"The new threat: 'Racism without racists'"

[applegrove]

The new threat: 'Racism without racists'

By John Blake, CNN

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-racism-or-racial-bias/index.html?hpt=hp_t5

"SNIP.......................



(CNN) -- In a classic study on race, psychologists staged an experiment with two photographs that produced a surprising result.

They showed people a photograph of two white men fighting, one unarmed and another holding a knife. Then they showed another photograph, this one of a white man with a knife fighting an unarmed African-American man.

When they asked people to identify the man who was armed in the first picture, most people picked the right one. Yet when they were asked the same question about the second photo, most people -- black and white -- incorrectly said the black man had the knife.

Even before the Ferguson grand jury's decision was announced, leaders were calling once again for a "national conversation on race." But here's why such conversations rarely go anywhere: Whites and racial minorities speak a different language when they talk about racism, scholars and psychologists say.




........................SNIP"

[AverageJoe90]

1. Can't buy this, TBH. Sorry.

Yes, all conversations about structural racism aside, I'm afraid there was something clearly off about this study......hell, the study itself was obviously quite flawed, thinking about it.

And one slightly disturbing about this piece is that they decided to bring up yet another obviously problematic study, in which, supposedly, babies, as young as three months old, were said to have allegedly preferred their own race above others.....and this is just before the time they can really recognize their mother, let alone gain the ability of object permanence, and certainly quite a while before they even realize that humans are different....

And then Howard J. Ross, unbelievably, even goes so far as to claim that racial biases have an EVOLUTIONARY aspect:

He says people are hardwired to be biased because it helped keep our ancestors alive. They survived, in part, by having to make quick assumptions about strangers who might prove threatening.

Are you kidding me? Is this what passes for discussion about race in this country? Jesus Christ on a pogo stick.....

But then again, I guess I can't expect much better from the network that gave us Lou Dobbs for several years.....my, CNN, how far you've fallen.

[1StrongBlackMan]

4. Yes ...

You, with your 20-something years of life and Bachelor's Degree (maybe) in who knows what, don't buy the observations and conclusion of PhD, Peer-reviewed publishing, social scientists.

[Number23]

6. For God's sake, JUST IGNORE HIM.

He is not going to learn. He is here for one reason only -- to troll women and poc here and let us know that we don't matter.

2/3 of DU have tried to educate this person. And after trying that, we all just basically begged him to shut the hell up which he refuses to do. At this point, 1SBM, by responding to his unending and consistent ignorance, you have to realize you aren't doing anything but giving him exactly what he wants.

[1StrongBlackMan]

7. You speak truth ...

but since he has had me on ignore since I called him out for inventing terms and posting links to social scientist that he claimed support his crap (that turned out to NOT be social scientists AND have, actually, come to DU to say he's full of crap) ... my response are for those that might happen across his crap, not for him.

[Number23]

11. I know and I hear you. But still... that person is so NOT worth the time and effort

Even though it was just a couple of days ago that I took the bait myself.

But here's the money quote in this article:

Disparate impact is built on the belief that most people aren't stupid enough to openly announce they're racists but instead cloak their racism in seemingly race-neutral language.

Now, if that don't sound like the behavior of some certain other folks around here, I don't know what does. Even though as poc, we hear and we know what's behind that "race neutral language" which is why we are the main ones calling these folks out. Over and over again, even as some of their fans wonder why.

[JustAnotherGen]

22. I've got to agree with Number23

Just don't respond to him.

[bettyellen]

35. LOL, he's quoting fake social scientists now?!? TBH, that is not surprising

as it seems skimming the headlines to decide if it's what he wants to believe is all the "analysis" happening, TBH.

[1StrongBlackMan]

37. LOL...

the "expert" he quoted is a white female Christian blogger, and what made her an expert?

... Wait for it... Wait for it ...

She's married to a Black guy!

[bettyellen]

47. oh my, that is some ignorant shit right there. holy crap, talk about flawed methodologies......

how about some gas bag blogger with no methodology at all. Bizarre. You have to laugh.

[JustAnotherGen]

43. Well actually

That's all - reminds me of the know it all from the Polar Express.

[kwassa]

9. This poster inserts himself into every conversation about race ..

and places on ignore those who question his arguments. He is a young person with no actual knowledge on the subject that he pontificates on , and he won't back any of his assertions up. When questioned, he can't answer, and reverts to ignore.

Notice how he immediately attempts to thread-jack by referring to various studies that have nothing to do with the OP. His refutation of the study in the OP is simply because it doesn't make sense to him personally. Wow.

I am on ignore, as is strongblackman.

[XemaSab]

23. I'm so white I should be a spokeswoman for Clorox

and yes, I am on ignore.

