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Peregrine Took

(7,412 posts)
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:23 PM Apr 2012

Anybody know exactly when did it all get so ugly - the hatred for government and public employees?

I recall when going to work for the government was considered a good thing to do - an honorable thing, in fact. The pay was modest and the benefits were comparable to the private sector. Teachers were respected - highly respected. As a child, I used to live next door to two single brothers who were postal employees and they were considered to be very upstanding members of the community.

Today, while listening to a local financial program on the radio, I heard the host all of a sudden take a sharp right turn in his rhetoric and begin lambasting of all people - librarians, then teachers, active and retired, for being over paid and "greedily sopping up huge dough in their salaries and retirement" while the state "goes bankrupt."

When did it all turn around and the actual hatred for librarians, teachers, even for police and firemen (due to THEIR "fatcat" benefits) begin?

Was it with Reagan ("the government is not your friend" attitude) in the '80's? The Bush's? I'm trying to pin it down - at least to the era.

My own opinion is that maybe if the state wasn't so busy giving big tax breaks to businesses there would now be adequate money in the state coffers, that in addition to the legislature contributing the proper amount, by law, to fund the retirement programs which it did not do.

Thanks

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Anybody know exactly when did it all get so ugly - the hatred for government and public employees? (Original Post) Peregrine Took Apr 2012 OP
First, Raygun, then talk-radio, and as times get tough, people get envious of sinkingfeeling Apr 2012 #1
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Apr 2012 #2
Specifically, when organized labor allowed Reagan to bust PATCO coalition_unwilling Apr 2012 #43
That was the legacy left by George Meany. He ended up fucking the rank-and-file. Ikonoklast Apr 2012 #129
See: Newt Gingrich circa 1993/94 n/t jaysunb Apr 2012 #3
I offered the same answer Capt. Obvious Apr 2012 #31
When taxes to pay for such things kctim Apr 2012 #4
taxes have decreased for decades CreekDog Apr 2012 #11
kctim makes up a lot of assertions. arbusto_baboso Apr 2012 #18
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Apr 2012 #21
LOL. Yep. dkf for sure. "I just don't see any probable Solomon Apr 2012 #24
A room that deals with facts does sound pretty good. kctim Apr 2012 #36
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Apr 2012 #40
Then start shooting them down. kctim Apr 2012 #51
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Apr 2012 #53
the tax one, again CreekDog Apr 2012 #91
yes, I'm sure you would recommend it to *other* people CreekDog Apr 2012 #99
Perfect! SammyWinstonJack Apr 2012 #37
I thoroughly approve this post. It tells a truth. 2ndAmForComputers Apr 2012 #70
Beat me to it. hifiguy Apr 2012 #26
That is because kctim Apr 2012 #33
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Apr 2012 #38
I do not pretend to be liberal/progressive at all kctim Apr 2012 #112
Are you against a woman's right to choose? UnrepentantLiberal Apr 2012 #123
Then you take it wrong kctim Apr 2012 #130
What stances on marriage? Are you against marriage equality? obamanut2012 Apr 2012 #125
I support marriage kctim Apr 2012 #131
What other interpretations ARE there? arbusto_baboso Apr 2012 #41
Well, there are "centrist" ones. Or so we've been told. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2012 #54
So what will you type next to "support Democratic principles?" 2ndAmForComputers Apr 2012 #68
you do support Democratic Party principles CreekDog Apr 2012 #92
Local taxes have not - that's the huge fight we are having in Rhode Island hack89 Apr 2012 #27
what is your local tax rate? CreekDog Apr 2012 #101
We still pay more than people did kctim Apr 2012 #28
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Apr 2012 #34
Let's explore WHY that is, kctim. arbusto_baboso Apr 2012 #35
How about we "explore" the question the OP asked kctim Apr 2012 #47
Actually, I would dispute that "correlation". arbusto_baboso Apr 2012 #48
Doesn't matter kctim Apr 2012 #62
Oh, but it DOES matter. arbusto_baboso Apr 2012 #63
Lighten up Francis kctim Apr 2012 #65
Why are you here? You talk just like a bagger DisgustipatedinCA Apr 2012 #55
were you in the 1% then? (note your sigline "1% er") CreekDog Apr 2012 #45
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Apr 2012 #46
I never claimed to be the 1% kctim Apr 2012 #50
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Apr 2012 #52
Never claimed to be that either kctim Apr 2012 #66
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Apr 2012 #69
So "1% er" means that you are part of the 99%? CreekDog Apr 2012 #56
It Is A Claim Of 'Outlaw' Status, Sir The Magistrate Apr 2012 #61
It's a way of life kctim Apr 2012 #67
Not Anymore, Fella: Now It Is Just A Niche Market.... The Magistrate Apr 2012 #73
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Apr 2012 #74
He Has To Buy That Leather Gear Somewhere, Ma'am.... The Magistrate Apr 2012 #76
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Apr 2012 #77
Strikes me more as a Donor Cycle sort REP Apr 2012 #102
A Self-Correcting Problem, Ma'am, That Sort Of Thing.... The Magistrate Apr 2012 #103
I see I'm in fine company REP Apr 2012 #127
I have stated neither of those things kctim Apr 2012 #111
But We Have All Moved On, Sir, To The Humor Of Your 1% Patch.... The Magistrate Apr 2012 #128
