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Tue Apr 24, 2012, 01:32 PM

the tradition of blaming the victim

along with the "just world" fallacy are key concepts in understanding how years of rw propaganda have shaped the national psyche. i was having a conversation with two 30-something friends, both supposed liberal and intelligent. but when they started using terms like "failed social programs of the sixites," i was floored. i realized just how damaging and insidious the reagan revolution really was, especially the so-called scholarly research that supported reaganism. i've been arguing with zimmerman apologists for a few weeks now, and clearly, there are those who blame Martin for his death, based on little more than the word of the man who killed him.
i've read that Martin should have been polite, he should not have been dressed like a thug, he should have complied, and even that he should not have defended himself, even if zimmerman confronted him....and that he had no reason to be afraid of zimmerman.

all of these excuses are attempts to dehumanize Martin; to morph him into something other than an unarmed 17 year old with skittles and iced tea walking home from the store. that's ALL he was. and it takes a lot of effort to see him as anything other than that. but some people are more than willing to make that effort, and frankly i haven't heard a cogent argument from the "blame the victim" camp. every argument i've heard is tinged with racism...and some are just blatantly racist. one of the arguments is that zimmerman was "entitled" to question Martin, and why only response to that is: how very white of you. it would never occur to me to question someone in an elevator about why they are in the building, but it has happened to me several times. it doesn't matter what i wear, or how articulate i am. someone, usually a white person, can conclude i don't belong, and feel entitled to question me. and let me tell you something: i don't "go along" with it, and i am not polite. i don't defer to their "suspicions" about my right to be somewhere they don't think i should be. if i bother to respond, i tell them to fuck off. that's the context from which i view comments like: "if he threw the first punch..." if he did throw the first punch, i know exactly why. just because you feel entitled to question someone's right to existence doesn't mean that person agrees that he is "suspicious," he could just be walking home from the store with skittles.

zimmerman is not the victim: Martin is. whether or not he was suspended from school or smoked weed: he is still the victim. whether or not he threw the first punch, he is still the victim.

liberal/progressive means this to me: it is incumbent upon me to walk my talk. it really did used to mean that. it meant educating yourself, and taking personal responsibility to change those parts of yourself that are not in line with your beliefs. it means doing the hard work internally, and you cannot do that work until you can be honest with yourself. i used to carry some resentment towards white people, until i was challenged to embrace ALL my ancestors, including the ones who owned slaves and fought for the confederacy. how could i resent my own bloodline, how could i resent the people who made my life possible?
i had to let the resentment go, and i am a better person for it.

there is a meme, a sometimes subtle one, that permeates the underlying beliefs of some zimmerman supporters: black men are inherently dangerous. zimmerman revealed this belief at his recent hearing. he said: "i didn't know if he was armed." which begs the question: why would you think he was armed? aside from the fact that zimmerman is a paranoid freak, he is most certainly not alone in believing black men are armed and dangerous. there is a belief that Martin got what he deserved, simply for being who he was...and what that means to some. zimmerman knows exactly what to say to get a portion of americans to support him: i was scared of the big, black boogeyman, just like YOU.

the use of race to divide and conquer is nothing new. but what we often fail to acknowledge is that we, those who vote democratic and consider themselves liberal...WE are not immune to the insidious racial messages that have poisoned the minds of generations of americans. and personally...i hold YOU accountable, just like i hold myself accountable. when my black friend starting talking shit about "mexicans taking over," i tell her she is being a racist fool, and she should know better. do you know why talking about race is taboo? because talking about it means we can change, and we can change it, and it serves a purpose in society. it has a portion of americans convinced that Obama is a kenyan, socialist muslim dead-set on taking their guns and forcing them to face death panels. it has members of congress pushing these lies, and feeling free to call the president a liar. it has convinced some people they should fear the president as much as any other scary black guy, it has convinced some people a 17 yo with skittles posed a threat to a armed cop wannabee looking for a fight.

that is all...here are some links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming#Just-world_hypothesis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis


73 replies, 9737 views

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Arrow 73 replies Author Time Post
Reply the tradition of blaming the victim (Original post)
noiretextatique Apr 2012 OP
Daalalou Apr 2012 #1
Zalatix Apr 2012 #2
ananda Apr 2012 #4
redqueen Apr 2012 #3
catbyte Apr 2012 #5
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #31
hunter Apr 2012 #6
blm Apr 2012 #7
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #32
sabrina 1 Apr 2012 #8
Kalidurga Apr 2012 #9
DhhD Apr 2012 #17
radicalliberal Apr 2012 #38
freshwest Apr 2012 #22
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #33
redqueen Apr 2012 #65
PotatoChip Apr 2012 #10
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #11
chervilant Apr 2012 #27
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #39
chervilant Apr 2012 #45
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #30
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #40
Doctor_J Apr 2012 #12
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #34
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #41
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #42
KG Apr 2012 #13
Jackpine Radical Apr 2012 #14
rhett o rick Apr 2012 #15
NOLALady Apr 2012 #16
Leftist Agitator Apr 2012 #18
stupidicus Apr 2012 #19
Kalidurga Apr 2012 #20
stupidicus Apr 2012 #21
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #29
stupidicus Apr 2012 #64
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #66
stupidicus Apr 2012 #69
Starry Messenger Apr 2012 #23
polly7 Apr 2012 #24
Number23 Apr 2012 #25
shcrane71 Apr 2012 #26
Spazito Apr 2012 #28
Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #35
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #36
siligut Apr 2012 #58
The Magistrate Apr 2012 #37
Iris Apr 2012 #43
devilgrrl Apr 2012 #44
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #51
Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #54
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #57
Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #61
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #62
saras Apr 2012 #46
Ecumenist Apr 2012 #47
saras Apr 2012 #49
Alcibiades Apr 2012 #48
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #52
DiverDave Apr 2012 #50
grok Apr 2012 #53
1StrongBlackMan Apr 2012 #55
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #56
1StrongBlackMan Apr 2012 #59
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #60
BeHereNow Apr 2012 #67
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #73
myrna minx Apr 2012 #63
varelse Apr 2012 #68
Lydia Leftcoast Apr 2012 #70
noiretextatique Apr 2012 #72
steve2470 Apr 2012 #71

Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 01:36 PM

1. Beautifully said. n/t

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 01:50 PM

2. Blaming the victim is the basis of social Darwinism.

 

If you are a victim it means you are weak and you are prey, and being victimized is how you play your role in the natural order.

The strong, by definition, don't get preyed on.

Basically blaming the victim stems from a mentality that has no place in a civilized society.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #2)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 02:04 PM

4. This mentality is now embedded throughout all forms of media now.

nt

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 02:00 PM

3. K&R

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 02:19 PM

5. Wow. Awesome.

Thank you, noiretextatique. You beautifully stated everything I have been feeling and arguing about this outrage.



Diane
Anishinaabe in MI & mom to Leo, Sophie, Taz & Nigel, members of Dogs Against Romney, Cat Division
"We ride inside--HISS!”

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Response to catbyte (Reply #5)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 12:50 PM

31. love your sig line

my cat recently died, but she was definitely in the cat division. i am sick and tired of those who blame the victim of this atrocity. in a sane society, zimmerman would have been arrested, remanded, and put on trial for first degree murder.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 02:19 PM

6. Well said.


.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 02:27 PM

7. Will ALWAYS proudly stand with you, noire

always

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Response to blm (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 12:51 PM

32. likewise, my friend

you are a keeper

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 02:29 PM

8. K&R

Very well said.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 02:45 PM

9. of course they have to blame the victim...

if they didn't they would have to face all the ugliness that is in their souls. They would have to admit that the social experiment of capitalism is a failure in that they still rely on slaves and paying people slave wages (in the US, China, India) is the main reason they are able to make obscene amounts of profit. They would have to admit, that their might makes right policies are just as responsible for Trayvon being killed as Zimmerman pulling the trigger. They would have to see that there would be a lot fewer trigger happy Zimmermans in the US and the world, if their culture of fear and paranoia came to an end.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #9)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:23 PM

17. Bullying at public schools is the same thing.

This same kind of behavior in given to students walking through the hall going to class or lunch or out of the building toward home. The student is holding books, etc. just trying to carry on with his/her own business until confronted and hit or pushed off the path of success/pursuit of happiness. Hate and/or racism is the reason. Hate stems from hating one's circumstances. Telling them to not pursue or stop does nothing to change the circumstances as the bully wanted to do it anyway. Using a gun means passing the point of stopping the victim's pursuit of happiness/minding one's own business; it means ending one's life by taking away their right to live, be successfully, be happy. This is just like the shooter's on school and college campuses only this happened on a sidewalk during cold weather where one needed a hoodie.

