Boston using prisoners like slave laborers to shovel snow in back-breaking conditions

[KamaAina]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/02/18/1365146/-Boston-using-prisoners-like-slave-laborers-to-shovel-snow-in-back-breaking-conditions

The first five paragraphs describe just how severe the weather has been in Boston and how it may take a month for track conditions to get back to normal. The article then transitions to the great opportunity for union workers and students to make some extra cash - $30 an hour extra to be exact.

A mixture of union workers, students and others just looking to make some extra cash are shoveling MBTA tracks, WBZ-TV’s Nicole Jacobs reports. The MBTA is paying $30 an hour to workers who help clear the snow.

But did you notice the 8th word in that quote? It's "others" and by others they mean prisoners. 50 of them. Except these prisoners aren't being paid $30 an hour. They aren't even being paid minimum wage. Hell, they aren't even being paid what minimum wage was decades ago. Go lower, much lower. $1 an hour would 5x more than what prisoners are making shoveling snow in Boston.

They are making $0.20 per hour. Yes, you read that correctly - twenty cents per hour. In other words, those making $30 per hour are making 150x what the prisoners are making for the same work. Now, we could debate all day whether prisoners deserve $30 an hour, but paying them $0.20 per hour is pseudo-slave labor. At the end of a work day, they will have earned $1.60. At the end of a 5 day work week they will have earned $8 - which is what the college students will earn, literally, in 15 minutes of work.

[sharp_stick]

1. Prisoners have been doing that kind of work

since the origin of prisoners.

They always work for a fraction of wages simply to add some cash to their canteen account.

These prisoners are all volunteers and there's usually a line up whenever they're asked because it gets them out from the drudgery of normal prisoner life.

[Savannahmann]

5. So they owe their soul to the company store?

Or a version of it anyway.

[jwirr]

17. I remember prisoners working to help people out in floods. We were told that they were volunteers

and I do not know if they got paid. I worked in a local museum that "hired" prisoners from the jail to help lift and carry when we redid displays. They did a lot to help us. I have no idea what they were paid.

Two benefits of lining up for this type of work are (1) getting outside the jail for a change and (2) helping to convince people that you are willing to help when needed. I went to get extra food at a program called Ruby's Pantry last month. They often have the National Guard help people carry the boxes out. This time I did not recognize the uniforms or the Officers uniform either so I asked on my way out. The young men came from a local juvenile boot camp. I went back in to tell them I appreciated their help and thanked them. Anyone who was there that day was impressed with their help.

I do think that the snow crew are not getting paid enough.

[Brickbat]

2. Prisoner labor is slave labor.

[Fred Sanders]

7. And it distorts the labor force towards lower wages...win-win for the party of slavery.

[philosslayer]

105. Which party is the party of slavery?

[Fred Sanders]

106. There are two....pick one.

[philosslayer]

107. Well, Abraham Lincoln was the guy who signed the Emancipation Proclimation

So, the other one?

[NYC Liberal]

115. The party of conservatives.

Which one is that these days?

It was conservatives that fought to keep slavery. In 1860, they were Democrats, but today they are Republicans.

[tblue37]

110. One reason why the prison industrial. complex likes to see those prisons full, even if that means

filling them with minor drug users or those caught up in our return to debtors' prisons.

[muntrv]

3. I believe the 13 Amendment makes exception for prisoners.

[hifiguy]

67. Unfortunately it does.

That makes this no less morally monstrous. They should be making $15/hour.

[Telcontar]

77. And then paying restitution and covering the cost of warehousing them, right?

[hifiguy]

92. Um, no.

If society wants to punish and incarcerate people that responsibility for that should lie with the state. Imprisonment is being doled out as the "will of the people" so let the people pay for it if that's what they want. That is one of the primary functions of government - handling the things that can only be done collectively.

[F4lconF16]

127. +1 well said

[Aerows]

129. Nailed it, as usual. n/t

[whatthehey]

4. No problem with this.

Whenm they start paying for their room, utilities and food then we can worry about paying them for civic-minded labor. A chance to pay back to society and get out in the open air is remuneration enough.

[KamaAina]

6. What the hey?

It had to be done.

[Fred Sanders]

9. Today's prisoner is tomorrow's neighbor and worker. Folks realize prisoners are released?

Is loss of liberty not enough? Isn't punishment the role of the judge, not the prison?

