This is shocking and stunning and I bet nobody on DU could see this coming.

[Botany]

John McCain is on "Face the Nation," saying that we should get more
involved in the Ukraine, Moldova, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and Yemen militarily*
and that President Obama doesn't know what he is doing and he is
sending out the wrong signals.

* No fly zones, boots on the ground, training missions, shipping weapons to
different countries and groups, and so on.

Can somebody please tell John "love that war" McCain, that he lost in a landslide in 2008?

[polly7]

1. Wherever there's a hint of escalating any conflict anywhere there's resources to be had,

you can be sure McCain will be there, salivating .... front and center.

[brush]

4. And the thing about it is, he was not very good at war

He crashed five planes — one crash on a carrier created a huge fire and blast that killed sailors — and he was captured for God's sake.

Seems he would be averse to war.

[polly7]

7. I agree, not a very good warrior ...... but he's eager to spill the blood of innocents on all

sides to make up for his own lack of success. I can't even look at him without my stomach turning.

[former9thward]

10. So our POWs were "not very good at war".

I wonder what your record was?

[treestar]

22. Well ok, crashing 5 planes is better than no experience at all

but the point is that he's always for more war.

[former9thward]

24. When I post facts on this people accuse me of "defending" McCain.

As if facts have their own politics.

1) You are correct, he favors military intervention in places we should not be.

2) As far as the "5 plane crashes":

McCain did lose two Navy aircraft while piloting them. One crash was found to be be McCain's fault, the other due to an engine failure of undetermined cause.. A third was destroyed on the deck of the carrier USS Forrestal when a missile fired accidentally from another plane hit either the plane next to McCain's or, less likely, his own aircraft, triggering a disastrous fire that killed 134 sailors and nearly killed McCain. A fourth plane was lost when he was shot down over North Vietnam on a bombing mission over Hanoi.

A fifth alleged "crash" turns out to be a misinterpretation of a flight accident that did not result in the loss of the aircraft. McCain admitted to causing that incident through "daredevil clowning" but returned safely.

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/09/mccains-plane-crashes/

[VanillaRhapsody]

27. How is that not a terrible record non the less?

He also graduated 2nd from the bottom of his class....

[former9thward]

30. I don't attack POWs for being shot down.

As the poster did that I was replying to. What is your record?

[VanillaRhapsody]

33. 20 yrs a Military Brat....and yours?

THIS particular POW seems to have a hard-on to send everyone else's kid into a meat grinder...

"Bomb bomb bomb...Bomb Bomb Iran"


Indeed.

[former9thward]

44. I was in the Air Force.

No one's "brat" as if that is military service. I was at Hoa Lo prison in Hanoi in November, 1992, when I was an AF gofer as part of John Kerry's delegation investigating Vietnam POWs/MIAs. I saw the conditions of that prison and I think it is disgusting to attack POWs as "failed at war" as the poster did. You disagree.

[KingCharlemagne]

53. I think you're giving McCain a major pass by calling him a 'POW'. First of all, there was never

any formal Declaration of War between the U.S. and Vietnam. Semantics aside and on a more philosophical level, 'war' presumes a military conflict between two roughly military equals like, for example, the USSR vs. Nazi Germany or the U.S. vs. the People's Republic of China in Korea after we advanced above the 38th parallel. But what we were doing in Vietnam was unprovoked military aggression, invasion and occupation and hardly a 'war.' That the Vietnamese -- a mostly agrarian society of peasants -- resisted our brutal and naked aggression and occupation was fully their right, as anyone invaded and occupied without a U.N. Security Council resolution is entitled to. But they were victims, not co-equal combatants.

Does that make McCain a 'war criminal'? A minor one, I would argue, since the Air Force in which he served killed some 1-3 million southeast Asians before it was all over. But because McCain was never a POW properly speaking, he was hardly entitled to treatment befitting a formal POW. He's lucky he wasn't put on trial and executed for crimes against the Vietnamese people. (IIRC, NVA troops rescued him from being summarily executed by Vietnamese villagers when he was shot down.)

If you want to dignify McCain's service by calling him a 'POW,' no one is stopping you. But those of us who know our history see him as hardly entitled to the respect and deference his imprisonment by the Vietnamese has earned him in the years since.

[former9thward]

59. Well if you are going down that road ....

Get back to me when the Democratic Party adopts your position and calls POWs was criminals.

[KingCharlemagne]

61. I am going down that road. Just because the Democratic Party as a Party does not find it

politically expedient to state the truth does not wash away the truth, just as Republican denial of anthropocentric climate change does not make the world flat. McCain was a war criminal. I wish the Vietnamese had put that supercilious little prick on trial for his crimes after he was apprehended.