outlaw in life or on DU? CreekDog Apr 2012 #93
Perhaps one of the "Born to be Mild" crowd? GoneOffShore Apr 2012 #133
WE pay more, rich assholes don't pay enough. alarimer Apr 2012 #84
I never said that was not true kctim Apr 2012 #113
People started quitting their jobs so they wouldn't have to pay taxes? arcane1 Apr 2012 #20
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Apr 2012 #29
Who knew? SammyWinstonJack Apr 2012 #39
No, it was when ALEC and other rightwing Organizations saw all those Public Funds sabrina 1 Apr 2012 #42
Exactly. n/t Mister Ed Apr 2012 #104
thank you!!! newspeak Apr 2012 #119
That's not the whole story badtoworse Apr 2012 #60
So I see you have the RW talking points memorized. Release The Hounds Apr 2012 #71
What I posted is either true or it isn't. badtoworse Apr 2012 #89
Standard RW generalizations Release The Hounds Apr 2012 #95
That doesn't conform to the little box some have created kctim Apr 2012 #115
I'm pissed off, but not at gov't Hissyspit Apr 2012 #90
so, it's either we bring everyone up newspeak Apr 2012 #121
Um, I pay my taxes. I don't Hissyspit Apr 2012 #88
So you think taxes have gone up for Americans?? adigal Apr 2012 #118
It started with Raygun and then the movie execs BlueCaliDem Apr 2012 #5
Quibble: The "Alien" series wasn't government Occulus Apr 2012 #120
I have noticed that public employees carrying military grade weapons do not suffer this problem. HereSince1628 Apr 2012 #6
Just another way to gut the last of the middle class jobs. Iris Apr 2012 #7
When Clinton was in office Capt. Obvious Apr 2012 #8
No CreekDog Apr 2012 #9
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Apr 2012 #13
I wonder when jaysunb was born Capt. Obvious Apr 2012 #32
This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Apr 2012 #44
1943 jaysunb Apr 2012 #85
There you go Capt. Obvious Apr 2012 #106
I can only remember back to the 1940's, It was current then. Downwinder Apr 2012 #10
When St. Ronnie Raygun said this Initech Apr 2012 #12
Set In In '64, Sir, Blossomed Out In '80, Went Toxic around 2000 The Magistrate Apr 2012 #14
I believe your answer encapsulated most if not the entirety of what happened with government. Selatius Apr 2012 #30
It is the divide an conquer menu... angstlessk Apr 2012 #64
This is by far, the best answer to the OP's question Oilwellian Apr 2012 #80
I agree. This is a great explanation. n/t YvonneCa Apr 2012 #83
When Will Liberals Start To Push Back On 'Government Is Bad' Falacy of The rePIGs? mazzarro Apr 2012 #15
About the time Wall Street figured it could vulture capitalize public pension funds leveymg Apr 2012 #16
Except for the glorified military..of course. Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2012 #17
And Repuke legislators, judges, and bureaucrats who LibDemAlways Apr 2012 #116
Radio is propaganda designed to create an emotional response just1voice Apr 2012 #19
It would not surprise me if this all began with ALEC Whoa_Nelly Apr 2012 #22
it started in the 1950s with Eisenhower NewJeffCT Apr 2012 #23
Do you have one example of when Ike was involved with hatred for government and public employees? AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2012 #59
I never said he did NewJeffCT Apr 2012 #78
After Nixon used "egghead" to refer to Stevenson's baldness, Stevenson may have sought to offset AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2012 #94
"Exactly" isn't really possible Spike89 Apr 2012 #25
Not exactly a date..... Spoonman Apr 2012 #49
When hypocrisy (reagan) became Super Cool....I know government employees who hate themselves.. Tikki Apr 2012 #57
I don't get the "overpaid" part Proud Liberal Dem Apr 2012 #58
It was sometime around 1776 Kaleva Apr 2012 #72
My experience - early 1990's... WinniSkipper Apr 2012 #75
In the US? A few centuries ago. It's always been there; it's gone through periods of NYC Liberal Apr 2012 #79
the Republicans started it when they were upset that minorities were benefitting from the jobs... Baitball Blogger Apr 2012 #81
1980, thereabouts... dionysus Apr 2012 #82
Some excellent posts here, but it's not just public employees either. Populist_Prole Apr 2012 #86
I've noticed that the hatred gets worse when the economy Liquorice Apr 2012 #87
Reagan GeorgeGist Apr 2012 #96
Post-Watergate when trust in government sharply declined... Liberal_Stalwart71 Apr 2012 #97
ETA: I wouldn't discount the 60s prominence of government Liberal_Stalwart71 Apr 2012 #98
When was there a time when people thought well of government and politicians? FarCenter Apr 2012 #100
Yes, but there were limits quaker bill Apr 2012 #107
the media decides which affairs will be exposed and which won't newspeak Apr 2012 #122
A 30 year disinformation. sendero Apr 2012 #105
when the greed meisters took over the airwaves. barbtries Apr 2012 #108
It started with Reagan quaker bill Apr 2012 #109
Reagan, Thatcher and Rupert Murdoch malaise Apr 2012 #110
1965 - 1966, The Great Society. That's what they hate so much, they are Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #114
Classic blame the victims libodem Apr 2012 #117
Reagan (head of government) "The government is not your friend!" librechik Apr 2012 #124
Ronnie Reagan saying "Government isn't the solution, it's the problem" Taverner Apr 2012 #126
I would say right about the time Shankapotomus Apr 2012 #132

sinkingfeeling

(51,438 posts)
1. First, Raygun, then talk-radio, and as times get tough, people get envious of
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:26 PM
Apr 2012

others. Therefore, the Tea Baggers ideology. Hate the 'public' anything, glorify the 'private' and starve the governments by demanding low, low taxes.