Piling on and profiting from prisoners is a con thing.

[sharp_stick]

16. They're all volunteers

When they post these jobs, there are usually lineups trying to get on the crews.

It's a chance for them to get outside the gates and that's pretty valuable in a prison environment.

[Fred Sanders]

20. So they have to be slaves and do hard labor to get fresh air? And distort the labor market. Link?

[Egnever]

23. how are they distorting the labor market

Non prisoners are being paid $30/hr.

[Fred Sanders]

24. So if there were no slave prison labor...who would they hire, and pay, to do it???

[Egnever]

25. um all the people they are paying $30 an hour to do it now?

Your post is very strange.

[Egnever]

102. Pretty weak point

considering the national guard was deployed to help with snow removal as well. This is an all hands on deck situation not a we don't want to hire people situation.

[Egnever]

108. Well this is the case we are talking about no?

And while I agree that we could certainly hire people to pick up trash on the side of the highway, I think it is much more complicated than that.

Most places around me have portions of the highway sponsored by various corporations or organizations. So the government doesn't actually have the funds to pay anyone to do it in the first place. If you want to propose a tax to raise those funds so we can pay people to do it I am certainly open to that but it is by no means a case of just not wanting to pay people.

Secondly as I have said before this is done by volunteers in the prison system who I guarantee you are overjoyed at the opportunity to get out of prison for the day and see normal people and smell fresh air not to mention a host of other benefits that come with these "jobs". As someone who signed up for one of these jobs I know I and every other inmate working with me at the time felt lucky to be there and were unanimously disappointed when it was time to go back at the end of the day. So I am not inclined to take away those hours of relative freedom from them.

Next time you are at a park or somewhere you see the guys in orange vests cleaning up trash ask one of them if they are happy to be able to be there instead of back in their bunk.

[A Little Weird]

109. My company used prisoners for an office move.

Nobody tried to pretend it was anything other than a way to save money. I witnessed those men being talked down to and berated over very minor things, told to lift things that were obviously not meant to be lifted by one person, not given reasonable breaks, etc. I guess besides not having to pay them minimum wage, they don't have to worry about those pesky labor laws either. I'm sure the inmates signed up for the "privilege" but that only makes me wonder how bad their situation at the prison must be for that to be preferable. And really, whether the prisoners prefer it or not, that's a job some local moving company didn't get because they can't possibly compete with the cost of prison labor.

I'm all in favor of giving prisoners educational or vocational training while they are in prison so they can have a better chance for success when they are released, but I don't think exploiting their labor so some company can save a few bucks is morally right.

[Egnever]

111. Well now you are talking about something else entirely

I don't agree with prisoners performing private services. That IS exploitation in my opinion as well as an unfair marketplace competition. My position changes, when it is a public service and one that is delivered for the benefit of the community as a whole.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the inmates were happy to be moving your furniture as well though.

[TheKentuckian]

119. There is no surplus demand for labor and never will be again in all likelihood

If the prisoners need fresh air out of their bunks then set up some field trips.

[dixiegrrrrl]

112. If our county had to pay going wages for trash pickup, it would not get done.

No money in the budget for that kind of work.

You can drive down the interstate here in spring and fall and see the groups of inmates picking up litter. They wear the striped outfits, and I can imagine a lot f kids get pretty wide eyed seeing this.

What I consider slave labor for prisoners is when for profit companies contract with prisons to make things for sale for the company, and the prisoners get paid pennies.
Did you know that there are call centers in prisons, staffed with inmates, taking internet orders over the phone?

[sharp_stick]

30. I'll mark you down

as someone that doesn't want them to leave the confines of their courtyard. I'm sure they'll love that reform.

They're helping out by shoveling some snow, they aren't building the pyramids. I spent hours doing it myself over the last few weeks, my wife did too, she's pretty good at it.

The life of a prisoner is generally boring. Even getting outside for a short period of time is an opportunity that not many turn down. The fact that they get some money to add to the canteen account is a bonus, most of them have a hard time getting any cash in there from outside sources. Doing this kind of work is also a real check on page during any upcoming parole boards.

[Fred Sanders]

33. Your take on "prison life " is interesting. So boring one will do slave labor willingly?

The only punishment is loss of liberty. Nothing else.