ETA: I was not really concerned with the Dem Party's position on McInsane (grist for another thread methinks), so much as I was with my own assessment of his record and your framing of his record as a 'POW'.

[brush]

38. You're wrong

I didn't attack McCain for being shot down.

I stated facts about his poor war record.

What are you disagreeing about about his record?

And what is your issue? Are you for starting more wars like McCain?

[former9thward]

45. Poor war record?

1) You are correct, he favors military intervention in places we should not be.

2) As far as the "5 plane crashes":

McCain did lose two Navy aircraft while piloting them. One crash was found to be be McCain's fault, the other due to an engine failure of undetermined cause.. A third was destroyed on the deck of the carrier USS Forrestal when a missile fired accidentally from another plane hit either the plane next to McCain's or, less likely, his own aircraft, triggering a disastrous fire that killed 134 sailors and nearly killed McCain. A fourth plane was lost when he was shot down over North Vietnam on a bombing mission over Hanoi.

A fifth alleged "crash" turns out to be a misinterpretation of a flight accident that did not result in the loss of the aircraft. McCain admitted to causing that incident through "daredevil clowning" but returned safely.

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/09/mccains-plane-crashes/

What is your record at war since you seem to know all about it?

[brush]

48. Seems you googled his record, and like I said . . .

it's a poor record. And if you've read some of the other responses on this thread you know I'm not the only one who thinks . . . no, who knows that.

And I have no record at war. I've stated that I'm against war. I think there are better ways to settle differences.

What about you? You seem to be for war.

Most people on this site don't need Captain Obvious to tell us McCain is a warmonger.

[former9thward]

49. Ahh, the old "sure you are on right site" post.

Always used when the poster has run out of arguments. BTW the Democratic Party is not against war. Are you sure you are in the right Party?

[JonLP24]

52. I remember and I was still sort of new here during the 2008 election

I joined July, 2008. Anyways, I always took the position that drug addiction isn't a moral failing & always more of a health problem than anything else. Especially in how it relates to abuse of prescription drugs that begin as a result from being legitimately prescribed them.

Cindy McCain said something I didn't agree with but there was so many "she's on the pills" or use of her history of prescription drug abuse to indict her again and she made an unfair claim about someone Obama or related to the 2008 campaign so I'm not sure why I did it but I objected and was swarmed like I have never been swarmed before or since.

The one post I remember well is, "John is that you?" post. I live in Arizona, I clearly don't like him as he obsesses with building the "dang fence" and pushing for more border patrol which led to a use of existing tunnels such as one to Douglas, AZ for example. Bales of marijuana was catapulted over the fence. Fence was scaled with ladders. There are existing portions though much not exist as the fence was even built in Rio Grande waters. They have also even blown up a portion of the "dang fence". Also Cartels have had little trouble finding Border Patrol agents they can bribe, in part because they cut corners on the background check process to hire & send more Border Patrol officers to the border. Even I knew of the existence of tunnels while John McCain was obsessing over the "dang fence".

Clearly I'm not a fan but was accused of when of being a fan like you wouldn't believe when I was merely just trying to be fair.

[former9thward]

57. I know the feeling...

[brush]

54. So you are for war?

I asked that a couple of times bus you seem to be avoiding answering.

And you also didn't answer King Charlemagne's post. What's up with the silence.

[former9thward]

60. What is up with " the silence"?

Not all of us sit around our computers breathlessly waiting for a reply. Some of us have lives....

I am for just war as is the Democratic Party. In my mind the Revolutionary War, Civil War, WW II and the initial attack on Afghnistan were just wars. Arguments can be made about other wars we have been involved in.

[JonLP24]

67. The odd thing about Afghanistan being a just war

and the likely reason is the Wahabbi cult the Taliban likely & did provide the other Wahabbi cult Al-Qaeda "safe haven" which is global organization with many affiliates & different names which both groups and especially the Taliban received financial assistance from the original (direct descendants from the man who made the "pact" with Al-Wahabbi) Wahabbi cult "House of Saud".

The Saddam had something do with 9/11 made no sense in light he ran a secular functioning government and allowed far more freedoms than the Wahabbi cults, given that he was a major human rights violators but small potatoes compared to the human right violators south of his border.

You could make the same claims that were made against Iraq and use them against Saudi & Eastern Arabian Peninsula Governments and you'd be right. I'm not sure about the WMD but we do sell or trade them billions worth in fighter jets & top shelf military equipment. You would have also been doing their civilian populations a favor as long as you got the F out right after taking out the 'House of Saud' and let them do what they want with their own oil. It also would have the added benefit of cutting off a major funding supply, Taliban nor Al-Qaeda (The Mujahideen Army) doesn't even exist without the investing & political power the 'House of Saud' provides.

