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Fri Apr 27, 2012, 11:50 AM

Would An Extra $10,784 Help Your Family?

Wow, that’s not chump change!


Found on the National Partnership For Women & Families’ Facebook page

31 replies, 2419 views

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Arrow 31 replies Author Time Post
Reply Would An Extra $10,784 Help Your Family? (Original post)
Playinghardball Apr 2012 OP
raps Apr 2012 #1
dkf Apr 2012 #2
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #3
Freddie Stubbs Apr 2012 #9
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #11
Freddie Stubbs Apr 2012 #12
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #13
Codeine Apr 2012 #15
Freddie Stubbs Apr 2012 #17
nadinbrzezinski Apr 2012 #22
Spike89 Apr 2012 #20
SoCalDem Apr 2012 #30
Cleita Apr 2012 #4
dana_b Apr 2012 #5
sudopod Apr 2012 #7
dkf Apr 2012 #21
sudopod Apr 2012 #27
sudopod Apr 2012 #6
JHB Apr 2012 #8
laundry_queen Apr 2012 #10
cyberswede Apr 2012 #14
LiberalFighter Apr 2012 #16
Starry Messenger Apr 2012 #19
dkf Apr 2012 #24
Starry Messenger Apr 2012 #31
LanternWaste Apr 2012 #23
tkmorris Apr 2012 #25
LeftyMom Apr 2012 #26
snooper2 Apr 2012 #18
MrScorpio Apr 2012 #28
Nye Bevan Apr 2012 #29

Response to Playinghardball (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 11:54 AM

1. If my wife hadn't

 

left me and actually had a job before she left it probably would have.

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Response to Playinghardball (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:03 PM

2. So should men take a pay cut then?

 

To fund an increase for women? What is the proposed remedy? Are all women supposed to get a raise and increase the payrolls?

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Response to dkf (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:08 PM

3. In countries with pay equality

Pay is the same. I realize this is a hard concept to comprehend.

In some areas of the US it is the same, read the military. They are not paying sergeant joe or Jill, they are paying an E-5 with so many years of service.

This is the way it should be all around, but I guess you would never agree this is good...clue, it also increases buying power of that family.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #3)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:34 PM

9. Which countries are those?

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Response to Freddie Stubbs (Reply #9)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:43 PM

11. Europe

Look at Norway for example, and Germany.

But heck USA, USA, USA!!!!!

We are not number one.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #11)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:48 PM

12. Equal? Or 16.4% less?

Equal Pay Day: Women in Europe still earn 16.4% less on average than men

Brussels, 02 March 2012 - Women across the EU continue to earn an average of 16.4% less than men, according to new figures released by the European Commission on European Equal Pay Day. This is the second Equal Pay Day at European level following its launch by the European Commission on 5 March 2011 (see IP/11/255). The EU-wide event marks the extra number of days that women must work to match the amount of money earned by men. The European Commission wants to raise awareness about this gender pay gap across the EU. This year’s Equal Pay Day focuses in particular on employers and comes ahead of International Women's Day on 8 March.

"European Equal Pay Day reminds us of the days and hours that women have been working 'for free' since 1 January. The principle of equal pay for equal work is written in the EU Treaties since 1957. It is high time that it is put in practice everywhere," said EU Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding, the Commission’s Vice-President.

The latest figures show an average 16.4% gender pay gap in 2010 across the European Union. They confirm a slight downward trend in recent years, when the figure was around 17% or higher. The rate ranges from around 2% in Poland to more than 27% in Estonia.

The gender pay gap – the average difference in gross hourly earnings between women and men across the economy as a whole – is persistently high, with considerable differences between countries and sectors. It reflects the problem of balancing work and private life: many women take parental leave and have part-time jobs. Despite the generally slightly positive trend, there are Member States where the gender pay gap is widening, such as Bulgaria, France, Latvia, Hungary, Portugal and Romania.

more: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/12/211&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

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Response to Freddie Stubbs (Reply #12)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:53 PM

13. Have a good day

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #13)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 01:06 PM

15. In other words "I was wrong, but I can't admit such a thing." nt

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #13)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 01:08 PM

17. I'm terribly sorry that I posted facts which conflicted with your worldview

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Response to Freddie Stubbs (Reply #17)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 01:50 PM

22. Not conflicted with world view

But whatever, have an excellent day.

We got lots of wrk to do in this country. But we are exceptional...

Best comment I heard today on the radio generally speaking, "we are Rome with better plumbing."

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #3)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 01:16 PM

