I Don't Get George Zimmerman's Defenders

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Sure he is presumed innocent in a court of law but he profiled, stalked, confronted, and then killed an unarmed teen ager. That should make him guilty in the court of public opinion.

[Cali_Democrat]

1. Just reverse the races

If Zimmerman were black and Trayvon were a white child, the Zimmerman defenders would be singing a different tune.

Yup.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. Crazy Case

In any other case regardless of the race of the victim and perp there would have been charges the night of the murder. Zimmerman must have been around the law enough to craft a "defense".

[SaltyBro]

7. Wait, Zimmerman is white?

I have heard so many different things I just don't know what the facts are.

[Cali_Democrat]

16. Zimmerman is half white

His dad is white.

But it's not so much that, it's the fact that Trayvon is black. That's what the staunch Zimmerman defenders find so objectionable.

[SaltyBro]

19. There is proof that Zimmerman murdered him based on his skin colour?

If so, it better come out during the trial so Zimmerman will face federal hate crime charges.

[Cali_Democrat]

40. I'm referring to Zimmerman's defenders, not Zimmerman's actions

But the prosecutor does feel he profiled Martin. It's in the affidavit.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. He Became Suspicious Of Trayvon Because Of His Skin Color

And that started the unpleasant chain of events but I don't think Zimmerman was some latter day Joseph Paul Franklin who just wanted to kill a black guy.

[MADem]

39. Hispanic is not a race. It is a cultural identity. nt

[Cali_Democrat]

41. OK then he's white.

[MADem]

44. I understand that's how he identifies. The Sanford PD identified him thusly, too. nt

[SaltyBro]

46. OK so Zimmerman is a white man.

and he should be charged with a federal hate crime/civil rights violation of Trayvon.

[Cali_Democrat]

49. So you think Zimmerman committed a hate crime?

[SaltyBro]

50. Absolutely if he stalked and murdered Trayvon based on his skin colour

Textbook definition imho.

[obamanut2012]

91. Thank you -- so many people don't get that

I had an argument with a friend last week that someone who grew up in Brazil, but whose parents came from Japan, are Hispanic. They told me I was wrong. ANYONE can be Hispanic, regardless of color or race or whatever, as long as their grew up in a Hispanic culture.

[Posteritatis]

132. He's "white enough" for some of the, ah, classier people discussing this. (nt)

[Generic Other]

185. Just out of curiosity what does that mean?

"White enough..." ? To pass as white? I am half white. No one has ever said I was "white enough." In fact someone once said I was not. And I was kind of shocked.

And what was Zimmerman "white enough" for? To be defended by other white people for that reason alone?

I live on the West coast and I am not sure a person of Z's ethnicity would be identified as white by a lot of folks around here. Latino certainly. Even maybe native Indian (Peruvian). But most certainly he would be seen as a person of color. Definitely a minority. And a lot of people would profile him. And be as suspicious of him as he was of Trayvon Martin.

Anyway, just curious about the "white enough" remark.

I actually think he's being defended by a lot of people who just want to defend their gun rights no matter how extreme. They may mostly just happen to be white.

[Posteritatis]

186. The term's not an absolute; people who're going to think in those terms will shift it around

"White" is a pretty highly mobile goalpost to some people, especially if by moving it around they get to justify the death of somebody who fails the color test by defending the killer.

[Generic Other]

187. The goal post usually doesn't move in the direction of inclusiveness though

that's why I am thinking it is the defense of gun rights that is bringing so many to Z's side.

[Posteritatis]

189. My point is that it technically isn't moving that way

It was moving in the direction of "let's find a reason to be dismissive of the black guy" first, with "let's protect the white-for-the-purposes-of-our-discussion guy" a secondary consideration.

The intent probably matters at least as much as the act for this one.

(Also, a whole lot of people probably just don't know the guy's ethnicity at all and are going off the assumption that "Zimmerman" is a pretty white-sounding surname.)

[TheWraith]

2. For some people, that's the point.

There's always those who prefer to stake out the unpopular opinion, if only for the sake of balance.

[Hoyt]

8. Some are merely protecting system that allows this type thing, bigotry, SYG, relaxed gun laws, etc.

[TheWraith]

62. Your continued obsession with guns and gun owners is always appreciated.

I'm glad to see that you've recovered so well from discovering the AP/Ipsos poll which shows that overwhelming majorities of Americans support both concealed carry and self defense laws. A support which is only reinforced by the fact that Zimmerman is being prosecuted for his crime, not protected the way you pretend it would be.

