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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDid Matthew Owens deserve to be beaten severely?
That's the impression I'm getting from some of the posters here. It's not a outright condoning of the actions per se, but an 'understanding' if an epitath was used...a lack of outrage...a skepticism of the serverity of the injuries. Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I find that line of thinking disturbing to say the least.
From what I've read, there have been escalating racial tensions in the neighborhood prior to the incident. Some here claim he used racial epitaths and that triggered the beating...but I've seen nothing to indicate that. There is this, from MSNBC:
Even family and friends of Matthew Owens admit there was some tension on this street before Saturday night's event. And they say a lot of this has to do with basketball. Relatives of the victim, who live on the street, say local kids often block Delmar Drive when they play basketball. They say it's lead to some confrontations. Racial comments from both sides may have made the confrontations more toxic.
It all bubbled over Saturday night, putting Owens in critical condition with severe head wounds.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47152313/ns/local_news-mobile_al/t/delmar-attack-over-possible-racial-slurs/
And to play devil's advocate, even if he did use a racial slur, does that excuse the actions of those who attacked him? He deserved to be critically injured? If he dies from his injuries, does he deserve death as well?
Somehow, this has got to end...and each of us is responsible for stopping this sort of violence, with our actions and with our words. It seems to me that some of us have forgotten the old saying..."An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".
The events of the past several months have left me saddened and afraid for the coming years. This is not the way a civilized society functions...and it's certainly not a legacy we want to leave to our children.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Thanks for asking.
B2G
(9,766 posts)What specifically is it that I posted that you take issue with?
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...and suggest that William's point has to do with the absurdity of your rhetorical question.
There were probably other ways that you could have made your case, besides suggesting that anyone at DU would condone beating a man nearly to death.
TYY
The Magistrate
(95,237 posts)Last edited Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:03 PM - Edit history (1)
What people are maintaining in discussing this is that it is not only nonesense but racist nonesense to claim this has anything to do with the killing of young Mr. Martin in Florida, and to present it as an attack 'by blacks on whites' in revenge for that, and claim it is a harbinger of a looming wave of 'black vengeance on whites'.
The fact that the incident clearly grew out of a long-simmering neighborhood feud, and that this feud was clearly one in which race was a factor, does not, and is not advanced to, excuse the attack on the poor fellow in hospital; it is, and properly, advanced to demonstrate that any ideas this would not have taken place had there been no outcry to arrest Zimmerman for the murder of Mr. Martin in Florida are false and pernicious.
Response to The Magistrate (Reply #17)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
Bake
(21,977 posts)I read the other thread. There were many, many comments that the beating was "understandable" if Owens used a racial epithet, usually followed up with an afterthought that, of course, that wouldn't make the beating OK. One poster said Owens didn't seem to be any worse off that Zimmerman (although the OP clearly indicated Owens was in critical condition). Many commenters "smelled bullsh*t" or "called bullsh*t" on the story and discounted it entirely. I don't recall that you, Sir, were among those.
UNDERSTANDABLE that the use of a racial epithet by Owens, if true, would provoke a mob beating? Really? Are we that far gone as a society, that words--even ugly ones--provoke a MOB??
Frankly, the other thread left me feeling uncomfortable. And I think that's what the OP in this thread was saying. It's not flame bait; it's a serious question and one that needs to be asked.
Bake
The Magistrate
(95,237 posts)This '( White ) Man Beaten By Mob, In Critical Condition "Justice for Trayvon"' is the heading of the original post. It conditions, or perhaps more precisely, poisons, subsequent discussion. There is no doubt the thing was presented, by the poster, by a local news source, and by numerous white power sites and other rightist venues, as evidence blacks are attacking whites over the killing of Mr. Martin, and will be doing so more and more often, and so there should never have been even an arrest of Zimmerman, and all this is the fault of people who raised hue and cry to see him arrested.
