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Wed Apr 25, 2012, 04:37 PM

 

Dept of Labor: Kids can't work on family farms....

A proposal from the Obama administration to prevent children from doing farm chores has drawn plenty of criticism from rural-district members of Congress. But now it’s attracting barbs from farm kids themselves.

The Department of Labor is poised to put the finishing touches on a rule that would apply child-labor laws to children working on family farms, prohibiting them from performing a list of jobs on their own families’ land.

Under the rules, children under 18 could no longer work “in the storing, marketing and transporting of farm product raw materials.”

“Prohibited places of employment,” a Department press release read, “would include country grain elevators, grain bins, silos, feed lots, stockyards, livestock exchanges and livestock auctions.”

The new regulations, first proposed August 31 by Labor Secretary Hilda Solis, would also revoke the government’s approval of safety training and certification taught by independent groups like 4-H and FFA, replacing them instead with a 90-hour federal government training course.

Rossie Blinson, a 21-year-old college student from Buis Creek, N.C., told The Daily Caller that the federal government’s plan will do far more harm than good.

“The main concern I have is that it would prevent kids from doing 4-H and FFA projects if they’re not at their parents’ house,” said Blinson.

“I started showing sheep when I was four years old. I started with cattle around 8. It’s been very important. I learned a lot of responsibility being a farm kid.”

In Kansas, Cherokee County Farm Bureau president Jeff Clark was out in the field — literally on a tractor — when TheDC reached him. He said if Solis’s regulations are implemented, farming families’ labor losses from their children will only be part of the problem.

“What would be more of a blow,” he said, “is not teaching our kids the values of working on a farm.”



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/25/rural-kids-parents-angry-about-labor-dept-rule-banning-farm-chores/#ixzz1t5QcU2lZ

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Reply Dept of Labor: Kids can't work on family farms.... (Original post)
Bennyboy Apr 2012 OP
LiberalFighter Apr 2012 #1
cali Apr 2012 #6
obamanut2012 Apr 2012 #12
cali Apr 2012 #16
JoeyT Apr 2012 #41
NCTraveler Apr 2012 #79
spanone Apr 2012 #103
Warpy Apr 2012 #2
jtuck004 Apr 2012 #3
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #47
TheCruces Apr 2012 #62
LanternWaste Apr 2012 #74
kctim Apr 2012 #4
Romulox Apr 2012 #5
obamanut2012 Apr 2012 #13
Romulox Apr 2012 #14
smirkymonkey Apr 2012 #7
cynatnite Apr 2012 #8
jtuck004 Apr 2012 #19
cynatnite Apr 2012 #25
jtuck004 Apr 2012 #37
cynatnite Apr 2012 #40
dkf Apr 2012 #54
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #55
dkf Apr 2012 #57
LanternWaste Apr 2012 #75
joeglow3 Apr 2012 #102
jtuck004 Apr 2012 #83
snooper2 Apr 2012 #71
Voice for Peace Apr 2012 #9
obamanut2012 Apr 2012 #11
Dokkie Apr 2012 #15
cynatnite Apr 2012 #17
etherealtruth Apr 2012 #29
ag_dude Apr 2012 #66
Hassin Bin Sober Apr 2012 #77
Voice for Peace Apr 2012 #42
Bake Apr 2012 #73
Dokkie Apr 2012 #91
Bake Apr 2012 #97
belcffub Apr 2012 #101
obamanut2012 Apr 2012 #10
sadbear Apr 2012 #18
riderinthestorm Apr 2012 #20
joeybee12 Apr 2012 #21
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #22
Maeve Apr 2012 #69
lpbk2713 Apr 2012 #23
underpants Apr 2012 #26
lpbk2713 Apr 2012 #38
riderinthestorm Apr 2012 #27
belcffub Apr 2012 #36
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #61
belcffub Apr 2012 #63
joeglow3 Apr 2012 #105
DefenseLawyer Apr 2012 #24
Odin2005 Apr 2012 #28
bluedigger Apr 2012 #34
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #44
HiPointDem Apr 2012 #30
EthclCtzn Apr 2012 #32
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #46
cynatnite Apr 2012 #31
Saving Hawaii Apr 2012 #49
Ruby the Liberal Apr 2012 #33
Saving Hawaii Apr 2012 #50
mythology Apr 2012 #35
EmeraldCityGrl Apr 2012 #39
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #43
Tunkamerica Apr 2012 #45
EmeraldCityGrl Apr 2012 #48
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #51
Tunkamerica Apr 2012 #56
steve2470 Apr 2012 #52
steve2470 Apr 2012 #53
pinboy3niner Apr 2012 #58
steve2470 Apr 2012 #59
steve2470 Apr 2012 #60
ProSense Apr 2012 #67
Remmah2 Apr 2012 #64
cali Apr 2012 #65
Remmah2 Apr 2012 #72
cali Apr 2012 #92
Remmah2 Apr 2012 #98
obamanut2012 Apr 2012 #81
Remmah2 Apr 2012 #99
Maeve Apr 2012 #68
Taitertots Apr 2012 #70
progressoid Apr 2012 #76
tilsammans Apr 2012 #78
Bennyboy Apr 2012 #80
Hugabear Apr 2012 #82
former9thward Apr 2012 #86
ProSense Apr 2012 #87
belcffub Apr 2012 #93
former9thward Apr 2012 #106
PoliticAverse Apr 2012 #84
Curmudgeoness Apr 2012 #85
ProSense Apr 2012 #88
Synicus Maximus Apr 2012 #89
jwirr Apr 2012 #90
meaculpa2011 Apr 2012 #94
cali Apr 2012 #95
Upton Apr 2012 #96
Capt. Obvious Apr 2012 #100
belcffub Apr 2012 #107
FarCenter Apr 2012 #104

Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 04:44 PM

1. From what I have read I would have to support those restrictions.

But the headline is wrong to say that kids won't be able to work on family farms. That IMO is false.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 04:55 PM

6. I think it's ridiculous.

I bet far more kids get hurt four wheeling and dirt biking than working on family farms.

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Response to cali (Reply #6)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:27 PM

12. There are child labor laws for everything else

Why should farm kids not be covered?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:34 PM

16. are children truly endangered by working on family farms?

It's overreach. And are there laws about preventing kids from working in all family businesses? There are child labor laws protecting kids from doing farm work off family farms. That's enough.

My young neighbor put himself through college growing pumpkins. He was driving a tractor through his fields at the age of 14.

City people don't know shit about it.

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Response to cali (Reply #16)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:38 AM

41. Do most family businesses have the injury rate farm work does?

I grew up in a rural area and most of my family had farms of one kind or another, and it's dangerous. Virtually all of them have injuries, a few have died. Not through negligence or showing off. Just having bad luck doing a dangerous job.

If nothing else kids shouldn't be on tractors because the constant bouncing and banging is freaking rotten on your back, hips, and knees. We ban them from ATVs (Not that anyone pays attention) because ATVs are dangerous, but an ATV doesn't have a throttle lever that will make it keep driving after you fall off. Chainsaws should also be off limits.

Though now that I think about it, it's not much more dangerous than the stuff we let or even encourage kids to do for fun. (Football and cheer for example.)

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Response to cali (Reply #16)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 12:43 PM

79. "City people don't know shit about it"

I think that is exactly what is going on. People making laws who aren't intimate with the subject.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #79)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 09:24 AM

103. "City people don't know shit about it" ...bwahhahahahaa

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 04:45 PM

2. This is a bad bill

While I'd like to see little kids kept away from things that can take arms off, making them wait until 18 to see how this stuff works is insane. This bill is poorly written, a one size fits all bill that had absolutely no thought put into it.

Growing up on a farm is the best apprenticeship anyone can have to go into farming either as a career or as an income supplement.

Kids should be doing livestock feeding chores at ten. They should be driving the tractor at 14. 15 or 16 is a good age to have them learn how to wrestle sheep and cattle.

I'm afraid Solis needs a reality check on this one. Farm "employment" doesn't work the way she thinks it does. It's not only work, it's an education you can't get anywhere else.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 04:45 PM

3. This is perhaps the single most ignorant proposal I have heard in a long, long time.


What a great motivational tool to get people to vote Republican.

Because WE have a better idea. We don't let them work on the family farm, we send them to a school that insists they must go to college, where they get loaded down with loans only to find out at graduation that over half of them won't be able to get a job that pays anywhere near the return they might expect. On the other hand, now they are in debt for years to the bankers - we let this go on and then with a straght face tell people how important education is.

Phooey. One more in a string of lying, phony bastards making life harder while they talk out of the other side of their face.

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #3)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:05 AM

47. Why oh why do people consistently fall for the right wing frame over and over again.

Rush Limbaugh and his ilk truly rule our world. This has nothing to do with stopping a family's child from doing chores on a farm.

It has everything to do with restricting them from some farm occupations that, statistics have shown, for their age group, result in higher rates of injury or death.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #47)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 03:34 AM

62. You know what has the highest rate of death?

Life.

I don't see the problem with kids working on a family farm.

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Response to TheCruces (Reply #62)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 11:31 AM

74. Or riding in a car without a seat belt...?

don't see the problem with kids working on a family farm.

Or riding in a the family car without a seat belt...? As we all die from life's rate of death as your stated.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 04:50 PM

4. Dumb idea

 

and a really bad move with elections coming up.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 04:51 PM

5. Once had a High-larious argument with a DUer who swore this didn't happen to begin with.

Wonder where that poster is now?

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Response to Romulox (Reply #5)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:29 PM

13. That what didn't happen?

Kids didn't do dangerous and adult farm work?

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #13)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:30 PM

14. *Legal* child labor in the United States, and not just of the "family farm" variety.

The category includes the children of harvesters and other farmworkers.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 04:57 PM

7. They can only work as school janitors...

and we don't want their valuable time taken up doing farmwork!!

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 04:58 PM

8. That is patently untrue...

They are proposing changes...not stopping them. Farms can be very dangerous and children need to be protected.

The current rules are antiquated and need to be changed.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #8)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:03 PM

19. Protected from planting garlic? Kids need to be encouraged, not protected.


Of course, I thought the educational philosophies in the book "Summerhill" made a lot of sense too

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #19)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:30 PM

25. Kids don't need protected? Seriously?

My dad was a farm mechanic. I spent summers working on the farms of relatives. My sister and her husband own a large farm in Kansas.