[Fumesucker]

81. Zimmerman would have gotten away with it if Martin's family had not raised a huge stink..

The local authorities were going to let Zimmerman off the hook, it was only nationwide publicity that changed that fact.

[Hoyt]

88. You mean the poll that shows majority oppose guns in church, workplace, stores, etc.

Only 6% say there should be no or very few restrictions on gun ownership.

62% oppose allowing people to bring a firearm into a church, workplace or retail establishment.

91% support background checks for gun purchasers.

69% support limiting the number of guns a person could purchase in a given time frame.

74% support laws limiting the sale of automatic weapons. [I'm assuming people really mean semi-auto here.]

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news-polls/pressrelease.aspx?id=5586


IMO, those percentages will increase with more publicity to the who this country allows to walk around in public with a gun or two strapped to their bodies.

[GoCubsGo]

4. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson called for Zimmerman to be arrested.

That's all one needs to know. Few people can automatically set certain people to foaming at the mouth like those two. If Sharpton and Jackson support something, they're automatically be against it, facts be damned.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. That's One Of Zimmerman's Defenders Red Herrings

And they start babbling about black on black crime as if that's somehow a get out of jail free card when a white kills a black.

[Life Long Dem]

6. How about defending your rights?

Just happens to be Zimmerman needing his rights protected. You could be next. Or should we just rip up the Constitution and everyone's rights because of Zimmerman?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. What Part Of

What part of "Sure he is presumed innocent in a court of law" don't you understand.?

And I grew up acrosss the the lake from Sanford (Deltona). Google it. If I profiled, stalked, confronted, and then murdered an unarmed kid in Sanford, regardless of my color and his, I would have been arrested that night.

[Life Long Dem]

11. The part where you turn it into street justice.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. Where In My Posts Did I Say He Should Be Denied Due Process Or Subject To "Street Justice"

It seems that what he did to Trayvon.

[Life Long Dem]

20. You found him guilty already

Doesn't the hanging come next?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. No. Because I'm Not Sitting On The Jury

Nice try, though.

[Life Long Dem]

25. Okay, I can deal with that kind of talk.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. I Am Just Sharing My Opinion On A Bulletin Board

Now, if I was chosen for jury duty and didn't disclose the fact that I think he did it I would be violating his right to be tried by an impartial jury of his peers but I'm not.

[Life Long Dem]

42. There are probably people out there that never heard of Zimmerman.

Those will be the ones the lawyers choose, among other things for a jury of his peers..

[bayareamike]

13. Personally, I think he'll be found guilty.

Still, it is unfair to "find him guilty in the court of public opinion" when you, I, and the overwhelming majority of everyone else are speculating about the case. We do not have the privilege of accessing the complete set of facts about this case. That's why we have courts in the first place -- so that people can't be convicted by "popular opinion".

That said, I am not a Zimmerman apologist or defender. Until he is tried, I will withhold further judgement.

[bigapple]

10. hm...

profiling: not illegal unless you're hiring.
stalked: I think followed is more accurate. Stalking is a longer-term thing.
Confronted: we're not sure how it went down. Who threw the first punch?
Killed: maybe he was genuinely fearing for his life?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Didn't The Dispatcher Ask Zimmerman Not To Follow Martin?

Martin had every right to be at the Twin Lakes Complex and then he is followed by some stranger. He is the one who legitimately could have feared for his life.

[bigapple]

15. yup

but dispatcher has no legal authority over Zimmerman.

I'm not sure that someone following you immediately makes you fear for your life. If Zimmerman's story about his head getting bashed against concrete is true (no idea--will have to see what forensics say), then I guess a reasonable person would fear for his life.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. If Martin Made Zimmerman Fear For His Life Why Did He Follow Him?

.

[bigapple]

26. according

to Zimmerman's story, his head was getting bashed in when he shot. That was the point that he feared for his life--not before.

Again, we need to see what the forensics say.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Remember Zimmerman Was Not Wearing A Uniform

How did Martin know he wasn't a threat?

[bigapple]

37. yup

the standard for self-defense requires Martin to reasonably believe that Zimmerman was threatening him with grevious harm or death.
I'm not sure mere following is sufficient.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. Again. There Is Prima Facie Evidence That Zimmerman Used Lethal Force Against An Unarmed Person

The only evidence that Zimmerman legitimately feared for his life is from his uncorroborated statements.