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Response to DhhD (Reply #17)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 02:05 PM

38. Despite the current reaction against bullying in the schools, ...

... there still are many adults who condone or defend it. The "blame the victim" approach has been used in many situations. One of the most notorious defenders of school bullying is the New York school psychologist Izzy Kalman, who believes that everyone is born a bully and that bullying is natural. While he blames the victim, he absolves the bully of any moral responsibility. His philosophy regarding bullying is a curious mixture of claiming to follow the moral teachings of Jesus and carefully worded expressions of social Darwinism. His parents happen to have been Holocaust survivors. Strange how someone with that sort of background can be a social Darwinist, blaming the victim.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #9)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 11:50 PM

22. +1,000

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #9)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 12:53 PM

33. i wish i could rec your post

my post is a challenge to people to face, own, and deal with the ugliness in their souls, instead of hiding behind the sacredness of their hate.

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #33)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 10:47 AM

65. "deal with the ugliness in their souls, instead of hiding behind the sacredness of their hate."

Butbutbut, it's about (Rush, Coulter, Christie, etc.)!

Indeed.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 02:46 PM

10. This excellent. Thank you noiretextatique!

Just needs a kick for more to see. (rec'd earlier)


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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 02:56 PM

11. NoireTextatique, You and I have cross posted on this topic and many others having to do with

injustice regarding people of color, the poor, women etc. and there hasn't been ONE SINGLE SOLITARY TIME I have disagreed with you. This post has to be one of the most eloquent, poignant and brutally honest I have ever read here or anywhere. I think that people need to examine themselves and look into their REAL reasons for saying and supporting the things that they have. Like you, I have always said that for me to say I have hate to anyone who is white, Asian, Native, African, meansthat I would be expressing the highest point of self loathing.

I wish that I knew how to make people understand why it is so revolting to take the stance that somehow the very fact that Trayvon was shot and murdered for no reason other than what he looked like but I suspect that they are more than aware of what it is they're promulgating. The Rot and hatred was always there, just festering below the surface but the latest turn in what passes for political discourse and the advent of the internet, ( with the attendant anonymous freedom to say the most vile things while hiding behind a screen) has made it acceptable once again.

I don't think that the things that have happened since the election of Obama, including but not limited to the murders of the college student in Pasadena, the vietnam Vet by police who were recorded using slurs and threats, growth of groups determined not only to take the country back to the 50's but to the 1850's, is no accident. The attempt at retrograding society isn't just focused on minorities but at women, the immigrant and the poor.

The only reason that I don't lose all hope is because it took a huge swath of Americans, not just black but ALL of us to back up the Susan G Komen organisation, the dearth of justice in the Martin murder case, the corporate sponsors of ALEC and many other atrocities against humanity. It's not going to be easy, (nothing worthwhile ever is) but if we continue to stay cohesive and fight the encroaching darkness, we will eventually win out. I will stand will you and the nameless millions who stand on the side of decency, justice, equality and justice.

Thank you, NoireTextatique for writing something that has been in the hearts and minds of people all across the globe.

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Response to Ecumenist (Reply #11)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 11:06 AM

27. + a gazillion

The only reason that I don't lose all hope is because it took a huge swath of Americans, not just black but ALL of us to back up the Susan G Komen organisation, the dearth of justice in the Martin murder case, the corporate sponsors of ALEC and many other atrocities against humanity. It's not going to be easy, (nothing worthwhile ever is) but if we continue to stay cohesive and fight the encroaching darkness, we will eventually win out. I will stand will you and the nameless millions who stand on the side of decency, justice, equality and justice.


I remain hopeful that the Hoi Polloi will coalesce into a solid, effective force, using non-violence and Satyagraha to help the fear- and hate-mongers heal their hearts and learn to love.

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Response to chervilant (Reply #27)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 02:38 PM

39. Thanks Chervilant, I believe that we are coalescing into a juggernaut of humanity, sick of a

pitiful few having all the means and access to health, housing and financial security. This what is behind the speed and stealth of legislation being put in place to further suppress most of the world's people. They are getting afraid because more and more of us are becoming aware of what they've been doing.

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Response to Ecumenist (Reply #39)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:48 PM

45. Backatcha,

I suspect you might appreciate this quote from Marshall Sahlins (Stone Age Economics):

The market-industrial system institutes scarcity, in a manner completely unparalleled and to a degree nowhere else approximated. Where production and distribution are arranged through the behavior of prices, and all livelihoods depend on getting and spending, insufficiency of material means becomes the explicit, calculable starting point of all economic activity. ... Consumption is a double tragedy: what begins in inadequacy will end in deprivation.

