HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Is it cool to kill someon...
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Thu May 3, 2012, 11:14 PM

Is it cool to kill someone that is a detested enemy of our country?

More specifically, Osama Bin Laden?

There is something sick and disturbing about celebrating the death of anyone, in my opinion.

I understand that there was and is a lot of pain from what happened on 9/11 and the desire for revenge from many of those that lost loved ones on that day. But what about the rest of the country? Should we be rejoicing and celebrating the death of another person?

Is it OK to torture our enemies? Does this lead to an overall coarsening of our society and does it make us less a part of humanity?

Personally, I have a problem with anyone celebrating the death of another person, no matter how evil, because in the end, it is celebrating the death of us all. It is easy to justify but that does not make it right.

It is just my opinion, but I do not think we should high-five when an enemy is killed in war. But rather, we should mourn all loss of life as a diminution of our entire human race. There is something disturbing about the way our leaders discuss this entire debate.

Even in a "justifiable war" theory, there is no justification for the glorification of our leaders that are responsible for the deaths of so many. There is something unseemly and wrong...

.

33 replies, 2807 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 33 replies Author Time Post
Reply Is it cool to kill someone that is a detested enemy of our country? (Original post)
kentuck May 2012 OP
Gman May 2012 #1
NavyDavy May 2012 #8
LineLineReply .
Go Vols May 2012 #14
SammyWinstonJack May 2012 #22
dionysus May 2012 #2
nadinbrzezinski May 2012 #3
zappaman May 2012 #31
MADem May 2012 #4
OffWithTheirHeads May 2012 #5
gratuitous May 2012 #6
bluestate10 May 2012 #7
jp11 May 2012 #9
jberryhill May 2012 #10
Whisp May 2012 #11
OnyxCollie May 2012 #12
JI7 May 2012 #13
Honeycombe8 May 2012 #15
Gman May 2012 #21
saras May 2012 #16
ieoeja May 2012 #28
DonCoquixote May 2012 #17
quaker bill May 2012 #18
customerserviceguy May 2012 #19
lunatica May 2012 #20
kentuck May 2012 #23
quinnox May 2012 #24
MineralMan May 2012 #25
RagAss May 2012 #26
lumberjack_jeff May 2012 #27
GeorgeGist May 2012 #29
zappaman May 2012 #30
Marrah_G May 2012 #32
Raine May 2012 #33

Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu May 3, 2012, 11:18 PM

1. There is never anything cool about anyone, including the enemy being killed

But unfortunately it is sometimes necessary. Someone would have to be pretty sick to think it's cool. It's not. But sometimes it's necessary.

I fully supported Bush taking us into Afghanistan after 9/11. But when Bush let OBL go at Tora Bora the mission lost all of my support. Fortunately, Obama did what we went to Afghanistan to do to begin with. If possible, OBL should have either been taken prisoner at Tora Bora. Failing that he should have been taken out when we had the opportunity. Many would be alive today had Bush not let him go. And those that would be alive include many thousands killed in the meantime by Al Queda. Things would be different.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gman (Reply #1)

Fri May 4, 2012, 12:00 AM

8. agree 100%

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gman (Reply #1)

Fri May 4, 2012, 12:25 AM

14. .

A bunch of Saudis run planes into buildings that trained in the US.I didnt support Bush in any fashion.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Go Vols (Reply #14)

Fri May 4, 2012, 07:40 AM

22. Yeah, neither did I.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu May 3, 2012, 11:24 PM

2. cool? no. but in this case, a good riddance to bad rubbish deal IMO.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu May 3, 2012, 11:35 PM

3. I will ask you something...

have you ever served in front lines? If you have, then some of this will make sense.

Some of this is bragadoschio by mostly civilians who mostly have not served. But realize the President gave the GO order, he knew exactly what would happen if they failed. Mullen saw the team and met their gaze.

But celebrating the death of an enemy, right nor wrong, is as old as war itself. OBL, as far as many Americans were and are still concerned, was no longer human. It is the same way as Tojo, Hitler, Charlie, the Hun... you mention it... the first step in war, and in some ways this is a very low intensity war, that should more properly be a police action, involves dehumanizing the enemy.

Don't worry the Jihadis have done the same with the American invader in Afghanistan. Why the first step in any peace negotiation is actually not the size and shape of the people, but realizing the other side is also human. Believe it or not, that one some people, mostly front line grunts, never quite achieve.

Morality, no, not really... human nature... or chimp nature. I suspect them chimps that also go to war do something similar, and elephants and dolphins. We are not alone, even if we are that much more efficient at it.