Many members here, quite properly, have resisted this presentation. Were it not for the manner of its feeding into this right-racist dream of blacks taking vengeance on whites, no one outside the county where this occured would have ever heard about it. It is a local crime story, clearly grown out of a long-simmering feud between neighbors. It seems clear enough racial slurs have been hurled by the parties before this. The trigger seems to have been a grown man confronting several youths or children playing in the street. What was said, the manner in which this was done, is not disclosed in the reports of the incident. It is certainly possible for a grown man confronting children to behave towards them in a manner that will provoke an outraged response from family and friends. So it is certainly proper to point out what the likely actual reason for the heinous assault was, and it is certainly reasonable to speculate that epithets were hurled, possibly even hands laid on a youth, as this rebuts the claim a mob of black people materialized essentially out of nowhere to batter a white man for no other reason than to take vengeance for the killing of Mr, Martin in Florida. And people pressing the line you are attempting here need to remember the old man's growl that 'a reason's not an excuse.' Pointing out the reason why something happened, even that it could have been reasonable to expect it would happen in the circumstances, is not proffering an excuse for that something. A reason and an excuse are two different concepts, hence the existence of two separate words to communicate the two different things.
Bake
(21,977 posts)That changes things. I WAS WRONG, Sir. Next time I'll wait for the facts to come out--the rest of the story.
Anybody threatens my child with a knife? Answers to ME and the LAW. And the Law better not be late showing up.
Bake
The Magistrate
(95,237 posts)Much obliged to you.
vaberella
(24,634 posts)obamanut2012
(25,869 posts)Not an old man, and he has a rather extensive arrest record for assault, domestic violence, and public drunkenness. He seems a bit like a powder keg.
Bake
(21,977 posts)And 40 is not old.
Bake
obamanut2012
(25,869 posts)I may scream!
Bake
(21,977 posts)Bake
bemildred
(90,061 posts)and rightly so. Anger does not excuse violence, in fact that's a real good time to back away before you do something stupid, as in this case.
vaberella
(24,634 posts)Well...it doesn't make for a welcome mat.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)But the kitchen knives came into the picture after I posted that, and those change everything. Now it just looks like the kids were just standing their ground.
obamanut2012
(25,869 posts)vaberella
(24,634 posts)I know Florida is 4.
obamanut2012
(25,869 posts)vaberella
(24,634 posts)Louisiana is the no.1 state.
vaberella
(24,634 posts)That was what I had read. And the parents or adults in the case need to be arrested and brought to justice. But this Owens guy needs to also be indicted for child endangerment and possession of a deadly weapon in front of minors or something of that nature.
The Magistrate
(95,237 posts)You are quite right: anger ought to be taken as a signal to step back and consider carefully, lest you rush into something awfully stupid....
bemildred
(90,061 posts)No fun in being too obvious, although sometimes it makes little difference:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=106591
As far as anger, Sir, that is a lesson I learned the hard way, and it's served me well since I got the message. One always does better to settle down before taking any serious step.
obamanut2012
(25,869 posts)People who are saying it wasn't are, I think, not being honest with themselves. Understanding a human reaction doesn't mean you approve of it.
Would I have approved if Elizabeth Smart's father or mother had walked into the courtroom and shot their daughter's kidnapper and rapist? No, but I would understand it. Just like I understand people snapping what some scuzzball with a rap sheet full of violent charges and a history in the neighborhood: calls minor and minority kids racial slurs, brandished knives at them, and then shouts he'll lynch all the nwords on the block. 911 should have been called, because extrajudicial justice is very, very rarely the right thing to do, and the attackers should be arrested, as should Mr. Owens. But, I understand how people can snap when their kids are threatened or hurt.
I don't like having words put into my mouth nor ideas and feelings I've never had into my head and heart.
cali
(114,904 posts)and there is plenty in the original thread that's a bit much.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Although I don't expect the news to pick up on that
fishwax
(29,146 posts)I did see many people express skepticism that the initial report was not entirely complete/accurate, however.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)They tend to only think of things in black and white (Shit, that's the correct meaning I'm trying to convey but in this context maybe not the best to use)
Okay,
They tend to think of things as either off or on, or wet and dry, or hard and soft. (damn none of those really work LOL)
Anyway, people that have a hard time seeing shades of grey or something being not wet or dry but damp are the ones you are dealing with. It's okay though, it's just the Intertubes
Jumping John
(930 posts)msongs
(67,128 posts)Bake
(21,977 posts)One doesn't justify another.