[Rex]

29. Oh Joe, TBH always so predictable.

I guess you've never heard of biology or sociology or anthropology. Keep banging your head bra! Something might eventually fall out.

[AverageJoe90]

31. Not exactly an intelligent answer, I'm sad to say.

The problem with a lot of these types of studies, sadly, is that, way too often, they either use bad methodology, or they start out with already predetermined outcomes; that is, the study is heavily skewed by what they already believe is true.

I'm not saying that sociology is all B.S., btw: there has indeed been some good stuff coming out of that field. But it does have it's issues at times, however.

Evolutionary psychology seems to be the biggest factor here, however: Evo-psych has actually been called into question by a number of people over the years for it's rather dubious general premise, and what should bother most Democrats on this site, I would think, that it's been used by less scrupulous elements(like MRAs for instance) over the years to justify things such as misogyny, racism, and plenty of other things that lefties as a whole are mostly opposed to.

[bettyellen]

36. post some of this "good stuff" coming out of sociology on race….

Come on now, give us something with "good methodology" and no "predetermined outcome" please.

[1StrongBlackMan]

38. LOL ...

These studies were published to peer-reviewed journals ... One would think if they used "bad methodology, or they start out with already predetermined outcomes", it would have been discovered (and published) by one of their peers; rather than, a 20-something message board typer.

[1StrongBlackMan]

2. This article should be required reading for DU ...

if, for no other reason, these statements:

The more we assume that the problem of racism is limited to the Klan, the birthers, the tea party or to the Republican Party, the less we understand that racial domination is a collective process and we are all in this game."

And,

As people talk about what the grand jury's decision in Ferguson means, Bonilla-Silva and others say it's time for Americans to update their language on racism to reflect what it has become and not what it used to be.

And,

"The first thing we must stop doing is making racism a personal thing and understand that it is a system of advantage based on race," says Doreen E. Loury, director of the Pan African Studies program at Arcadia University, near Philadelphia.

Loury says racism "permeates every facet of our societal pores."

But, also, because the article contains citations presenting the current state of the study of the phenomena of racism.

But I suspect this article will seek faster there a pebble dropped into a pool of water ... for exactly that reason.

{But rest assured, I have bookmarked the article for future response to antiquated understandings of racism ... it'll will save me a lot of typing.}

[applegrove]

3. Nicholas Kristof took a test a few months ago that said he had some small amount of bias.

That was just after the Michael Brown shooting. I did it a few years ago. I was on the line but biased nevertheless. Everyone should do it. Maybe we could start a movement to get all people to do it online. There are many such web based tests. We could call it the Michael Brown reality check.

[Number23]

5. This is something that black people and people of color have been saying FOREVER

That white people are the only ones that believe that the only "real" racism is calling a person a nigger or burning a cross in their yard. Shockingly, this stuff does still happen but it is much LESS insidious and damaging than the day to day stress and BS that we have to put up with:

"The more we assume that the problem of racism is limited to the Klan, the birthers, the tea party or to the Republican Party, the less we understand that racial domination is a collective process and we are all in this game."

The whole "I don't see color" is exactly the type of privileged foolishness that alot of whites consider to be the height of racial equality but that most poc just consider eye rolling naivete. This whole piece is an excellent read and examines and highlights alot of "casual" racism that is nothing short of devastating for minorities. Thanks for posting.

[bravenak]

8. I see many people have a problem where they avoid the topic all together or get angry about it.

They seem to see the problem as other peoples problem and will in fact call black people racists for bringing up the issue. I have been called racist my times on this site by liberals just for bringing up the fact that liberals are racist too. Seems to me that many think it is a problem that only conservatives have and that they are not a part of the problem. But they are. Many justify things that happen to black people by rationalizing that things are better now. Like things being slightly better than a time of public lynchings attended by all the churchgoing towns folk is all to the good and we should be grateful.

Comments about marching for our rights in that way where older white liberals seem to think that younger minorities owe them something for marching for a while back in the day. We are not properly grateful. Of course we aren't. Why should we be? We are still over policed, under represented, underemployed and our voting rights are being stripped. It is racist to think we should be grateful at all. If you do something good, either do it from the heart or don 't get upset when you are not properly thanked. We live in a world of hurt today that no marches anywhere have addressed.

There are too many expectations put on young black people today. And the democratic party is failing to address these problems, they remain quiet on issues, and they just expect votes from people who they have been ignoring and disrespecting. Look at Democratic Governor Nixon. Men like him are the leaders the democratic party gives black people in red states. And they see nothing wrong with it because they don't really care.