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Response to Ecumenist (Reply #11)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 12:48 PM

30. I agree...the racists and regressives are outing themselves

and the 99% are responding: we don't want to live in the 1850's. reagan duped a lot of otherwise right-thinking people, but the tide has turned, and more and more people are awakening. hence the desperation from the right.
however, i cannot embrace "allies" who i must first convince that i do not have a tail.

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #30)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 02:45 PM

40. Thank you, OMG, isn't it revolting that there are some so ignorant in the 21st century that people

like you and I aren't 2 steps away from a macaque or baboon? Some of the comments made ON THIS BOARD have not only stunned me but disgusted me to the point that I have momentarily considered "bitch slaps" aplenty. I have, in the last 3 days, participated on a thread where the OP LITERALLY alluded to a Panamanian as being a "great tree climber". WTF??!! I cannot believe the OVERT racism I am seeing on this board and the apologists that have gone out of their way to excuse them or defend their right to spew it.
SICKENING.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:04 PM

12. FWIW, many of the Zimmerman Fan Club are just following the NRA line

They're not pro-Zim as much as they just parrot whatever the NRA/Fox "News"/Hate Radio say on the subject of guns.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 01:09 PM

34. true that

you can see it in the way they all parrot the same crap. "if he had just been polite."

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #34)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 02:47 PM

41. Yes, and we know that that actually means: "if he had just been polite."=

"IF HE HADN'T BEEN SO UPPITY AND REMEMBERED HIS PLACE." That's what they're REALLY trying to say.

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Response to Ecumenist (Reply #41)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 03:40 PM

42. amazing, just fng amazing

that people are so _ _ _ _ _ _ they don't grasp how offensive that notion is, and how it totally blames the victim. then there are the people who are convinced that Trayvon was the aggressor, which makes NO SENSE given zimmerman's aggressiveness (following him, getting out of his car). "i didn't know if he was armed," is zimmerman's excuse for stalking and murdering if that isn't a racist sentiment, i don't know what is.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 03:45 PM

13. DURec

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:14 PM

14. Excellent, excellent rant.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:16 PM

15. DUrec. nm

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:21 PM

16. Thank You,

You said it all. There is nothing that I can add.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:31 PM

18. Very well said.

 

I will never know what it is like to be regarded with fear and suspicion simply because of the color of my skin. Nobody should have to endure that indignity day after day... but millions of people do. You have very eloquently illustrated a particularly insidious element of racism that many people who aren't victimized by prejudice may not even consider, but one that also lies at the very core of the problem.

K&R

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 04:36 PM

19. that's just one arrow in the rightwinger quiver

offensive offense is generally speaking, the only defense they have for just about everything they are associated with in terms of policies. If one is truly a "tolerant" liberal, such "otherization" tactics are not in compliance with adherence to that ideology. The only thing one has no duty to be tolerant of as such, is the intolerance that such things as blaming the victim indicate.

In the case of this conflict in terms of the factual matters I'm most interested in to determine Zimmerman's guilt, has to do with forensic evidence. Obviously Zimmerman had to have one hand free to be able to shoot him, but did Martin have any bruising that would indicate he first tried to use it as a club?

The circumstances indicate to me that Zimmerman never allowed Martin the time to realize he was armed, which would cause any reasonable person to cease and desist in whatever aggression they were involved in or contemplating. SO what we're left with at best, is Zimmerman exploiting a legality. As we all know and can think of examples of (like rightwingers and abortion/gay marriage/etc) just because something is legal doesn't make it "right", and in this case Martin paid the highest price for Zimmerman being wrong.

good post by the way

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Response to stupidicus (Reply #19)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 08:20 PM

20. Sorry to go off topic...

But, you bring up a point I had never thought of. That Zimmerman would actively hide his weapon, not to keep from losing it, but to keep Trayvon from surrendering. He didn't want him to have the opportunity to quit fighting. Well, we don't know what was in Zimmerman's head, but the evidence is there, that this is a possibility. Keep the kid fighting so he has an excuse to shoot him. Not that he needed even that much given what I heard on the 911 call.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #20)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 10:29 PM

21. notta problem



Zimmerman claimed that he yelled for help, and that various neighbors who peered out to see the fight from their backyards didn’t get involved. Zimmerman, the source said, told officers he was so paralyzed by fear that he initially forgot he had a gun, but he said that after Martin noticed his 9mm pistol, Zimmerman pulled it out of his belt holder and fired one round, a hollow-point—the round that killed Martin. (The autopsy report on Martin has not yet been released.)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/04/19/new-account-zimmerman-told-cops-trayvon-s-last-words-were-okay-you-got-it.html