We grew wheat, alfalfa, and hay. There were cattle, too.

There was plenty of large equipment which were dangerous if you did not know what you were doing. My sister and I have been fortunate to not have had serious injuries, but we had a few minor ones over the years.

Only recently were two teen boys severely injured in Oklahoma from an auger accident. Two girls in Illinois were killed in an electrical accident while working on their family farm.

Do you still think that kids ought to be encouraged?

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #25)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 11:24 PM

37. Minor injuries are inconsequential to the learning that happens.

So yeah, you bet I think they ought to be encouraged to protect themselves, supervised, and taught to grow, with supervision. Maybe they won't grow up to be the scared little adults running things now.

And, frankly, a few kids are injured or killed out of millions sounds like the odds are better han, say, life on the streets going to school in some of the other areas of the country.

The problem with protecting people from harm is that you also protect them from learning to learn. A few won't live, that's true, but they don't all live now, even in the most protected environs. And too many are a bunch of school going sheep that can't do much else.

Look at Summerhill - they had kids using table saws at 12 - a perfectly respectable age, certainly enough maturity and intelligence - and with someone who trusted them to supervise and teach them care, they turned out as great adults. All their fingers too. (If you ever get a chance, the book is by A.S. Neil. interesting take).

The same argument is used by the radical right btw- the only way to protect the kids from sex is to abstain - to protect them from it. Yet any rational adult knows that it is a biological imperative, at least in this case, and if they don't train them TO PROTECT THEMSELVES the results are far worse. And sometimes people die anyway.

If you walk away from your responsibility to train that kid on the big things, try to train them (or anyone) to protect themselves without the consequences of failure you wind up with little more than a video game operator who can't even code the dang game.

The life we have left behind, and our future, is going to desperately need people who know how to do more than go to school, and the kid that learns mechanical things, or language, or math, or agriculture, or virtually anything that requires serious thought and commitment before the others has always been and will always be at a huge competitive advantage.

We don't do kids any favors by sticking them in the closet until we get over our own fears.

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Response to jtuck004 (Reply #37)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:10 AM

40. Can you justify doing nothing with over 16,000 injured children on farms?

There has to be some regulation to help protect these kids. There is dangerous equipment that can kill. We knew a 16 year old kid who was disking in a field and when he turned too sharply, the disk hit the outer tire of the tractor and partially landed on the cab. He was almost killed. He was not licensed or trained.

What is so wrong with working to prevent these kinds of accidents? We have regulations governing other industries...why not agriculture?

Keep in mind, nothing is being taken away here. Kids will still work their family farm. There will still be 4H and FFA. Kids will still care for their animals and do plenty of chores. But when it comes to large equipment (that we wouldn't allow a kid to operate in a city), there should be regulations and limitations. This is called common sense...something we got when children worked sweatshops and were getting killed. I'd rather not be one of those repukes who support doing away with child labor laws.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #40)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:32 AM

54. How many are injured playing sports?

 

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Response to dkf (Reply #54)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:39 AM

55. So, you are advocating FOR kid injuries?

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #55)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:46 AM

57. Oh for goodness sakes.

 

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Response to dkf (Reply #54)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 11:32 AM

75. The sports that require padding?

The sports that require padding and protective gear?

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #75)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 09:22 AM

102. But still allow them to play?

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #40)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:35 PM

83. You need regulations to keep from killing a kid?

It has to be illegal, but no words on a piece of paper are going to stop accidents, stupid, or evil.

The whole "they need protection" argument is the same ignorance purveyed for keeping women subjugated, btw. It's easier to do that than respect them, to allow them to learn and strive and succeed and profit from that.

So do kids deserve any respect? Or are they weak-willed little creatures, unable to hold up their end of the stick, and gonna get hurt, can't be depended on (wait, still talking about kids, here, right?) certainly can't have any thoughts worth considering...damn, starting to sound like some schools

16,000 kids injured or killed is a tragedy. It pales in comparison to the number of kids injured or killed every year in auto accidents. More are injured or killed by choking, poisoning, drowning, or killed by their own toys or playground equipment. It's almost insignificant up against the amount of physical child abuse (also illegal) reports. It's not nothing, but it's certainly not the most pressing problem. Wanna bet there is far more tragedy among those who live in poverty here?

Maybe we should have a law that says kids can't swim until they are 26? How about not being able to eat any candy without adult supervision and only at home with a life support team available?

This attempt at social engineering is just as silly. This is nothing more than creating a whole bunch of problems out of a solution, empire building by people who may find the backlash painful.

I hope it doesn't disappoint, but OSHA, the Department of Human Services, the Labor Department, not to mention innumerable state, county, city, and workplace policies already regulate all those things. Enforce what you ave or this whole process may be seen as a joke, or worse, an attack.

What is the upside of this? Instead of shoveling manure at the neighbors 8 cow operation the kids can stay at home and watch whatever the hell (many new words can be learned from regular television now, while being entertained by rough sex scenes and abuse, and that's just on regular cable channels). That's protection?

Or maybe they will be in school, being groomed as the next group of student loan sharecroppers for the banks.