[uppityperson]

10. I remember getting in trouble as a young adult for telling a potential hirer that everyone has

prejudices, that we all prejudge people and recognizing that is the first step to being able to get past it. They decided I said I was a bigot and didn't get the job, missing the point. It is the first step, recognizing you judge people by superficial things. Only the first step.

Then you get to figure out how to get past that, to let it slant your view of things the least it can.

Racism isn't "just" the nastiness but inherent in so much.

I hope this makes sense, if not, please let me know or ask for clarification. Thanks for an interesting article.

[kwassa]

12. Here is a great section from this article:

"Median income among black Americans is roughly half that of white Americans. But a narrow majority of whites believe blacks earn as much money as whites, and just 37% believe that there's a disparity between the two groups. Likewise, while 56% of blacks believe black Americans face significant discrimination, only 16% of whites agree," he writes. "Many whites -- including many millennials -- believe discrimination against whites is more prevalent than discrimination against blacks."

But as Nicholas Kristof recently pointed out in The New York Times, the U.S. has a greater wealth gap between whites and blacks than South Africa had during apartheid.

Such racial inequities might seem invisible partly because segregated housing patterns mean that many middle- and upper-class whites live far from poor blacks.

We are still a socially segregated country, folks, by and large. The white experience and the black experience are different due to that segregation.

[lumberjack_jeff]

13. The conversation usually goes something like this

The US is a racist society
- Not every white person is bigoted. In fact, I know I'm not.
As a member of this society, you are a inextricable part of it.
- What can I do besides not being racist myself?

... this is the point at which dialog falls apart.

I find it obvious that there's an element of cultural racism (call it white or asian privilege if you will) at work and that many individuals are racists. The problem comes from "then what? What should I do to help mitigate the problem?"

I think that a better conversation is this;
There are still racist institutions and attitudes in the US.
I agree, and it bothers me too.
Let me tell you about my racial experience so we can explore how they differ from yours.

At that point we can create allies and raise awareness instead of shutting down into perceived personal attacks and retreat into tribalism.

I think the OP is right, and I've experienced it here. "Racism" to white people is the individually mediated form. Racism to black people is primarily the institutional form.

To a white person "racist" is a finger in the chest. To a black person "not racist" denies the reality of their daily life.

[Recursion]

15. Oh, here's a good direction I've gone after that point:

"Why are you so concerned about 'not being racist'? Is that the most important issue right now?"

[JustAnotherGen]

21. That's a really good question to ask

Thank you for that nugget of wisdom.

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. Is it about the person or the culture?

I think we're not going to change culture by attacking it's mostly benign individual constituents.

[kwassa]

27. This is the key point brought up by Ferguson.

I think the OP is right, and I've experienced it here. "Racism" to white people is the individually mediated form. Racism to black people is primarily the institutional form.

To a white person "racist" is a finger in the chest. To a black person "not racist" denies the reality of their daily life.

Ferguson represents the disparate ways police treat blacks and whites. The reason this blew up so big is not because it happened in one town in Missouri, but because so many other blacks all over the country recognized the experience. Profiling is alive and well in America's police forces.

The other big, new point is that a cop will be protected by a prosecutor from the consequences of his actions, which sends a very dangerous signal to law enforcement all over the country.

There is the police stop for traffic violations, and then there is the investigatory stop, which happens only to minorities, most of whom are law-abiding citizens. The message being conveyed is that one is under suspicion because of one's color. These law-abiding citizens are being treated as guilty until proven innocent. Whites don't have these experiences, so they refuse to believe this exists.

I had a conversation with a black colleague yesterday, and told him the joke I had read where one black man said "I knew I was getting old when the police stopped pulling me over." He laughed hard, and said that was definitely true.

[AverageJoe90]

33. Jeff, this is possibly the best post on this thread. I gotta be honest.

Indeed, it seems the activist left, or certain portions of it, has just lost it's way.

I think that a better conversation is this;
There are still racist institutions and attitudes in the US.
I agree, and it bothers me too.
Let me tell you about my racial experience so we can explore how they differ from yours.

At that point we can create allies and raise awareness instead of shutting down into perceived personal attacks and retreat into tribalism.

This. Just this. Why is this so hard for some folks to understand?

[gollygee]

42. Why do you think that people are not understanding

when they understand but don't agree with you?

[JustAnotherGen]

44. I've noticed that too - and always misunderstood

Ohhhhhh the manateeeeeeee!

[etherealtruth]

14. K and R for the OP and ....

... the subsequent posts (almost all of the responses are intelligent, sincere and heartfelt). There are times when some need to shut up and listen. Sadly, the ones that would benefit most from "listening" never seem to be the ones that do.