To me between his not using it first as a heavy and blunt instrument to ward off his attacker, or in the other reasonable alternative, as a warning by making the threat to Martin clear so that he would cease and desist with the alleged life threatening beating he was allegedly administering, shows his intent and interest lied with pulling the trigger first, and not the less humane alternatives. After all, how could Martin have been pounding his head against the ground and struggling over a gun at the same time? How he even "noticed it" in the course of administering the beating as Zimmerman alleges, remains a mystery to me, given he was allegedly in the midst of straddling him (he'd be sitting on top of it, or standing over him bent over focused on the bouncing ball that Zimmerman's head allegedly was) in the dark during the "beating my head against the ground" phase, and had he noticed it he surely would have noticed Zimmerman pulling it out of the belt holster, whereupon a struggle for it would have likely ensued. Maybe Zimmerman is a "quick draw"?

Martin then punched him in the face, knocking him down, and began beating his head against the ground. Zimmerman called out for help, while being beaten, before shooting Martin once in the chest at close range, in self-defense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin#cite_note-Sentinel20120326Zimm-130

This is why his actions under the applicable law as a pants/bedwetting, wouldbe toughguy may be defensible -- we'll have to wait for all the evidence and the jury to decide -- but it never will be morally imo, as I'm sure St. Peter will make clear if you believe in that sorta thing.

I'm inclined to think that this, coupled with his stalking, may put him a bit outside of the protection of the statute. And if the struggle and shooting was over the gun already pulled by Zimmerman, whose "ground" was most threatened?

The more likely scenario to me is that the bedwetter pulled the gun outta fear at the onset, and the rest is history. If there was a struggle over it, then DNA or fingerprint evidence should show that. And if that is shown, then the "quick draw" scenario falls apart. Imo, his claims to being the one yelling for help are pretty damning, and I've yet to see any evidence that there was a struggle for the gun as being part of his original statement to the police as well.

I'm guessing it is the stench of inconsistencies like that that prompted the prosecution, and will likely lead to his conviction. And of course, all his phone calls to the police, etc, can be used to confirm a state of mind I addressed as an essential element in the conviction -- a wreckless and callous disregard for human life.

and if that's the case, I think the ground will be yanked from underneath any SYG defense

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/776.041

why would cracking his noggin with the gun as opposed to pulling the trigger first, not be required I ask, to satisfy the language there

After all, the fight wouldn't have occurred but for the provocations of Zimmerman, from start to finish

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Response to stupidicus (Reply #21)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 12:41 PM

29. Amen, Stupidicus...You show alot of logic, critical thinking and common sense, three things that are

in short supply all too often, especially amongst most of the newest of Du'ers posters! Welcome to DU, Stupidicus! Right glad tameetcha! Looking forward to reading many more of your opinions and musings.. You mind is refreshingly fascinating!

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Response to Ecumenist (Reply #29)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 10:34 AM

64. thanks

for the welcome and compliment

what exactly is going on with the influx of new posters? I couldn't help but notice from the "freeper" report post, that apparently some rightwingners are joining.

I have been a long time reader on DU, and have in not so distant past, noticed a bit of conflict between many lib/lefty posters, usually involving BHO and his policies. I had wondered if that wouldn't create a lot of discord and a schism that might produce some migrations outta here, but the addition of rightwingers should have a different cause.

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Response to stupidicus (Reply #64)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 05:10 PM

66. I've noticed the flood of right wing idiots too, many of them EXTREMELY transparent

in their prejudice.! It's a shame that people can't see what the President is trying to do while being blocked at every point by the right and "some" seem all too ready to blame the him. SMDH

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Response to Ecumenist (Reply #66)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 10:24 PM

69. indeed

I think that's entirely valid point on the obstructionism. Imo those lefties who critique him often have valid points as well, but when it comes to righties, more often than not, their criticisms are based on lies or hypocrisy.

Most of them are still seeking vindication and validation for having supported Bush throughout his reign of error and terror, which is why so much of their BS takes the form of "Well, he's worse than Bush was!". That's why they have conveniently forgotten what he left BHO, and pretend that he started with the same gifts Bush subsequently squandered, as opposed to having to clean up that mesh in a fraction of the time they took to make it.

What I was wondering though, has the lefty participation here dwindled in recent times? It use to be that just about every thing I'd open up would have a lot of participation in it, and in my recollection, much more than I see now on average. Did I miss an upheaval and migration outta here by a lot of lefties? The reason I ask, is because I wondered in the past if all the discord I was witnessing between lefties here over criticsims of BHO wouldn't result in something like that.