Hell Iraq was put under sanctions that lasted for decades because had the nerve to launch an attack against a country controlled by a dominant minority Wahabbi cult much like we did in Afghanistan.

[Bandit]

56. The Democratic Party is most assuredly against war

Unless of course there is absolutely no other alternative. I would venture to say that the American People as a whole are against war. War is a last resort for the Democrats, while it seems to be the first resort for Republicans. What is your record? How do you stand?

[former9thward]

62. The American people are not against war.

If they were we would not have been in so many of them. A majority of the American people have supported EVERY war, except the Revolution, at the beginning. That is a fact. I think the Revolution, the Civil War, WW II and the initial attack on Afghanistan (I was there in 2002) were just wars. Arguments can be made about some of the others.

[brush]

70. Wrong again. The majority didn't support the Iraq war.

I march in NYC and DC in '03 against that war with tens of thousands.

And those weren't the only demonstrations against that war.

And you must be very young not to know the demonstrations against the Vietnam war were massive and almost daily occurrences.

[former9thward]

71. Tens of thousands in a nation of 315 million.

Bush II had huge poll numbers after the invasion of Iraq. At some point people tired of it but they definitely supported the war in 2003.

The Vietnam crowd loves to think they stopped the war. Sorry, you did not. Americans supported that war until almost the end. Poll numbers show that.

Bush's Iraq approval ratings were quite steady, with an average of 54%, prior to the start of the war in March 2003. Immediately following the initiation of military action in Iraq, Bush's approval on Iraq spiked to 71%. It increased to 76% after the fall of Baghdad in mid-April. A month and a half after Bush announced the end of major combat in Iraq on May 1, 2003, his approval rating on Iraq decreased to 63%.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/18097/iraq-versus-vietnam-comparison-public-opinion.aspx

About six months after Johnson began large-scale U.S. involvement in Vietnam in 1965, Gallup found just 24% of Americans saying it was a mistake to send troops, while 60% said it was not. At least a plurality of all Americans continued to say it was not a mistake until July 1967, almost two and a half years after the United States had increased its military presence in Vietnam. In that July poll, a plurality still supported the notion that it was not a mistake to send troops to Vietnam, by a 48% to 41% margin.

The tide began to turn by October 1967, when more Americans said it was a mistake to send troops to Vietnam (47%) than said it was not (44%). For nearly a year, this pattern persisted.

Finally, in an August 1968 poll, Gallup found for the first time that a majority of Americans, 53%, said it was a mistake to send troops to Vietnam. This was three and a half years into the war.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/18097/iraq-versus-vietnam-comparison-public-opinion.aspx

[cwydro]

34. McCain was a clown.

Brat who was promoted because of his father.

Not a good pilot from what I've read.

[brush]

25. I'm anti-war, didn't go to war, won't go to war, and don't advocate sending troops to war. nt

[former9thward]

31. Given that resume

I guess you are the best at judging who "is good at war".

[brush]

37. WTF? Are you advocating for war?

What's your point?

[former9thward]

43. What's my point?

I think it is disgusting that you say people "failed at war" when they got taken as POWs. Try it sometime and let's see how you do.

[brush]

46. Think what you want

McCain is a warmonger and he is continually at it.

Having been a POW you'd think he'd be averse to war.

[atreides1]

64. He didn't say "people"

He was discussing one individual...John McCain!

Just because someone was a POW doesn't give them a free pass from criticism, especially when they seem to want worldwide perpetual war!

And that goes for Feinstein as well...for all we know she's jumped on this band wagon because business has been slow for her husband's construction company!

I have 13 years active duty, United States Army, deployed to Desert Storm. Not a very long conflict, but enough to convince me that McCain doesn't have a clue!

[former9thward]

66. Here is what s/he said:

"and he was captured for God's sake." To the poster that was proof beyond doubt that "he was not very good at war. That means being captured is proof someone is "not very good at war" -- not just McCain. You notice the poster has not denied it.

[brush]

68. Of course it was just McCain

Just as my words say.

What's hard to understand about that?

[former9thward]

69. What does being captured have to do with

"not being good at war"? Please explain that Mr. War Expert.

[brush]

72. I'm done expaining things to you.

Pls. have the next knife in the drawer respond to me.

[Bandit]

55. wasn't it because of McCain that the military had to revise how it treated people

that had given in to the enemy and did what they wanted for propaganda reasons. I believe there used to be harsh treatment for POWs that gave in to the enemy and divulged information, but because of McCain that was changed. He spilled his guts and signed everything the enemy wanted him to sign.

[alarimer]

58. I don't blame him for that; I would have done the same thing.

No one can ever know exactly how they will react in a situation like that. It can't be taught, either.