[sharp_stick]

34. I did a 6 month rotation

at a maximum security institution during my residency in Medical school.

It was an eye opening experience and failure to give prisoners activities, including job training plays a major role in psychiatric downturn and increase in recidivism.

[Fred Sanders]

35. Without disclosing anything further, I got you beat on the eyes opening thing.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

113. What'd you go up for?

[jberryhill]

130. Violating DU guidelines

Jury was fixed, I tell ya!

[guillaumeb]

36. every time a prisoner is used as a worker outside the prison

is a time that a non-coerced worker is deprived of the opportunity to earn wages. This is not some noble deed by a caring prison administration, it is using slave labor to distort the market. To say that the prisoners volunteer is a smokescreen. The whole prison system is based on violence and coercion.

Many prisons are using prisoner labor to save money. The well being of the prisoner is not a factor. That is like saying that the old chain gangs were an opportunity for the prisoners to get some fresh air.

Prison labor was also extensively used in the American southern states to accommodate the huge influx of black convicts in the post war years. They figured that a prisoner was just as good as a slave and the factory owner did not have to feed them.

[Egnever]

37. epic fail

There is a huge difference between forced hard labor and volunteer community service.

[guillaumeb]

48. neither a prisoner nor a slave

can ever be a volunteer. A voluntary act is done with no thought of payment. The prisoners are being paid slave wages.

The same argument could have justified Jefferson owning slaves and him allowing them to do side work. Which he did. But his slaves were not free and the prisoners are not free. In each case the worker is not free.

My view.

[Egnever]

55. once again

Volunteer community service is in no way comparable to slavery. None of these prisoners are forced to do any of this unlike the slaves in your example.

If the prisoners were being forced to do this you might have a point.

[guillaumeb]

59. a prisoner is under the absolute control

of the jailer. It is all about the power relationship here, and there is no equivalency. Prisoners are slaves of the legal system. Prisoner is just a polite term for slave so people do not have to think how racism impacts the prison system.

Again, please check out the link I sent.

[Egnever]

63. no sorry they aren't

Once again volunteering is not the same as forced labor. Your link deals with forced labor. This is not forced.There is no equivalence in your link.

[pipi_k]

118. A reminder...

A prisoner is under the complete control of the jailer, not because of who he is, but because of what he's done.

People can argue about the penal system being "racist", but it's not the same as being made into a slave based on someone making a sweep of the area and capturing innocent people with the intent of making them slaves.

A prisoner has been pronounced guilty of some crime by a judge or jury and sentenced to prison.

If the crime isn't terribly heinous, he'll eventually be released. Slaves hardly ever got released, unless it was to another "master". Plus, slaves were slaves generation after generation.

Not so with prisoners.

So a prisoner is supported by the government...food, housing, clothing, medical care, etc. Sometimes they have it better than people who are NOT in prison, except for the not being free part, but even then, some convicts find they do better in the structure of the prison system and don't even MIND going back to prison after they're released.

If they don't want to go on highway cleanup detail...or shoveling snow detail...they won't be whipped within an inch of their lives for refusing. Not that I know of, anyway.

That, IMO, is the difference between volunteering to do a job and being forced to do it.

[guillaumeb]

146. your points are all valid

but many factors go into who is a prisoner and who is not and the mere fact that, in your words:
"A prisoner has been pronounced guilty of some crime by a judge or jury and sentenced to prison. " needs further elaboration. There have been many studies done about the link between racism and the prison population. Michelle Alexander's "The New Jim Crow" is a good place to start.

That said, my comments about the "voluntary" aspect of prison labor is related to the original post because prisoners are many times forced to work. Many counties force prisoners to do outside work or risk further sanctions. But whether the prisoner wishes to work or not, slave wage prisoner labor will displace free labor to the detriment of all laborers.

My opinion

[TheKentuckian]

120. There is no surplus demand for labor.

[guillaumeb]

53. some resources you might like

The link below might answer your point far better than I can. Please take a look and see what you think after reading.
http://www.solidarity-us.org/node/2941

[Egnever]

61. I think like others on this thread

You are confusing forced labor with volunteering.

I think perhaps you should talk to the volunteers themselves before getting your outrage on.

Having been incarcerated for a period of time I can tell you for a fact the best gig in the jail was cleaning up parks. There was a long list of people waiting to get that job.