Hey, I have a thought. How 'bout the bureaucrats put on their thinking caps and come up with a way we could create 25 million jobs, or a massive vo-tech program? Get some opportunity out there so kids, who are not operating farm machinery, could get regular meals, or their parents could make enough to have health insurance, retirement, pay for college without becoming slaves to political winds?

'else they may find themselves out and these regs thrown in the trash.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #25)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:42 AM

71. Having a few kids get hurt every year on a farm is more acceptable

Then having 10's/100's of thousands MORE kids sitting on their ass watching X-Box and eating M&M's...

Maybe a better proposal would be to ensure that every kid has their tetanus shot up to date.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:08 PM

9. maybe they should have a child-labor, or child-apprentice licensing program

to ensure kids aren't working against their will or being
harmed in any way.

The child would have to be interviewed for the license
independent of parents, guardians. Kids should be allowed
to make more choices about their lives when they are
young.

Lots of kids would love to be able to work, and make money.
They should be allowed, it's good for them. It's much better
for them than most of what happens in school. So much learning
happens -- useful learning -- from working with real people
on real stuff.

But they must never be forced or harmed.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #9)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:26 PM

11. If you grow up on a farm, you work

There is no choice.

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Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #9)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:31 PM

15. I bet $1000

 

that most kids doing house chores today are doing it against their will. I guess we should investigate those cases too.

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Response to Dokkie (Reply #15)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:36 PM

17. If it puts a kid's life at risk...damn straight...

Farming is very dangerous work. These rules are antiquated and should be changed to protect the children.

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #17)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:23 PM

29. Farming is consistently listed in the "top 10 most dangerous jobs"

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #17)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:09 AM

66. You can't just say "farming" and hope to be accurate

Farming includes things from very dangerous work to feeding chickens.

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Response to ag_dude (Reply #66)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 11:52 AM

77. That's kind of the point of the legislation. Feed chickens - yes. Drive a dangerous machine - no.

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Response to Dokkie (Reply #15)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:39 AM

42. the kids should be thrown into a for-profit prison

not really

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Response to Dokkie (Reply #15)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 10:29 AM

73. Does this mean my kid doesn't have to mow the lawn?

Because people get injured doing that, too.

Stupid, stupid, stupid bill. No wonder a ton of farmers are Repugs.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #73)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 06:55 AM

91. The most gruesome

 

rescue 911 I ever watched involved an 8yr old mowing the lawn. I still remember the episode very vividly and when I have children of my own, I think mowing the lawn will be absent from the chores. I am just saying

But yea, this is definitely a stupid regulation, some people say that it is being misrepresented by the media but why even go there and allow your regulation to be misrepresented? This will only happen when you try to tinker with a system that is so much supported by the farming community. If it ain't broke, don't fix it

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Response to Dokkie (Reply #91)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 09:10 AM

97. My son is now 24.

I can count on the fingers of ONE HAND the number of times he cut the grass.

Sigh.

Bake

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Response to Dokkie (Reply #91)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 09:21 AM

101. everything is dangerous... but this fear of danger brings with it a new set of problems

I'm only in my mid 30's but grew up mowing the lawn starting around 8 and snow blowing at around 11... I talk to many of my friends who have kids in their late teens and they don't let them do these chores for fear of injury... so the first time many will do this is when they are adults, by themselves, with no help or instruction... good plan...

I see it with chainsaw even more... I ran my first chainsaw around 13... most parents won't let their kids anywhere near one... then around 30 or so when they need to use one they get injured... kind of predictable...

I have my 10 year old daughter mowing the lawn and splitting firewood this year... she can use the bow saw... couple of more years and she's be bucking logs...

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:09 PM

10. Good

I have many friends who were "farm kids," mainly tobacco, soybeans, and dairy. They were unpaid farmhands, who worked several hours a day on the family farms, including school days. They did things only adults should do, back-breaking and dangerous labor. Unpaid. We aren't talking about just some chores, like feeding the pigs and mucking out Lady's stall, or raising a prize goat for 4-H.

Certain provisions need to be made for some 4-H and FFA activities, but this would be a good law.

There's a reason why kids used to only be able to read, write, ad cipher a bit. and why they only went to school during the Winter, and then only for a few years. This was also a time when a father could legally make his sons work for him until they turned 21. Almanzo Wilder lived a long time ago, and the reality wasn't -- and isn't -- as romantic as "Famer Boy."

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:38 PM

18. Can we get a source other than the Daily Caller?

That's Tucker Carlson's e-rag. Almost like citing fox news.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:19 PM

20. My two daughters have grown up on our farm doing chores

however they are paid just like anyone else. Furthermore, if they don't want to work for us, they don't have to, they can find a job elsewhere. That feels fair to me since the work is hard, dirty and labor intensive. I pay them more than they'd make elsewhere so they have an incentive to work for me (it goes into their college funds) rather than babysit or ringing the cash register at Burger King. Both of them have chosen to work for me however (oldest is 24 and lives in another state, 15 year old at home). I see it as akin to paying an allowance as long as the kids do their daily house hold chores.