[bigapple]

51. yes

but (a) he could still be reasonably in fear for his life (b) why not wait to see what the forensics show?

[baldguy]

63. Seems to me the only person that night with the right to defend himself was Martin.

He was to one just walking home, minding his own business. He was the one being followed & confronted by an unknown, suspicious person. He's the one who could reasonably fear for his life. Turns out, he was correct.

[bigapple]

22. why

does following someone (even against advise) make him the aggressor? Did he throw the first punch?

Would a reasonable person think that someone following you is enough to use lethal force in self-defense?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Zimmerman Is The One Who Used Lethal Force After He Followed Trayvon Martin And Confronted Him

.

[bigapple]

30. well

I think the only thing proven so far is that Zimmerman used lethal force.

Not sure who confronted whom and who threw the first punch.

According to Zimmerman, he was in fear of his life at the time he shot Martin. Maybe his head was getting bashed in, maybe he couldn't retreat...who knows? Again, I would wait for the forensics e.g. whether Martin was shot in close range, where the gunpowder burns on the body are, what were the injuries on each person (other than the gunshot wound).

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. If Zimmerman's Head Was Beaten Into The Ground Why Was There No CT Scan Or Hospitalization?

Seems those would be perfunctory for someone who had his head "bashed in".

[bigapple]

47. maybe

he declined, signed a waiver whatever?

Why not wait for the evidence to come out?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. Do You Find It Peculiar That Somebody Who Had Their "Head Bashed In" Would Decline Medical Treatment

.

[bigapple]

56. I'm sure

all the medical evidence will come out at trial and the medics/Zimmerman will explain why despite the police report showing Zimmerman bleeding from the head further medical treatment was not offered.

[frylock]

126. you keep digging for excuses..

maybe maybe maybe. at what point does zimmerman's story become unbelievable to you?

[bigapple]

135. what part is unbelievable?

the part where they fought on the ground?

or the part where he shot Martin execution-style?

[frylock]

172. the part where you continue to invent scenarios that favor zimmerman..

maybe monkeys flew out of zimmerman's ass. is that in the police report? maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

[hfojvt]

60. you should know that you have it backwards

Zimmerman was already following Martin when he was advised not to. He was not sitting there and then advised not to follow and then start following. The dispatcher asks "Are you following him?" Zimmerman says "yes". Dispatcher says "we don't need you to do that."

Did he then continue to follow? I don't know. I listened to Zimmerman's call. As I remember it, Zimmerman said "sh*t, he's running" and then seemed to lose him. Not really still following, because he didn't know where Martin was.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

90. Being A Resident Of Twin Lakes And A Neighborhood Watch Official

He likely knew all possible escape routes for the young man.

[shimonitanegi]

18. Zimmerman apologists are all racist

pure and simple.

[bigapple]

24. perhaps

they are more interested in judging based on facts not speculation?

[shimonitanegi]

29. Yeah right

Zimmerman's version of events are the only facts.

[bigapple]

32. not really

there's also the forensics e.g. reconstruction, phone calls, autopsy.

Why not see what the evidence reveals before deciding whether Zimmerman is lying?

[JI7]

33. they have already changed stories multiple times , should we not judge Bush

until he has his trial. same for cheney , corporate whores etc.

[SaltyBro]

48. Bush, Cheney et al will never face justice

big difference.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Do You Follow Strangers Around At Night And What Is Their Reaction?

I suspect it's either fight or flight and if it's the former maybe that's a good reason not to follow strangers around at night.

I don't get the logic of "Gee, that's one scary hombre. I think I'll follow him until I catch him or he catches me."

[bigapple]

52. no I don't

But it isn't illegal to follow people around.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. No But It Is Certainly Imprudent

And makes it hard to invoke "stand your ground" when you are coming perilously close to invading another person's ground.

[bigapple]

58. Martin had the right to "stand your ground"

only if he reasonably feared grevious harm or death.

If someone follows you late at night, do you think you have the legal right to sucker punch that person?

[baldguy]

65. Considering that Martin is the one who's dead ... I think that qualifies as "grevious harm".

The only person who had a right to defend himself that night was Martin.