Far from any punishment it was a chance to be outside and at least for a little while enjoy a small sense of normalcy.

Any chance to get outside the walls was a chance people jumped at including myself.

I would bet you there are far more people standing in line for these shoveling jobs than there are slots to fill.

[guillaumeb]

95. I have never been incarcerated,

and I am not disagreeing with your personal experience. You do not say whether or not you have looked at the link I provided. My remarks are meant as my personal feeling on the issue of prison labor vs. free labor.

But if you look at the link I previously sent, you can read how many states, predominantly southern, used prison labor after the Civil War as a way of providing revenue and re-enslaving newly freed blacks. The practice of denying the franchise to ex-prisoners was a bonus for states that had no intention of allowing black people to vote.

Amazing how racism is still entwined in every aspect of a post-racial America.

[Egnever]

98. I read the link

Once again the link is all about forced labor. This snow shoveling is not forced it is volunteer. The prisoners do not have to do it. If my past experience was any indication this is a big opportunity for a lot of guys and or gals to get a brief break from the bleak prison atmosphere.

Now I was not in prison I was in the county jail which is not the same but I seriously doubt the prisoners who took this volunteer job are anything but glad for the opportunity.

[guillaumeb]

99. you may be completely correct

on the issue of prisoners being willing to work outside. But my comment about prisoners being in a powerless situation is also correct. My other comment about using prison labor in lieu of non-prison labor is that, all things being equal, low wage labor always drives out higher wage labor. Common sense-econ 101.
Good talking with you, I liked the exchange

[Fred Sanders]

41. Well said. Anyone, like yourself, with an understanding of history, would have to agree.

It is indeed a slippery slope back to the dark ages.

No pun intended.

[glasshouses]

51. It's used all the time in Blue states

My state uses prisoners on the side of state highways to pick up trash.

Those jobs could be state jobs with bennies for unemployed workers in my state

[guillaumeb]

57. absolutely.

and every time people are paid less it puts downward pressure on the working class to accept less.

[napi21]

76. My State has prisoners do road work, hlp direct traffic during construction, etc.

I really don't see a problem with it. They aren't abused. It gives them a chance to get out of the confines of jail. The gov't is paying to house, feed & clothe them already. Call it slave labor if you want, but I do the same thing when I need my son to help cut up downed trees, shovel snow, mow the grass, etc. I gues you think that's slave labor too?

[glasshouses]

83. My contention is these are jobs that are needed where the states gets out of posting them

where unemployed workers could apply for them.

My state has at least 100 prisoners a day picking up road trash only on state maintained roads.

If they need that done then they should post the positions and hire people.

[napi21]

90. You DO KNOW their argument is that they're saving taxpayer $$ by using prison labor.

They'd tell you if they employed workers at large, they'd have to raise your taxes.

Since your taxes are already paying to keep these prisoners in jail, why not utilize their labor to help keep taxes in line?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

132. The government can only collect so much in tax

Prisoners cleaning up the sides of roads is a win/win for everybody. They get out and we get our roads cleaned. This is not forced labor, and is a good use of resources.

I am totally against prisoners working for any kind of private enterprise. Totally against.

On the other hand, if the prison warden wants to make them shovel rocks in prison, I have no objection.

Prisoners should be doing two things in my opinion: labor and study. Five days a week they should be working and studying to improve themselves, with two days off for recreation, rest, family visits, etc.

But, that's just my opinion.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

114. So how do you feel about Obama's (now stalled) immigration reform?

[840high]

93. ,+1

[Romeo.lima333]

38. shoveling snow = hard labor?

[Fred Sanders]

40. Four words = making a point?

[Romeo.lima333]

49. that's it? ok, one word: yes

care to comment on what was said or is snark all you got.. never mind i dont care that much

[Fred Sanders]

58. Double ditto.

[haele]

75. People get heart attacks shoveling snow all the time.

Not just because they are 70 year old men with no families to help out. There's also a hypothermia risk, and dehydration - I still remember getting excruciatingly thirsty helping my dad shovel half a foot of snow (with another foot of drifts) out of a 30 foot driveway so we could get around the one time it seriously snowed in Seattle when I was growing up. And I remember the three days of pain afterwards - and I was a healthy 13 year old that was very competent in gymnastics (unparalleled bars and tumbling) and played on both the school soccer team and junior league. Half a foot of snow compared to three to six feet of snow. An hour's worth of work when I could go inside when I got too cold compared to eight hours of work with a few structured breaks - no just walking inside for a lukewarm cup of tea and a three minute sit to warm up a little before going back outside.