I know many other farmers whose kids worked for them under varying arrangements. Some of them got special perks (fancy riding horses, a show steer to compete etc), some knew they'd farm and treated their labor as an unpaid internship/apprenticeship, some were paid for hours worked like mine. I haven't known any farm kids who were made to work without having any compensation at all although even if that existed that's not terribly different than kids being "forced' to help with household chores is it? I mean some things you just have to do as part of the family. Some kids have to do household chores/babysitting younger siblings without getting an allowance either (gasp!)

As far as the danger, yup that's there but since we love our daughters I'd never jeopardize their safety. I believe most parents think that way as well.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:20 PM

21. How much of this is lies, how much spin, how much pulled out of their asses?

This is the Daily Caller, after all.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:29 PM

22. Link to a website that links to the proposed changes.

The pdf is 50 pages long. I don't have time to tackle the rule changes but if anyone else does, good luck!

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=WHD-2011-0001-0001

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #22)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:20 AM

69. Specifically EXEMPTS kids on their own family farms--see link inside

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:34 PM

23. This is a crock of shit and guess who is behind it.


The halfwit half-governor.






Sarah Palin says the Obama administration wants to ban kids from working on family farms. In a Facebook post Wednesday she charges that the Department of Labor is working on regulations that would stop children from doing agricultural chores that teach hard work and help feed America.

The Dept of Labor made this clear several months ago ...


However, “the proposed regulations would not apply to children working on farms owned by their parents”, says the Labor Department press release from last August announcing publication of the proposed law revisions in the Federal Register.

Palin says in her Facebook post of today that the new regs “would prevent children from working on our own family farms.” This would not appear to be correct, unless there is some definition of "family farm" we nonfarm workers aren't familiar with.



Link: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder/Decoder-Wire/2012/0425/Sarah-Palin-says-Obama-wants-to-ban-kids-from-farm-work.-Is-she-right

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Response to lpbk2713 (Reply #23)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:58 PM

26. Thank you. I heard this on RW radio on the drive home and knew there was something missing

I guessed that this was orchestrated by Big Agri to shut down what remains of family farms (mostly organic and dairy I would suspect) but now I see that they -- SURPRISE -- made the whole thing up.

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Response to underpants (Reply #26)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 12:20 AM

38. A post above tipped me off.




I knew this smelled like dead tuna when someone pointed out Tucker Carlson was used as a source.


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Response to lpbk2713 (Reply #23)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:11 PM

27. You just beat me to it. I just finished a google search debunking this

Here are a couple of links that debunk this story


http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/is-the-labor-department-barring-kids-from-working-on-family-farms-no-its-not/


And here's a press release from the US Dept of Labor, "Five Facts about the Proposed Child Labor in Agriculture Rule"

http://www.dol.gov/whd/CL/truthNPRM.htm

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Response to lpbk2713 (Reply #23)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 11:09 PM

36. this would have still affected me...

I worked on my aunt and uncles dairy doing hay, mucking stalls, milking cows, etc... started at around 8 with the milking and mucking stall... birthed my first cow at 10...

the next year we moved near another relatives farm... my first job for them was walking behind the discs and removing large rocks. Next I worked the planter... I think this was a custom machine my uncle made... had two seats and each person took turns planting...

neither farm was my parents... but both were "family farms"... once I was 15 I worked at none my family "family farms" during the summer... mostly doing hay...

more kids should do this kind of work...

edited to add... this was back in the 80's through the mid 90's... not so long ago...

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Response to belcffub (Reply #36)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 03:04 AM

61. Nope...

From the regulations:

"The parental exemption allows children of any age who are employed by their parent, or a person standing in the place of a parent, to perform any job on a farm owned or operated by their parent or such person standing in the place of a parent."

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #61)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 07:05 AM

63. ok... so what is a "such person standing in the place of a parent"

I would assume that meant something like legal guardian... otherwise couldn't anyone be "such person standing in the place of a parent"? I such a case the law is meaningless and serves no purpose...

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Response to lpbk2713 (Reply #23)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 09:25 AM

105. Do you own a farm?

My wife's aunt and uncle own a farm. They have 2 sets of cousins that also live on the land, in their own houses. All three families work for the farm and support their families. Will the kids belonging to the 2 sets of relatives living on and working with their family on the farm be able to continue to help their family?

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:39 PM

24. 30 years too late!

I worked my ass off on the farm!

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:17 PM

28. Yay, drive out more family farmers! Big Ag will love this!!!

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #28)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 09:43 PM

34. That was my first thought as well.

Other posters are pointing out that it doesn't apply to children working on their own families farm. That's good, but labor is often shared during planting and harvest, especially. This will hurt family farm's competitiveness.

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #28)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:52 AM

44. You do know, don't you that the source is right-wing?

The right wing can put "family farms" on any bit of propaganda and liberals suddenly become blind to the source and do zero due diligence investigation to determine whether the reactionaries have standing.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:28 PM

30. ridiculous. not the government's job to regulate what chores kids do within their own families.

 

this is what the admin is doing rather than prosecuting the banksters?

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #30)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 09:31 PM

32. Nope

You are incorrect. Here are the facts, and not the spin from dailycaller.
http://www.dol.gov/whd/CL/truthNPRM.htm

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #30)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:55 AM

46. Could you please provide evidence from a source other the right wing one in the OP

that these updated regulations have anything to do with children doing chores.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:32 PM

31. Here is what the Dept. of Labor has to say about this...

The Labor Department says the regulations would not apply to partially owned and operated family farms while emphasizing that the rules are intended to protect all children equally.