Response to Peregrine Took (Original post)

 

coalition_unwilling

(14,180 posts)
43. Specifically, when organized labor allowed Reagan to bust PATCO
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:36 PM
Apr 2012

without calling a general strike to shut the country down.

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
129. That was the legacy left by George Meany. He ended up fucking the rank-and-file.
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 04:43 PM
Apr 2012

Meany became enamoured of his powerful position and relished being a 'Wahington Insider' instead of representing Labor.

He surrounded himself with like-minded drones, Kirkland and Donohue were both his acolytes; both were worthless to Labor.

Too busy sucking up to politicians of both sides instead of breaking balls.

There is a huge rift in Labor right now, my Union left the AFL-CIO over their losing tactics, and disdain for service unions.


Trumka DOES NOT represent the most Progressive factions in Labor.

 

kctim

(3,575 posts)
4. When taxes to pay for such things
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:31 PM
Apr 2012

got high enough to affect the desire for people to pay for them.

And questioning or disagreeing what your tax dollars are used for is not hatred.

arbusto_baboso

(7,162 posts)
18. kctim makes up a lot of assertions.
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:43 PM
Apr 2012

In fact, I have yet to see ONE of his posts that actually support Democratic Party principles.

And yet, somehow, he's flown beneath the radar well enough to not be tombstoned.

Go figure.

Response to arbusto_baboso (Reply #18)

 

kctim

(3,575 posts)
36. A room that deals with facts does sound pretty good.
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:28 PM
Apr 2012

Of course, dealing only with facts wouldn't be nowhere as much fun as watching people running from the facts.

Response to kctim (Reply #36)

Response to kctim (Reply #51)

 

kctim

(3,575 posts)
33. That is because
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:24 PM
Apr 2012

I actually do support Democratic Party principles, I just don't always agree with liberal/progressive interpretations of them.

Response to kctim (Reply #33)

 

kctim

(3,575 posts)
112. I do not pretend to be liberal/progressive at all
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 09:34 AM
Apr 2012

I have stated many times that, just like the majority of Dems, I am a moderate Democrat. And, other than a few extreme positions like on abortion and marriage, I am pretty much like most other Dems in the "fly-over" states liberals/progressives hate so much.

 

UnrepentantLiberal

(11,700 posts)
123. Are you against a woman's right to choose?
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 02:08 PM
Apr 2012

Are you against two people who love each other having the same rights you do? You say "extreme" so I take that to mean you are very much against both of those issues.

2ndAmForComputers

(3,527 posts)
68. So what will you type next to "support Democratic principles?"
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 06:12 PM
Apr 2012

The Clintons killed Vince Foster?

Obama was born in Kenya?

John Kerry was a coward in Vietnam?

I await with bated breath.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
27. Local taxes have not - that's the huge fight we are having in Rhode Island
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:18 PM
Apr 2012

over benefits for state and municipal workers. We can't afford them anymore.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
101. what is your local tax rate?
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 01:16 AM
Apr 2012

also, what is your state tax rate?

and what percentage of your state and local budget is employee compensation and pension benefits (and does this total include educators and retired educators)?

because i'm not sure if you didn't just latch onto Republican talking points about where your tax money goes.

 

kctim

(3,575 posts)
28. We still pay more than people did
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:21 PM
Apr 2012

back in the time the OP mentions.

[link:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29861648/ns/politics-capitol_hill/t/how-tax-burden-has-changed/|

And if your city and state taxes are also lower than what they paid, you are one lucky person.

Response to kctim (Reply #28)

arbusto_baboso

(7,162 posts)
35. Let's explore WHY that is, kctim.
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:28 PM
Apr 2012

Could it be because the federal government, under REPUBLICAN Presidents, has mandated more and more programs, but shoved the costs off on the states?

I'm pretty sure that's why.

Also, I would say that if your tax burden is greater, it is NOT on the federal end of things.

Now, if you don't have anything more than red herrings to contribute, you might want to stop embarassing yourself...

 

kctim

(3,575 posts)
47. How about we "explore" the question the OP asked
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:51 PM
Apr 2012

"Anybody know exactly when did it all get so ugly - the hatred for government and public employees?"

It doesn't ask who is at fault, it asks when. It's all the Republicans fault does not answer the question. When taxes passed the amount that people were willing to sacrifice, does.

Your individual income taxes are higher than they were back then and your social security are double what they were back then.

Back then, payroll taxes "accounted for 16 cents of every dollar of federal tax revenues. Last year they accounted for about 35 cents of every revenue dollar."