[former9thward]

65. The only people who say that are far RW websites

that hate McCain. Nobody who was there with him says that. In fact they say the opposite. And no, the military has never said people being tortured must never say anything. They are not that stupid. In Korea POWs were tortured and signed statements saying they were war criminals. It was not just a Vietnam thing.

McCain was tortured because he refused release when it was offered him. The Vietnamese offered to release McCain early because his father was commander of our Naval forces in the Pacific. McCain said no and that is when the torture started. To this day he can't raise his arms above his shoulders because of it and needs someone to comb his hair.

[hfojvt]

13. he has a small talent for war

[2naSalit]

16. I was just thinking of that very

episode!!!

[SummerSnow]

2. I was watching McClown this morning too on FTN .he loves war.

he wants a war /invasion with Iran so bad he's drooling for it. He was using his popular fear-mongering for war-mongering .

[Botany]

9. I only lasted less then 4 minutes

Good God in Butter, John, STFU you lost.

[Cha]

36. Tell that to the US Sunday Corp Mediawhore Gasbags R US.

[LawDeeDah]

11. and Hillary thought/thinks(?) he'd be a better President than Obama.

[Hekate]

41. It's abundantly clear you don't like her, but could you post a link for that assertion?

Otherwise it comes off looking like you pulled it out of your ... thin air.

[Jefferson23]

3. A maverick for war..he rarely disappoints. n/t

[fredamae]

5. Nearly All in the GOP

and far too many "dems" Love Every "War"...Especially the War on Drugs, The War Against The Very Young, The Very Old, The Very Broken (vets, injured workers etc), The Very Poor, All Minority Groups, The War Against Womens Rights/Existence/Purpose = War Against Americans, In America, Waged by Americans and "the people" Do Not Want To Wage Any War...by Majority, imo.

Manipulate by Hate and Fear = Control = Corporate Profit that Trickles Wealth Down to Those Who Make "it" All Happen.
Nationally And Internationally...in my opinion...of course.

[rbrnmw]

6. McCain never met a war he didn't like

[n2doc]

8. Except the War on Poverty n/t

[LeftishBrit]

12. As if Bush's warmongering had made the world any safer.

[forsaken mortal]

14. re

Always amusing how these bloodthirsty cowards always cry for more war then say there isn't enough money to help the disabled or feed school kids. Cruel, stupid, thoughtless bastards.

[2naSalit]

17. Indeed!

Welcome to DU.

[Duppers]

20. tiny quibble

McCain served in Vietnam. However you're so very correct in assuming most are cowards.

Their motive for funding these insane wars is greed>.<

[Salviati]

15. Wait, John McCain is on a sunday morning show advocating for war?

I think that means we can narrow the timeframe down to sometime between the big bang and the heat death of the universe...

[Ykcutnek]

18. It's called "Just another Sunday." nt

[Initech]

19. I'm truly scared that if we elect a Jeb Bush or Mitt Romney we will start World War 3.

[Bluzmann57]

21. Could someone please tell the networks not to have him on EVERY week?

[spanone]

23. mccook has been spewing that shit since the american people elected President Barack Obama

[underpants]

26. Save Moldovia!!! You realize that McCain is lining up his lobbying/board position at mil.contractors

[liberal N proud]

28. McCain is the biggest warmonger in congress

Being chair of the Armed Services committee makes him a dangerous pawn of the military industrial complex.

[greendog]

29. Someone should ask McCain if Obama's policy toward 'the situations' in Canada, New Zealand, and ...

Denmark is aggressive enough.

While they're at it they could ask him if the size of the Costa Rican military is a concern.

[libdem4life]

32. His first recruit stands "at the ready"...you betcha!

[Laffy Kat]

39. Dementia is a sad thing.

McCain should have gracefully retired years ago. Really, he's at the point where I almost feel sorry for him. Almost.

[JEB]

40. Won't reverse ace McCain ever learn to keep

his mouth shut?

[GeorgeGist]

42. Sad, sorry little man.

Still trying to make up for Vietnam.

[JonLP24]

50. I'm actually reminded of a labor job I worked with a Vietnam vet during the 2008 election

We both live in the state he represents so take that for what its worth. He said and I remember it well, that "McCain is a bit of a warmonger and I like that about him" but stated he was voting for Obama because he felt McCain would continue the economic policies of the Bush administration & we were both working a minimum wage temporary job so he had a very good reason to be concerned about that.

[JonLP24]

47. The same guy who proposed to stay a 100 years in Iraq

like we did in Germany.

[shenmue]

51. And where are we going to get all this money, Senator McAsshole?

Do you have a trillion dollars up your butt?

[KamaAina]

63. If he loves war so much,

why doesn't he shut up and play Risk? That way he could attack all the countries he wanted to.