[bigapple]

86. but

you have no idea why Zimmerman fired. Martin was shot in the chest. How far apart were they? Were the two in a fight? Who started the fight? These are relevant questions to figure out whether Zimmerman had the right to self-defense.

[baldguy]

177. Still trying to defend Zimmerman?

Are you going to try to defend Jared Loughner too? Or Charles Manson?

[frylock]

128. i think one might reasonably fear an altercation at that point..

particularly when the subject makes an effort to shake said pursuer to no avail.

[bigapple]

136. but

could one be in reasonable fear of mortal harm just because someone is following you?

[uppityperson]

140. Yes. Of course one could.

[bigapple]

146. based

on what?

[uppityperson]

150. History. For me, being female, different history than being young and black.

Follow me in a car at night and I'll drive to the cop shop or someplace with lots of people as you sure will scare me. Follow me on foot and I will also be afraid of being mugged or raped.

For a black teenager there are also concerns.

For pretty much anyone, being followed is a matter of concern, fear of being harmed or killed.

[bigapple]

157. so

if someone follows you, do you think you have the right to attack that person?

[uppityperson]

159. Whoosh go the goal posts. It depends on the situation.

[bigapple]

162. what goalposts?

I'm asking: did Martin (or you) have a right to attack anyone following him (or you)?

[uppityperson]

164. No, you ask "could one be in reasonable fear of mortal harm just because someone is following you?"

Of course you could. Now you conflate that with attacking "anyone following him (or you)".

Of course a person does not "have a right to attack anyone following him". They do have a right to defend themselves and use the minimal amount of force necessary to keep themselves safe.

[bigapple]

167. but

if you are in reasonable fear of mortal harm, you have the right to self-defense.

So if you think that Martin had a reasonable fear of mortal harm simply because Zimmerman was following him then logically you must believe that Martin had the right to attack Zimmerman.

[uppityperson]

182. Yes, he had the right. It doesn't mean he did. The only evidence of this is Zimmy's changing story.

If someone feels they are in reasonable fear of mortal danger, yes, they have the right to use the minimum force necessary to keep themselves safe.

[frylock]

142. is this supposed to be some zen bullshit?

let me spell it out for you, mkay. if i'm in fear for my life, the last thing i'm going to do is PURSUE the thing that has me fearing for my life. do you GET that? this is where you and zimmerman lose this argument.

[bigapple]

145. maybe

he didn't fear for his life until during the fight?

[frylock]

149. at which point SYG is no longer valid..

unless of course your claiming that martin stood his ground.

[bigapple]

155. it would be simple self-defense.

IF his head was being pounded into the ground and he couldn't flee, do you agree that Z meets the legal standard of self-defense under Florida law?

[uppityperson]

158. Whoosh go the goal posts.

[frylock]

166. i don't believe for a damn second that Z's head was being pounded into the ground..

haven't seen a bit of evidence to support that. have you?

[bigapple]

168. other than

the police reports you mean?

[frylock]

170. are you stating that a police WITNESSED zimmerman having is head beat into the ground?

because the police report is based on what zimmerman TOLD them.

[uppityperson]

184. You mean the police reporting what Zimmy told them? That "evidence"?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

169. If His Head Was Concussed Why Didn't He Seek Medical Treatment? (Reprise)

I would think the first time someone's head was violently slammed into the concrete the brain would move aganst the skull and he or she would be knocked out.

[pipoman]

66. It depends what the responsibility

of someone decided by a community to be a 'neighborhood watch captain' is. It is my understanding Zim had some type of charge by the neighborhood to watch for suspicious activity..

[DemocratSinceBirth]

69. This Is Where The Pro Zimmerman Crowd Throws Up Smoke

According to them Zimmerman wan't on "watch" that night and didn't have to follow neighborhood watch protocol which suggests neighborhood watch members not carry a gun because they are more likely to use it.



Cui bono. Who benefits from these self serving statements because the dead kid can't speak for himself.

[obamanut2012]

93. I had someone detained by police for following me around at night

And, they were charged. It IS illegal to follow people around in many, many jurisdictions.

[bigapple]

104. maybe

you mean harassment. What was the exact charge?

[shimonitanegi]

57. Following someone at night with a loaded gun

is sheer madness.

[bigapple]

59. dumb

but not illegal

[DemocratSinceBirth]

83. It Became Illegal When He Shot An Unarmed Kid In The Chest

After following him around at night with a loaded gun.