Snow is not light, nor are snow-shovels. There's also the constant hunch, bending and lift repetitive motion with the weight of the snow and the shovel suspended three feet from your hands.
I don't care if these are guys who work out in the weight room. They're not used to that sort of repetitive weighted motion and they will be hurt.

Yes, it's hard work. And for $.20 an hour - that's a f***'in insult to the man - even if he is a criminal - that is doing such work. That's just added punishment.

On edit - to make it even halfway equitable, put at least minimum wage worked on the books to hold for when the prisoner gets out. If you're paying volunteers, you need to pay the convict volunteers for the wear and tear on their bodies, also. I get sick of seeing this with the prisoners who volunteer for wildfire duty - they risk getting killed, and they only get pennies to use at the prison canteen for seriously difficult work? Just pay fairly, and put it aside in an account they can get to when they get out, so they get out with more than the proverbial "$20, a bus pass, and a cheap suit" when they get out.
If they're trusted enough that they are allowed to get out and do community service, they should be paid for that trust. That would go a long way towards a sense that they supposed to be experiencing correctional rehabilitation and could be valued citizens when they get out, rather than just spending time "on ice" waiting out their sentence.

Haele

[Romeo.lima333]

104. you make it sound as if no one survives snow shoveling.

At least two people have died from heart attacks while shovelling snow in Buffalo, New York. Every winter, about 100 people( or .0000003% of the u.s. population ) in the US die doing this. buffalo population 2013 estimate: 258,959 = .000007% of the buffalo population so Idk about People get heart attacks shoveling snow all the time but I get your point.
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-30119410

labeling snow shoveling as hard work, yes, it's not easy but I still wouldn't call it hard labor. hard labor sounds more harsh than shoveling snow. I agree they should be paid better and I imagine they can stop when ever they like. I think it was said this was voluntary.

I hear you though, i snow-blow the neighbors drive and sidewalks for him cause he's 60+ and still works and I'm afraid that if I don't his wife will go out and do it(which is what started me doing this for him )

[Stardust]

123. You nailed it. Shoveling snow is backbreaking and I don't imagine analgesics are freely handed

out by the staff. I lived in northern New York where the lake effect snow was horrendous. One memorable December, we had over 100 inches. And so, so cold. The snow banks were so high that it became physically impossible to heave a shovelful up that high. Paths and sidewalks became narrower and narrower as time went on.

These guys should be getting at least minimum, ideally what the going rate is. And fine--hold it in a trust for them.

Back then, the prison wasn't allowed to compete with the local businesses. Things may have changed since then.

[TheKentuckian]

122. What does = hard labor then?

[Brickbat]

50. Just because people want to do it doesn't mean it's not exploitive.

[HERVEPA]

11. Did you get lost? Do you need directions to FR?

[Romeo.lima333]

39. the ones who need directions are the people who say that they will not vote for hillary if she's

the dems nomination

[Octafish]

74. Right. What's that saying about the company one keeps?

Appearances at Kennebunkport, July 30, 1983: Bill Clinton, George Bush & George Wallace



Wallace and his third wife, the former Lisa Taylor, meet with Vice President George Bush and Arkansas Gov. Bill Clinton at a lobster bake at Bush's residence at Kennebunkport, Maine, July 30, 1983. The third Mrs. Wallace, whom the governor married in 1981, was 30 years his junior and half of a country-western singing duo, Mona and Lisa, who had performed during his campaign in 1968. CREDIT: AP/Birmingham Post.

SOURCE: http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/george-wallace/13/

George Wallace did all he could to oppose President Kennedy and his administration's policy to integrate public schools, including the University of Alabama.

Something else important to know: Wallace’s running mate in 1968 was Gen. Curtis LeMay, who exhibited insubordination to President Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crisis. President Kennedy, former CIA analyst Ray McGovern noted, exhibited signs of stress over the possibility of a military coup.

PS: Welcome to DU, Romeo.lima333!

[HERVEPA]

116. Learn a little history about George Wallace

In the 1980s Wallace renounced his segregationist ideology and sought reconciliation with civil rights leaders.