“Children employed in agriculture are some of the most vulnerable workers in America. Ensuring their welfare is a priority of the department, and this proposal is another element of our comprehensive approach,” Solis said in a statement when the proposal was announced.

The Labor Department notes that the fatality rate for child farm workers is four times higher than that of non-agricultural child workers.

http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/200895-senators-ask-labor-secretary-to-withdraw-misguided-farming-regulations

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Response to cynatnite (Reply #31)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:12 AM

49. Thankfully.

"The Labor Department notes that the fatality rate for child farm workers is four times higher than that of non-agricultural child workers."

As I've learned in my profession, as far as the wingnuts are concerned even that's not good enough. People should die on their jobs as result of preventable accidents. It's just that our pansy-ass society has decided that protecting people's lives is more important than the Almighty Dollah, praise be upon it.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 09:37 PM

33. Is no one else reporting on this?

I wouldn't use Tucker Carlson's rag to clean up after a dog.

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Response to Ruby the Liberal (Reply #33)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:13 AM

50. What else is there to use it for?

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 09:43 PM

35. You should really delete this post

The claim has been debunked and you're using a link to Tucker Carlson.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 12:46 AM

39. Organic farming is a civil rights issue..

and many smaller family farms are organic. This is just another hoop for
small organic farmers to have to jump thru.


It’s time to vote with our farms, gardens, and forks for an organic, sustainable, and re-localized food and farming system.

The organic food and farming movement must join ranks with the climate justice movement and the Occupy movement to bring about fundamental change, a shift of political and economic power from the corporatocracy – the 1% – to the grassroots majority. By creating a new agro-ecological system we can drastically reduce GHG emissions, and at the same time naturally sequester billions of tons of climate-destabilizing greenhouse gases, in our soils, plants, and trees, according to Paul Hepperly, New Farm Research Manager, The Rodale Institute.

This “Great Transition” in agriculture will have to be driven by mass consumer demand for farm products that are organic, locally or regionally-produced, and climate friendly.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/01/27/what-about-the-state-of-our-planet-mr-president/

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Response to EmeraldCityGrl (Reply #39)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:49 AM

43. I think before you assert that the new child labor protections would affect family farms,

I'd suggest finding a source that isn't run by a right-wing gasbag.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:52 AM

45. Your source is blatantly right-wing.

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Response to Tunkamerica (Reply #45)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:11 AM

48. I agree with everything in the article.

If I can find common ground on an issue as important climate change and
the destruction caused by Big Ag. that's a positive for me since it rarely
happens. Don't know enough about the site to argue with you, but the article
is one I appreciated.

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Response to EmeraldCityGrl (Reply #48)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:18 AM

51. Really? Because I actually read the new regulations and they don't do what the OPs right wing

rag source claims it does.

Here is a link where you can download the new regs. Please point out the ones that support the OP.

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=WHD-2011-0001-0001

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Response to EmeraldCityGrl (Reply #48)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:39 AM

56. I at least disagree with their decision to spell Buies Creek "Buis Creek". Just shows

the level of journalistic integrity of the source.

And their source is : North Carolina State Junior Rossie Blinson, from Bules Creek, North Carolina has been selected to join the 2012 National Beef Ambassador team, funded in part by the beef checkoff {beef lobbyists}. Why not say that their source is a Beef Industry Ambassador?

And they couldn't spell Buies Creek, either.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:28 AM

52. self delete nt

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #52)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:31 AM

53. Notice of Proposed Rulemaking to Amend the Child Labor in Agriculture Regulations

http://www.dol.gov/whd/CL/AG_NPRM.htm

Welcome to the Department of Labor’s Wage and Hour Division (WHD) Website on the proposed changes to the child labor in agriculture regulations.

On September 2, 2011, the Department published a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) to revise the child labor regulations to strengthen the safety requirements for young workers employed in agriculture. The current child labor agricultural hazardous occupations orders have not been updated since they were promulgated in 1970. The department is proposing a dramatic updating of these regulations based on the enforcement experience of the Wage and Hour Division (WHD), recommendations made by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, and a commitment to bring parity between the rules for agricultural employment and the more stringent rules that apply to the employment of children in nonagricultural workplaces. The proposed regulations would not apply to children working on farms owned by their parents.

The proposed updates include:

Strengthening current child labor prohibitions regarding agricultural work with animals in timber operations, manure pits, storage bins and pesticide handling.

Prohibiting hired farm workers under the age of 16 from employment in the cultivation, harvesting and curing of tobacco.

Prohibiting youth in both agricultural and nonagricultural employment from using electronic devices, including communication devices, while operating power-driven equipment.

Prohibiting hired farm workers under the age of 16 from operating almost all power-driven equipment. A similar prohibition has existed as part of the nonagricultural child labor provisions for more than 50 years. A limited exemption would permit some student-learners to operate certain farm implements and tractors (when equipped with proper rollover protection structures and seat belts) under specified conditions.

Preventing children under 18 years of age from being employed in the storing, marketing and transporting of farm-product raw materials. Prohibited places of employment would include country grain elevators, grain bins, silos, feed lots, stockyards, livestock exchanges and livestock auctions.