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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 11:53 PM

23. k&r

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Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #23)

Tue Apr 24, 2012, 11:56 PM

24. Kick for excellence. nt.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 03:08 AM

25. Best OP I've seen in this place in a looooong time

And by OP, I mean a post of original thought. This is absolutely beautiful.

but what we often fail to acknowledge is that we, those who vote democratic and consider themselves liberal...WE are not immune to the insidious racial messages that have poisoned the minds of generations of americans. and personally...i hold YOU accountable, just like i hold myself accountable.

Perfect. Amazing.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:05 AM

26. Thank You!

k&r

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 11:11 AM

28. Excellent OP...

truly excellent.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 01:18 PM

35. You nailed it, and it extends far beyond the distraction of the day.

 

Too few of us will make the hard decision to do the right thing when our entire social order excuses making the world worse because "they have to make a living". How many shiny new college grads claim the progressive mantel, and then happily take an offer to help a Dept. of Death contractor invent more and better ways to kill and steal other people's stuff?

We are fast approaching the point where, if we continue to chase the carrot, we will find that we chased right onto the killing floor.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #35)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 01:52 PM

36. you are so right

my dad wanted me to take a job with a defense contractor back in the 80's, but i could not do it. if i had, i'd be a lot wealthier than i am now, but i just could not go against my core values for money.

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #36)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 05:26 PM

58. My father worked for the Sandia National Labs

His team created the key that prevents accidental ignition of nuclear explosions. It is not all about destruction, but you are right, much of it is.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 01:53 PM

37. Hear Hear, Ma'am!

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:15 PM

43. kick

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #44)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:00 PM

51. i noticed that. i am waiting for them

but i doubt they have the cajones to show themselves in this thread.

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #51)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 03:32 PM

54. That's not their way. It's kind of odd to me that so little has changed

 

on these boards over the last 15 years or so. It's like a playbook was written 5 minutes after the public gained access to the www and this (group, class, type?) sticks to it like the republicans stick to their talking points.

I will be very surprised if any of them show up, but if they do, it will not be alone. They always travel in packs so that they can defend each other.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #54)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 05:08 PM

57. they are busy on the zimmerman's background thread

falling all over themselves to make excuses for him. someone even claimed that putting zimmerman on trial is akin to "executing" him. and if WE do that to zimmerman, then it will be same as what he did to Martin the twisted logic of these folks is a sight to behold.

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #57)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 08:04 PM

61. Good God. I've been trashing all of those threads, now I know it was a good choice.

 

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #61)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 10:52 AM

62. new meme

if you believe zimmerman is guilty, you are depriving him of a fair trial and treating him the same way he treated martin these people have no shame.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 09:57 PM

46. Thank you.

 

Last edited Wed Apr 25, 2012, 11:58 PM - Edit history (1)

I was having a conversation with two 30-something friends, both supposed liberal and intelligent. but when they started using terms like "failed social programs of the sixties," i was floored. i realized just how damaging and insidious the reagan revolution really was, especially the so-called scholarly research that supported reaganism."


I profoundly HATE this about college.

it would never occur to me to question someone in an elevator about why they are in the building, but it has happened to me several times. it doesn't matter what i wear, or how articulate i am. someone, usually a white person, can conclude i don't belong, and feel entitled to question me. and let me tell you something: i don't "go along" with it, and i am not polite. i don't defer to their "suspicions" about my right to be somewhere they don't think i should be. if i bother to respond, i tell them to fuck off.


That's what I saw with Martin. Martin "nice kid", knows about gangs but has nothing to do with them. A real gang would probably terrify him as badly as it would the equivalent white kid. He's going home from the store, a little nervous because he's not as familiar with this parent's neighborhood, and someone comes after him with a gun, saying "what are YOU doing in MY neighborhood?"

What's he supposed to think?

The guy's clearly not a cop, or any sort of legitimate authority. There's no signs of it whatsoever, nor any evidence that he presented himself this way. And he's not acting like it. He's just an aggressive thug with a gun. What's the RIGHT response to a thug with a gun?

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Response to saras (Reply #46)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:59 PM

47. Who's Williams? You mean Trayvon Martin? If you're talking about him, you're absolutely right.

Last edited Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:38 AM - Edit history (3)

Most racists assume that black folks have an intuitive knowledge about gangs in the same way they often are shocked to realise that as a black woman in northern Calfornia, I DO NOT KNOW THE BLACK FAMILY IN THEIR TOWN IN {INSERT City & State}! I think many non-African people would be ASTOUNDED to hear the things that are assumed about us. If it weren't so tragic, it would be funny.