Now, do you deny there is a correlation between higher taxes and negative attitudes people have about paying them?

arbusto_baboso

(7,162 posts)
48. Actually, I would dispute that "correlation".
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:55 PM
Apr 2012

The resentment people have is for paying taxes and getting little or nothing in return for them. Except of course, for the wealthiest among us, who, ironically, are the biggest fucking whiny wimps when it comes to taxes.

Now, if you're going to go off on some sort of rant about taxation being inherently bad, you are in the WRONG place, period.

Oh, and my individual federal income taxes are LOWER. Produce some data to prove me wrong. I fucking DARE you.

 

kctim

(3,575 posts)
62. Doesn't matter
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 05:29 PM
Apr 2012

"The resentment people have is for paying taxes and getting little or nothing in return for them"

Whether it's resentment for getting nothing in return or resentment for what they are used for, the link between higher taxes and the peoples resentment about them is still there.

I mention that taxes cause peoples attitudes towards government to change and you automatically assume I believe taxation is inherently bad? Stereotype much?

I can't prove you specifically pay more in federal income taxes, for all I know you could have been a millionaire and are now a pauper. There is no reason to DARE me as if you are some kind of tough guy, all you have to do is ask.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29861648/ns/politics-capitol_hill/t/how-tax-burden-has-changed/

arbusto_baboso

(7,162 posts)
63. Oh, but it DOES matter.
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 05:34 PM
Apr 2012

If you resent higher taxes just on principle, you're likely to be right-wing.

If you just want more bang for your tax buck, you will be more left-wing.

And the difference lies in how to approach the tax rates and what to do about them.

And that article doesn't address the point I put to you.

FEDERAL INCOME tax rates are LOWER now than in 1960. The percentage of the fed budget being from individual income taxes has NOTHING to do with price of tea in China.

And as far as "tough guy" shit, then change your sig-line from 1%, you outlaw badass, you.

Pffft.

 

kctim

(3,575 posts)
65. Lighten up Francis
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 05:59 PM
Apr 2012

What does being left-wing or right-wing have to do with what the OP asked?

"Anybody know exactly when did it all get so ugly - the hatred for government and public employees?"

It doesn't matter how we approach taxes or where you think the difference lies, people have only recently started with this disrespect towards government employees that the OP was talking about. More of our paycheck goes to the government today than it did when the OP recalls "going to work for the government was considered a good thing to do - an honorable thing."

If you want to pretend everybody pays less in taxes than they used because rates are lower, go ahead. The simple fact is that more taxes are taken out of your paycheck now than would have been then.

Change my sig? Why, I'm not the one so insecure that I have to act tough on the internet.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
55. Why are you here? You talk just like a bagger
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 05:06 PM
Apr 2012

Go ahead and get this deleted; I'm sure it won't be difficult. But in addition to being factually wrong, you're talking just like a teabagger would talk, at least as far as taxes go. You're carrying water for people who not only foster, but count on both your ignorance and your hatred.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
45. were you in the 1% then? (note your sigline "1% er")
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:44 PM
Apr 2012

as your sigline says.

because if you were, your highest tax bracket is lower now than then.

and your dividends are taxed lower.

and your capital gains tax is lower.

or were you just making stuff up when you said you were in the 1%.

Response to CreekDog (Reply #45)

Response to kctim (Reply #50)

 

kctim

(3,575 posts)
66. Never claimed to be that either
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 06:04 PM
Apr 2012

We all pay for our roads, why would I claim differently or not support that?

Stereotypes really are a waste of your time.

Response to kctim (Reply #66)

The Magistrate

(95,243 posts)
61. It Is A Claim Of 'Outlaw' Status, Sir
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 05:26 PM
Apr 2012

Back in the 'Wild One' days, the American Motorcycle Association used to say that only about one percent of motorcyclists were ruffians of that sort, and the ruffians picked it up as a badge of honor; patches reading 1% became a frequent ornament on gang 'colors'.

Response to The Magistrate (Reply #73)

The Magistrate

(95,243 posts)
76. He Has To Buy That Leather Gear Somewhere, Ma'am....
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 06:32 PM
Apr 2012

People like this bring a lot of profit to some specialized entrepreneurs: 'faux bikery' takes some long bread....

Response to The Magistrate (Reply #76)

REP

(21,691 posts)
102. Strikes me more as a Donor Cycle sort
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 03:58 AM
Apr 2012

I see a lot of middle management types on their Hardly Ablesomes in jeans, t-shirts and tennis shoes.

The Magistrate

(95,243 posts)
103. A Self-Correcting Problem, Ma'am, That Sort Of Thing....
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:25 AM
Apr 2012

Your moniker always joggles me a little, recalling to my mind a French pioneer aeroplane designer, Robert Esnault-Pelterie, whose firm is generally known by his initials. Here is a picture of one of his designs, circa 1910, on display at Paris:

REP

(21,691 posts)
127. I see I'm in fine company
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 03:40 PM
Apr 2012

REP are the initials of my hyphenated name, and how I've been identifying myself since my full name was too long to slug type with. Plus I'm a huge Shaw fangirl

 

kctim

(3,575 posts)
111. I have stated neither of those things
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 09:27 AM
Apr 2012

I am just a regular guy and I gladly pay taxes as I am required.

What I did say though is that perhaps peoples negative attitudes towards government employees can be attributed to the fact that we now pay more taxes than they did when the attitude was more favorable towards them.