On October 31, 2011, the Department published a notice to extend the comment period to December 1, 2011, because of requests received to extend the period for filing public comments and the Department’s desire to obtain as much information about its proposals as possible. Interested parties are invited to submit written comments on the proposed rule at www.regulations.gov.

On February 1, 2012, the Department announced that it will re-propose the portion of its regulation on child labor in agriculture interpreting the "parental exemption." The parental exemption allows children of any age who are employed by their parent, or a person standing in the place of a parent, to perform any job on a farm owned or operated by their parent or such person standing in the place of a parent. The re-proposal process will seek comments and inputs as to how the department can comply with statutory requirements to protect children, while respecting rural traditions. The re-proposed portion of the rule is expected to be published for public comment by early summer. The department will continue to review the comments received regarding the remaining portions of the proposed rule for inclusion in a final rule.

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #52)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:48 AM

58. That's the same Daily Caller story posted in the OP

It's been re-posted all over the web, mostly (but not always) on RW sites. The article is RW distortion and spin, as noted in several posts above.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #58)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:49 AM

59. ah ok, i'll delete it then, thanks nt

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:56 AM

60. no offense but....

The Daily Caller is operated by Tucker Carlson, who is a well-known right winger. Please delete this post or at least substitute the regulations from the Department of Labor, which I and other posters have posted downthread.

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #60)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:14 AM

67. Well,

"The Daily Caller is operated by Tucker Carlson, who is a well-known right winger. Please delete this post or at least substitute the regulations from the Department of Labor, which I and other posters have posted downthread."

...who needs the "liberal media" when even Democrats are picking up RW garbage as facts? You can go to DC or National Review right now and find the right spin on any issue.

How often has it been pointed out that the Daily Caller is right wing?

I mean, its owner is a nut:

Tucker Carlson Places Blame For Country's "Grave Debt": "The Middle Class Is Addicted To Entitlements"
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201204110006

Tucker Carlson: ‘Iran Deserves To Be Annihilated’http://thinkprogress.org/security/2012/02/22/430302/tucker-carlson-iran-annihilated/

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:03 AM

64. Farm work is dangerous and underpaid.

 

I worked on an uncle's farm. Learned to drive when I was 13. A typical day was 7am until 8pm.

I learned construction, mechanics, welding, ate 1,000 pounds of dust and picked 10,000 hay splinters from my hands. My worst accident was a nail through a boot through my foot (nice and rusty.)

I could walk away any time I wanted but did like the work/experience. Farm kids born on the farm are not so lucky, indentured servants who could inherit the debt of the farm if they are unlucky. My cousin (same farm) lost a finger in machinery and suffered several concussions in his teens.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #64)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:09 AM

65. Oh please. Are you actually asserting that most kids born on farms

nothing but little drudges? What bullshit.

Anyway, thankfully, this garbage about kids not being able to work on family farms is just that; garbage. It's Sarah Palin mouthing off in ignorance- or malevolence.

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Response to cali (Reply #65)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:48 AM

72. No bullshit.

 

Technically I shoveled pig shit, chicken shit, cow shit and goat shit.

But no bullshit or horse shit. (My uncle rented the bull.)

Some people shovel manure.

Yours is theoretical, mine is based on reality.

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Response to Remmah2 (Reply #72)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 07:08 AM

92. Sorry, mine is not theoretical

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Response to cali (Reply #92)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 09:12 AM

98. Probably imaginary then. nt

 

nt

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Response to cali (Reply #65)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:08 PM

81. Yes

I know about 30 people who were farm kids, and they were worked several hours a day on SCHOOL DAYS, let alone other days. They were treated as unpaid FT farm hands. They hated it, and not one of them had any desire to go back to farming.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #81)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 09:17 AM

99. It's possible to get hurt on a farm and not be found for hours/days.

 

A neighbor friend flipped a tractor on himself and was trapped under it for 8 hours. Due to complications of cold weather exposure he died about the time rescue workers pulled him out.

My cousins use to skip school to do farm work. Not a good idea if you want to eventually get out of the business.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:18 AM

68. This is a HOAX--another faux outrage moment--read the facts, people!

The proposal from last August specifically exempts kids working on their family farms.
http://www.dol.gov/opa/media/press/whd/WHD20111250.htm

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:33 AM

70. This story is all Repub lies

Family farms are specifically exempt.

I guess the real question is... Should children's parents be allowed to force them to work for corporations and/or other people?

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 11:44 AM

76. Harumph harumph harumph!

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 12:32 PM

78. Total RW BS

Daily Caller is a conservative propaganda-spewing site. Zero credibility.

A big thank you to those here who are debunking the lies and posting the truth.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:05 PM

80. Awesome.....

 

Good debunking guys. I saw it and then heard the Mem and thought????? So good job. thanks.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:18 PM

82. As other have rightly pointed out, this is right-wing propaganda

I first saw this linked on Drudge, who is infamous for spreading right-wing propaganda. Of course, the RWers are all over this.

Please note this does NOT prevent children from carrying out all farm chores. What it DOES prohibit is children from carrying out DANGEROUS chores on farms.