[bigapple]

85. actually

that's what the trial is supposed to figure out: whether his actions were illegal under Florida law.

[treestar]

82. That could be, but then the person wouldn't be a

"Zimmerman apologist."

I have run into people who assume Trayvon was completely in the wrong, and knowing those individuals from other debates, know that Trayvon is wrong because he is black - though they won't say that. But they do stand up for Zimmerman no matter what.

For instance that police video where Zimmerman does not look hurt or look like his head was bashed in - they search that video for signs of scratches and "enhance" it.

There's no way Zimmerman's head was severely bashed - but they won't admit that, they stick with their theory.

[Skip Intro]

113. Define Zimmerman apologist, please.

[applegrove]

36. Attacking George Zimmerman for his actions steps directly on a fantasy the NRA uses

to sell guns: that a lone man with a gun can be a hero when he sees someone suspicious. Zimmerman destroyed that for now.

[slackmaster]

38. I don't know if he's guilty of a crime, but I know that what he did was wrong

[rufus dog]

55. Come on now, you get it!

Dude was black and wore a hoodie!

[hfojvt]

61. What don't you get?

Perhaps you should ask questions instead of trying to read the minds of others?

I have a question for you. What do you think happened between "confronted" and "killed"? Does it matter at all?

[baldguy]

64. What happened between "confronted" and "killed" was Martin trying to defend himself.

He failed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

70. Martin Was Armed With A Bag Of Skittles And A Can Of Arizona Ice Tea

Though the pro Zimmerman camp claims the can of ice tea could be used as a lethal weapon.


Didn't some sage once say "never bring a can of ice tea to a gun fight".

[Taitertots]

74. Defending himself against what?

No one is claiming that Zimmerman hit him first. How is he defending himself by striking first?

[uppityperson]

122. What evidence has come out to support your assertion Trayvon "striking first"?

Why do you assume that?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

181. Perhaps Zimmerman Isn't The Only "Profiler"

I wouls say a lot more but I'm trying to be nice.

[frylock]

130. trayvon didn't shoot first either..

how was zimmerman defending himself by shooting first?

[bigapple]

139. there

is some evidence that there was an altercation.

[frylock]

144. wow, no shit?

broken nose and bashed in head. yep, read all about it. didn't see any evidence in the police video though. go figure.

[bigapple]

147. it

was in the police report. Z was tended to at the scene.

[uppityperson]

153. Zimmy refused aid at the scene and that was put in a report later, not initially.

[frylock]

154. full service laundry too..

where. is. the. fucking. blood?

[bigapple]

156. cleaned up

maybe?

[frylock]

165. cleaned up blood from a broken nose and shooting a guy perched on his chest..

all in 30 minutes, or your money back! maybe not.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

171. Sounds Like OJ Getting Rid Of His Blood Stained Clothes

,

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. See Above. Rufus Answered It

The police dispatcher told Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon Martin. Remember, Zimmerman was not wearing a badge or uniform and it was dark. Maybe Trayvon though Zimmerman wanted to rape, rob, or kiill him. That's what Zimmerman thought Martin was up to. But Martin wasn't following him.

[Taitertots]

67. What is not to get?

Obviously, you don't believe Zimmerman's account. If it is true, than he is certainly not guilty.

Obviously, you have decided to believe Martin's parents and the Prosecutor.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. I Believe The Independent Evidence Which Points To His Guilt And Not His Uncorroborated Statements

Trayvon Martin had every right to be where he was and "stand his ground".
Zimmerman shot an unarmed man.
Zimmerman followed Trayvon, despite being asked not to
Zimmerman profileTrayvon and told the police dispatcher "these punks always get away."
Trayvon told his girlfriend he was being followed

[Taitertots]

73. None of those things would indicate that he is guilty

None of those things disproves any of Zimmerman's claims.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. Did You Expect Zimmerman To Just Say

"I put a cap in an unarmed black kid's chest, who was minding his own business, because he had a gold tooth, was inked, and wore a hoodie and was therefore suspicious." ?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. Murderers Always Make Stupid, Self Serving Claims Because Their Victims Can't Testify

[Taitertots]

78. Ok, now do you have any evidence that disproves any of his claims?

Specifically, that Martin struck first.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

79. We Have The Testimony Of His Girlfriend Where Trayvon Says He Is Being Stalked

At some point his stalker confronted him. Trayvon had every right to stand his ground.





on edit- Call me obtuse...Call me biased... Call me a rusher to judgement. I still don't get it.

Trayvon Martin was a guest of his father's girlfriend at her townhouse condominium in Sanford, Florida. He goes to the 7-11 to buy a bag of skittles and an Arizona Ice Tea. Some guy spots him and calls the police and says he looks suspicious and will follow him. What made him lool suspicious? His hoodie? His skin color? The police dispatcher asks him not to follow him. He rejects the advice and the next thing we know the kid is dead with a cap in his chest. And he was unarmed.


That smells.

[Taitertots]

84. You are incorrectly using the term "Stalked"

Nothing Zimmerman did qualifies as stalking.

Even if it did. It still wouldn't justify attacking a retreating Zimmerman from behind.

Are you really claiming that Martin should have attacked Zimmerman that night?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

89. Do You Have Any Independent Evidence That Zimmerman Was Retreating?

The only evidence no one has disputed is that Zimmerman shot an unarmed black kid in the chest after ignoring a police official*'s request not to follow him.





*Before we go around and around on this , a police dispatcher is a "police official" and his or her recommendations, suggestions, requests are the function of training for that position. Zimmerman had no affirmative obligation to follow his or her request not to follow Martin but if he did he wouldn't be in a jail cell crying himself to sleep and Trayvon would be preparing to take his SAT.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

95. I Guess It Depends On What The Meaning Of Is, Errrr, Stalk, Is

1

: to pursue quarry or prey stealthily

2

: to walk stiffly or haughtily

transitive verb


1

: to pursue by stalking


2

: to go through (an area) in search of prey or quarry <stalk the woods for deer>


3

: to pursue obsessively and to the point of harassment


Yes, Trayvon Martin told his girlfriend he was being stalked during their cell phone conversation and she told him to run. Maybe he should have just "assumed the position".

[Taitertots]

96. Zimmerman witnessed the events and nothing disproves his account n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

98. He Was An Actor In The Event.

If you think a guy who just shot an unarmed black kid who was minding his own business in the chest after stalking him , against the suggestion of a trained police dispatcher, is going to give a truthful account of what happened there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.

[Taitertots]

101. His actions never reached the legal definition of stalking

The suggestions of a dispatcher are totally irrelevant.
How is attacking someone minding your own business?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

106. How Is The Recommendation Of A Police Official Irrelevant ?

Especially when the rejection of his or her recommendation resulted in the death of an unarmed minor?

[bigapple]

109. for goodness sake

Was the police dispatcher a sworn officer?

[Taitertots]

110. Because you are under no obligation to follow their suggestions n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

173. If He Followed Their Suggestion There Would Be One Less Dead Black Kid

.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

190. Zimmy Wouldn't Be In A Jail Cell Crying Himself To Sleeep

And Trayvon would be taking his SAT right about now if he followed their suggestion.

[ProfessorGAC]

119. Man, Is That Weak

People being stalked, by the dictionary definition, do not need to understand the legal definition to feel threatened. Worse, you know that.

You're just parsing words in some misguided attempt to make a point that nobody here needs to read. We all get the presumption of innocence.

That's not what the OP is about. You knew that too. You're clearly just picking a fight.
GAC

[uppityperson]

124. +++++

[bigapple]

87. Travon had every right to stand his ground

only if he was reasonably in fear of grievous harm or death.

Was Zimmerman pursuing him with his weapon drawn? We don't know.

[Taitertots]

92. Was Martin riding a unicorn made of jelly beans? We don't know

Based on what we do know he had no right to attack Zimmerman.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

97. Do You Have Any Evidence Beside George Zimmerman's Testimony That Martin Attacked Him

The only independent evidence we have is he shot an unarmed black kid in the chest after stalking him.

[bigapple]

99. ok

stalking has to be repeated in nature. Once-off following is not stalking.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

102. Daniel Webster And His Successors Disagree With You

See post 95.

If I tell you to spend some time with me and watch what I do as in training I am inviting you to follow me.


If I follow you around late at night against your wishes I am stalking you.

[bigapple]

107. fortunately

Daniel Webster means squat in a court.

Terms like "murder", "stalking", "self-defense" have very precise legal definitions.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

111. Yes. And That's Why George Zimmerman Is Crying Himself To Bed At Night In A Seminole County Jail

And waiting to be tried for second degree murder.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

102. Daniel Webster And His Successors Disagree With You

See post 95.