[1StrongBlackMan]

40. Yes ...

Sadly, the ones that would benefit most from "listening" never seem to be the ones that do.

They are too busy trying to make racism all about them, by making it NOT Them.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

16. Required reading for DU! The racism here has become nearly unbearable.

Moderators do nothing. They allow it.

I've never witnessed such hate before in my life...and I was raised in the South!!!

[applegrove]

17. Surely you kid? I don't think people here would put up with it. I have not seen it.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

19. You're probably right. But where do we go from here? I feel as though there's hope!

[applegrove]

20. There is a good start to a discussion.

Last edited Thu Nov 27, 2014, 04:32 AM - Edit history (2)

CNN and nicholas kristof have said some pretty important things. But mostly a generation of black kids have the events of the last few years to remind them that they are valued. That people will fight for them. And that will give them wings in their own lives. You just watch. Martyrs will do that. Look at how JFK inspired a generation of liberals. These events of the last few years where mere kids get into situations that are way to complicated situations for kids to be involved in.. this has and will inspire change in the country. People have the internet today so they talk about what they want for as long as they want. These events will not die due to the end of the news cycle. Much has changed already. I look forward to a Mike Brown law where police wear digital cameras. Demonstrations are now managed with shades of grey, not in black or white rules. Demonstrations are dynamic in nature and need to be treated that way.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

18. I'm going to post some Tim Wise stuff, too. He's so good at this.

If it's this bad on a so-called progressive discussion forum, imagine that it's far worse than any of us could have ever imagined!!

[damnedifIknow]

24. As a white I must be weird

It's not like I haven't been exposed to the racist or homophobic disease, I just never caught it. Maybe I'm immune I don't know.

[applegrove]

28. These tests find subconscious bias. A tiny bit. Believe me I had no idea either.

[AverageJoe90]

32. You aren't alone; the majority of our fellow Americans in general haven't, to be truthful......

this is at least true for the former, and I suspect the latter as well, these days. You are NOT weird at all.

Now more baseline prejudice, though, really is truly widespread; it may not be racism, or xenophobia, etc., but it can still affect people. And unlike outright racism and homophobia, it isn't even all that rare amongst liberals; it really can affect anybody without them knowing it, oftentimes, whereas racism & homophobia, with very few exceptions(namely those who were totally brainwashed in their childhoods, especially some folks born before 1945 or so), actually require some real thought put into them.

[gollygee]

25. kick

to top of page.

[Rex]

30. Social engineering. Many people are led to believe racism doesn't exist anywhere but the South.

Until 2008, I thought racism was on the decline. Shows my own bias being a white privileged male. 6 years later and now I know better...I don't think we've changed one iota. Sure, maybe there are more secular people than that past generation - but racism is huge in America. So much so that it affects our subconscious. Mass media feeds the narrative, the GOP plays on the fears of it's voters and as this goes on year after year - these subtle but vile notions float around in our subconscious. We absorb it.

IMO, the war on terror/war on drugs/war on the poor netted zero gain for the Establishment so they needed an enemy ASAP - so they went with their traditional fallback enemy, 'scary black people'. America always has to have an enemy. Otherwise we might enjoy peace and prosperity too much and start to expect it.

[AverageJoe90]

34. Racism actually HAS declined on the whole, by and large.

But, you see, that may actually be a part of the reason that we've seen many of more hardcore racists come out into the open since Obama came into office; they know they're outnumbered, and they NEED Koch and company to keep funding their divisive agenda, because once that falls, their permanent decline into obscurity begins.

[TheKentuckian]

39. As evidenced by?

[1StrongBlackMan]

41. Evidence? ...

What more evidence do we need than a declaration by a 20-something that believes there's "no REAL racism in the Democratic Party (or DU)."

[TheKentuckian]

46. He said on the whole so I'm not even worried about the tiny DU sample or

even getting into the weeds about Democrats because the poster presents a much larger fish than a political party.

I'm wondering what argument there is that in general racism is on the decline before it makes any sense to discuss more specific smaller and ideologically isolated groups.

[AverageJoe90]

48. The acceptance of interracial marriage should be a big clue, for one.

And yes, dare I say it, the fact that we elected a black President, twice(despite the protests, and dark money, of the RW). And there's probably many other things I could list, if I had the time or energy to do so.

[TheKentuckian]

49. Acceptance or 6 or 7 decades of legal precedent. I don't know, still plenty of haters hating

Seems more they have become better at not being overt to me.

I guess the existence of enough pressure to bother with code and lip service is an improvement but I'm not going to be passing out cookies or gold stars for the "accomplishment".

Nothing less than full humanity on equal terms, partnership not assimilation.

[m-lekktor]

45. excellent article. nt