Bake
Enrique
(27,461 posts)is a bit less credible now
Beacool
(30,243 posts)He was too hurt to say anything. A witness said that one of the attackers said it after they beat him up.
obamanut2012
(25,869 posts)I still highly doubt it.
teddy51
(3,491 posts)was Mr. Owens saying he was sorry for? Whatever it was, it obviously outraged the crowd! I'm certainly not condoning the beating, but did he try to run someone over or what? We don't know the entire story, obviously.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I certainly don't think he, or anyone else, deserves to beaten. Cowards do that...
Cowards also find false moral equivalencies between two wholly separate acts of violence to better trivialize or minimize one of them with the direct implication that everyone does it, hence no one demographic is victimized-- either personally or institutionally than any other. Lacking the courage of their own convictions, it's quite often the best they can do...
uponit7771
(90,193 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)People are constantly searching for these moral equivalencies and they usually end up failing in spectacular fashion.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)But what I've read has got my bullshit detector spinning at about 10,000 rpm.
Hopefully, when and if we learn the whole story, I'll still feel he didn't deserve it.
Until then I remain skeptical.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Quantess
(27,630 posts)Just kidding.
uponit7771
(90,193 posts)...I don't believe that crap for a second.
That in and of itself sounds like he was being the agitator in this situation and I'll take everything else from that perspective including giving his story the credence to believe he was beaten by a crowd of angry kids with metal and he's alive.
I would question the story from the inception after hearing he "fussed" at some kids ballin
But, sorting out this he said\they said incident is going to be a nightmare.
The murder of Trayvon Martin is a nightmare of a different variety. The fact that the alleged aggressor is not here to give his account of the events leaves a single self serving story and a dead unarmed teenager. This leaves the survivor who claims self defense rightly in a position of requiring an explanation that is fully supported by facts and evidence. The definitive result of the incident inevitably places legitimately starker suspicion on the man who admits pulling the trigger. Any time that takes place, it should require a full and credible explanation.
Of course it's more complicated.... the attack on Owens will be tainted by self serving explanations coming from both sides. All facts gathered will be called into question by both sides with stories of mutually disputed credibility. It would be nice if an indisputable set of facts emerges to confirm and deny various accounts, but I'm not holding my breath.
kctim
(3,575 posts)before jumping to conclusions this time.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)As all of the actors spin their tales, it's going to be much more complicated to unravel. One indisputable fact imo is that violence is rarely necessary. And the only deserving recipients are themselves perpetrators.
The Magistrate
(95,237 posts)What a terrible leap people made to conclude a crime had been committed when a teenager walking home from a convenience store with snacks was shot dead by an armed person who prowled the neighborhood keeping an eye out for black youths, and caught sight of the teenager and concluded immediately he was casing houses, on drugs or something, and complained about how ass-holes like that always get away....
It was a stretch that would awe even Mr. Fantastic....
REP
(21,691 posts)Plus appeal to "our children."
Very nice work.
The Magistrate
(95,237 posts)Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)I do this with many news items. For example, say a given measure is put into place by the Obama admin. I'll often ask myself what would my reaction be if that item had come from the bush admin instead? What would the reaction have been here?
I do that with cases like this too. Imagine for a second if this were a black man being beaten to near death by a mob of whites? What would the reaction be here? The same? Different? Why?
Beacool
(30,243 posts)Of course he didn't deserve a beating. Would anyone ask if Trayvon deserved to be shot?
The Magistrate
(95,237 posts)People have argued he should have complied with Zimmerman, should not have resisted Zimmerman's menacing approach, that Zimmerman had every right to confront him, and that Zimmerman's claims he had to kill in self-defense are justified.
Beacool
(30,243 posts)Neither one of them deserved to be shot or beaten.
Bake
(21,977 posts)They're in this thread too.
And for the record, if anybody is preparing to flame me, I've been pretty vocal about the Zimmerman case. Trayvon didn't "deserve" to be shot, and Zippy's self-defense claim is, I think, total b.s. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
Bake
Beacool
(30,243 posts)Too many people let their views on politics and race affect their judgment. Neither did Trayvon deserve to be shot, nor did Owens deserve to be severely beaten.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)got a new delivery for you Bea!