Of course, to hear the RWers talk about it, you'd think that the evil commie Obama admin is going to forbid children from washing dishes or taking out the trash.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #82)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:36 PM

86. Apparently the Labor Dept. is right wing too.

Since they have withdrawn the proposed rule today and by the wording of your post that means they don't care if children do DANGEROUS chores on farms.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #86)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:47 PM

87. No,

"Apparently the Labor Dept. is right wing too."

...it simply means that they withdrew the rule under the pressure created by RW propaganda.

Very effective, create the impression that the rule is something it's not, and voila!

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Response to ProSense (Reply #87)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 07:12 AM

93. if it is not "something it's not" what is it :)

can someone explain it to me like I was a five year old... I have yet to hear exactly was what have been banned by this rule... if it was nothing then whats the big deal...

it sounded to me like I would have not been able to work on my aunt and uncles farm growing up... it was a family farm but not my family... if that is not the case then how exactly would have been banned?

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Response to ProSense (Reply #87)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 11:13 AM

106. No they withdrew the rule because it was over the top.

It was written by people who probably have never even seen a farm. I worked for the Labor Department for many years. One of the reasons my supervisor said he hired me was because of my experience in industry and unions. He said that most people they hire come straight from college with no real world experience.

If we were to accept your theory it would mean the Labor Department is willing to see kids get injured just so they don't have to put up with RW propaganda. That interpretation, not only is false, but would make the Labor Department look pretty bad. Maybe that is your objective.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:13 PM

84. Update: Labor department widthdraws proposed rule dealing with children who work in agricultural...

http://www.dol.gov/whd/media/press/whdpressVB3.asp?pressdoc=national/20120426.xml

(US Government press release included here in its entirety):

Labor Department statement on withdrawal of proposed rule dealing with children who work in agricultural vocations

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Department of Labor today issued the following statement regarding the withdrawal of a proposed rule dealing with children who work in agricultural vocations:

"The Obama administration is firmly committed to promoting family farmers and respecting the rural way of life, especially the role that parents and other family members play in passing those traditions down through the generations. The Obama administration is also deeply committed to listening and responding to what Americans across the country have to say about proposed rules and regulations.

"As a result, the Department of Labor is announcing today the withdrawal of the proposed rule dealing with children under the age of 16 who work in agricultural vocations.

"The decision to withdraw this rule – including provisions to define the 'parental exemption' – was made in response to thousands of comments expressing concerns about the effect of the proposed rules on small family-owned farms. To be clear, this regulation will not be pursued for the duration of the Obama administration.

"Instead, the Departments of Labor and Agriculture will work with rural stakeholders – such as the American Farm Bureau Federation, the National Farmers Union, the Future Farmers of America, and 4-H – to develop an educational program to reduce accidents to young workers and promote safer agricultural working practices."

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:19 PM

85. This law would not stop kids from working on the family farm.

This is hyped up by the right wingers to kill the bill.....this bill would protect the kids from working on other-than-family farms in dangerous situations, such as running heavy equipment or exposed to pesticides.

Do we really want to be outraged over preventing children from danger on for-profit farms? Don't worry kids, you can still milk the cows.

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Response to Curmudgeoness (Reply #85)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:50 PM

88. Too late

"Instead, the Departments of Labor and Agriculture will work with rural stakeholders – such as the American Farm Bureau Federation, the National Farmers Union, the Future Farmers of America, and 4-H – to develop an educational program to reduce accidents to young workers and promote safer agricultural working practices."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=615879

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 10:13 PM

89. It seems to me that most people who support this have never worked on a farm. I grow up working on a

farm, and I have been hurt from time to time, like when a string of barb wire popped, but I have been hurt worst riding a motorcycle than I ever was hurt working on a farm. I worked on my daddies place and when a neighbor needed some help we worked on his and when my father needed help they would come and help us. Kind of like a community.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 10:18 PM

90. Farm girl here - that is as stupid as it gets. How else do we learn farming. This is not something

you learn from books.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 07:18 AM

94. At 12 years old I worked...

in a NYC seat shop after school and on Saturdays. What's really goofy is that my work history is included in my SS summary. It's right there in B&W: DOB, FICA Wages, etc.

I had to give up CYO baseball, but got into a PAL league so I could play on Sundays.

I'm sure that New York had child labor laws on the books, but there were plenty of kids working in the garment center back then.

It's not just rural kids.

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 07:33 AM

96. I guess they've withdrawn it..

but just the thought is outrageous. I live in a very rural community, the kids raise their own animals through stuf like 4-H and show them off at the county fair. They all work.

Talk about being out of touch...and then some people wonder why rural areas vote Republican?..

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Response to Upton (Reply #96)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 09:20 AM

100. If you read up thread

The proposal exempted family farms.

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Response to Capt. Obvious (Reply #100)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:55 PM

107. this has been repeated several times

but what does that mean...

who's exempt :
a) the farm owners kids
b) cousins
c) grandkids
d) neighboring farm kids that pitch in...

and define family farm... many/most farms that people consider family farms are corporation for tax legal purposes...

so who was exempt again... just repeating the family farms were exempt doesn't mean anything...

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Response to Bennyboy (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 09:24 AM

104. This is stupid -- I started driving tractor when I was 6 years old

As soon as I could operate the hand clutch on a John Deere Model B.

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