20. But, that is not how the stats are compiled

I'm 100% behind equal pay and gender should have no bearing on pay. However, you are correct that an E-5 salary is an E-5 salary whether you are a man or a woman, but it is a lot more complicated than that. The military is an excellent example, but for both ways of looking at the issue. An alternate method would be to average all the male salaries paid in the military and compare that amount to the average female salary--You'll probably find a "pay gap" pretty close to the national average.
There are at least 3 huge variables in the gender/pay issue and solutions aren't as easy as mandating equal pay. The first variable is very contentious, but lets stay with the military example for consistency. My arbitrary 1st variable is job/career selection. Base pay may be equal, but there are extra benefits available for soldiers in active combat areas--there are limited opportunities for women in combat areas compared to men. In the civilian workforce, an analog might be the high-paying jobs on a crab boat in the Bering Sea--no one denies that the jobs are dangerous and very physically demanding and therefore should pay well. There may be discrimination in hiring for those crab boat jobs, or it might be that women are too smart in general to risk themselves in that manner for a few dollars. More subtle, the same dynamic is seen in education (an area where pay grades are generally standardized like the military). More men (per capita) pursue administrative jobs within schools, they also tend to gravitate toward the higher grades and specialized curricular areas (where pay is higher. Women, for many reasons, dominate in the lower-paying elementary classrooms.
A second variable is probably as contentious--leave of absences. The military, live civilian employers must grant leaves for pregnancy. Men and women can both qualify, but women tend to take longer leaves (understandable) and a significant number choose to not return to the workforce when they've exhausted their leave. In the military, they don't care if you are 19-years old with 2 years experience, or 23 with the same experience--you are both probably the same rank/pay scale. By the time the 19-year old becomes 23, if he or she hasn't taken a maternity leave--they will almost certainly outrank the 23-year-old who took time off for a family. It doesn't matter if you are a man or a woman--taking a year or two away from your career in your 20s will put you maybe 3 years farther behind your peers.
Value discrimination. It is really a second-level discrimination event but really tough to get a handle on. This may happen in the military, but is more common in the civilian world. "Traditional" female careers are typically paid less than traditional male careers. Comparisons are difficult and assigning values is hard, but the classic example is nursing pay vs. doctor's pay. A male nurse probably makes the same salary as a female peer and a female doctor probably earns the equivelent salary as her male peers. However, because most nurses are still female and most doctors male--there is a gender gap in pay. Maybe it is more difficult to become a doctor, maybe there is more pressure/responsibility--but the question is how much should the differential be and how much is the current differential colored by gender issues?
The simplified "women make .70 on the dollar" stats are alarming, but there is a lot more to the topic of fair pay than most people are willing to admit. The military example is very good in that it is very easy to show women have pay parity and just as easy to show that men get paid considerably more on the average than women. Once you realize that, you begin to see that the issue is almost as difficult to frame as it will be to fix.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #3)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 03:51 PM

30. and here in the USA, when people are in union jobs, the pay rates are published

and known to all.. men & women get paid based on the prevailing wage for the job done, and their level of experience.

Unions protect wages....and that's why so many narrow-minded, greedy bosses hate unions so much.

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Response to dkf (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:10 PM

4. Maybe CEOs need to take a pay cut. n/t

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Response to dkf (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:15 PM

5. all women who are not paid the same amount

as their male counterparts for the same job/expertise should have their pay increased - yes. I can't believe you even asked that.

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Response to dana_b (Reply #5)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:25 PM

7. You can't just go ladling out social justice all willy nilly!

Think of the costs!

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Response to dana_b (Reply #5)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 01:46 PM

21. I doubt all corporations would increase their payrolls like that.

 

Let's say you are given a mandate to make pay equal but given no extra funds to do so. How do you implement this?

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Response to dkf (Reply #21)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 03:08 PM

27. I suggest firing all of the libertarians. nt

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Response to dkf (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:25 PM

6. I think your subtlety mechanism has a low battery.

lol.

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Response to sudopod (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:33 PM

8. none installed

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Response to sudopod (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:38 PM

10. HA!

now I need a new keyboard.

We have all noticed.

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Response to sudopod (Reply #6)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:56 PM

14. *snork*

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Response to dkf (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 01:07 PM

16. Women should get the same pay as men

with the same experience, education, job requirements and expectations. It would not apply from company to company but it should within companies.

Why should men get paid more than women for doing less or poorly than women on the same job? The same the other way too of course.

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Response to dkf (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 01:13 PM

19. Are you even for real?

*facepalm*

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #19)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 01:57 PM

24. It's easy to see the problem. Not so easy to see a solution.

 

If you just bring up female pay, that would mean a significant increase in payroll costs. That doesn't sound feasible.

More realistic is a mostly static budget with reallocation of funding to adhere to a law I would think.

So my point is what is the solution and how realisitic is it?

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Response to dkf (Reply #24)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 04:32 PM

31. It's dead simple.

Pay women the same as men. Take it out of the profit margin of the business owner. Make it law.

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Response to dkf (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 01:54 PM

23. Equality...

"What is the proposed remedy?"

Equality.


We've done it a few times before in our nation's past-- though those instances were bitterly opposed also, and the opposition made quite a stinker out of equality for some time then too...

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Response to dkf (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 02:00 PM

25. If neccessary, YES

There is nothing whatever that can excuse paying a woman less to do the same work. Nothing.

I wish I could say that I'm surprised you would suggest otherwise.

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Response to dkf (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 02:59 PM

26. Just once could you mix it up and fall on the side of fairness and decency?

Every post I ever see from you is some racist, sexist bullshit that would sound more at home on FR.

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Response to Playinghardball (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 01:10 PM

18. How do they figure the numbers here and in Europe as above?

Do they just take the combined take-home income of all women in the country and men in the country and figure the difference?

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Response to Playinghardball (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 03:31 PM

28. Fuck yeah! nt

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Response to Playinghardball (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 03:50 PM

29. Lawyers earn more than elementary school teachers.

And most lawyers are men, while most elementary school teachers are women. So this contributes to the pay gap. So do we

1. encourage more women to become lawyers, or
2. encourage more men to become teachers, or
3. raise teachers salaries, or
4. lower lawyers' salaries?

The pay gap is mostly caused by different career choices, women working fewer hours than men, and women taking more time out than men to raise families.

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