Oh ultimately they fight over the same crap we do... resources. We just clothe it in nicer clothes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #3)

Sat May 5, 2012, 01:32 AM

31. "have you ever served in front lines?"

Have you?
You are certainly implying you have.
Was this before you were a cop, an EMT, and a fireman or after?

I would ask about the rest of your post, but I do not speak gibberish so I just have to...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu May 3, 2012, 11:35 PM

4. When you are in a declared war, the object of the game is to prevent the enemy from killing you.

And that particular enemy had no compunctions about killing people.

It's not a question of "glorification," it's simply a matter of taking out the trash.

I don't lose a moment of sleep over the death of Osama Bin Ladin. Daniel Pearl, on the other hand? All those poor bastards in aircraft that plowed into buildings, and the people in the buildings themselves? Now that's loss, that saddens me to this day.

Fuck Osama. I hope he's providing a good meal to some of the ugliest bottom feeders on the ocean floor.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu May 3, 2012, 11:37 PM

5. In a perfect world, no. This is not a perfect world.

Never has been, never will be.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu May 3, 2012, 11:41 PM

6. You're quite right

But what seems like an elementary tenet of humanity doesn't cut any ice in the Land of the High Church of Redemptive Violence. We're addicted to violence as surely as any junkie to heroin. We love violence, ascribe magical powers to it, believe in it even in the face of its utter failure to achieve its stated goals, and practice it at every opportunity. Strangely, though, we never recognize the legitimacy of its use by others against us.

All war is sin. --Alexander Mack

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Thu May 3, 2012, 11:46 PM

7. Yes. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 12:02 AM

9. No, not 'cool. BUT in an election year where republicans take the war hawk stance

you understand why there is this kind of attitude.

As far as celebrating it some were, many more than I would have thought, but others were celebrating a 'victory' while I might have felt some kindle of that way back in 2002 or so, after a decade of war(that wasn't ending anytime soon) what really is there to 'celebrate'?

I think that our policy of torture along with the wars HAS coarsened our society and done damage to a generation, beyond what the capitalistic greed and social Darwinism have injected into our culture. We used to be a country that didn't do that and we became this 'well technically it isn't torture as we redefined what torture is' like a weaselly liar we wiggled out of that constraint.

As far as high-fiving in a war zone I leave that to veterans, I won't judge a soldier for cheering when they blow up some enemy position or shoot a sniper/rpg who's killed/wounded team members or tried to kill them.

Now pissing on their corpses, taking snapshots of dismembered bodies I'll sit in judgement to say they should know better and be better but I extend some empathy to them fighting for their lives and dehumanizing their enemy but that works both ways.

I won't mourn the loss of all human life to diminish the entire human race because some humans just don't add much of anything to our race or do such harm that they essentially wipe out any good they may have done. You have to want to be part of the human race, a member of society and the senseless killing of people etc to me is the clearest way to say you want none of it, you reject all that society and humanity stands for.

The answer to that rejection should be humane and take the best interests of our society into account, that might be life in prison with no contact with other prisoners or in some cases it might mean death either forced by the state or as an option for the prisoner to commit suicide.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 12:17 AM

10. Why do Shaolin masters know fatal blows?

One seeks to avoid conflict. However, ...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 12:21 AM

11. who said it was cool?

certainly not the President. I take your OP as an askance stab at him for that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 12:22 AM

12. Detested enemies are only vague, abstract concepts

in the aggregate mind of the mass public.

The awareness you've revealed by asking your question puts you outside of the mass public.

That is also your curse.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 12:24 AM

13. there have been more celebrations over less evil types like Breitbart and even that animal guy steve

irwin on here.

on Osama Bin Laden i don't care. i think it's understandable if people do celebrate. id on't think it's bad. i don't think it's necessary to celebrate it. but i don't think there is anything wrong with it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 12:31 AM

15. I wouldn't say "cool," but it is "just" to save lives of innocent people by executing a murderer

who refuses to surrender. It is also "just" to execute someone for the murder of thousands, when he refuses to surrender.

Also, what you call revenge others call justice. There must be accountability for murder. Otherwise, there is no civilized society, and innocents and the vulnerable are left to mayhem and murder en masse. Also, such a person must be removed from his position so that he doesn't kill more people.