We can either debate why or why not that could be, or you can keep with the childish opinions you have no clue about in hopes of avoiding what was actually said.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
84. WE pay more, rich assholes don't pay enough.
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 07:27 PM
Apr 2012

And that is the problem in a nutshell.

Rich fucking assholes have gotten away with stealing this country blind and then making us turn on each other.

 

kctim

(3,575 posts)
113. I never said that was not true
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:02 AM
Apr 2012

In fact, your statement actually agrees with mine in that we do pay more and that could be the reason for the current resentment towards government employees that the OP is talking about.

If taxing them more would lessen that resentment, then I am all for it.

Stating the obvious sentiment of the people doesn't mean I disagree with you on what caused that sentiment or how to change it. In fact, AA had a brief moment of valid logic with the "not getting what they are paying for" statement.

Response to kctim (Reply #4)

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
42. No, it was when ALEC and other rightwing Organizations saw all those Public Funds
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:35 PM
Apr 2012

and set out to grab them for private Corporations. And they've been working on it for decades and mostly succeeded. As a result, we have diminished as a nation because when money is the major driving force of any nation, the people suffer.

Public money now goes to private organizations running Charter Schools, many of which are failing and mismanaging funds.

Public money is now going to Private Health Care Corporations and tens of thousands of Americans are dying because they are either being denied care when they need it, by those Corps, or they can't afford it. No other civilized country has this problem.

Public money is going to Private, many times, murderous 'Contractors' and we don't have any accounting for it. The Military is the largest Social Program in the history of the world. No one is complaining about our tax dollars going to continue to fund this program, nor to those public funds ending up in the hands of extremely questionable Private Corporations.

Now they are after the SS fund, the prize they have tried to privatize for decades.

People do not mind paying taxes for education, health, defense so long as it is spent ON those issues. But when over one third of it is going into private hands with little or no accountability, they begin to ask questions.

newspeak

(4,847 posts)
119. thank you!!!
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:31 AM
Apr 2012

Our "liberal" media has been aiding the corporations (since they are corporations) with the meme that the government squanders our money, the government employees are paid too much, the government doesn't do anything but regulate those poor corporations. Over twenty fekkin years of the same BS over and over again. Until the people in the country buy into the US vs THEM way of thinking. That the people are not part of the government-remember "we the people?"

When little boots did his obscene tax cuts my hubby's aunt was gushing about it. I told her then, that the american people would wind up paying the bill big time. As he started wars, allowed his "base" to not pay taxes and basically cut support to states, the states would have to find a way to keep their head above water, which means higher property taxes, higher sales taxes and some states, higher state income tax. It's the trickle ON effect.

But let's not "beat around the bush", the whole environment is to allow more privatization of public responsibilities; and WE will be paying more, while labor will get screwed so that those corporations can make a huge profit. It's called selling off the country one piece at a time. And as reich observed, most of these corporations are no longer american, they are global-have no interest in the health and well being of this country or its' people.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
60. That's not the whole story
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 05:24 PM
Apr 2012

The taxes in question are largely state and local taxes which have through the roof in many places. I believe a lot of the resentment is because those taxes are paying for benefits no longer available to the private sector that is paying the bill.

Does anyone here honestly believe that a private sector worker doesn't get pissed off when taxes go up and public sector workers still get a defined benefit pension and free medical? These disappeared from the private sector a long time ago.

 

badtoworse

(5,957 posts)
89. What I posted is either true or it isn't.
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 08:14 PM
Apr 2012

If you disagree with my post, then explain where I have it wrong. Calling it a RW talking point adds nothing of value to the discussion.

Release The Hounds

(467 posts)
95. Standard RW generalizations
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 10:33 PM
Apr 2012

1. The public sector has benefits but the private no longer does (or has very little)
2. That the public sector has "free" medical
3. That the public sector has a "defined" pension whereas the private is supposedly SOL (same with medical)
4. That the public workers are basically responsible for the ills if gov't

This explains it better than me:
http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/madison_360/madison-how-a-single-fiction-helps-scott-walker-and-his/article_2cfdc9a4-8b21-11e1-8f62-001a4bcf887a.html

 

kctim

(3,575 posts)
115. That doesn't conform to the little box some have created
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:13 AM
Apr 2012

Funny thing is, one of the most effective ways to level things out and lessen the resentment, is more unions and union members. Something liberals/progressives claim to be for.

newspeak

(4,847 posts)
121. so, it's either we bring everyone up
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:59 AM
Apr 2012

private and public or we all go down in the gutter? Because that's exactly what's going to happen. We either fight for decent jobs, decent benefits for everyone, ignoring the media's attempts at directing our anger at those who still have a decent job, or we all eventually wind up going down.

They've played the divide and conquer card long enough.

 

adigal

(7,581 posts)
118. So you think taxes have gone up for Americans??
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:29 AM
Apr 2012

Do you think teachers shouldn't have retirement benefits or health insurance while working? What about firefighters?? After banging up their bodies protecting the populace, should we give them benefits, or just throw them out and say, "Good luck finding a job with those bad knees and bad back and messed up lungs"? Please, share your opinions!!