Beacool
(30,243 posts)I'll take it as a belated birthday gift. My b'day was Friday, but I have been sick since that day with a bad chest cold. So I could really use a bunny banky to snuggle.
Thank you!!!!
dionysus
(26,467 posts)sorry about the cold, i've had an issue or two this year myself...
Beacool
(30,243 posts)Yeah, it came out of nowhere and it's a nasty chest cold. I'm still not 100%, but I have to go to work tomorrow. I already missed two days.
I hope that you are well.
Iggo
(47,470 posts)I'd get that looked at.
obamanut2012
(25,869 posts)I have seen many say that his actions, which seemed to include racial slurs used in the past and on that day, may have been the impetus for his attack. That is not blaming him or saying he deserved to get beat up,
But, you know that already.
Bake
(21,977 posts)And I've seen a lot of it.
Bake
obamanut2012
(25,869 posts)Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)and I agree with you.
http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/23/28/man-beaten-mob-critical-condition-ar-3659891/
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)was not charged and the Police had no plans to charge him. Why do you think that was?
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)but the article never associates Owen with any racial slur.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)to justify the killing of Trayvon Martin by introducing cases like this and attempting to challenge those who are rightfully outraged over that killing, to acknowledge something, not sure what, but I think it is an effort to diminish the crime that was committed against Trayvon Martin.
It's an old trick called presenting a 'moral equivalency' argument. This man's situation is not justification in any way for the killing of Trayvon Martin. But it is being used to try to distract from that case and people see it for what it is. It is not out of concern for the man himself, it is a tactic and it's transparent, and people do not like to be manipulated.
It is also an attempt to diminish the racism that African Americans live with every day.
This one case does not in any way demonstrate that White Americans are subjected to the same bigotry as African Americans, yet this is the 'message' we are supposed to get from it. It's a 'well they do it too' argument. And it is a wrong argument.
I hope he recovers and that those who attacked him are arrested and prosecuted. The chances of that are far greater than they were that Zimmerman would ever have been prosecuted had there not been a huge public outcry.
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)s
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)part.
They are being introduced to attempt to make those who were and are outraged over that killing, look like hypocrites. They are introduced mostly on the Right btw, as an attempt, as I already said, (go to some rightwing blogs and you will have your answer, here it is more subtle) to say 'well, they do it too'. As if the bigotry against African Americans can in any way be compared to, yes tragic and wrong, incidents like this as some kind of 'proof' that White Americans suffer from the 'same' kind of bigotry. That is just plain ludicrous.
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)s
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)No, but it is the only one out there where the perpetrator was not charged with a crime and where the Police stated he would not be.
Any other cases like that? Because if you are comparing this one there is simply no comparison. First thankfully, the victim is still alive and hopefully will recover, and second, the perps are being arrested with no excuses made, nor should there be, for why they ought not to be.
There are plenty of other cases of assaults, why is this so important? Is it because the victim was White? Why should that matter if all you want to do is to show that there are plenty of murders every day in this country, unfortunately?
Find me one like this, where the victim is White, the perps African American and the police let the Perps go home with no charges even after they admit to the crime.
Or are you saying that this case is in no way meant to be related to the Trayvon Martin case?
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)we are not hearing too much about Daniel Adkins. why is that?
Trayvon Martin was brought up according to at least 2 witnesses in the Alabama case and that is one of the main reasons you are hearing about this case. Not that the cases are related.
The Magistrate
(95,237 posts)" The White community in Phoenix must be on edge considering the amount of blacks that shoot and kill Whites on a daily basis in America. Now they're doing it without being arrested for it? The White community better hope and pray for protection. They don't have a Jesse Jackson or an Al Sharpton to represent them and they sure as hell don't have any Black Panthers to put out a bounty on "22 year old black male's" head"
"Where are the bleeding heart liberals in this one... Oh thats right they only stick up for BLACK thugs..."
"Liberals are like an afterbirth. Purged as useless once used.
Beware the Gubmint man saying "Ah am heah to hep you".Cause all he's helping is your money out of your wallet.
Barack Hussein Obama - a waste is a terrible thing to mind."