If I tell you to spend some time with me and watch what I do as in training I am inviting you to follow me.


If I follow you around late at night against your wishes I am stalking you.

[uppityperson]

125. No, it doesn't need to be repeated. Once-off following can be stalking.

[Taitertots]

105. You are incorrectly calling his actions "stalking"

The only evidence you care about is that a black person was shot by a white man.

His testimony is perfectly valid evidence.

[uppityperson]

127. Zimmy's "testimony is perfectly valid evidence"? Seriously? A defendant's testimony is

evidence?

Seriously? I mean, seriously?

Testimony of a defendant is "perfectly valid evidence". Wow.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

174. We Should Just Let Every Defendant Go Because They All Or Almost All Say They Are Innocent..

.

[uppityperson]

183. You got it! Amazing, isn't it?

[uppityperson]

123. Ok, now do you have any evidence that proves any of his claims?

Specifically, that Martin struck first.

[ctaylors6]

80. I don't defend Zimmerman per se but

I believe the independent evidence should be presented at trial. I feel very strongly that information presented through the media is very different than "independent evidence" presented in a court of law.

I think it's highly unlikely that 100% of the pertinent evidence has been reported in the media. And of the evidence that's been in the media, I doubt it's completely accurate. I think that's especially true with witness evidence as opposed to say a DNA test result that leaked to the media.

I think that the facts you listed are probably true but to me they present a clear case why Zimmerman should have been arrested, not presumed guilty. (And that he should have been arrested right away, not after weeks.)

[ieoeja]

114. You lost me at "certainly not guilty".

Even if Zimmerman's account is true, losing a fight that you provoke is insufficient grounds for responding with lethal force.

And that "if" seems extremely unlikely based on the fact that Zimmerman claims the fight started while he was getting back into his vehicle, yet the killing occurred three houses away from his car and in the backyard.

[Taitertots]

115. What did Zimmerman do that gave Martin legal justification to attack him? n/t

[ieoeja]

116. "Provoke" and "legal justification" are two different things.

Zimmerman claimed he confronted Trayvon. Would you call "how's it going," confronting someone? No, you and Z would not. Z told the police he was going to confront him. He told the police he did confront him. He told *us* he confronted him. Z provoked a reaction.

Was the reaction legally justified? Again, assuming Z is being 100% truthful - everything I have written assumes Z is being 100% truthful - then, no, it was probably not. Congratulations. You now have a reason to arrest Trayvon.

If, you know, he weren't a fucking corpse.


Now that we are done discussing the Martin crime, can we please get back to discussing the Z crime? The one in which Z provokes a fight, loses, then proceeds to kill the other party a long way from where the fight took place (again, according to Z).

[bigapple]

118. but

if Zimmerman was reasonably afraid for his life when he shot Martin then it wasn't a crime.

[ieoeja]

121. I think I see where you're coming from.

You're talking about the absurdity of the Stand Your Ground law. Actually, I am pretty certain even that does not apply when you have to chase the guy 100 yards to kill him afterwards. I'm thinking that even the SYG law does not support the, "I was afraid he might come back sometime and kill me," defense.

On the other hand, at least one judge has already ruled that it is perfectly reasonable for a gangbanger to fear being killed by the member of a rival gang making it legal to kill them in preemptive self-defense. And racists may think it is perfectly reasonable to fear that some black man they get into a fight with is going to come back and kill them later.

However, I don't racism fits the legal definition of reasonable. So SYG should not apply in this instance.

[uppityperson]

129. What proof is there that Tray attacked him?Beyond his "testimony is perfectly valid evidence"

[frylock]

133. you don't know that martin attacked zimmerman..

where is your fucking evidence?

[frylock]

131. martin's parents, the prosecuter, and circumstantial evidence..

all zimmerman has is his ever-changing story. which do you choose to believe?

[bigapple]

134. ok

like how martin's mom initially said accident then just a few hours said whoops didn't mean that cold-blooded murder!

prosecutor who filed a half-assed affidavit?

circumstantial evidence like the police report stating Z was bleeding from his head with grass stains on his back? If it was murder two, why did Z call the police in the first place?

[uppityperson]

137. You mean when Trayvon's mom clarified what she meant by "accident" when she realized she wasn't

clear? Is that what you mean?