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
5. It started with Raygun and then the movie execs
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:32 PM
Apr 2012

making movies that put the U.S. government in a terrible light. Think E.T., the Alien series, Commando, First Blood, Rambo, the fake Welfare Queens meme, terrifying people about the IRS audits (it made it appear as if everyone was going to be audited - at leas, that's what I got). The message was there at every level: Big Government is BAD!

Occulus

(20,599 posts)
120. Quibble: The "Alien" series wasn't government
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:57 AM
Apr 2012

It was a big- out-of-control corporation. Remember Ripley talking about "the company"?

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
6. I have noticed that public employees carrying military grade weapons do not suffer this problem.
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:34 PM
Apr 2012

Is that a clue or a symptom?

Iris

(15,649 posts)
7. Just another way to gut the last of the middle class jobs.
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:34 PM
Apr 2012

Started with union jobs and now onto government jobs.

Response to Capt. Obvious (Reply #8)

Response to Capt. Obvious (Reply #32)

Initech

(100,043 posts)
12. When St. Ronnie Raygun said this
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:40 PM
Apr 2012

"The worst words in the English language are I'm from the government and I'm here to help."

That has been the driving mantra of the GOP since about 1985.

But if you look at the damage these asswipes have done - the most dangerous words now are "Mind if I take a peek in your bedroom?"

The Magistrate

(95,243 posts)
14. Set In In '64, Sir, Blossomed Out In '80, Went Toxic around 2000
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:41 PM
Apr 2012

Last edited Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:45 PM - Edit history (1)

Vilification of 'big government' necessarily bleeds onto its workers. Beginning with the Civil Rights laws, 'big government' came to stand in many minds for 'giving my tax dollars to shiftless Negroes', and this drove things like the Wallace and Nixon campaigns, and continued as a basic Republican and rightist theme. In the early sixties, Wallace would tout 'big government', boasting of all the things he saw to government helping Alabama citizens with ( white citizens, of course ), and portrayed the hostility of 'race-mixers' and 'communists' to him as really being motivated by anger at all benefits his government gave to the poor ( white ) people of his state.

Reagan blended this with anti-unionism, and did so in a period of severe recession. People tend to forget unemployment went up to ten percent during Reagan's first two years in office. Unionized workers, particularly unionized government workers, withstood these ravages a bit better than most. But there is a 'dog in the manger' spirit that animates many people, a feeling of 'If I have it bad, why shoudl you have it better?' and this Reagan appealed to skillfully in breaking the Air Traffic Controllers Union.

BY 2000 or so, secure employment had become so rare, and wages had been stagnant so long for most people, that the spectacle of government workers with job security and good insurance and pension benefits roused jealousy, so that this dog in the manger spirit gained ever wider and deeper footing. People do feel a drive towards equality, and if they feel there is no way to level up, will express it in angry desire to see a leveling down. Since government employees are paid from tax revenues, people readily feel they are paying for people to enjoy things they cannot have, or even may have lost not too long ago, and it rankles.

Selatius

(20,441 posts)
30. I believe your answer encapsulated most if not the entirety of what happened with government.
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:21 PM
Apr 2012

Once preferential treatment for whites was challenged by federal laws, it did fracture the base of what once was considered the New Deal Coalition forged by FDR a couple decades prior. Nixon didn't help with his famous "Southern Strategy," and Reagan essentially cemented the change into a semi-permanent if not permanent scar on the body politic.

angstlessk

(11,862 posts)
64. It is the divide an conquer menu...
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 05:49 PM
Apr 2012

If they look different they don't deserve what YOU have..they are shiftless ..you are unemployed!

Oilwellian

(12,647 posts)
80. This is by far, the best answer to the OP's question
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 07:06 PM
Apr 2012

I never thought I would see the day where Americans would envy the salaries and benefits of teachers, police, and firefighters.

mazzarro

(3,450 posts)
15. When Will Liberals Start To Push Back On 'Government Is Bad' Falacy of The rePIGs?
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:41 PM
Apr 2012

I thinks part of the problem here is that rePIGs have never been forced to acknowledge that the 'government is bad' fallacy of Reagan is the most stupid and most destructive bs there is. IMO it takes for the appropriate sized government and a good and efficient government that can enforce the laws fairly to allow both government and private sectors to serve the country. Both are required and no one or the other can do a good job of running a democratic country without the other.

I am always appalled when democrats do not push back hard when the impression is given that government is bad along with the bs about business having free reign to do as it pleases. Liberals need to start pushing back on this and make the case for appropriately sized, efficient and fair minded government to coexist with a robust but decently regulated private sector.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
16. About the time Wall Street figured it could vulture capitalize public pension funds
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:42 PM
Apr 2012

and official DC -- "tax cutters and deficit hawks" in both parties - enabled that process. Reagan started some of it, and Clinton had social services privatizers on his team, but it really got rolling under Bush the Lesser. It's till rolling.

LibDemAlways

(15,139 posts)
116. And Repuke legislators, judges, and bureaucrats who
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:23 AM
Apr 2012

gladly accept a government paycheck and generous government benefits while hypocritically denouncing government.

 

just1voice

(1,362 posts)
19. Radio is propaganda designed to create an emotional response
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:44 PM
Apr 2012

Just replace the word "Propaganda" with radio in this definition of propaganda and see how well it fits:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

-----Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. Propaganda is usually repeated and dispersed over a wide variety of media in order to create the desired result in audience attitudes.