"So because the victim of this shooting wasnt black the bleeding heart liberals want nothing to do with it, yep there is no issue to grandstand on nor a race riot to stir up.
Libtards make me sick."
"He was hunted down like a dog and shot down on the street by a black man. (Isn't that how Democratic Congress Members described it?)"
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)its not always pretty. you can't always shelter yourself from other people's opinion.
The Magistrate
(95,237 posts)It would have been no trouble to do, which means you chose to link to this racist swill, give it wider circulation, and bring it into this forum.
In my experience, people do things for a reason....
countryjake
(8,554 posts)Well this was fun, let's dit again sometime ~ Quniaron Bellthing
Don't Try ~ Charles Bukowski
Truth to your own spirit ~ Jim Morrison
She did it the hard way ~ Bette Davis
Curiosity did not kill this cat ~ Studs Terkel
That's all, folks! ~ Mel Blanc
The above are all epitaphs that may appropriately apply here. Tombstone inscriptions, every one.
1. A term used to characterize a person or thing.
2. A term used as a descriptive substitute for the name or title of a person.
3. An abusive or contemptuous word or phrase.
4. (biology) A word in the scientific name of a taxon following the name of the genus or species. This applies only to formal names of plants, fungi and bacteria. In formal names of animals the corresponding term is the specific name.
REP
(21,691 posts)An epitaph that is also an epithet (sometimes credited to Diogenes).
countryjake
(8,554 posts)When I put that reply up, I figured that there most likely was actually an instance when an epithet had been used as an epitaph.
I have a relatively odd name and I've spent some years trying to come up with a nice, witty epitaph that will go with it.
REP
(21,691 posts)And his proposed epitaphs are either, "This is Fucking Bullshit!" or "Res, Pls"
vaberella
(24,634 posts)REP
(21,691 posts)I'd imagine more of an extremely unfunny and reprehensible Leroy Jenkins type thing.
Rex
(65,616 posts)nt.
vaberella
(24,634 posts)logical thinking would be out of my head and I would react irrationally which would mean a metal baseball bat at whoever did that. Does that mean I condone the actions of 20 plus adults several hours after the incident? Nor do I think anyone is condoning that, premeditation of deadly actions I think is far beyond a logical stretch coming from people on this site.
But if a person here told me that if they saw a man calling their child or someone else's child a N and waved two butcher knives close to their bodies they would not react with physical force....I would call that person an outright liar. I think most people would put themselves out there to protect a defenseless and unprotected child.
obamanut2012
(25,869 posts)TheKentuckian
(24,904 posts)doing it really shrinks the margin of error.
Bacchus4.0
(6,837 posts)s
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)the beating that Owens received?
I called bullshit on the story AS ORIGINALLY REPORTED because of its use of a single word "fussed" to describe Owens' behavior prior to the beating. Does that mean I in any way condoned explicitly or tacitly Owens' being beaten? Come on, get real.
Furthermore, subsequent developments in the story now have Owens brandishing one or more knives at the black youth whose ball may have accidentally rolled up into his yard. So now we know what the media mean in Mobile, AL when they report that a white man 'fussed'. There were a lot of DUers yesterday of Southern extraction stating directly or insinuating that, hey, "fussing" is no big deal.
So I'll turn your question around: did those black children deserve to be threatened by a sociopath brandishing a knife simply because their basketball rolled up onto Owens' yard? Does calling such behavior 'fussing' defuse its seriousness? If so, why might the media wish to defuse the seriousness of Owens' behavior?
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)such as somebody claiming he did deserve it. What a fucking piece of flame-baiting garbage.
No WE are not like the fascist right wing who believe in violence. Play devil's advocate my ass. How stupid and transparent.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)but I don't think anyone deserves to be beaten severely.
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)But he certainly was asking for an ass kicking if what is being reported is true. This dude might have serious mental issues to be acting that way all the time.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)But, but (Insert allegations of malfeasance). Isn't that just the same bullshit that White people used when they lynched Black people? It is just an excuse to justify violence.
jpak
(41,724 posts)The knife-wielding racist vigilante has not been charged.
At least one of the angry parent vigilantes has been charged.
Community policing fail.
yup