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Response to Ecumenist (Reply #47)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 11:58 PM

49. Yer right - wrong name - I'll go try and fix it. Damn Firefox and it's seventy open tabs!

 

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 11:27 PM

48. Another readon why Zimmerman thought Martin was armed:

It's called projection:

I'm a cowardly, paranoid freak who carries a gun at all times.
Therefore, you are, too.

The motives of the folks who defend Zimmerman are even more highly questionable, because they are not as deranged (and no, I know Zimmerman's not deranged in a clinical sense) as Zimmerman. They project their own normalcy onto him: Zimmerman is afraid of black folks, and they are, too, so therefore Zimmerman's behavior is somehow excusable on that basis.

And why not? What I don't get is how the media are excused here. Zimmerman was acting out a violent vigilante fantasy that has been acted out on screen many, many times, particularly since the 1970's, a fantasy wherein the (loser) vigilante somehow reclaims his worth by shooting criminals, especially black criminals. That the person who gets shot might actually be just a 17 year old boy on his way home from the corner store never enters into it in the movies, of course. And, of course, Charles Bronson was able to get five movies out of it without ever killing an innocent person.

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Response to Alcibiades (Reply #48)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:20 PM

52. i don't excuse the media

especially not faux. the media is most certainly a BIG part of the problem. they parrot whatever zimmerman says without any analysis. and the media is definitely in the business of blaming the victim. zimmerman was projecting his paranoid worldview onto Martin, and no doubt saw himself as hero/avenger. unfortunately, some people see him that way also.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 04:50 AM

50. Well said

and if someone where to ask such a question(what are you doing here?) in my hearing, I dont think I could let it slide either.

I am normally a polite person, but not with bigots and fools.
The reason people feel they can even ASK such a question is because people have let them get away with it in the past.
(oh, thats just eddie, ignore him).
Well, I dont 'ignore' him, I would (and have) called them on it.

I believe that if EVERYONE were to have a zero tolerance for this crap, there would be a lot LESS of it.

I don't see how people have stood by this long for it.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 03:17 PM

53. It exists because victimhood is a valuable commodity

 

It allows one to attain political power, wealth and justification for one's actions. Fair or not.

This is why your opponent must never be allowed to attain the mantle or at least be diminished..

And for one to continuously refresh and replenish theirs.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 05:00 PM

55. Wow ...

it would never occur to me to question someone in an elevator about why they are in the building, but it has happened to me several times. it doesn't matter what i wear, or how articulate i am. someone, usually a white person, can conclude i don't belong, and feel entitled to question me.


That is the exact example I use to explain of white priviledge/entitlement; but very few seem to understand ... very few non-people of color that is.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #55)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 05:06 PM

56. glad i don't work in san francisco anymore

it happened quite a lot there. the sense of entitlement is unreal.

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Response to noiretextatique (Reply #56)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 06:11 PM

59. How about this one ...

A few years ago, I worked for an state Office of the Attorney General.

One morning, as I arrived to work, I met up with two of my co-workers (actually, they were my subordinates). They were Investigators that worked in the field, so they were dressed appropriately ... jeans and a polo shirts, with athletic shoes. I was dressed for the court appearance I had later in the day (actually, my attire really didn't change from day to day ... Suit, tie and shined shoes).

As we approached the elevator, there was a 30ish white guy, dressed in a (walmart special) short sleeved white shirt and a tie, ahead of us. We all got on the elevator and I being closest to the panel, pressed for our floor, and asked the guy what floor he needed; but this guy pushed passed me to press his own floor. From the button he pushed, he either worked in the mail-room or the copy-center.

Then this white guy, then, turned to me and asked what business I had on that floor, "that floor is management!"; but it was not wasted on anyone that he was challenging me - the Black guy - but not the two under-dressed, though white, others on the elevator.

I just stood there ... shocked, as my subordinates braced themselves for the fire they have known me to spit. But I was in my "court room zone" where all emotion is in check and only displayed for effect. So, having noticed what floor this guy had pressed, I told him, "That's correct. My name is 1StrongBlackMan, ask your boss to tell you the name of the Civil Rights Section Chief."

And as, the doors opened to his floor, I said: "Now, you be sure to ask because I want to be certain that you deliver my mail to the correct office."