As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of political warfare.-----

Whoa_Nelly

(21,236 posts)
22. It would not surprise me if this all began with ALEC
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:55 PM
Apr 2012

writing the memes as revival of anti-union rhetoric for their politicos and wannabe politicians, as just another RW tactic of theirs to further splinter political groups for greater corporate control.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
23. it started in the 1950s with Eisenhower
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:03 PM
Apr 2012

Ike ran against the "egghead" Adlai Stevenson, who some considered too smart & too elite for the average American - that started the country down the path of denigrating smart people.

Reagan took it to another level with his attacks on unions and his famous saying that the most feared words in the English language were "I'm from the government, I'm here to help"

And, then Bush took it even further, and many of the Republics of 2012 make Bush look like an intellectual.



 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
59. Do you have one example of when Ike was involved with hatred for government and public employees?
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 05:18 PM
Apr 2012

Even one?

It was Eisenhower's Administration that developed the Interstate highway system. It was during his Administration when troops were sent to protect students during the integration of a school system. He did things that would be considered liberal today. Unless you have an example to the contrary, you should be willing to agree that he never showed any animosity towards governmental employees.

NewJeffCT

(56,828 posts)
78. I never said he did
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 06:44 PM
Apr 2012

I said that his (and his allies) denigrating of eggheads started the country down the path to the anti-intellectualism of today.

 

AnotherMcIntosh

(11,064 posts)
94. After Nixon used "egghead" to refer to Stevenson's baldness, Stevenson may have sought to offset
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 10:14 PM
Apr 2012

that by adding the connotation "intellectual" and calling special attention to himself as an egghead.

At his March 17, 1954 Harvard lecture, he reportedly used Latin to tell those in the audience,“Via ovicipitum dura est” (The way of the egghead is hard).
http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/adlai-stevenson-with-the-hole-in-his-shoe/

Reportedly a week later, Stevenson sought to create solidarity with some potential voters by joking "Eggheads of the world, unite; you have nothing to lose but your yolks.”

This seems to be the origination of the identification of the intellectual connotation "intellectual" with the word "egghead."

Although I dislike modern-day Republicans as much as anyone, I think that it is unfair to the memory of Eisenhower and to our country's history to identify the anti-antellictual antics of any third-rate actor and others with Eisenhower. A plain reading of the words "it started in the 1950s with Eisenhower" indicates that the anti-intellectualism started with Eisenhower.

Eisenhower was a good man. So was Stevenson.

The best quote from Eisenhower may have been the one when he was asked about the contributions made by Nixon to his Administration and he said something along the following lines: "If you give me a week, I might be able to think of one."

Spike89

(1,569 posts)
25. "Exactly" isn't really possible
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:14 PM
Apr 2012

There has always been a deep anti-government aspect to the American experience. We did after all break away from England primarily because of taxation. The rugged individualist meme is even older than the republic. Virtually every "big" government effort from the early whiskey taxes, to slavery, the new deal, civil rights, until today have been met with rebellion.
Today's rancor can be easily traced back to the 60s and the civil rights movement which spawned a new generation of anti-federalists who were natural allies with the always present anti-tax types. Nixon was a big-government republican, but ironically, his disgrace helped discredit government and opened the door for the anti-government forces (Reagan) to take over.
A case can be made that LBJ may have contributed by taking a very strong mandate that government could fix almost anything. The republican party of that era was almost dead, but when the left turned on LBJ's war policies, there really wasn't any group pushing the positive aspects of the great society efforts he and Kennedy had championed.

Tikki

(14,549 posts)
57. When hypocrisy (reagan) became Super Cool....I know government employees who hate themselves..
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 05:09 PM
Apr 2012

won't join the Union yet take all the benefits, vote against their own interests.
Call their jobs unAmerican, would vote to abolish many of the gov. jobs and then
cry like babies if they don't receive the next pay level a day early.




Tikki

Proud Liberal Dem

(24,396 posts)
58. I don't get the "overpaid" part
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 05:12 PM
Apr 2012

I never hear about teachers, librarians, or other public servants pulling down salaries or benefits ANYWHERE near Wall Street CEOs. There are some school administrators IMHO whom are pulling down some questionably high salaries (for their actual duties) but, in general, the outrage against public employees and their salaries/benefits is somewhat of a mystery to me. I've worked for my state in child protection services for nearly 10 years and am only pushing (close to) $40K and I've been all but priced out of anything but a high deductible health insurance plan yet some Wall Street CEOs are earning millions of dollars and public employees are the ones whose salaries/benefits people are getting upset over and governors in states across the nation are trying to cut in order to balance their budgets.



BTW did you read about an article that somebody put up last week (I think) that was saying that some states actually allow businesses to keep some tax revenues paid?

 

WinniSkipper

(363 posts)
75. My experience - early 1990's...
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 06:29 PM
Apr 2012

....and that's as it relates to NJ. The backlash against Florio's raising of taxes (Kean left a mess) gave us Whitman. People were so angry at the raising of taxes, that even the State Employees (I was one of them at the time - but voted Florio) voted for Whitman. And it was a very, very close vote.

After they had rid the world of the tax raiser, the focus became on the employees. There were a number of scandals - some legit, some BS - and The Trentonian was a ruthless publication against state employees.