It is cause for appropriate accolades for the intelligence, talent, skill, and bravery that resulted in finally finding the hiding murderer and getting him. They preferred to capture him. He preferred to die. His choice. It is recognition of those who deserve recognition.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #15)

Fri May 4, 2012, 07:35 AM

21. You are correct. The word to use is "just"

"just" and "cool" or two separate and unrelated concepts.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 01:04 AM

16. No, for a long list of reasons.

 

"Cool" is stupid and childish, and has no place in a decision about killing. Go work in an emergency room for a week, then try again.

"detested enemy of our country" contains more lies than words.

A simple test ...

A. If America just butted out of the middle east completely, would Bin Laden have continued to come after us?
B. If Bin Laden had just disappeared to Argentina or something and never worked again, would we leave the Middle East alone?

There's your problem. Blame it on oil if you like.

For a few decades, Noam Chomsky was a detested enemy of our country, as are antiwar and environmental protesters right now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to saras (Reply #16)

Fri May 4, 2012, 11:57 AM

28. Good questions.


A. Nearing completion of helping the Pashtun Taliban succeed in conquering the non-Pashtun Afghans, Al Qeada had already begun setting up their next network in one of the neighboring countries, I have forgotten which. While he probably would have spread the horrors perpetrated upon Kabul throughout the Middle East, Central Asia and portions of Africa, I seriously doubt that O bin Laden would have reached us. Europe, China and Russia would have kept him busy. They would have become never-ending victims of terrorism, but they wouldn't have fallen so completely that Al Qaeda would be ready to turn their guns on us.

B. We are never going to pretend the Middle East does not exist any more than we are going to pretend that Europe, Asia, Australia, Africa, Canada and Latin America do not exist. We are not going to put up a wall around the United States.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 01:50 AM

17. Naom Chomsky

Never advocated killing people, never helped others to kill people. Comparing with to OBL is not a proper fit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 07:03 AM

18. I would not call it cool

Choices were made. Osama made the choice to become public enemy number one, and apparently worked hard to maintain his status. I am pretty sure he made this decision knowing he would be killed if found, and this knowledge did not deter him in his choice.

The President through Seal team 6 simply delivered the fate Osama requested. It was not easy to do and it was an accomplishment.

The only path to end the war was over Osama's dead body, which was pretty much the way Osama wanted it. Ending the war is a far greater good, as fewer innocents will die. I am no fan of killing anyone, however a choice that spares innocents of more years of war is always laudable, but it is never "cool".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 07:13 AM

19. Normally, I agree with your sentiment

But this time, I'm willing to make an exception. It's one thing to bomb a Marine barracks in Lebanon, at least they can fight back, but to go to the home of innocent civilians and destroy thousands of them for a stupid ideal transformed OBL into an enemy of all humanity. The planet is much better off without him.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 07:26 AM

20. Killed because he was a 'detested enemy'?

How quaint.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 07:41 AM

23. I would not blame the President or the troops...

...as much as society in general. Wow! Did you see that bomb go down that smoke stack!?

It is difficult to argue against a "just" war when innocent people are killed by some evil person or evil group. We must guard against becoming that which we hate and despise. Otherwise, we will find ourselves torturing people and killing innocent people ourselves. Some may say we are already there?

The "necessity" of killing an enemy does not mean it is a necessity to cheer his death, simply leading to more killing and death. For the sake of our humanity, war should not be as trivial or commonplace as a sporting event. Even as we recognize the necessity of some wars and the killing of some enemies, we should not lose our bearings as to what makes us humans and liberals. That is all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 07:42 AM

24. obviously humanity has a long way to go

 

Not sure how long we have been on this planet but we haven't learned very much or experienced much growth in my opinion, except for technology and science, our spiritual growth is still in the infant stage. It an interesting question if humans will ever evolve to a higher state than this.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 09:17 AM

25. It's never "cool" to kill someone.

OBL was killed. Nothing to celebrate, but warfare involves people dying. Regrettable, but factual.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 10:05 AM

26. I thought the 99% was the detested enemy of the "country".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 10:10 AM

27. Only if I get to define the terms. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri May 4, 2012, 10:30 PM

29. Do you always get jump into the frame ...

the Republicans build for you?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat May 5, 2012, 01:30 AM

30. I miss the UNREC button.

Glad the fucker is dead and every day I am glad he is no longer of this earth.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat May 5, 2012, 01:36 AM

32. Not cool, but perhaps necessary

I don't celebrate anyone's death. Some deaths however, I do not mourn.

There are a number of human beings on this planet that I would not mourn the death of.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat May 5, 2012, 02:51 AM

33. I'm just glad OBL is dead ...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread