you likely viewed it in retrospect as a below the fold news story about another business failure amid the recession. That grants you the ability to rewrite the massive bailout to portray Obama as a union hating neocon. The president lost more support from conservative democrats than he gained by ensuring a living wage and a few retiree's benefits. The administration's automobile task force even went to court to fight GM for continuing the pensions of Delphi workers like myself. That involved about 12,000 votes total.

"Pressure from big unions". What is this, 1965?

All Obama would have had to do was let GM slide into bankruptcy and reorganize "without the legacy of union contracts" as the right demanded, and the rest of the country would have told the UAW "welcome to the club". Public service unions long ago supplanted auto workers as the primary influence in American politics.

[WillTwain]

350. With all due respect, we do see it differently,

There is a book out written by an award winning journalist who's name escapes me, that details the conversations the Obama administration had about the auto industry.

In the book, Summers and the gang initially were all against the bailout. In what was a cold political calculation, they decided that at the same time that they were giving $700 billion to Wall Street not saving the auto industry would be political suicide. The unions would have gone insane, pulled out of the democratic party and left Obama on his own for 2012.

Someone on the staff said it would look bad to say the banks are too big to fail but images of laid off auto-workers being to small to save would look bad. Yes, it is a remnant of 1965.

Pressure from big unions saved your pension and gave you it in the first place.

[Enthusiast]

238. There is no center about it.

[Fumesucker]

103. Remarkable absence of pom poms and the wavers thereof on this thread

[QC]

125. Waiting for the official talking points, probably.

Then all will show up coincidentally repeating the same phrases.

[Enthusiast]

239. There are enough to suit me.

[polichick]

104. Presidential Assholery.

[WillTwain]

138. He has Tourette Syndrome for unions: Fuck you unions, Fuck you unions, Fuck you unions.

[polichick]

247. Ha! And for liberals too.

[Darb]

394. Stupid statement. Grand scale stupid.

Need a pony?

[polichick]

439. My post was simply accurate...

Buck up buddy!

[ibewlu606]

105. Kicked!

Worked countless hours to get him elected in 2008, 6 months into his first term it was obvious he was no friend to labor. I sat out the 2012 election.

[INdemo]

109. Again we have been fooled into thinking this guy is a Democrat for

6 years now. If we want the same kind of Right wing leaning President we need to nominate and elect Hillary.
She has not mentioned where she stands on the TPP and I'm betting she sides with the Repukes as well.

[colsohlibgal]

112. He's Come A Long Way

From near democratic socialist talk trying to get elected in 2007/8 to shilling for the TPP and chiding unions.

Now Hillary is sounding like Bernie Sanders trying to get to the WH. Color me quite skeptical.

[FiveGoodMen]

191. He started that journey when he picked Rahm.

That was before he took office.

He has always been the enemy.

[WillTwain]

287. Campaigned for Rahm in Chicago, avoided Wisconsin and Walker. In a nutshell, it says it all.

[turbinetree]

117. Mr. President & Congress

I do not normally say anything about you (Mr.President), but I want you to understand something.
I work as a jet mechanic in a industry who main function is that it means to keep "people" safe and that I do not want go to jail if I do something wrong, because someone may have done illegal work.
In this industry the airlines have outsourced heavy maintenance (C & D checks) to Honduras, Singapore, Brazil, Mexico, and other places based on cost and greed.
All these airlines overhaul facilities need to be certificated to work on that particular US Flag registered aircraft, and all that is need by the rules is to have "one" supervisor work and sign off the log book in a foreign facility (he must be a licensed FAA mechanic and he must be able to speak and read English) that all the work has been accomplished by non-certificate U.S licensed technicians.
This legislation will transfer more of this work outside the country, I love my career, I don't love my job to being outsourced to non-qualified firms and individuals working on US Flag aircraft, because its not about money its about safety and knowing who has maintained that aircraft by the FAA and manufactured standards under the 43.13 rules for 121, 145 and 165 carriers.
The FAA is being reconfigured has I write this rant in this current congress, and they have been underfunded for years because of republicans wanting to privatize the system, and they would allow foreign firms to operate some of this infrastructure---look at the toll roads in Illinois.
This is why I oppose this TPP------its about my labor (35 years as a licensed certificated technician) and my union...

[Enthusiast]

240. After years of this kind of outsourcing it can even becomes a serious national security issue.

Our aircraft maintenance infrastructure can lose its readiness.

These are the results of corporate rule.

[turbinetree]

317. Correct

From the very beginning in my career it was about security---always---but now its about costs and this TPP will exacerbate this outsourcing, if I am wrong, I am wrong, but I do not think so, this is going to become and should be an issue for the flying public anyone can write the carrier /FAA and ask how many of there Flag aircraft are outsourced to third party maintenance and what is the record with compliance.
You get the same old song and dance that all the facilities are safe and the work is being done properly---that is not true.
The FAA is short handed it cannot inspect all international and main base facilities, or mainline hubs on the U.S Flag aircraft, it is impossible, and when they do, they notify the carrier in advance when there coming------really as courtesy.

For everyone out there on this thread, realize this, when someone works on a aircraft, there has to be so many technicians for that aircraft and depending on the check being performed, and to have a licensed FAA certificated technician(s) ----but in the outsourced firms this is not happening------its about costs and greed----and the paperwork being signed saying that they are in compliance-----there are not enough FAA inspectors to verify this, this is a fact--------we do not want this agency and what it has to do, to be outsourced----the transparency is gone.


Look no further than North Dakota and what is going on in that state.
They do not have enough federal and state inspectors (2) to check all the rail lines, because of this libertarian / republican AYN RAND concept, that the state should be left alone to check and fund this-------no, but not only hell------no------that state will not hire enough rail inspectors because of the oil and gas industry-------that is outrageous----we have human life and wildlife being placed on the wayside just so that a company and a political action Pac can make money.

[Enthusiast]

319. Thanks, turbinetree.

[elehhhhna]

120. unions are always against trade that trades away their fucking jobs

Truefact

[Duppers]

126. recommended . nt

[99Forever]

133. This is a huge mistake for Obama and the Democrats.

There's a shitstorm brewing.

[Geronimoe]

142. Why a mistake?

Bill Clinton passed NAFTA and look who is the Democratic presidential candidate, running uncontested!

"Everyday Americans" may not like these deals. but clearly we don't count.

[99Forever]

144. I'm sorry but it's a subject I...

... find difficult to have much of a sense of humor about, but I appreciate your response and no exactly where you are coming from.

[liberal_at_heart]

136. So much for the community organizer. He is a DC insider. He has forgotten where he came from.

[hughee99]

141. He doesn't need their money or support anymore, and his post-presidential earnings

will come from the same people that will benefit from the TPP.

[Beowulf42]

150. BS from the WH

Remember that after he gave that rousing speech at the convention he became rich. He was no longer one of us. That's the way the rich separate us from our leaders. That is the tragedy of modern America.

[Hoyt]

151. Ask the workers at US based BMW, VW, TOYOTO, SIEMENS, etc., plants what they think of trade.

Unions have been criticizing Obama unfairly on this.

[busterbrown]

153. Appreciative the stuff you found on line today explaining the TPP..

Are people on this thread so completely bent on proving that Obama is ant-labor?

Just not realistic the things they are calling him..

[Hoyt]

159. I get their concern, but it's gone far beyond that.

[Andy823]

178. I agree

I think it has gone way to far. It's like a mob here. Someone stirs the shit, and they go crazy. Looking at the recs, it's the same group that always join in when it's time trash the president.

[nadinbrzezinski]

169. Forget about the politicians, and all that

I suggest you go down to the Union Hall. Locally they are having forums on what TTP is expected to do at a particular one tomorrow. Sit in one of them... listen. Get off this thread. I promise an education. I also promise a back to the future with NAFTA, and those labor leaders were correct as to what it did to organized labor.

I suspect modern day labor leaders and labor economists will again be proven correct.

So get off your comfy chair, and find out if they are holding any of these forums where you live and LISTEN. I guarantee an education.

I won't suggest that to Hoyt because he\she is dead set as to how great this is and how NAFTA was all ponies and wonderful roses and chocolate and everybody is happy. It was not, but I do not expect people that support these toxic trade agreements to even thing that perhaps those dirty workers might have a point to be afraid... and you know what? It is labor in every country where this is being imposed.

[jeff47]

174. Trade != free trade.

But please, continue to pretend anyone against the TPP is against ALL trade. That way you can avoid all that pesky thinking about the subject and how previous deals like NAFTA did exactly the opposite of what you claim.

[TBF]

157. "Free" Trade = Low Wages

Why would any supporter of labor be for that deal?

[jonno99]

213. I don't know how you get around lower wages in a global economy.

What - are we supposed to be against folks in other countries having a job? Unless we in the US completely isolate ourselves with tariffs, I don't see how wages are going to improve. And even then the cost of our goods will go way up because of increased labor costs.

As far as I can see it we're screwed all around.

Fuck it - I get pissed just thinking about it!
I'm going to bed...

[TBF]

312. I hear you -

in a sane world we would make this transition to "global economy" with a big ole decent safety net.

Let's brainstorm a bit. What if we had some sort of world government (or even just a commission of some sort) that would tax corporations world-wide and use that $$$ for basic payments to citizens all over. Basic substance wage so they can have shelter, food, clothing (ideally some health care and education at some level too). Citizens everywhere would have a base, and then could find a job (ideally) and work to provide additional comforts for their families. That way all the boats would be truly rising, as opposed to the "lowest common denominator" approach that we have now.

The way it is now there are global billionaires driving down all wages by moving their work here & there. If anyone complains about the low wages (and/or beatings in some countries) they pack up and move. They have stolen all the capital and treat the other 99% as serfs (at best).

There has got to be a better way.

[WillTwain]

321. There is, it is called progressive taxes. Except, it must be a global movement.

Insane wealth is being created and none of it is escaping the ultra-wealthy. This is going to end horribly for the royals.

[TBF]

348. That's the way I see it as well. nt

[blkmusclmachine]

158. Obama pals around with Christian dominionists/Christian reconstructionists; democracy is anathema to

these hard-right Theocrats.

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

9. Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

[wolfie001]

161. Unions helped elect this man!

That was an uncalled for attack on Unions! Boo!

[Madmiddle]

162. Five words

say it all about Barack Obama. Such arrogance.

[blackspade]

165. Crap, again?

[zentrum]

173. The middle class

…could so grow again if Bernie was President. And more people could rise up and join it.

Reptiles would constantly cut him off at the knees but his bully-pulpit would be fantastic and he is a real fighter. He'd put up bill after bill on our behalf. He'd fight for medicare for all, too.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

175. I noted that too and thought it undeserved.

[PumpkinAle]

179. It's going to be interesting to see where Obama

lands when he leaves office - I believe he sold out long ago.

As for his remarks about Unions - he wouldn't be where he is if it wasn't for unions.

America needs unions more than ever and Obama should know and understand this.

[Caretha]

180. How can you care ....

really care about labor, when single payer or the public option was never on the table? No, you care about Insurance companies and the middle man...not the laborer.

How can you really care about labor when your cabinet is made up of the CEOS of banks? No, you care about the status quo and making sure that all monies move to the corporations and elite.

Really, you can't fool me. What they really care about, and unfortunately Obama seems to also, is that the cheapest labor in the world is employed and that no taxes are paid by the corporations or very wealthy.

[JohnnyRingo]

182. Link? I'd like to see the actual quote.

Did Obama literally say "they are always against trade"?

Somehow I doubt it because that phrase makes little sense. Why would unions oppose "trade"? Perhaps you meant "unions are always against international trade pacts" because that's usually true.

I'm a union member who opposes the Trans Pacific Partnership BTW.

[elleng]

189. Exactly. FACTS would be useful.

A Poster earlier did provide context for the 'quote.'

Here, yallerdawg: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6524801

[Cha]

192. "He is not dissing unions -- he is explaining their opposition, and how he understands their

Positions"

Thanks, elleng.. I laugh at their rabid froth and stupid pitch forks, torches, and ignorant cheap pot shots.



"Cheap shots are leveled" but it's not the President who's doing it. Same ol crap different day.. means nothing.

[elleng]

198. Yes indeed, Cha.

I WISH it meant nothing, but all the posters who haven't seen this don't think so.

[JohnnyRingo]

339. It almost doesn't matter what Obama actually said.

The big news is how much people here despise the president. It's not like this is some straw that broke their backs, it's obvious this caustic vitriol lies just below the surface here and boils over in posts like this. The number of recs and replies on this post is disturbing to me and is cause to reconsider my future participation in Democratic Underground.

It's hard to imagine the president stabbing us in the back when his looks like a pin cushion.

[WillTwain]

351. Another way to see this.

We are near a tipping point where average people cannot take the abuse and disrespect anymore. And the open act of betrayal by the president is too much too much. The last straw, from our elected democrat none-the-less.

The number of recs means nothing more than we have had enough.

If you read the thread you will find many quotes and anecdotes casting the president as no friend of unions. Nothing personal.

It has always been the bottom that shifted the top.

[JohnnyRingo]

388. History repeats

Back when Dennis Kucinich was in the running for the White House I saw the very same "all of nothing at all" posts here that called out every other candidate for their betrayal to the left as a DINO. So now it's the supporters of Senator Warren who bring out the long knives in their sanctimonious purity test for democrats, and this president in particular.

I love Warren, Sanders, and especially Kucinich, after all, I live 50 miles from Cleveland and saw first hand the rotten deal he got, but I'm not going to stab other dems in the back for the sake of lofty ideals. You and your kudos filled club of liberal purists are doing a fine job in your attempt to split the party again.

I have no reason to continue comments in this thread of indignant hatred. Eventually you'll realize you'll have to either support the mainstream democrat in '16 or vote GOP, just like last time.

[WillTwain]

390. You call wanting a president that puts American workers first a sanctimonious purity test.

That should be job one not something you need to bed for. This is madness,

Regarding tearing the party apart, I would say Obama has done a hell of a job of that. His trade agreement that he is sneaking through congress will slaughter the middle-class. Yet, you believe we should all willfully take our seats on the Titanic and enjoy a game of shuffleboard.

Obama is dead wrong on this. He has sold his soul to Larry Summers and now is in the New World Order cult.

You may have heard, Larry offered Elizabeth Warren an option into the cult, too (true story from her book). She told him to go back to hell. Not Obama, he apparently filled out the application form and was hired.

Did Larry give you an offer? Then stop defending Obama.

[Cha]

385. Yeah, I know, JohnnyRingo.. only it's not really news to me. The same ol shit sandwich.. but,

they hate the word "hater". LOL

Just ignore the rabid mouthed pitchforks. It was the same in 2009-2010 when ACA was being written.. they whined their heads off and look what we have now. Obamacare!

[WillTwain]

391. Obama is a rude man. When he is cornered he loses his cool and turns into Cheney.

[Cha]

395. You're rude.. President Obama is an excellent President.

[WillTwain]

406. Run of the mill,

Great at some things awful at others. Nice guy overall, too bad he but threw in the towel when the going got tough.

If he was not such a union hater, he would have been a great president.

Of course, there is the fact that he is the first Democratic president to not raise the minimum wage. Even Bush gave America a raise.

[Cha]

412. You don't get it and that's alright.. it's actually a badge of honor for President Obama

[JohnnyRingo]

432. WillTwain compares Obama to Cheney

hahahahaha I knew that had to be coming in this bizarre case of political colorblindness.

The hatred here for Obama has become surreal. The "union hating" president saved my GM pension by bailing out the industry. The Automobile Task Force even went to court with us to protect Delphi retirees like myself during the launch of the "New GM".

That bastard! He's just like Dick Cheney, and WillTwain's credibility evaporates like a wispy morning fog.

Hahahaha

[Cha]

445. He's just acting out for his "100 of Recs".. to show them just how insidpid he can be for those recs

The hatred here for the President is nothing new.. it's just when they Think they smell blood in the water they go on a feeding frenzy and show their little shark teeth. LOL

So glad to hear a personal story of someone who was saved by the President's actions early on his Presidency, JR.

[treestar]

444. WTF??

Usually it is complained he is too compromising. This is the first time I've heard this one. Even right wingers don't say that.

[WillTwain]

450. Did you watch the clip of him marginalizing unions?

[JohnnyRingo]

451. I can't seem to find it, but I'd like to see it

I've scanned this thread three times now but have been unable to find the link to the actual interview (video or transcript). Perhaps it's been deleted. Since the simple two sentence out of context quote others supplied doesn't quite raise my ire to the point of grabbing a pitchfork, I assume the interview in it's entirety would help me see eye to eye with you that this pres is a traitor to organized labor.

Could you please supply the link that should have been in your OP? Certainly that could have avoided a lot of the blowback that is rife in this thread.

BTW, I'm opposed to the TPP as are my democratic congressman Tim Ryan and senator Sherrod Brown, but like them, I'm not ready to throw this president under a bus for blatant union busting.

I would sincerely appreciate any clarification you can supply.

[WillTwain]

452. It is in the OP, at the bottom, Incredible swipe at unions.

[WillTwain]

453. Hey Gringo, Any response? What a swell guy.

[JohnnyRingo]

197. Thanx Elling.

I suspected the actual quote was much less sensational. I have to admit, I was a bit shocked to read the considerable replies that eviscerated the president. I had no idea such vitriol existed here.

I'm a retired auto worker and my pension was about to evaporate in a couple months when he stepped in and bailed out GM. I owe Obama, and so do millions more who would have been affected if he'd followed the demands of republicans who wanted the companies to literally fail so they could shred union contracts.

He had my back, now I have his.

[elleng]

199. You're welcome, JohnnyRingo.

I only wish others had taken the time as did yallerdawg to look for FACTS!

[WillTwain]

327. Too bad your suspicions are wrong. You may find listening to the people that got his quote right

will be of great help in understanding the president.

"I suspected the actual quote was much less sensational."

Change more for less and you will have it.

[WillTwain]

289. Did you try looking for the quote, it is all over the thread.

Where did you get the idea it was a direct quote. Lesson: it is a journalist tool called a paraphrase. He actually made a much more insulting, demeaning, trashy comment.

Do your homework before spewing non-facts.

[Enrique]

297. and yet he did say that

he didn't say opposed to trade pacts, he said "opposed to trade."

JUDY WOODRUFF: On trade, the president pushed a new agreement with Asia, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, but he acknowledged the deal faces vigorous opposition at home.

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: There’s going to be a set of Democratic senators and House members who traditionally have just, on principle, opposed trade, because the unions, on principle, regardless of what the provisions are, are opposed to trade.

[WillTwain]

303. Something new, selective reading.

They have stooped to a new low. Selective hearing is bad enough but now even black and white print is ignored - selective reading.

[WillTwain]

307. You just said Obama "Makes little sense."

He cannot control himself. Unions rattle him to the point that the always cool-headed man cannot contain his condescension for them.

Fascinating display that gives a glimpse of the man behind the mask.

[bbgrunt]

188. k and r. this is disgusting, but not surprising anymore.

[INdemo]

190. Now that we know where Obama stands I wonder which Republican

he will endorse for President..see they too think Unions are against trade..
Cruz,Rand,Walker?

Wait..I know what happen.The Koch Bro's offered to fund the building of his Library.Ya think?

[Marr]

195. Unions are the part of the party that DLC types dislike the most. For now.

Once the unions are gone, I'm sure they'll move on to alienating another traditional Dem constituency.

[Thespian2]

196. K & R

I live in Canada, but am currently in Florida (south). We I get into the car to drive in traffic with demented drivers, I remind myself...get ready for the STUPID. Always happens.

I am a US citizen, so I worry about the US. When I think about the current administration, I remind myself...get ready for the STUPID.

NAFTA is STUPID, a drain on the economy, disaster for jobs, weaken the union workers. Both NAFTA and TPP (Too Putrid to Pass) allow corporations to fill suit to get enormous profits, that they MIGHT make if the US laws and protections affect those future profits. The whole damn agreement is filled with STUPID that will destroy what is left of the USA.

[WillTwain]

200. For all those that are loyal to the president - a song.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

201. Dems started distancing themselves from unions back in the 70s....

Keep in mind the Republicans presented themselves as the "Law and Order Party" and claimed the Dems were cozy with the mob through the unions. Party bosses like Mayor Daley made that charge believable.

We went from FDR addressing Union Halls to thunderous applause to back door deals with Wall Street.

But then, that was prior to the Cold War. Before America decided it's role in the world was to promote Capitalism.

[daredtowork]

205. Non-unionized workers have become a nasty, selfish bunch

Whenever there is a strike they should come out and support it in the name of preserving a large middle class. But instead all they do is whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine about the inconvenience.

[Fumesucker]

211. That's quite the broad brush you're deploying there

Non-unionized workers have no protections, often no benefits and usually make less money but of course *we* are the "nasty selfish ones".

I'm old enough to remember when union workers were physically attacking anti-war protesters, that left me as a kid who got drafted into the war they loved so damn much with a very bad impression of unions to start with, an impression I finally managed to overcome. Every union member I know is further to the right than I am, I guess it comes with the big paycheck and the great benefits.

I had already put a supportive post on this thread, now I'm attacked as being nasty and selfish, fuck that shit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6524947

[daredtowork]

215. Arg

Well I do apologize if you think my intent was to label all non-unionized people as nasty and selfish. I was never unionized in any of the service positions I have been in.

It is true, however, that non-unionized people in the area where I live have shown a strong lack of sympathy for striking unionized workers - energy, academic, and particularly transport. The BART train union in particular is one of the last strong unions in the area. However, politicians have proposed making transportation strikes illegal because of the "inconvenience" and interference with business their strikes cause. Popular sentiment all over the Bay Area is people would rather ban striking than take the bus for a month.

For instance: http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/diaz/article/In-transit-first-Bay-Area-strikes-shouldn-t-be-4907422.php

I regard that as short-sighted and selfish. I'd say part of the problem is this area is dominated by non-unionized sectors: financial and legal professions, and of course high tech.

I would not want you to apply my remarks to you or to the general run of service workers (in fact, I'd like to see them unionized) - but I hope you will also consider seeing my remarks in the light they *were* intended: unions are under attack, and there needs to be broad popular support for unions that choose to strike if we want to preserve the middle class.

[Fumesucker]

296. Where I live the perception is that you get a union job by being related to or knowing someone

And I don't think that perception is entirely unjustified, I've seen it happen in my own family my brother got a union job because of who he knows. Too bad for him he's not physically able any more to maintain the pace required in that particular job although he's on formal hiatus with the union until he gets a hip replacement at which point he might go back. A former son in law of mine and the father of some of my grandkids is a union member who gleefully told me he "voted for anyone with an R by their name". A nephew also is a union member and I know for sure both he and his wife vote Republican.

Some poor schlub making minimum wage or a bit more isn't going to be particularly sympathetic when he loses that job because the transit union is on strike to make more money when they already make a lot more than he has ever made. His employer doesn't care why he doesn't show up on time or even at all, he's not there when scheduled and they can always find someone that can make it.

I think the unions have been their own worst enemies in quite a few ways, I already mentioned beating up anti-war protesters, that turned off a lot of young men of my generation. Frankly from where I sit union members do come across as arrogant and overpaid a lot of the time and far too many union members vote Republican for cultural reasons on things like guns and abortion (nephew is one of those). I suspect that a lot of the Reagan Democrats were union, I remember arguing with them about him back in the day. You might recall that Reagan was actually president of a union for a while and he was endorsed by PATCO, which union he eventually broke by firing all of them.

You'll never get the upper middle class non-union types to support unions but unions are managing to thoroughly alienate the poor and lower middle class too with some of the things they do. As an older white guy living in the deep South it would be so much easier for me socially if I were to just go with the flow and be a conservative or at least just nod my head and go along when the conservatives start spouting their crap. Then I come on DU and get called a "brogressive" or some other insulting damn name if I mention economic justice. If the next 19 or however many months there are to the election are going to be like the last few I think I may to have to find somewhere else to hang out online, I'm getting really tired of catching shit both in real life and on DU.

There are a lot of DUers I like but the atmosphere here has been sucky for a long time and is getting rapidly worse, the only thing that keeps me here now really is habit.

[whathehell]

345. People often get jobs of ALL kinds from knowing someone -- That's not unique to unions.

You get your workplace unionized by working to FORM a union -- something a lot of those

envious minimum wage "poor schlubs" never bothered trying.

Interesting that you say "You'll never get the upper middle class non-union types to support unions",

Really?..I honestly doubt that, because my husband and I -- both children of blue collar union workers --

are now considered "upper middle class white collar non-union whites", and we STRONGLY support

unions..Why?..Because we saw, first hand what unions did for our blue collar families, and unions -- and

The New Deal policies of which they were a part, can take some credit for our eventually becoming "upper

middle class" -- Something few children of blue collar families can hope for now.

I don't care about the whiney little gripes about unions -- The thing that MATTERS is that they give

ordinary workers POWER to determine their wages and their lives, and those of their families,

something no other organization so successfully has -- The rest is bullshit.

[WillTwain]

356. Love your story.

[whathehell]

379. Thanks!

My sister's is even better. She's a superior court judge. Me, I'm less accomplished, but still educated,

happy, and financially comfortable. Both of our families are progressive, yellow dog democrats.

[Fumesucker]

381. So here you are rhetorically beating up people who are struggling

Easy to say from your secure perch.

And why haven't you organized ~your~ workplace if unions are so great, eh?

Your dismissive and superior attitude is exactly why unions are on the way out as a force in America. I'm trying to tell you how unions appear to a lot of people I know, why not try a little empathy and understanding rather then doing rhetorically what your parent's generation did physically?

[whathehell]

384. Try again, lol, I didn't "beat up" anyone and you know it..

Just because I stated a few facts that deflated your post like a punctured

balloon, don't think you can turn this on me, OR insult my "parent's generation"

with shitty accusations of them physically beating people, a charge so typical of ignorant,

southern anti-unionists, I'm inclined to cast you in a re-make of "Norma Rae"

a film I'm betting neither you or your know-nothing friends ever saw.

I was about to answer your defensive, pissy little "question", but decided

you're not worth a second more of my time.

[daredtowork]

362. That is a problem with unions - any organization will develop gatekeepers

The fewer unions there are, the more powerful those gatekeepers will become. Similar complaints can be made about government jobs: that's part of the reason the GOP has been so successful in calling for cuts to "Big Government" - they've been able to argue that it's a racket for jobs normal people can't get. There is probably something to this: I've personally heard job developers talk about not knowing the right people yet to start getting "their people" into Federal jobs. I've applied for several without success.

And then we all know those bureaucracies don't tend to shuffle paperwork rather than actually help people. But just because Social Security might become corrupt, does that mean we eliminate Social Security? Similarly: just because unions can become corrupt, does that mean we chuck that whole idea?

In my view, the GOP has been able to exploit this valid complaint (which could be used to critique/reform unions). to undermine the strongest weapon for the defense of middle class income. The standards set by unions even raised the standards for non-unionized employers who had to compete.

However, as the GOP war on unions eliminated that cornerstone, middle class standards crumbled. Also, fewer unions meant that those that were left were more likely to become too powerful and more vulnerable to internal rivalries and corruption.

I am sorry you felt my remarks were aimed at non-unionized DUers. It was aimed at people in my geographical area who make fortunes in Big Tech, but dis teachers, transport workers, and other people who are just doing what they have to do to get what's fair. And lest it sound like I've taken too much of a "broad brush" to the tech sector as well, I appreciate there is an enormous sector of highly exploited "contingent labor" in this area which could benefit from unionization as well.

[Fumesucker]

382. How was I supposed to take your comments?

Make some broad brush criticism like that about Muslims and see how long it takes you to get jumped on by a bunch of posters here on DU. It's an indicator of how elitist DU is that I'm the only one here who even noticed how you were kicking down.

Maybe if union members would stop voting GOP then the GOP wouldn't have so much power to destroy, I can't think of a union member I know who votes Democratic although I can think of several who aren't at all interested in politics and never discuss it and never vote.

I've read your posts as you related your story over the last while with some interest and I have a lot of compassion for you, I would appreciate it if you would show some compassion for people who are in just as bad a place as you are. Frankly your post I first responded to pissed me off so badly I had to rewrite my post several times before I was satisfied it wouldn't get hidden as a personal attack, it's actually pretty rare for me to get that upset these days.

[daredtowork]

421. I am trying to understand

Perhaps I'm just a sucker who has bought into union propaganda. I haven't belonged to a union since the Graduate Student Instructor union when i was a graduate student, but I follow Omaha Steve posts closely, and I have honestly developed the belief that unions form an important part of the middle class. Also, from my perspective, it seems wrong to exploit the "public service" aspect of striking workers: this is used against both teachers and public transportation workers. Their pay can be capped because they are enslaved by the entire public's interest - and mere convenience. Other professionals do not have to worry about their compensation being capped this way. The response to the BART transportation strike *was* whining.

It does distress me to no end that you took this opinion as personally offensive and regard it as supporting union members who support GOP. Again, I leave my mind open to the fact I might just be naive about how unions work. But I hope you will also leave your mind open to the idea that by making people choose between offending non-union members and supporting strikers, you might be inadvertently playing block and tackle to one of the most important economic supports for the middle class.

If your "elitism" objection is to the middle class all together, since it posits a "lower class", that bothers me a lot as well. I've been looking at Socialist Alternative recently since it has a chapter in my area.

[Fumesucker]

437. Before you started in on the insults against 90% of the population I had already posted positively

One thing I have learned being online since the days of 300 baud modems is that making yourself clearly and unambiguously understood is extremely difficult and you have to choose your words with exquisite care.

If you want people to be open to unions then insulting them because they aren't in a union isn't the way to accomplish that. I would have loved to have union pay scale and protections and union benefits during my working life, I never got the chance for that.

DU is elitist as all get out, I read derogatory comments here constantly about trailer trash, bad teeth, uneducated hillbillies and so on.

[daredtowork]

438. That's precisely why I got frustrated with the lack of strike support here

Unions negotiations bring up pay for *everyone* because they raise the entire market rate. The more unions and the more extensive union membership is, the better this effect can be.

However, conservative politicians who wanted to break unions in my area were able to exploit people who were chiefly dwelling on their own inconveniences to create non-stop complaints about how unions were disrupting their commute (when teacher's strike, the unions are hurting the children). These political attacks have been effective to the point where you - who are obviously very liberal - can say 90% don't belong to unions and advise me to choose my words carefully before calling these attacks on strikers "whining"!

Again, you are a person I'd particularly not wish to offend. It seems to me you don't realize that it's the GOP who are trying to dismantle unions, and that unions - when they are doing what they are supposed to do - protect wages and benefits of working people. When I've seen that "inconvenience" and short-sightedness is being used as a weapon of the GOP, it seems wrong not to point that out and support the efforts of working people to protect their wages, even if I do wish not to offend you. I'd much rather you not be offended by that.

[Fumesucker]

440. Not just the GOP, it's a substantial fraction of the Democrats too

The political class as a whole has been very nearly entirely captured by big money, the big money that hates unions because they cut into profits. That's a major reason Hillary is coming in for so much negativity here, her loyalties are divided at best and I for one think if push comes to shove she will come down on the side of the money rather than the people.

There are a lot of negative things said on DU that strike very close to home for me for various reasons, most of the time I let comments roll off me like water off a duck.

My journal has all my OP's in it since DU3, take a look and see if you think I'm a negative person in general.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=journals&uid=218111&page=1

And here are a few of my OPs I would specifically like you to look at, perhaps you will get a different view of me and realize I'm not really such a bad guy.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026289075

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026286638

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026246184

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026228954

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025675124

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002374653

[daredtowork]

441. Why would you think that I think you're a bad guy?

I have nothing against the far left: I'm considering joining Socialist Alternative locally.

If I'm reading this correctly, you're mainly upset at the way I expressed myself - by calling the attacks on union strikers selfish and whining. I still feel that was the nature of the attacks, and the GOP played on people's worst natures to get that effect. The same thing happens when they drop hints about welfare queens which turn into "evidence" for blatant racism. Or when the GOP foments fear of terror, and that leads to attacks on random muslims. I feel that sort of pettiness needs to be called out before politicians turn it into a "popular mandate" to ban strikes. I would hope that the entire 90% of non-unionized people wouldn't allow themselves to be used this way, though.

[Fumesucker]

442. You seem to think I'm "falling for GOP propaganda"

Perhaps "stupid", "naive" or "gullible" might be a better description of your thoughts about me.

I went to the trouble of posting links to show you that is a long way from the truth, somehow I doubt you read any of them.

It's not just "inconveniencing" someone if your strike causes them to lose their crappy job, it's a fucking catastrophe for them. No that doesn't happen every time or to everyone but you never know and I guarantee you the person who loses that job because of a strike will think less of unions.

I'm reminded of the old Yakov Smirnoff joke.. In America is dog eat dog, in Soviet Russia is other way around.

[daredtowork]

443. I read all of your links

I also read most of them when I posted them.

The miscommunication here is that you keep regarding my remarks as directly accusing you when I'm trying to explain their context: the attacks on strikers in the San Francisco Bay area.

Do you live in the Bay Area? Is that why you take my remarks so personally?

I do sympathize with a person who lost their job somehow because of a strike - but, IMHO, their anger should be aimed at the manager/business-owner who made it impossible for them to work under those conditions, not other workers who were trying to stand up for themselves. I'm not going to choose between the workers: my sympathy goes to both unionized and the non-unionized worker. Perhaps if the union movement could be revitalized that lost job could have been protected, too.

[WillTwain]

365. Unions are simply necessary.

The option is let the Papa John's pizza guy decide our economic lives.

[PrefersaPension]

429. Get a thick skin and keep fighting for the common good.

If I quit fighting the good fight every time someone insulted me, I would have hung it up 20 years ago. Americans on a whole are a selfish, me-me-me crowd -- the whole world sees it as should we, but that doesn't mean there aren't still enough of us to make a difference.

[truebrit71]

202. Yup. I heard that too... you can tell he's not running again....

.... he's finally letting the truth out....

[BainsBane]

206. Would it be too much to provide a quote and a link?

A source?

[WillTwain]

207. It is in the thread several times.

the actual statement is more insulting than the short paraphrased comment.

Incredibly condescending.

[BainsBane]

208. Yet not in the OP

You expect people to read through 200 plus responses to find it?

[WillTwain]

210. You really do not want to read it. It is awful. A democratic president trashing unions like that.

[merrily]

267. Yet, you seem worried that this will reflect badly on Hillary. I find that odd.

[Darb]

397. Of course you wouldn't provide a link.

Because you know when people read the actual quote in context they come to the understanding that you are either being a willfully ignorant pony piner, or you are posting your rubbish for more nefarious reasons.

I know which BTW.

[WillTwain]

448. Did you watch the clip of him marginalizing unions?

[Demit]

244. here is the link—

http://www.msnbc.com/the-ed-show/watch/hillary-clinton-breaks-silence-on-tpp-429927491836

It was posted Friday evening, at 7:46pm, and is in post #107.

I can't watch the show for you, that you'll have to do yourself.

[WillTwain]

283. BiBI, Do you have any input? Pretty damning vile comment. Think so?

[krawhitham]

214. As a 3rd generation Union Member I can say

President Obama is correct, we are always against any new trade agreements. Because historically we have always been screwed over by them

His comments today were in no way as a cheap shot on unions, he was just stating a fact.

[Darb]

401. Stop making sense. It will interrupt the ODS

circle jerk.

[WillTwain]

447. Did you watch the clip of him marginalizing unions.

[AgingAmerican]

219. His 'comfortable shoes' never came out of the box

nt

[BeanMusical]

221. He never bought them in the first place.

[Enthusiast]

222. Look who President Obama has aligned himself with in support of the TPP.

That is all you need to know.

[WillTwain]

290. Strange Bedfellows - I wonder what he thinks of Ayn Rand.

[merrily]

241. Comfortable shoes.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2009/08/the_president_and_the_postal_s.html

Why would anyone link Obamacare to the Post Office, when the much more logical link would have been to Medicare?

And why would a Democratic President take a pot shot at the US Post Office when it was already buckling under the "reform" of 2006?

Why would a Democratic President have appointed the author of the 2006 postal "reform" bill to the Postal Commission, along with Hammond, another enemy of postal workers?

http://www.savethepostoffice.com/what-were-you-thinking-mr-president-obama-nominates-hammond-prc

There are pros and cons to holding a Democratic National Convention to be held in a right to work state, but not to any of the above. Not to mention the Wisconsin messes with Walker.

EFCA

Trumka has warned Democrats, but he is in the same LOTE bind as voters. And, as a general strike violates law.....




In summary: The comfortable shoes came out of the closet only for the 2008 campaign, then went back in never to be seen again. And not because Joe Lieberman stole them, either. Or Baucus. Or the Blue Dogs. Or anyone of the worn out excuses.

And that was only one thing mentioned during the 2008 that was not as we imagined it would be--and I do mean imagined.



In general:

As New Democrat founding member Hillary rolls out her 2016 primary campaign rhetoric, it would be good to remember the divergence between the campaign rhetoric of New Democrat Obama's 2008 primary and general campaigns and the reality six years later.

[WillTwain]

295. Baucus, the guy appointed to champion the ACA.

I just got in a fight about this with another DUer. One reason we did not have chance for universal healthcare was Baucus was fiercely against it, yet the president appointed him to lead the ACA.

Baucus eventually praised the V.P. of Wellpoint for writing Obamacare.

Surprised?

[Enthusiast]

316. If advocates of a single payer Euro style health care system were allowed

a place at the table we might have at least been able to preserve a meager public option. The truth is the health care/insurance profiteers did not want the public to hear a peep about single payer.

When asked about single payer the President said, "It would be too expensive." He couldn't have believed that when every single example of existing single payer systems are far cheaper yet more effective.

[WillTwain]

318. His ignorance is staggering. They gave us exactly what they wanted. He was complicit with them.

[WillTwain]

320. The President said, "It would be too expensive." We cannot afford not to do single-payer. More B.S.

He thinks Americans are idiots. He is correct about that 80 % of the time.