My subordinates assured me that the guy was a jerk and that they were certain that he'd watch his mouth in the future ... I assured them that he would not, as the only thing he saw was a Black man.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #59)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 06:43 PM

60. not surprised at all

elevators and grocery stores seem to hold some especial place of privilege to some. i worked in a building for 5 years, when one day some guy i'd never seen in the building asked me if he could "help" me. i told him: "not unless you plan to do my work for me." he blushed and i didn't hear another peep out of him. if i needed "help," i would have asked for it.
i need to pm you...new development in my case.

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Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #55)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 05:25 PM

67. Are you familiar with the writing of Kwame Ture or Kwame Nkrumah?

"White America will not face the problem of color, the reality of it. The well-intended say: "We're all human, everybody is really decent, we must forget color." But color cannot be "forgotten" until its weight is recognized and dealt with. White America will not acknowledge that the ways in which this country sees itself are contradicted by being black - and always have been. Whereas most of the people who settled this country came here for freedom or economic opportunity, blacks were brought here to be slaves.

When the Lowndes County Freedom Organization chose the black panther as its symbol, it was christened by the press "the Black Panther Party" - but the Alabama Democratic Party, who symbol is a rooster, has never been called the White Cock Party. No one ever talked about "white power" because power in this country is white. All this adds up to more than merely identifying a group phenomenon by some catchy name or adjective. The furor over that black panther reveals the problem that white America has with color and sex; the furor over "Black Power" reveals how deep racism runs and the great fear which is attached to it.

Whites will not see that I, for example, as a person oppressed because of my blackness, have common cause with other blacks who are oppressed because of blackness. This is not to say that there are no white people who see things as I do, but that it is black people I must speak to first. It must be the oppressed to whom SNCC addresses itself primarily, not to friends from the oppressing group. From birth, black people are told a set of lies about themselves. We are told that we are lazy - yet I drive through the Delta area of Mississippi and watch black people picking cotton in the hot sun for fourteen hours. We are told, "If you work hard, you'll succeed" - but if that were true, black people would own this country. We are oppressed because we are black - not because we are lazy, not because we're stupid (and got good rhythm), but because we are black." KTure

http://www.panafricanperspective.com/kwamt.html

I think both writers well worth everyone's time, for different reasons.
I'm some how willing to bet they were never widely published in their time, at least not
here in the good ole'USA.

BHN







"While a racist social structure is not inherent in the colonial situation, it is inseparable from capitalist economic development. For race is inextricably linked with class exploitation in a racist-capitalist power structure, capitalist exploitation and race oppression are complementary; the removal of one ensures the removal of the other." "In the modern world, the race struggle has become part of the class struggle. In other words, wherever there is a race problem it has become linked with the class struggle Slavery and the master -servant relationship were therefore the cause, rather than the result of racism. The position was crystallized and reinforced with the discovery of gold and diamonds in South Africa, and the employment of cheap African labour in the mines. As time passed, it was thought necessary to justify the exploitation and oppression of African workers, the myth of racial inferiority was developed and spread.

"Each historical situation develops its own dynamics.. The close links between class and race developed in Africa alongside capitalist exploitation. Slavery, the master-servant relationship, and cheap labor were basic to it. The classic example is South Africa, where Africans experienced a double exploitation - both on the grounds of colour and of class.. Similar conditions exist in the USA, the Caribbean, in Latin America, and in other parts of the world where the nature of the development of productive forces has resulted in a racist class structures. In these areas, shades of colour count - the degree of blackness being a yardstick by which social status is measured class struggle." Class Struggle in Africa; Nkrumah


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Response to BeHereNow (Reply #67)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 11:18 AM

73. i haven't read them in a while

thank you for sharing this.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 11:03 AM

63. Magnificent post.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 06:38 PM

68. K&R

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 01:33 AM

70. I wish every white person could have the experience of living in a place

where they're in the minority.

What happened to me in Japan was NOTHING compared to what happens to African-Americans, but I learned in small ways what it means to be stereotyped or treated as an oddity. Most people were wonderful, but I had some really WEIRD experiences as well as one instance, when I was trying to find accommodations for a visiting friend, of being told that the kaikan--a sort of all-purpose meeting hall, performing arts center, cafe, and hotel--nearest my apartment didn't allow Westerners to stay in the hotel part.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #70)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 11:17 AM

72. i do too. i had to leave this country in order to feel american

and normal and average. the weight of blackness was eased when i lived in europe.

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Response to noiretextatique (Original post)

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 02:33 AM

71. k&r nt

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