In 1982 he sought a new term as governor and won the election with substantial support from black voters.

He retired from politics in 1987 because of ill health.

[Octafish]

135. You are so right. That surely negates the evil he did as governor in 1963.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/jfk-faces-down-defiant-governor

[HERVEPA]

138. Of course not. But it can explain Bill Clinton being in a picture with him in the 80's

The man did seem to have a genuine conversion. It can happen. People can change.

[leftynyc]

12. Complete agreement

Just because some on DU can't imagine wanting to get outside the prison walls for a few hours, even if it's to do hard work, doesn't mean there aren't hundreds who feel differently. This isn't a fucking country club, it's prison and that's what they get paid to work in the laundry or the kitchen.

[LanternWaste]

22. Like the Gulag Archipelago, but covered with American Awesome Sauce to take the sting out of it...

Like the Gulag Archipelago, but covered with American Awesome Sauce to take the sting out of it...

[sharp_stick]

26. Yup

50 guys that volunteer to clear snow is exactly the perfect parallel to the life experiences of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.

I remember when he wrote how pissed he was when this happened to him in Ekibastuz.

[LanternWaste]

27. Documentation on it being a voluntary program is found where...?

Documentation on it being a voluntary program is found where...?

Awesome sauce!!!

[Fred Sanders]

43. Folks might also not know that "voluntary work", while a prisoner, has a different meaning.

[Egnever]

65. How so?

[Shrike47]

8. If they paid the prisoners more, they would also charge them room and board.

And probably, the cost of supervising them.

Prisoners all over the country work for a pittance. Most would rather work than not.

[Comrade Grumpy]

42. And most would rather be paid more than a pittance.

[Egnever]

10. I would be willing to bet every single one of them volunteered

Prison sucks you would be surprised how good it feels to get outside even to shovel snow

[WillowTree]

15. There you go taking a positive outlook on something again.

Some people never learn.

[Go Vols]

18. yep

[HappyMe]

19. You are probably right about that.

A chance to leave the prison, earn a little money for your account.

[olddots]

14. is this place still DU ?

eom

[onethatcares]

21. and once they get out of prison

since they are already used to making .20 an hour we should work it somehow that they stay there.

Don't want no prisoners or crime doing folk around me, uh, uh.

Maybe we should just give them a break and keep their voting rights away from them forever. I mean, hell,

who knows what they'd do with the vote.

[brooklynite]

28. Nobody's being forced to take the work...

...how much prisoners should be paid if they do work is a social and budgetary question, but if they're not being required to take on the job, it should be their choice.

[yeoman6987]

29. My pity party ended. Sorry but I am not in the outrage

Mood for this. Glad the students and transportation folks are getting 30 bucks an hour....well deserved.

[lpbk2713]

31. A day's labor won't even buy a cup of coffee in some places.

Something terribly wrong here.

[B2G]

32. Why the hell should they be paid?

We're already paying for their room, board, healthcare, counseling, etcetcetc.

WTH?

[Fred Sanders]

54. Further punishment of prisoners is not a progressive ideal.

Just not enough punishment, ever, for any one in prison? Where they are totally without liberty?

From where 95% are released? After paying their debt to society.

Punishing prisoners more is not a progressive concept.

[DesMoinesDem]

60. It's not further punishment. It is escape from their punishment.

They choose to shovel snow to escape from the punishment of being in prison. Allowing prisoners an escape from punishment by doing something productive and giving them a feeling of worth is a progressive concept.

[Fred Sanders]

62. Loss of liberty is the only punishment for prisoners, anything else on top is not a liberal ideal.

I repeat.

Loss of liberty is the ONLY punishment and it belongs ONLY to the sentencing judge.

Once you lose your liberty there is to be no other punishment for the same crime.

It is a constitutional and liberal thing.

Not to mention a human rights thing.

[DesMoinesDem]

64. THIS IS NOT A PUNISHMENT. It is escape from their punishment.

It's almost like you didn't read my post at all. It also seems like you don't understand why prisoners VOLUNTEER to do this work.

[Fred Sanders]

66. If you agree loss of liberty is the only punishment you will see there is still no liberty.

If you do not then you are right.

[DesMoinesDem]

68. Your posts don't make any sense.

They give the prisoners an option to work, and some take it. They like it. And you want to take it away from them. That's about as regressive as it gets. Shame on you.