[frylock]

138. i've seen the video..

zimmerman didn't have a drop of blood on him. what the fuck does martin's mom's statement have to do with this? keep digging.

[bigapple]

141. you're the one

who mentioned Martin's parents.

[bigapple]

143. oh really

didn't he receive first aid at the scene? Would they have cleaned him up you think?

[frylock]

148. did they launder his shirt as well?

[uppityperson]

152. First aid responders do laundry? Wow. Ours don't. I've got to move to Florida

[bigapple]

160. hey look

/

you can see a big welt on Z's head.

[uppityperson]

163. I see a depression that looks old. No blood. No bandage. No welt.

[Solomon]

72. LOL. This thread attracted a few Zimmerman defenders.

Weak unrealistic arguments. It's funny watching them hold on as things develop, like videotapes showing no injuries but still arguing that he said his nose was broken and head bashed in. Pathetic.

[JNelson6563]

75. If it were their child.....

yeah, they'd be seeing it differently no doubt.

I have spoken to one who wanted to to do the benefit of the doubt business. I asked what if it were (name)? Suddenly there was no defense.

Funny how that works.

Julie--who believes Zimmerman is lucky is wasn't my kid he whacked 'caused he'd be dead already

[ZombieHorde]

100. He definitely looks really guilty to me,

but I know I am missing information. Being skeptical of other people's perception of events during a crisis is smart in my opinion.

I feel like he is guilty, but I don't know shit.

[Yo_Mama]

108. You're presuming that he profiled, stalked and confronted.

Until evidence to that effect is presented, that's a conclusion only, and there is some countervailing evidence against the idea that he was the exclusive or even perhaps the primary aggressor.

I don't find Zimmerman's story very plausible, but implausible things do happen.

The crummy charging affidavit has raised a lot of eyebrows:
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/4/15/51611/4068

More than that, I think a lot of people are relieved to know that this will be fully examined in a court of law (where it should be), and so they don't feel the need to judge it one way or another. Before the argument in the public's mind was more along the lines of "something's fishy here - this shouldn't be dropped!" With that I entirely agree.

There is no need for a court of public opinion because this is in the criminal justice courts.

[Skip Intro]

112. "Zimmerman Defender" seems an unfair term to me.

Reminds me of terms like "holocaust denier" or "climate change denier," and makes it seem like anyone who doesn't agree with the DU consensus on Zimmerman/Martin must be a despicable person who holds an indefensible opinion. That bugs me.

The truth is that the media, the blogosphere, and much of the public have tried and convicted Zimmerman. And he may be guilty of cold blooded murder. He may have followed Martin and attacked him. Or Martin may have attacked Zimmerman, and Zimmerman may have shot in self defense. I don't know what happened, and neither does anyone here.


It isn't defending him to be honest about that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

176. "Zimmerman Denial" Hasn't Reached The Level Of Holocaust Denial (Yet)

.

[Vattel]

180. well-said

[LaydeeBug]

117. It is easy to understand: they are RACIST, pure and simple.

Even though they will represent that 'some of their best friends are black'. Really.

[Iggo]

120. I get them.

[WillParkinson]

151. Presumed innocent in the court of law...

That's the only place that should matter. Your opinion and my opinion should have no bearing on anything. I refuse to find anyone guilty in the court of public opinion because I was not there, I have not heard all the arguments, I have seen none of the evidence that is to be presented.

Sorry, but I don't like to jump to conclusions based on emotion, I would prefer to deal with facts.

[bigapple]

161. thank you

jumping to conclusions is bad...who'd thunk?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

175. You Should Petition Skinner To Prohibit All Zimmerman Threads Since We Don't Have All The Facts

.

[WillParkinson]

178. For what reason?

People will always think what they want. They're entitled to discuss it. I just refuse to assign any kind of guilt until the facts and evidence are all accounted for.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

179. Based On The Evidence In The Public Domain The Profiling Aspect Gives It A Particularly Noxious Feel

And the profiling aspect emanates from Zimmerman's only ugly words.

[Quixote1818]

188. Hey, Bush was sure there were WMD's in Iraq and I give him the benefit of doubt

It's disgusting how many people come down so hard on him, especially all the people who lost their lives who think he is a war criminal when for all we know Bush really was acting in self defense. The Iraq was was simply us standing our ground.