[bvar22]

361. Not only that,

..but Baucus was well rewarded for his part in the scam.
Obama appointed him as the Ambassador to China, the biggest plum available.
Baucus can now fill several off-shore banks with lucre.

[WillTwain]

363. In 21 months Baucas returns the favor. Big wheels keep on turning.

[merrily]

424. No, Rahm led the ACA before it ever got to Baucus.

The cake was baked by the White House.

Baucus was head of the Finance Committee through which the ACA had to go before a Senate vote. I will say, whoever decided that Baucus should head that committee was no liberal. "The American Civil Liberties Union rated Baucus at 60 percent in December 2002, indicating a mixed civil rights voting record.[16]&quot And, before DOMA, he wanted a Constitutional ban on equal marriage. Wiki says more about his voting record. Though wiki calls him a moderate Democrat, I'm not sure I'd describe him as a moderate Republican. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Baucus

Baucus did let a member of the insurance industry "help" write ACA. Whether that was part of the deal the WH cut or his own bright idea, I don't know. (Lobbyists' writing bills for the government of the 100% is not unusual, but geez.) And Baucus did get a nice and pivotally important ambassadorship to China for his trouble.

[whereisjustice]

269. Kick

[ND-Dem]

298. he never did put on those comfortable shoes...

instead, a new low

[WillTwain]

300. He doesn't own any steel toed boots. He is well-heeled.

[Zorra]

346. Unions are not against trade. They are against the globalist free trade that has

exponentially crushed the rights, opportunities, and quality of life of American workers and their families over the last 45 years.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

366. His statement is right out of the Republican playbook

He's trying to garner support by invoking fear (of the Chinese). Of course most Americans are afraid of China. That's a Republican bread-and-butter tactic.

aside: Other liberals and Dems are similarly dipping into the Republican playbook. I keep hearing them set up a straw man to make ad hominem attacks against Snowden. They're presenting their argument as Snowden thinks he's Daniel Ellsberg. Does he really? He's said that? It's really quite pathetic and all out of the Republican playbook.

[WillTwain]

367. Obama has Cheney in a secret bunker.

I cannot recognize a single democrat in Obama's administration - maybe Biden.

The party has zero in common with working people. It is all a charade.

[Darb]

400. How many over-the-top stupid posts are you gonna make?

Give it a fucking rest.

[moondust]

383. Unions love trade.

In which Americans produce something in Detroit or Youngstown and export it to other parts of the world, while people in other countries make stuff and export it to the USA. You know, TRADE. Not this multinational bullshit that allows corporations to ignore national boundaries and laws and stalk the whole planet in search of the most desperate people to do their work at the lowest cost, then transport their stuff to wherever on the planet people have the money to buy it at the highest price. Margin baybee!!! Profits!!! That's not trade; it's global predation.

[BeanMusical]

386. "global predation"

Hum, so TPP could also mean The Predators Partnership.

[moondust]

387. More or less.

For some reason I haven't heard much about the expected benefits to the 99%+ of humans on the planet who are not multinational CEOs or large corporate shareholders.

[Darb]

399. I think 90% of you pony piners misinterpreted his words.

But, whatev, don't let me get in the way of your derangement circle jerk.

[AuntPatsy]

402. Deliberately or because of laziness?

[FSogol]

403. Well said, Darb. The admins will have some Monday morning reading, I suspect. n/t

[FSogol]

405. Unrec. You Better Believe it!

[WillTwain]

407. Hundreds of recs.

[FSogol]

409. The Justin Bieber defense?

[WillTwain]

416. It is interesting the difference between the thoughtful replies from the brilliant DUers that have

rec'd this thread compared to Obama groupies. Really an incredible contrast in content and ability to articulate, and justify their beliefs.

[FSogol]

417. Maybe some us don't waste our time feeding the trolls?

[WillTwain]

428. Yeah, that is it.

[PrefersaPension]

431. What is your definition of "trolls?"

Just because smart people have discussions about concerning or bad policy, doesn't automatically make them a troll. You do get that, don't you? These are serious times in need for serious discussions. You do get that, don't you? Is some of this stuff over your head? That's ok if it is, because it is complicated.

Please stop embarrassing the Democratic party by behaving the way you do. Join in the conversation, ask serious questions, know the issues concerning working Democrats.

I've fought with Republican trolls for years now and to hear you call a concerned Democrat a "troll" is quite concerning. Not sure where you are coming from, if you are the real deal, or if you are a paid agitator. Something is really off here.

[FSogol]

433. Not far from my definition of sock puppet.

LOL at "smart people." There is no discussion in this thread, just blind hatred of all things related to the Democrats.

[PrefersaPension]

434. Related to the "Third Way Democrats" -- if you are "Third Way" -- then just say it...

Really, using LOL? Appears to me that you are stuck in some silo of attack, no matter the serious nature.

Enjoy your immature snark attacks but keep reading the blogs by the smart people; maybe you will finally learn something.

[PeteSelman]

410. Of course. No one represents labor anymore.

With friends like this, who needs enemies?

Obama is nothing more than Reagan's handler's eight and ninth terms.

Sell out.

[WillTwain]

418. Somebody called him the most disappointing president.

I do not think another president has reacted this ineffectively to such an enormous crisis. And he had a supermajority for four months and one week - no minimum wage increase. inexplicable.

[PeteSelman]

423. Indeed, they trembled with fear when they had the power.

They were scared to death to use it for the good of the People and simply refused to do so.

No one was more relieved than the Democratic Leadership when that asshole Brown won Teddy's seat. Rhetoric is so much better than action.

[Cali_Democrat]

454. I really don't see this as a cheap shot against unions. nt