[Fred Sanders]

69. You do not agree loss of liberty is the only punishment? Shame on you.

Considering this some kind of treat....shovelling snow in a chain gang at 0 degrees. How fun.

Where do I sign up?

[DesMoinesDem]

71. Still not making any sense. Afraid to actually respond to my posts?

[Fred Sanders]

72. Ditto.

[DesMoinesDem]

73. LOL

[guillaumeb]

97. I previously posted a link at #53

you might be interested in the link.

My church social justice group is doing a number of forums on racism. The research I have been doing is eye-opening to say the least. The way that racism is bound up in every aspect of American society and the American Empire is no coincidence.
I would appreciate a response, if you wish, with your thoughts about the link.

Thanks, and thanks for your insightful comments.

[Logical]

85. Wrong board I think. nt

[Capt. Obvious]

91. and rape kits

What's not to be envious of these freeloading layabouts.

[dilby]

44. Why is no one upset that the Students and Union workers are doing slave work?

I mean if we are going to be upset about Prisoners doing this work we should be just as upset that we are having students and union workers doing the same work. Or is this because of the pay thing? And if you are upset that they are making 20 cents to shovel how do you feel about them being paid 5 cents to fold laundry or make furniture?

[KamaAina]

46. Because they're getting paid thirty bucks an hour

which is over ten bucks more than I'm pulling down here in the cube. That's hardly slave labor!

[Fred Sanders]

56. The amount of lack of reading comprehension in the poster you replied to is as awesome as some

"Liberals" on the thread demanding prisoners be punished more and more.

[KamaAina]

47. Um, no.

I'm appalled, actually.

[Fred Sanders]

52. Sorry, my error. Deleting.

[Thinkingabout]

70. This is a time of God made disaster, such as hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, etc.

People have volunteered for many years and though the weather is severe outside the conditions in which people have volunteered like Katrina the outside temperature was 103 right after Katrina and there was still volunteers working for free, not even $.20 an hour. I would almost bet the prisoners who worked are truly volunteers and if they are getting paid 20 cents an hour it probably goes on their books to be spent later. We expect our national guard to help in emergencies, probably gets paid much more an hour but not a lot and we just expect this from them.

I think it is shameful to use the words such a slavery in connection to prisoners or others shoveling snow in Boston. No the prisoners are not free to go but they are not free to go without the snow. They should be praised for their work, it may be just the opportunity for them to see how volunteering in the community is a good thing. Get past this slavery connection, think about the good the folks in Boston may be receiving, perhaps elderly folks who could not open their doors and someone helped.

[ghostsinthemachine]

78. Keeps em healthy, gets their lungs going

so what if it is cold, I gotta get to work dammnit.

[KamaAina]

80. Welcome to DU!

Since you're new, you may not know that we have a thingy. Type a colon, then sarcasm, then another colon, no spaces.

[ghostsinthemachine]

88. Thusly

[KamaAina]

89. You got it!

[840high]

94. Welcome to DU.

[Capt. Obvious]

79. Prisoners fight for this kind of work

When I was doing a stretch a job was posted for tarring the license plate factory. Well I was friends with a long timer named Red who was known to procure items from time to time for a price (he got me a pretty sweet rock hammer) and he had certain ins with some of the guards. So when they were pulling the names for the roofing job wouldn't you know it, me and some of the fellas I know were some of the names called.

That was some sweet slave labor we had. I even got the head guard to supply us some cold beers (long story) for our efforts.

[KamaAina]

81. You did time?!

That'd make an awesome OP!

[Capt. Obvious]

82. It would make a great short story

and even better long movie.

[ScreamingMeemie]

84. I've got a Rita Hayworth poster for you...

Or, these days, you'd probably fancy Kate Upton.

[KamaAina]

86. Thinking of being his pen pal?

[Glassunion]

121. The sound of the wind as it blew over them was somthing akin to a sonic boom.

BTW... How is Zihuatanejo Mexico this time of year?

[Capt. Obvious]

131. The weather is perfect for working on my boat

[Chemisse]

87. I think they should kick the pay up a bit - but not by much.

Maybe 1 or 2 dollars an hour.

But other than that, so long as they are volunteers I have no problem with this at all. It costs a very large sum to house these people.

I wish that prisons were set up like the old county farms, where the inmates worked on a regular basis. That is how you contribute in a positive way. It's not healthy to just hang around year after year.

[Man from Pickens]

96. Slave labor is alive and well in America

Mass incarceration was their end run around the 13th Amendment.

[Ramses]

100. jails and prisons have been using slave labor for a long time

Its a huge industry and a real stain on this country and how it treats the largest prison population on the planet

[TheKentuckian]

117. All prison labor should be banned, too much incentive to create a slave class and

a complete lack of surplus demand for labor.

At this stage in our development all it does is lower wages and reduce potential opportunity for the workforce. There will likely never be a surplus demand for labor again.

[brooklynite]

137. So, just keep everyone in their cells all day?

[TheKentuckian]

145. I said nothing of the sort. There are all kinds of things to do out of the cell besides labor.

Study, exercise, arts, hobbies, socializing, take them on field trips if they aren't high risk.

Let's get them through high school and college for those with the aptitude to help them succeed and less likely to return.

Let's provide some constructive outlets.

[madinmaryland]

124. Yeah!! Boston Strong Douchebags show their true spirits.

Fuck them.

Do a doobie and get caught. FUCK YOU

[KamaAina]

139. Aw, c'mon, man!

It's a blizzard, not a football game!

[bhikkhu]

126. I always kind of liked shoveling snow

I think if I was in jail I'd probably volunteer for that - out in the clean air and all. Maybe I'm just missing snow, as we haven't had much of it in the past three winters here.

[Cha]

128. I see there's two very diverse opinions on this.. I guess I would

ask the prisoners who volunteered what they think of it. "20 cents an hour" is awfully low.. you'd think they could come up with more than that.

I certainly understand the argument that getting out outside and breaking the monotony would be worth it.

[RedCappedBandit]

133. Holy shit this thread is shameful

More and more I need to double check that I'm on DU.

Fuck.

[Sunlei]

134. so the private prison collects the $30 an hour and pays out 20 cents to the labor?

Prisons have a long, long history of 'renting out' workers.

Slavery is legal in the USA, and plenty of contract-labor management take full advantage of this high-profit system.

[brooklynite]

136. UNREC

Misleading, unless you have evidence that there's a "private prison" involved.

[Sunlei]

140. you really think the 'prison boss' offers 20 cent an hour 'workers' to the 30 an hour city job?

The USA has always exploited persons for slavery. Slavery never ended because it is still legal for prisoners.

Why do you think America has the most persons in prison then the entire world combined? It's profitable.

Amendment XIII

Section 1.

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

[brooklynite]

141. Explain how the work is either slavery or involuntary servitude

The prisoners are in prison. We can argue about whether the terms are merited, but neither of us know what the crimes involved were.

The prisoners are not (unless you evidence to the contrary) obligated to do the work. They can stay in prison, where food and shelter are provided.

If they choose to do the work, the payment is a factor they can take into account, along with being outside and other factors.

In any event, nothing in your argument has to do with Private prisons.

[Sunlei]

142. you have a lot of USA history to catchup on. start by searching the rise of for profit prisons.

Then go back to when slaves were first 'free' and find out what happened with the USA prison system and the rise of cheap Corporate labor. Our major industries worked people to death they 'rented' from prisons.

I know it's a shock but it is our history. Somehow our country needs to free the slaves for real.

Here's a good documentary based on facts and written records.

http://www.pbs.org/tpt/slavery-by-another-name/watch/

[brooklynite]

143. You keep throwing out meaningless slogans...

...cheap corporate labor? This is the City using volunteers to deal with a local emergency?

...for profit prisons? The public transit agency is paying people to work, including prisoners from the public prison.

...worked people to death? Nobody's requiring the prisoners to do the work in the first place, and nobody has indicated that the work is more than manual labor (which non-prisoners seem happy to do as well).

[DeSwiss]

144. K&R

- This fucking society sucks. We don't deserve this planet.

"I don't mind being accused of being an 'escapist.' On a planet that increasingly resembles one huge Maximum Security prison, the only intelligent choice is to plan a jail break." ~Robert Anton Wilson

[Bonx]

147. How many prisoners have broken backs so far ?

More than the people doing the same work for the $$ ?

[KamaAina]

148. Here's a thought:

Put the $30 an hour, or most of it, into an escrow account so they'll have nest eggs when they get out. This should go for all forms of prison labor.