NYC Liberal

(20,135 posts)
79. In the US? A few centuries ago. It's always been there; it's gone through periods of
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 06:44 PM
Apr 2012

resurgence every so often.

Baitball Blogger

(46,684 posts)
81. the Republicans started it when they were upset that minorities were benefitting from the jobs...
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 07:13 PM
Apr 2012

And about twenty years later, Independents started hating government employees because most of them were Republican types who were ready to undermine it to please the good buddy system.

Just a quick stab.

Populist_Prole

(5,364 posts)
86. Some excellent posts here, but it's not just public employees either.
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 07:44 PM
Apr 2012

I'm so dismayed at the barbs working class people throw at other working class people, whether public or private employed. The general theme I hear all too often from these type of people is that everybody but them is over paid. It's like: "If Company XYZ's workers made only 10 bucks an hour, I could get a...... ( car, plane ticket, new carpet, tires, hotel room...etc ) for a lot less..." Utterly oblivious to the fact that their own employment is in turn nourished by "those other people" having enough income to patronize the business they work for.

Such stupid short-term selfish thinking. Ignorant bastards.

Liquorice

(2,066 posts)
87. I've noticed that the hatred gets worse when the economy
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 07:50 PM
Apr 2012

takes a downturn. When the economy is doing great, you rarely hear much about government employees, who have safe jobs that don't have the same opportunities for large bonuses and raises as there are in the private sector. But when times get bad and people are looking for work, all of a sudden those safe government jobs seem like heaven and people start complaining about it.

 

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)
97. Post-Watergate when trust in government sharply declined...
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 10:42 PM
Apr 2012

then, in the 80s with Reagan Revolution and the rise of Grover Norquist and the Religious Right. Republicans implemented the Southern Strategy which pitted poor and working class whites against poor and working glass blacks.

I really believe that the demonization began under FDR but reached the pinnacle post Watergate and followed by Reagan.

 

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)
98. ETA: I wouldn't discount the 60s prominence of government
Tue Apr 24, 2012, 10:48 PM
Apr 2012

programs and subsequent backlash pre-Watergate. There has always been a disdain for the so called Welfare State, but I think it reached greatest height post Watergate and beyond.

In my personal opinion, there has always been this racialization of politics that has fueled anti government sentiment as well. Republicans use race well and know how to exploit racist sentiment, fear and resentment among the populace. The Southern Strategy represents that success.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
100. When was there a time when people thought well of government and politicians?
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 12:14 AM
Apr 2012

They have been a target of satirists, cartoonists, and columnists for as long as there have been newspapers.

quaker bill

(8,224 posts)
107. Yes, but there were limits
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:12 AM
Apr 2012

which is why there were a number of Presidents who had affairs that only became public after their deaths.

Civil servants were viewed quite well in the post war period.

newspeak

(4,847 posts)
122. the media decides which affairs will be exposed and which won't
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 11:23 AM
Apr 2012

Our money was spent on clinton's penis, but how about poppy? A scandal is meant to distract the public or allow the opposition to get what they want, even if it's against the will of the people. Our complicit media picks and chooses which scandal will be exposed and repeated over and over again. Some in the media also love repeating lies to the public, like gore invented the internet or allowing the swift boat liars public air time without a strong opposition to the lies.

If the media would have done its' job before little boots was selected, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Their faux journalists allowed alleged insider trading, drug usage, military records, driving records and his record as governor to slide. They aided the tough "cowboy" image.
Those scandals that cause harm to the american people, are exposed by brave journalists that put their lives at risk. For instance, exposing drug money laundering, insider trading, putting drugs on our streets, bribery, stealing software from a family business (that had to file bankruptcy) and banking, WS corruption. These offenses HARM the american people more than someone's sexcapades (excluding rape and pedo).

And now the media, over and over again, is airing the columbian prostitute shite and the vegas GSA-and just saw a repug ad blaming obama for the GSA thing. Already they've taken these so called scandals the media has put center stage. and made them into a repug campaign ad. I wonder how many in the government workings are still little boot's holdovers? Because, I remember the great purge by little boots, attempting to get rid of nonloyalty oath civil servants.

sendero

(28,552 posts)
105. A 30 year disinformation.
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:22 AM
Apr 2012

... campaign, with the end goal being to privatize everything so that a profit can be made from it.

And make no mistake, they are winning.

quaker bill

(8,224 posts)
109. It started with Reagan
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:18 AM
Apr 2012

and has steadily gotten worse since. Republicans do not like civil servants because they vote majority Democratic, and have done so for decades, some even have unions. It is pretty much that simple. We cannot be punsihed enough for this, which is why in FL we now have a random drug testing law for civil servants, perhaps next year they will pass random cavity searches.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
114. 1965 - 1966, The Great Society. That's what they hate so much, they are
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:06 AM
Apr 2012

willing to destroy the nation, rather than think of themselves as equals to "them".

Shankapotomus

(4,840 posts)
132. I would say right about the time
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:09 PM
Apr 2012

a one Robert Ciro Gigante appeared in New York.

Interestingly enough, did you know Mr. Gigante (a.k.a. Bob Grant) benefitted in the 1970's from something known as The Fairness Doctrine? The same doctrine conservative radio hosts are saying is evil.

Amazing what you learn on Wiki, eh?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Grant_(radio)


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